Ford Five Hundred/Mercury Montego

evandro · December 2005

I feel that with the additional noise generated that I should expect an equivalent amount of "go".

Welcome to the world of CVT transmissions. :P

Yet, many have stated here that the A6 is a bit dumb on the shift points. Hopefully, the new A6 transmission designed with GM will be better, but apparently only in 2007.

avanti · December 2005

ANT14 - if you are out there - can the "spats" (aka mudguards) from the 2006 Montego (running change along with deletion of bodyside moldings and addition of color-keyed rocker panels) be used on the 2005 model? I see they are part of a TSB kit for the paint chipping. Can you get the part numbers for the spats? I've been unable to get them so far... Thanks!

boodah · December 2005

Yeah... during midweek is when I pretty much accepted the CVT for what it was and had a good time with the vehicle. *Although, in the back of my mind I just kept wondering about it*

But curious enough though was just how smooth that tranny was during shifting. Very smooth... And one more concern is just how long the CVT will hold up as I don't, nor do any of my associates, have any experience with it.

bruneau1 · December 2005

I really like the action of the CVT in the Ford. It is superior to the current Ford 6spd. However, I too wonder about the future. While there is nothing wrong with the design, it is unclear what will happen to the CVT when Ford gets its new Ford-GM 6spd in the fall. It seems that most of the reported problems have been in the AWD models among the 500, Montego, Freestyle trio. Hopefully Ford will use the CVT in other vehicles so that we are not left with an obsolete transmission.

lweiss · December 2005

I am in the market for a car to replace my Volvo S70, have owned Ford Tauruses in the past (good cars, last one a 1994), but I just can't get excited about the Ford 500- still looks like a taxicab wannabe. Now the new Ford Fusion looks exciting and a better image. I'll bet the Fusion outsells the 500 bigtime- am I right?

johnclineii · December 2005

It's too early to tell, but the Fusion is doing quite well...

The Five Hundred will be refreshed for Model Year 2oo8.

Coming from a VOLVO, I wouldn't think you would be very concerned about styling....

Know, too, that the Five Hundred has an exemplary safety record, and indeed has done better than most VOLVO's in crash testing (which only makes sense, since it is a newer design)

sullyak · December 2005

Does anyone have an opinion on whether or not I should purchase a new 2006 vs a new 2005? There are some pretty good deals on 2005's in my area but I am a bit nervous about purchasing last year's model. Any advise is appreciated.
Thanks

micweb · December 2005

The most urgent mechanical/electrical updates during the first year of a new model introduction are made "on the fly" before the end of the model year, but still a LOT of updates to fix bugs are saved by manufacturers until the second year of the model, when the assembly lines stop and restart. Also, sometimes it takes feedback from the field before they can spot first year glitches, and this doesn't tally up until later in the first model year, too later to make a running change. In essence, first year buyers are often the "beta testers" for a completely new model car.

That having been said, I'd say the first four months of production are probably the most problematic, since the assembly line is still learning to assemble the cars.

Check the label, inside the door jamb, on the 2005 you are interested in. That's where the manufacturer information and build date are required to be placed. I would look for an assembly date of April or May of 2005 or later, and really, really worry about an '04 build date.

Better yet, just hammer them for a deal on an '06. They have more cars than customers right now. The first year of any car is always buggy. It's not like you saw the car, fell in love with it, and can't wait for the much-less buggy second year of production. The second year is here. It's not like you are buying the de-bugged second year instead of a third year.

Finally, one of the personal finance magazines said that end of the year savings are illusory unless you keep the car for more than five years - what you save on the purchase price, you lose on the immediate one year depreciation, since the new model is out, and depreciation is tied to model year, not purchase date. You are actually better off buying an early '06, you get to drive it for a year before the model change in '07 depreciates it more.

johnclineii · December 2005

Depreciation is only a factor if one trades, sells or wrecks the vehicle (people often forget about that last one).

