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Mercedes 380--450--560 SLs

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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well it's a gray market car and that stigmatizes it. Some of the gray market conversion work that was done was pretty awful, so people are wary. The value of a car has nothing to do with its merits in many cases. But I don't think it's worth LESS than most 450SLs, which aren't worth all that much anyway. I suppose you could peg it to the early V8 SLs in value, with their cleaner bumpers, etc.

    But you're right, the 107s will never be worth what a Pagoda is worth---Pagodas are now perhaps 4 or 5 times as valuable as a 107 and soon to be even more so.

    Gray market cars are never an easy sell.
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,169
    I'd agree a 107 is a better daily driver or highway cruiser than a pagoda...it's a whole degree more modern in every way. I would think a nice 280SL with history and no needs should be worth more than the relatively gutless 380SL anyway, and some years of 450SL are a little troublesome, so those should worth less too. The prices on the cars are so low right now though, it might not be a huge difference. Style always beats substance in the old car value world.

    The Euro bumpers and lights really can clean a car up. A 300SL (1986+, that is) would be an interesting one to have too, with the smooth and sturdy M103 under the hood.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The most valuable of the W107s are the 350SL followed by the last 560SLs. I doubt you could get 350SL or 560SL money for a gray market 280SL but you know you have to judge every used car on its own merits. Certainly an over the top restored 280SL gray market would bring more than a ratty 350SL.
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,169
    If I had my choice of a 107, I would get a 560SL and give it Euro bumpers and lights. A 5 speed 280SL would be pretty cool too. I think I have only seen a couple 350SLs before...one was rebadged as a 450SL when young, to appear as the newer model.
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    texasestexases Member Posts: 10,708
    Was the US 350SL equipped with the 4.5l engine, as stated in Wikipedia?
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,169
    I believe all of the official 350SL imports had that engine, yes. The 3.5 was only available in NA in the late 280SE coupe/cabrios I believe, and also in some 108/109 sedans, which are uncommon with that engine.
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    stanleysteamerstanleysteamer Member Posts: 16
    I finally found a reproduction manual for my 1981 380SL. All the pictures show 4 headlights. Mine has only two headlights with glass covers. Wondering why the difference? I was also told that mine may be a grey market car, can someone explain what that means? Thanks
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    burdawgburdawg Member Posts: 1,524
    A grey market car is a car that was imported from Europe by a private citizen. Depending on the era it was brought in and the where it entered the country some modifications may have been done to meet US standards.
    What kind of bumpers does it have? If it's an 81' and doesn't have the impact resistant bumpers (the ones that stick way out and compress in minor accidents) then it's for sure a European model. There's other ways to tell, but to me for that era the bumpers are the easiest.
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    stanleysteamerstanleysteamer Member Posts: 16
    Mine does not have the bumpers that stick way out, that's why I liked the looks.
    How can I tell if I have a double timing chain? Can't see enough thru the oil fill hole. Do I need to take off a valve cover?
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    freshairfiendfreshairfiend Member Posts: 28
    If you have the Euro 380SL and it was converted to US environmental standars properly, you have a gem. The Euro 380SL had 204 hp as opposed to 155, but not many were brought in as the US version was readily available. Most of the grey market cars were either 280SL's or 500's. I'm not sure whether or not the Euro cars had the same timing chain problem but I would think it likely
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,169
    If you run your VIN through this it should give you all of the information:

    http://old.mbclub.ru/mb/vin/?lng=eng

    Chances are nobody would convert both the lights and bumpers, so I am certain you have a grey market car, and a very uncommon one.

    The 380 engines in all forms have the timing chain issue...I wouldn't know how to tell other than to have a shop take a look. I don't think that engine received a dual setup until the end of its production run.
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    stanleysteamerstanleysteamer Member Posts: 16
    Thanks for the information. These cars are a rarity here in the rural midwest. This car had been setting for about 4 years and someone had stole the electric fuel pump, cutting the lines and wires. I have replaced the missing parts, got it running, put on a new soft top and did a lot of cleaning. I have only driven the car a short distance, but it sure does want to go! Maybe it is the higher HP engine? Haven't got the AC figured out yet, don't really need it anyway. Plans are to only use the car some in summer with top down. The car shows about 83,000 miles.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yes don't even bother to fix the AC, it is useless even when it's working perfectly. The Germans weren't very good at AC back then. People have re-designed them to work much better, but it's a lot of custom work and $$$.

