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Ford Five Hundred/Mercury Montego
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Comments
See: http://www.ford.ca
The only Mercuries sold in Canada are the Grand Marquis and the Marauder. But they are sold at Ford dealerships
The Sienna is not that quiet (some owners even state that the previous generation Sienna was even quieter than the new one), but Toyota produces refined and very quiet engines.
Now GM are also concentrating on quietness inside the vehicles, which improves the quality feel of a vehicle.
So I'm pretty sure that the 500/montego will be very quiet.
Fortunately, Ford cars will be much better with the new Duratec 3.5L (hopefully).
That wouldn't take a lot, actually. The essex engines are updated, yet old tech.
I'm betting on a good solid 250HP/250TQ. to start with. But that's just MY personal guestimate.
The relatively lower power output in the 2005 Five Hundred/Montego is what started me looking at the Subarus in a serious way. I may still wait for the Fords, but it is far more likely I will buy the Subaru. Sad, really, as I much prefer the body size and style of the Fords.
I have 151,000 miles on my 2000 Impala LS, and can't wait much longer. I have serious concerns whether the 200hp engine in the Five Hundred is enough power for me. I live where coal trucks and two lane roads are frequently encountered, and power is a necessity, not a nice to have. And I am definitely interested in AWD.
The fact the Subaru primarily drives the rear wheels while the Fords primarily drive the fronts is also a factor for me, as is Subaru's relatively much longer experience in AWD. On Ford's side, there are many more dealers, parts should be easier to get. On Subaru's, the transmissions are much more of a proven commodity than is the CVT I would be interested in.
What to do, what to do....
I also would MUCH prefer a sedan to a wagon, but the Subaru sedans are too small for me and my needs...
The Ford is something to consider several years from now, when it will have the bigger engine and the bugs will have been worked out of all of the new parts.
I just wish the inaugural Ford Five Hundreds had more power...
Honda will also have a four door car truck based on the next generation Pilot / Odyssey/ MDX platform. Yes, I think it will be competition for the 500, as it also addresses the needs of people who need space and a big "trunk." It will also have more power than the current vehicles, and therefore far more than the Ford.
It still seems obvious that Ford needs to find a way to either get the new 3.5 V6 into production (with power to match the Nissan and Honda engines) sooner, or get more out of the current engine (the same Eaton supercharger used on the GM 3800 V6 would be one good choice).
Subaru is controlled by GM - not a comforting thought with regard to quality.
Also, Chrysler has a better warranty than Ford. It seems that Ford would have an easier time selling the 500 / CVT with a better warranty.
Be that as it may, the ONLY reason I probably will NOT be buying the Five Hundred is the lack of engine power given its large size.
So, why not just hold the car up another year until the engine is ready? Talk about the competition getting the jump on them! They are in a bind, no doubt, and it's unfortunate that Ford wasn't able to bring it all to market right now, but things being what they have been the past few years, Nassergate, Firestone/Explorer issues, stock price, p/e ratios, etc., it now is what it is. And while we're all enthusiasts and pretty sensitive to the power issue, there are lots of folks who will probably think it's peppy. We'll see. If it's a "dog", well, that won't be a good thing, but other than a 4 cylinder Ranger, I haven't seen a really slow
Ford in 30 years.
The new six speed and CVT transmissions should allow it to more efficiently make use of the engine's peak torque range, and I would bet its highway mileage will be excellent.
The three liter Duratec is more than adequate in my Taurus. Yes the 500 will be heavier, but not that much heavier, so I would bet it will satisfy 90% of the potential customers.
The horsepower races in family sedans seems a bit ridiculous to me, in any event. Once you can get 0-60 in the 8-9 second range, it is adequate for almost any real world driving situation.
I don't really need anything more than what I have now, especiallly when I know with the OHC engines most of the improved HP available requires you to rev up to quite high rpms to make use of it. Actually, I hope the advent of 6 speed and CV transmissions will improve mileage, with comparable acceleration to what I have.
Here's some spy info on Toyota's next Avalon (looks like a huge Prius to me)....
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6957&sid=17- 8&n=158
Ironically, the majority of people wanting more power, chances are will never put it to use... And I constantly think of this as I'm flying Corvette's, Porsche's, BMW's. Same as many other vehicles, SUV's, Trucks, people will always want more power, YET see them at the mall parking lot and aside from not being able to park it, they cringe of driving over a sidewalk if road rage kicks in.