I have 51,000 completely trouble free miles on my Five Hundred. And it was built in September 04...

mschmal · December 2005

The decision you make should be based on how long you intend to keep the car.

Assuming the 05 is $3k or so less than the 06 and
if you keep a car for 7 or 8 years and put 12k miles a year on it, 7 years from now an 06 Five hundred with 84k miles on it will mostly like have a trade value within a $1k of the trade value of a comparable 05 with 84k on it. (the 05 will be considered low milage for that year thus trade higher than a typical 05 which will have 8 years worth or 96k miles on it).

This senerio leaves you with $2k to your advantage if you buy the 05.

If you flip your cars every three years the absolutely buy the 06. In thee years, an 06 will still probably be worth $3k more than the 05 with similar milage.

Just INSIST on a BRAND NEW BATTERY if the car you buy was sitting for over 90 days. Ask to see the invoice which will have the ship and build dates on it.

INSIST on this the Battery can be replaced by the dealer under warrenty at no cost other than inconvenience to them.

You might also ask them to change the oil as well.
Mark

Mark.

mikeroch · December 2005

Hi,

It seems the consensus is an update for the five hundred for the 2008 model year.

Other than an engine and possible transmission change (for AWD cars?!), and freshening of the exterior (right?), any ideas as to what else might be happening ????

My wife and I really like the current car, but if the 2008 changes (especially the engine/transmission upgrade and hopefully accompanying elimination of the current car's noise that accompanies acceleration..), are significant enough, we may just want to wait a couple more years before buying.

Thanks,
Michael

mschmal · December 2005

Do a 24 month lease!

Mark

mikeroch · December 2005

Yes - that's an interesting option Mark.

Alternatively, I guess we could buy and trade in also...but the depreciation might be substantive, given that we would be trading in for a freshened model.

jaxs1 · December 2005

The depreciation will be high either way, which would equal high lease payments on the 24 month lease. The advantage of the lease is that the depreciation cost will be set in writing in advance as long as you do not go over the included mileage and keep the car looking good cosmetically so the risk of the car depreciating more than expected is not your risk. However, they are likely to be conservative in the contracted residual value so the risk of that happening to them is low.

mikeroch · December 2005

True, but also the interest rate on the (any) lease is higher (as expected) than for a financed purchase, so that the effective cost of a lease is generally greater than for a purchase, assuming all else is equal, over the same term. The advantage of the lease, of course, is that if it's a walk away, and you do, then you don't really have to worry about any actual residual or depreciation thereon (not to mention having to purchase and re-sell the car). Alternatively, with a purchase, the interest rate is less, but of course the payments are greater (and include both financed federal and provincial sales taxes here in Canada) and because you've actually paid for (off) the full price of the car, then one does have to deal with the actual depreciation to the end of, say, the same term as a lease (i.e. loan fully paid), which of course would be significant given the new model year upgrades....and then your "loss" would be even higher.....

audia8q · December 2005

Heard a rumor about the return of the SHO....Ford 500 with the Yamaha 4.4l V8 which is going into the Volvo XC-90 and other Volvo products. Have you heard anything??

jaxs1 · December 2005

That was kind of hard to follow, but even though new standard equipment or restyling may come with the 2008 models, there is no reason for the depreciation loss to be higher on a purchase.
They are fully aware that updated models are coming out when they set the future residual values and will compensate when setting those values.
You have to calculate it on a case by case basis to see if the lease incentives offered at the time are better than the purchase incentives offered (assuming you are sure you will be able to stay within the mileage limits of a lease).

micweb · December 2005

The Focus is a much higher volume car for Ford, but they haven't made any significant appearance changes since it came out in 1999. They "promised" a refreshening for 2005, but I can barely see the differences, and I love cars. So I doubt they will change much on the Five Hundred, a lower volume car, externally, for 2008.

The whole "buzz" about an early update on the Five Hundred came due to initial "soft" sales (due to its bland appearance, I have heard! it screams "AARP").