    You'd best check out the timing chain question and get it resolved. If that chain lets go, engine rebuilds are a mere $15,000.
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    stanleysteamerstanleysteamer Member Posts: 16
    So much for a AC, will plan to run with top down. Will plan to pull a valve cover before much driving to check timing chain. I assume sprokets and double chain are available?
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well here's where gray market cars get dicey. Sometimes the parts are compatible with USA parts supply, no problem, and sometimes they are unique to European cars only. This is one reason gray market cars are less valuable than their USA counterparts. I'm sure a good independent Mercedes shop has dealt with this issue before. The dealer is probably clueless about old cars like this.
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,169
    The conversion to dual chains is a common procedure and I am certain there are kits available. I don't think there are many differences in the Euro vs NA versions of this engine other than emissions junk. Does it have a smog pump or cats etc?

    Sounds like you can do work yourself, that's good...I would strongly advise against taking such a car to a MB dealer. They likely won't have a clue about it...heck, my local dealer thought my C43 was a Euro car because they had never seen one before when I stopped in to buy a small part...they sold it new! A good indy mechanic is a best friend of the MB owner who can't or doesn't want to turn a wrench.
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    stanleysteamerstanleysteamer Member Posts: 16
    Working on the MB is not a problem. The closest MB dealer is 165 miles, but I would not want to take a car there for repair. Since retirement I have focused on my antique car hobby. We belong to several antique car groups and like to do national tours. I have a fairly complete shop and have restored several cars.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Then you're fine. Get a workshop manual, as there are sometimes little 'traps' in Benz repair.
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,169
    You are just the person who should own that car then ;) - you can do your own work. I hope it works out to be a good relationship.

    I have a ream of period MB info, and I have been looking into that engine. It appears the Euro and NA spec 3.8s are not exactly the same. Here's some info I found:

    Euro bore and stroke - 92x71.8mm

    NA bore and stroke - 88x77.9mm - the longer stroke to lower emissions.

    Euro cars had 9.0-9.4:1 compression ratios, where the NA car had 8.3:1

    I don't know the entirety of parts this might impact.

    I am a big fan of 1980s MB, especially the large sedans and coupes.
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    burdawgburdawg Member Posts: 1,524
    The cam timing could also be different. I'm not sure about 380's but 280's had offset woodruff keys for the cam gears to vary the timing.
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    stanleysteamerstanleysteamer Member Posts: 16
    I would sure appreciate it if you could e-mail me copies of the shop manual showing the valve timing and anything about an off-set key. I have not determined if I have a single chain, but am guessing that is what I have. Using a mirror and light thru the oil cill hole, I can see the chain, but can't tell if it is single or double. Looks like a #250 on the sprocket, does that tell you anything? Maybe the shop manual will also show all items needed to make the change to a double chain. Thnaks.
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,169
    Sadly I don't have a shop manual for that car, I have never owned one of those. My engine data comes from period magazine articles.

    However, some people on MB specific forums freely share their manuals, so I am certain someone there can give you everything you need and more.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Picture of Dual Timing Chain

    HERE
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    stanleysteamerstanleysteamer Member Posts: 16
    Thnaks for the pictures and information on the single chain. I am going to pull one of the valve covers to see what I have.
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    stanleysteamerstanleysteamer Member Posts: 16
    Good news!!! I have the double chain. With 83,000+ miles, I should be good for a long time. Thanks to everyone who helped me with this. I am looking forward to next summer for some top down driving.
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    ny14337ny14337 Member Posts: 16
    I have a 1986 380SL convertible (grey market car) that I am looking to sell. I live in Long Island, NY. It has been in my family since my dad bought it in 1986. The car has approximately 120,000 miles. It's red with a tan interior and black soft top. I also have the hard top. It's in very nice shape except for two spots where my father for some unknown reason decided to use a power washed to try and clean it. Needless to say, he damaged the paint in two spots.

    I am looking to sell the car and I was wondering if anyone has any idea on how much I should be listing it for?