While we compare performance from one vehicle, to another, the 500/Freestyle might excel in another area like interior space. While we enjoy the driving dynamics of another, the 500/Freestyle will excel in safety, etc. In other words, no vehicle is ever perfect, but if performance is the main attraction someone is looking for over utility/space/safety, then maybe a Mustang is the segment they should be shopping for.
Performance/mileage facts about the 500/Montego/Freestyle aren't even close to coming out yet, so it'll take awhile since they are undergoing emissions certifications around this time.
That Avalon looks to have pretty poor rear visibility. It might attract a younger demographic than the current Avalon, which has to be one of the more ungainly styled sedans around.
Wonder if the finally found a place to hide the "Signature" Toyota low hanging tailpipe currently available on Camry, Lexus ES330, and Avalon.
The 500 will likely be a bit heavier than the 4 cyl competition, but probably not by enough to offset the extra power of the V6.
So, if you get limo-ish room with comparable performance to the mainstream compition, along with competitive mileage, a large chunk of the buying public will be real happy.
What the heck, a Mazda MPV uses the same basic engine, and is considered to be reasonably sprightly for a minivan (even loaded up), and I'm sure it is at least as heavy as a 500, without the slick trannys or aerodynamics.
Makes you wonder how people survived back in the '80's, with heavy cars with wheezy little engines. I'm surprised we all didn't die the first time we tried to get on the interstate!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Also, I'm not sure who calls the MPV a sprightly minivan, but I believe that would be due to its size/handling and not acceleration- it trails the Quest, Sienna, and Ody in such measures and CR cited lax engine response as an issue in there full test.
~alpha
That's about it in the full size under $30K range(affordable range), so I really don't think that in this vehicle, ultimate performance means squat to nearly all of their potential buyers.
Leave the smaller sedan size to the coming Futura which will sit right at the same size range as Camry, Accord, Altima, Mazda 6, etc, etc. Ford will not make the mistake again of trying to market a Focus and Contour that have nearly the same space capacity. This killed the Contour because you could get a Focus less expensively with nearly the same room, or a Taurus with much more room and little or no more cost. They are spreading the size ranges more than in the past, which is good.
~alpha
Thanks, John
FdCapt, If Ford chooses to, they can make the 3.0L Duratec pump out 240HP if need be. Examples such as the Lincoln LSV6 and Jag S-type V6. Issue, it would cost a bit more, and require premium fuel.
The price to pay for performance. And maybe Ford doesn't feel like they want to offer a premium fuel requirement on the vehicle. Imagine the headlines on newspapers...."they installed a CVT to save fuel, but you gotta pay premium for it" Because of course, the media would divert the story in a negative tone.
They could try the Mazda6 version fo the 3.0L, which requires premium but bumps 220HP, BUT it's configured to produce lower torque at 192TQ. It's designed to breathe higher (at the price of torque), which Mazda installed their own heads.
As for the TL's, Honda's engines have always been peaky, and gotta slam it hard to attain power. They also use low axle ratios which is part of the story, that helps acceleration. The axle ratio's on the 500 will be even lower, which will help substantially.
Overall, just wait till the first few models are publically tested. Just don't expect Mustang performances though....
The 220 Hp in the Mazda is at 6300 rpm whereas in the Taurus it is 201 at 5500 rpm.
To me, you really aren't getting much, if any bang out of the Mazda variable valve technology for real world driving. It does give you a higher horsepower number you can advertise though to fool the uninformed public. You gotta really wind up the Mazda. Maybe that's where they get the "zoom-zoom"!
I Agree with the others who say give the car a chance. Test driving by the specs doesn't tell you the whole story. A ford 500 representative from Ford was on Autoline Detroit and she assured everyone that the car has good low end performance due to its new innovative transmissions.
Opps, that's right, the Mazda6 doesn't require premium...to think I have a friend with one...I just have my mind elsewhere today (steaming carpets).
i hope you just don't look up some specs to come to your conclusions.
One thing we can be pretty sure of is that no one in this discussion has yet to drive a 500 with either the 6 speed or CV transmissions!
At the risk of sighting statistics instead of driving experience, I pulled a few more nuggets off Edmund's comparisons to make my point:
2000 Taurus Duratec 4 speed automatic, 0-60 8.3 seconds, 1/4 mile in 16.4 seconds at 1/4 mile speed of 86.7 mph. Taurus weight 3313 lbs.