But if sales pick up without a refreshening, or if Ford tightens their fiscal belt, I really doubt they will do much with the Five Hundred to "refresh" it in '07.

Plus, I'm not so sure making it look like a "big" Fusion is such a good idea to start with! (About on par with DC making the new Caliber replacement for the Neon look more like a Ram truck by putting a big grill on it, ha ha.)

Keep in mind the Crown Victoria lumbers forward with hardly any freshening. And the Five Hundred is "sort of" a replacement for the Crown Victoria.

That having been said, a better reason for taking timing into consideration with the Five Hundred, is that in my personal opinion the drivetrain on the Five Hundred is in limbo.

Although the acceleration tests indicate the 3.0 is MORE than adequate in this vehicle (8.5 or 8.9 0-60), complaints are widespread about the lack of a 3.5, particularly in a vehicle this size, and so a 3.5 should be in the Five Hundred soon, if only to stop the complaints. One is already slated for the Fusion, so it would be easy to modify for the Five Hundred.

The transmission is also in limbo - Ford presently buys the Japanese made Aisan 6 speed, but unlike most things Japanese, Japanese automatic transmissions have been under fire in the past few years, in both Hondas and Camrys. To make things worse (or maybe they learned their lesson and things are better, the Japanese industry seems to have a faster learning curve than Detroit) 6 speed transmissions are very new and therefore very much "cutting (or "bleeding") edge." The alternative CVT automatic transmission is probably doomed due to a lack of marketplace acceptance and unproven durability in high torque applications like this. Finally, Ford has its own, internally designed (with Chevy) 6 speed automatic in the wings, which, at least from a design standpoint, is getting a few good reviews, but once again is unproven in the field. The odds are this new home-grown transmission will show up as early as 2007, just when Ford and VW and others are finding out just how durable or quirky the Aisin 6 speeds are.

Hate to say it, but the 4 speeds from GM and DC look better and better to me, at least until there are some serious owner miles on the new 5 and 6 speeds; the DC 5 speed in the LX cars (300, Magnum, Charger) may be an exception because they are based on proven Mercedes technology, but on the other hand, Mercedes almost always implements designs that assume a certain degree of skilled maintenance, not always found in American service centers, and the translation from high-cost Mercedes to "tweaked to be simpler and cheaper" American product might make the DC 5 speeds as much as question mark at the other brands.

So hey, getting an '06 with the current Aisin 6 speed and current 3.0 and current sheet metal, might be as good as waiting, if not better - Aisin's 5 speed designs have been in Hondas and Camrys for a while, at least, and I haven't hear complaints; their 6 speed has been in the VW's and Fords for a year now. The 3.0 from Ford is solid as a rock. By '07 and '08, you may have to face double-trouble - both a new motor (3.5) and a new transmission (home-grown 6 speed). All of which may be perfectly fine, but I subscribe to the general rule of "new is unproven, and not worth it except for a specialty vehicle which has other qualities I strongly desire.)

I think the present Five Hundred is one of the best vehicles out there, bar none. It is a Volvo in Ford clothing (at least if you get the safety package with side air bags.) This is actually a great year for a Five Hundred. I'd be driving one now if the current promotions (Red Tag etc.) weren't such drivel.

evandro · December 2005

Very interesting observations. I'd just add a couple of remarks.

Actually, DCX autos are quite inefficient, whose most publicized evidence was the 300M lagging competitors with the same power and weight.

On A5 in the Camry and Accord, there have been many complaints about the V6 engines of these cars, particularly the more powerful Honda, chewing these transmissions.

johnclineii · December 2005

* The 2oo8 refreshing of the Five Hundred is locked in. If you think that a big Fusion look is not the way to go, you are probably going to be very disappointed in the changes.

* The 3.5 is also very much a go.

* The 6 speed Aisin trannies are also going, as in bye-bye. By the way, Aisin is a Toyota affiliate.

* The CVT may also not be offered in the Five Hundred/Montego, or if it is, if will probably not be offered with the new engine.