    Thanks in advance,

    Mike
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Gray market cars are worth somewhat less but the general range, in "real dollars", and in Nov. 2008, for clean trouble free cars would be $7,500 to $12,500 IMO. Depends how badly this paint is screwed up and where the damage is. That could cost you a couple thousand discount.
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    burdawgburdawg Member Posts: 1,524
    Also, was it used during the winter? If so, any signs of rust?
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    texasestexases Member Posts: 10,708
    I assume you have all the maintenance records - a one-owner with complete and correct maintenance records will have an edge in today's terrible market. Any chance you could wait until spring to sell?
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Good point. These V8 SLs are really hard to unload unless they are either a) pristine or b) ridiculously cheap. The ones in the middle need a favorable economic climate, good weather, realistic pricing, and reasonable gas prices or they aren't going anywhere but back in your garage.
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    ribrkribrk Member Posts: 1
    Hi. I have an identical fuel pressure issue with an 81 380 SL. I was just wondering if you ever solved your problem.
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    stanleysteamerstanleysteamer Member Posts: 16
    In my case, the problem seems to have corrected itself. I have not driven the car very far, waiting for spring. I have started it a number of times with no problems. I can only assume that there may have been some air in the fuel system. I did remove the gasket from the gas cap. This took care of the pressure build up in the gas tank. I don't know if this is the correct thing to do or not, but starts and runs ok, No slow starting and no rough idle. Will know more when I get it out next spring.
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    stanleysteamerstanleysteamer Member Posts: 16
    Just started driving my 1981 380 SL that I purchased last year. It seems that the shift points are harsh and at fairly hight RMM, is this normal. Aso I have an indicator light on the dash that looks like it might be for brakes. Can't locate any problems with either the parking or service brakes. Anyone know where to look?
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The transmissions in these early Mercedes do tend to be harsh, yes. If you are comparing to a modern American or Japanese car, they are nothing like them. What do you mean by "high" RPM?

    The dash light could be low brake fluid or just a stuck float indicator or bad level switch in the brake fluid reservoir. (I forget which you have) Check the fluid level, and unscrew the cap.

    You should really have an owner's manual for this car as well.
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    bgruberbgruber Member Posts: 8
    The garage I take mind too took the wire off the brake sensor. I think it was about 18 years ago. The light went out. I wouldn't rush into doing anything other than having the transmission fuild changed with the shifting. I have a 73 since 82. It left me sitting on Sunday and I haven't heard from the garage yet.
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    shorty21shorty21 Member Posts: 1
    Does anyone have an idea of what a 1972 Mercedes Benz 450 SL convertible with 57000 miles and in good condition might be worth today?? Have been unable to find this information out.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Depends very strongly upon the overall condition of the car. We'd have to know:

    1. how's the paint---mint, very good, pretty okay, obviously has needs

    2. what's not working? AC? ,etc

    3. How's the seats, console, dashboard?

    4. Hows the convertible top? (that's $1500 bucks right there)

    Depending on your answers the price could be $4000 or $15000.

    Really nice ones go in the $10,000--$15000 range. If yours is pristine and the mileage is provable and the color is good (hopefully not brown), you could even break that ceiling by a bit.
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,169
    If it's really pristine, it's a good one as Shifty says - much more desirable as that's a very early car. I'd be curious to know the last digits of the proto-VIN number, in the first couple thousand cars no doubt.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    If it's a European car, with kilometer speedo and gauges, that's a minus in value.
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,169
    Yeah, that's true, and if it is a grey market car exported in the 80s, who knows how it was neglected early in its life.

    IIRC the first 107s came to the states in 72, so that could bode well. However, it seems the 450SL badge was not officially used until 73 (?)...that was the weird time when the cars were badged 350SL no matter the engine, and then apparently many dealers changed the badging later.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    In any event, unless the car is very tasty-clean inside and out, and has no "needs", it's a hard sell right now because the car has a reputation for expensive repairs and is very hungry on gas (as you no doubt know!).

    But a super clean, low miles example will always find a buyer who is willing to pay top dollar.