Mazda6 V-6 5 speed manual, 0-60 7.8 seconds, 1/4 mile 16.8 seconds at 90 mph. Mazda 6 weight 3243 lbs.
Interesting that the Taurus got through the 1/4 mile sooner than the Mazda, but it's speed at the end of 1/4 mile was a little slower. The Taurus must have better low speed acceleration, right?
More than one way to skin a cat. And yes, results may vary, especially depending on who churns the gears in the manual Mazda. But no overwhelming differences between the two. Just wind the zoom zoom up a little in the freer breathing variable valve timing Mazda Duratech to squeeze a few more horsepower, but the Taurus Duratech does about as well.
I drive my friends Mazda6S about twice a week, and call me spoiled because my car is a V8, but I don't wish to say the engine lacks torque, but at first press up to 3000RPM there COULD be a bit more thrust. Granted, past 3000RPM the Mazda V6 makes up for it and will get you to 0-60seconds quickly, but [non-permissible content removed]'s that initial launch.
IN comparison, her husbands Taurus with the Duratec jolts forward at first press of the gas, then remainds a bit more composed throughout the rev range. IN comparison, another friends Saturn L300 3.0L V6 has just 190TQ, yet it's quick at first press....
Anyhow.....
mid-range performance is also key. Most people aren't that concerned with 0-60 from a stop light, but want to get good response when they pull out to pass. The Duratech should be stronger here with the 6 spd. or CVT, even if it isn't a rocket off the line.
The average Camry probably never exceeds 3500 RPM anyway.
Again, I'm talking about the average sedan buyer, not the enthousiast/hot rodder minority (that is probably overly represented here).
Plus, I do think a car this size/weight, and especially the Freestyle version, needs a bigger engine. 3.3l w/225 HP and torque would be nice, so the 3.5l should make a nice optional upgrade.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
That's very true. I know numerous vehicles that have the initial throttle launch, just to make them feel faster. And other items such as muffler's are tuned to make them sound sporty, and give driver's the impression their cars are quick.
So what is the delay, it is not the outsourcing major suppliers, they are in place. Die cast blocks will be supplied by a "Teksid" operation in Alabama, Duratec-35 heads will come
from "Nemak" in Mexico, crankshafts will be supplied by India's Bharat Forge. The delay is the transition of the Lima Ohio plant to "Fords Flexible Manufacturing System", with installation of CNC (computer numerically controlled) lines to machine the new engine heads and convert the existing flexible manufacturing equipment for the crankshafts. The engine block machining will be a state of the art transfer line. Of course once this revamping occurs reprogramming to another engine can take place over a weekend, (truly remarkable) and it will be the same way at every engine plant. The Cleveland Engine plant#1 comes on line in 2004 as Fords first fully flexible engine plant and as stated above can reprogram to accept, say the Duratec 35 over a weekends time, provided all the engines components are shipped there. This is not going to happen because Ford is contractually committed to the Lima plant and its union workers besides Cleveland #1 is busy making other engines. But the point is if they wanted to they could.
Additionally, Ford anticipates the majority of sales volume for Five Hundred/Freestyle/Montego will be with CVT transmissions, and now that the CVT joint venture with ZF that began in 1999 is essentially in name only since Ford bought the 51% of shares owned by ZF with Ford now having 100% ownership, who knows what the final product will be in regards to durability/longevity and quality now that it will be completely Ford. At last reports Ford did not have a CVT ready for any engine having more than 220lbs. of torque the Duratec-30 engine is rated at 200lbs. of torque. Perhaps Fords purchase of ZF shares might be the signal that Ford will outsource for larger torque CVTs capable of the higher torque Duratec-35 scheduled for some Ford vehicles sometime in 2006
As previously reported in February in the Car Connection, it is a fact that some Ford engineers have already stated the Duratec-30 is underpowered for the near 4000lb (AWD Five Hundred w/driver). Its not comforting in making a major purchase to know those who engineered this vehicle believe it to be underpowered and for me that has nothing to do with 0-60. Of course sitting behind the wheel and evaluating power will be individually subjective based on anticipated expectations.
Here's another... Once the 3.5L becomes availble, they will outsource the CVT from Nissan, same one used in the Murano. Aisin (which supplies the auto trannies for the Mazda6 V6), might also supply Ford with a CVT able to withstand 250HP/250TQ. Although this isn't to say that ZF couldn't develop one on their own... it's all on timing.