* Don't assume the Panther series (CV, GM) is going to continue. It may not.

And that's the way it is, or so it seems right now. Plans do change, but these are pretty much locked in (except the last one...)

ANT14 · December 2005

"Heard a rumor about the return of the SHO....Ford 500 with the Yamaha 4.4l V8 which is going into the Volvo XC-90 and other Volvo products. Have you heard anything??"

I heard that rumor before the 500 was released, ironically it's not based on anything. The reumor stemmed because of the "Oh because the 500 and XC90 share platforms, they will be able to stick the Yamaha V8 into the 500"... Hmm, well yes and no, let's disect it.

From the A-pillar forward, the 500 lacks some of the space needed to make the 4.4L along with it's 6A, fit. Works well in the XC90 because of it's height, but not for the 500.

Then we have allocation. How many V8's can be produced to not only fullfill the XC90s order, but those of the 500 which will be more widely produced, or be capped at a low 5K units yearly.

Then we have cost. The 4.4L V8, 6A requires the next generation AWD unit from Haldex, which is used on the XC90, while the 500 uses the prior generation. SO add that newer AWD system, into the mix. And let's not even factor the suspension enchancements required.

Your looking at an additional $6-8K on the sticker to make it viable. The last generation Taurus SHO with it's 3.4L DOHC V8 brought something interesting into the market. It was the only (if I remember correctly) DOHC V8 engine in the marketplace, under a $30K pricetag of the time.

By the time all is said and done, your looking at a $36-38K 500 SHO which might make it a hard sell.

Essentially, one of the next Lincoln sedans will solve the "SHO" rumor in other words

JOHN,

Last document I read, stated Panthers to die off a bit before by 2012. Granted, plans can change at anytime. If at that time the Panther still produce the rediculous profit they do now, then obviously Ford might keep them around a bit longer

avanti · December 2005

ANT14 - can the "spats" (aka mudguards) from the 2006 Montego (running change along with deletion of bodyside moldings and addition of color-keyed rocker panels) be used on the 2005 model? I see they are part of a TSB kit for the paint chipping. Can you get the part numbers for the spats? I've been unable to get them so far... Thanks!

ANT14 · January 2006

You can probably get it from Flatratetech They could probably give you a quicker answer than I could. I'm on a long vacation now.

avanti · January 2006

I'll give it a try - thanks.

mikeroch · January 2006

Hi,

Can anyone let me know their opinion and/or experience with respect to the differences in "engine/transmission" noise between the CVT and the 6 spd transmissions?! I have heard that the 6 speed might be quieter, and thus perhaps purchasing the limited in fwd instead of awd might be a good solution to our "noise problem" with the car....

Also, what is the difference in acceleration "capability" between the two transmissions?

Also, if anyone can post pictures of a limited "pebble" (tan) leather interior with the Nav and DVD options, if possible, or a link to same, that would be greatly appreciated....(preferably burgundy and blue exteriors also, if possible).

Thanks again!!

bruneau1 · January 2006

I have driven several 6spd and CVT models, and I own a Freestyle with CVT. The CVT feels a little slower off line, but is more responsive once under way. The CVT is constantly adjusting so the changes are not nearly as perceptible as in the 6spd which is shifting constantly to maintain power. I find the noise changes of the 6spd more distracting. In traffic, the CVT is much nicer. When climbing hills, the CVT does a terrific job with no lurches, or thumpy downshifts. This cannot be said for the 6spd. The question remains as to what will happen to the CVT when Ford gets its new GM-Ford 6spd. No burgundy or blue out there.

brucelinc · January 2006

Does anyone know what percentage of 500/Montegos are being sold with AWD?

No question that AWD adds weight, cost, friction and complexity. The result is higher fuel consumption and slower acceleration. That being said, those who bought AWD must have had a good reason. I am not knocking your choice since you know your needs/wants better than I, but I am curious about the reason you chose AWD, particularly if you live south of the snow belt.