    With the 450SL there are just two kinds---the 'best' and the 'rest' of them.
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,169
    A harmless Sunday driver kind of car, although it is hard to argue against spending a few grand more and getting a 560SL, unless one is somehow interested in having a very early car.
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    bwaterslbwatersl Member Posts: 1
    Mr. Shiftright
    I am considering a pre 2003 Mercedes SL. I’ve tried to absorb all the info on the forums so here is what I think (newbie to old cars) I’ve learned:
    With a reasonable budget (less than 15k) the 560SL is the best (vs older or newer), medium mileage (less than 100k), check service records, and have it inspected by a certified mechanic. So here are my questions?
    I want a daily use, fun to drive, reliable car. What is the better model, engine and year to look for? What specific history should I review for before I conclude it’s worth paying for an inspection? i.e. timing change replaced?, a/c changed, flushed what? Can you give me the top 5 problems?
    Would it be better to stretch and get late 90’s SL?
    Any other advice or reference sites about this type of purchase would be appreciated.
    Thanks
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'm sure everyone here has some good advice for you--my two cents is that yes the 560SL is the car you want; but I'm not sure you're going to find a really perfect one for under $15K. The basic rule is "don't buy an SL with needs" and "buy the best SL you can afford--no fixer uppers".
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,169
    Buy the nicest one you can possibly afford - for the cheapest Mercedes often turns out to be the most expensive. Look for old records, and if you know a reputable shop, it is very worth it to have them go over it. A lot of the individual problem areas are centered around specific engines and years. I will say that on a decent miles car, timing chain is seldom an issue.

    I think a nice enough 560SL can be had for 15K. Not a low mileage time warp, but something that has been shown care. I could have bought a very nice 88 560SL with about 70K miles on it about 5 years ago, in a color that matched my W126, for about 15K IIRC. It was taken care of and had no needs.

    A 90s car will be in the same price range - even the very last 2000-2002 models aren't bringing much more than 20K now. Off and on there were 6cyl variants of these sold, even a 5 speed 300SL in the early years, maybe in 90-91. One of those would probably be cheaper to take care of, but there would be some sacrificed performance.

    Beware of 90s (R129) models that show any kind of neglect - I have noticed a lot of run-down ones lately, they seem to be attracting the type who can't or won't do the required maintenance. And for that platform, run away from the V12 cars - running costs are very high and there's not much extra benefit.

    For specific advice, MB specific forums like MBworld and Benzworld might get you more responses.
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    freshairfiendfreshairfiend Member Posts: 28
    To bwaters.
    The idea of some sort of an SL as either a hobbycar or a daily driver is a good one, but you have to decide what characteristics you want in this car. A 560SL is an excellent car in so very many ways, but by today's standards, it is by no means a performance car and is completely different from the later models. Those SL's that came after offer a far higher performance, but tend to be rather more expensive in regard to upkeep. A good 560SL is certainly not an expensive car to maintain (bearing in mind its pedigree and what it is) and spares are still readily available. The build quality right through the production time was very high and with the right treatment - a little TLC and regular maintenance - the car will run for ever. I doubt if such can be said of the SL's from 1990 and on. Their heavy reliance on electronics can make them extremely expensive to fix and although they are nice looking cars in their own right, they do not have the eye appeal of a well kept 107. I personally don't think they are as comfortable either though in fairness, with automatic tops etc they are undoubtedly more convenient. One final thought: although there are a lot of 560SL's out there and they will probably never command the kind of price the rarer 113 goes for, they are no longer depreciating whereas the newer ones still are. Whichever way you go I hope you enjoy your SL.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    thanks for those comments freshair. Good advice.

    I would like to add, though, that the last years of the 560SL show pretty darn good performance figures. These cars are considerably quicker than earlier SLs and can even beat the later 500SL. With the right car and right driver, you are easily in the 7 second category with this car, and perhaps high 6s with an extreme brake/gas launch. And handling is much better than earlier SLs as well.

    Only "downside" is that your gas mileage isn't going to get much better than maybe 16 mpg.
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,169
    That's very correct on 107 vs 129 - the older car has significantly less electrics to break, and will probably prove to be more durable with less fiddling around needed - MB really did know how to build cars in the 80s. I still am often tempted with going back to a nice W126...and may keep a 107 or something around for sunny days...they are both cheapish cars anymore.
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    freshairfiendfreshairfiend Member Posts: 28
    That's interesting. I had no idea that the late 560SL's were that quick. I have driven a friend's '88 a few times, though only in cruising mode, and although quite responsive, I never felt it had more than a bit of an edge on my '85 280SL, but I guess with a little more lead in the foot it would react differently. You alluded to gas mileage though and that rule rarely changes - the faster you drive the more gas you will use and none of the V8 SL's are specifically known for economy.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh you have a European 280SL with the 6 cylinder? I think the 560SL would easily outperform it, yes. But maybe not from 0-30 mph. It takes a little while for that truck to get moving. :P
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