Comments appreciated!

barnstormer64 · January 2006

I got the AWD for two reasons:

1) It was the simplest way to assure that I got the CVT instead of the regular automatic transmisssion.

2) I wanted it to be identical to my Freestyle, which also had the AWD

I live near Houston (is that far enough south for ya? LOL)

AWD is useful in more than just snowy situations. For example, the roads can get awfully slick down here in a rainstorm.

As far as acceleration, I'm pretty sure that the reviews I saw actually showed BETTER acceleration with the AWD. Not sure if I'm remembering correctly, if the tests were comparable, or why that would be, though.

brucelinc · January 2006

Thanks, Barnstormer. Yep, Houston is far enough south! Your points make sense. I like the idea of CVT, too. I don't know if it has a future but the concept seems right on the money.

Strangely, here in the frozen tundra of Minneapolis, I don't know anyone with an AWD 500, and I don't see many in dealer inventories here.

gene_v · January 2006

The prices just went back to MSRP at my local dealer web-site. When is the next rebates coming, expecially on the 500 and Montego? They are not moving in St Louis.

scott1256 · January 2006

Actually the Five Hundred is selling very well right now.

December 05 sales were up 45% over December 04.

Ford has a great design on their hands in the Five Hundred.

jaxs1 · January 2006

I don't see that many on the road.
More than likely Ford is restricting production to prevent oversupply and need for big discounting.

slider7 · January 2006

I've seen the Nav on a Merlot&Pebble Limited. I think it overpowers the center-console and for two grand, I'd rather buy a map and spend the dough on a Hawaiian vacation, otherwise the Dealer will go in my place. Does anyone know theft stats on car Nav systems? Read at least 15 pages into this forum, you'll find valuable and knowledgeable opinions about CVT and CVT/AWD. I read enough to run straight for the Black and Tan Limited FWD 6-spd, moonroof, TC, and safety package. Anyone noticed that the passenger door window frames are gloss black on the black exterior 500's and all other colors have a flat black vinyl tape-over and air bubbles?

mschmal · January 2006

New Nav system is way easier to use then the old one. But get ready to live with finger prints.

Incidently, GPS navigation with voice instructions is availabe on some Nextel cellies.

Mark

bruneau1 · January 2006

Nearly two thousand extra for a navigation system on a 500 is a bit ridiculous. But I guess everyone has to offer one

fsmmcsi · January 2006

It appears that Ford will finally have the lineup they need 18 to 24 months from now - the Five Hundred / Montego with revised styling and the quiet and smooth new 3.5 engine and 6-speed transmission, the Lincoln MKS with the 4.4 V8 and loads of fancy features, the new CUVs, and the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr, also with the new engine and transmission.

As for navigation, I just received our new IBM/Lenovo X40 laptop (1.6 GHz Pentium 4, 40 GB hard disk, and 1.5 GB main memory). With Delorme mapping software, a GPS antenna, and an EDGE cellular modem for internet access on the Cingular network(live traffic maps, everything else) the total cost is about $2,800, and it does radically more than a built-in navigation system.

mschmal · January 2006

I said this before but the finger prints on the screen totally grosses me out and i'm not a neat person at all.

Mark.

mikeroch · January 2006

Well, we've decided (99%) that it's a Five Hundred for us.

Limited, Nav, DVD and safety pkg, and Remote Start and Voice activation/blue tooth (i.e. Fully loaded).

Only remaining choices are exterior colour - Merlot (burgundy) or the Dark Blue Pearl (blue), and FWD or AWD.

We drove a FWD (SEL) on Saturday and it seemed much quieter than the AWD... We'll probably drive both versions again before final purchase decision.

Question - Is the Dark Blue Pearl very dark? We've been told it looks almost like black from "far" away... I did see a Merlot on the street near the dealer and it looked fantastic. Any comments on the blue versus merlot? (Unfortunately, none of the area dealers here have either colour in stock to see in person....).

Thanks!!

dlang · January 2006

Hi Forum,

Times up and I have to either buyout my leased 2003 Sable LS with only 17000 miles for $10500 or get another car. While I've read that the Montego is the Sable replacement, looking at just specs, the Milan seems a better car. It has slightly more front legroom than the Sable, while the Montego has almost an inch less. The Milan is not much less on headroom, hiproom and other specs than the Sable. The Montego gives almost 3 more inches for rear legroom though. The newer Milan engine has higher HP and RPM while the Montego is about the same as the Sable. The Milan has 6 speed auto transmission while the Sable only has 4.

Generally, looking thru the Mercury site, the Montego seems "old" while the Milan seems "new" and "hip".

I really like my Sable, especially the Mach audio, and the new Audiophile option from what I read is lacking, but it doesn't pay financially to buy the 2003 Sable at $10500 plus a $1350 Extended warranty from Ford for 6yr/60000 when I can get the Milan Premier for $295/month lease.

Also, my Sable is column shift tranmission with fold down bench seat. Are any models still made this way or is everything now center console?

Any ideas and experience from Sable owners?? Thanks!

gene_v · January 2006

"the Milan seems a better car. It has slightly more front legroom than the Sable, while the Montego has almost an inch less."

There it is, another criticism of the drivers legroom of the Montego( thus the 500 also).

The large backseat legroom and large trunk do not make up for lack of space of the front driver and passenger legroom.

bruneau1 · January 2006

Drive the Milan and the Montego on the same day. I did that and here are my observations: the Milan seems a little more sporty if you like that, but the Montego rides better and feels more substantial because it is. Seat height is more comfortable in the Montego and overall there is much more room. Remember their engines are the same Duratech with different tuning. I have a Taurus and a Freestyle and I would go for the Montego. But this is a matter of personal taste and only you can make that decision.

johnclineii · January 2006

Of the Milan and the Montego, one has a much better crashtest result from the IIHS than the other...

They really are totally different cars. Only you can decide what it is you want...

fsmmcsi · January 2006

If you have $10,500 cash, it seems like an excellent price for what is, at 17,000 miles, essentially a new car, especialy if you like it.

The Fusion / Milan / Zephyr feel larger in the front seating area than the Five Hundred / Montego to me, especially since they have more footwell space, a narrower center console, and a telescoping steering wheel.

A column shifter and 40-20-40 front seat are available on the Chevrolet Impala, Buick Lucerne, and Cadillac DTS. Back at Ford, the Crown Victoria, Grand Marquis, and Town Car also still offer a column shifter, but they have the poor ride and lack of good handling which goes with their solid rear axles. The Impala is the only one which also offers a back seat which folds down, and it is an unusually nice design, giving a flat floor from the back of the trunk to the back of the front seats.

evandro · January 2006

Remember their engines are the same Duratech with different tuning.

Actually, the difference is more than just different tuning, the Fusion's has VVT but not the 500's.

slider7 · January 2006

Has anyone experienced "piston slap" on start up in their brand new Fords this winter? Some Avalon owners are! :P In the long run, might be glad I didn't wait for the Duratech 35 that might come in 2008. We'll see what Bill Ford has to say on January 23rd.

badgerfan · January 2006

Just what does piston slap in Toyota Avalons have to do with Ford?

I have not heard of a piston slap issue on of any Ford engines in recent history-say the last 20 years or so. None on my Duratech equipped 2000 Taurus which is nearly the same engine as in the Five Hundred.

gene_v · January 2006

Isn't it rediculous that we have to wait until 2008 for the Duretec 35. Hyundai is running circles around
Ford with their v6's. They better get it in gear.
I'm a ford person but getting upset with the slow death of Ford.

revhigh · January 2006

slider7 · January 2006

Manners! Glad no one so far has had issues.

alpha01 · January 2006

What are you talking about? The Milan hasnt been tested by the IIHS? Nor has a standard Montego w/o side curtains...

~alpha

Ford Five Hundred/Mercury Montego

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