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Ford Five Hundred/Mercury Montego

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Comments

  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    When'd you get the Monterey? I didn't know you got one! How's the Mountaineer going? Do you still have the Navigator?
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Got the Monterey a month ago to replace my Villager that was coming off lease. The villager had 55,000 miles on it and other than constantly needing brake pads, was a good van. My courier was sort of sorry to see it go. Now, here's where the dilemna came in. I could have got a PT Cruiser for about $15,000. The Monterey stickers at $30,000, base model. (They have REALLY put a price on these new ones. No wonder they aren't selling!) But out of loyalty for my favorite L/M dealer, I leased the Monterey, and the deal was good. My courier is delighted, because this is a damn surprisingly nice van! Having rented many Windstars and feeling they were barely competent, I was amazed at how much more refined and pleasant to drive the Monterey or Freestar is. Best of all, I expected some issues with the van, since Windstars are famous for their problems - and this is brand new design. There are none so far at all. I think they may be building this one right.

    Only had the 04 Mountaineer a day now, it's going fine. Yes, still have the Navigator which is my main ride, and it's just excellent. Nothing yet out there that would drive me out of it.
  • buckwheatbuckwheat Member Posts: 396
    J Mays is the likeable 49-year old American who has been head of Ford Motor Co's global design team since taking over from Jack Telnack in 1997, according to Mays "Expect the 3-bar grille to feature prominently on a facelifted Five Hundred in just a couple of years".
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    What's a 3 bar grille?
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    The one from the Futura concept picture we have previously seen, there should be one on Edmunds, or I can link you to one if you wish.

    It's 3 bars, across the front grill that will be used on the passenger vehicles to come. Right now they are getting the 500 Grills look, with the mesh grill (Taurus, Focus, 500, CV)...then it'll grow to the 3-bar look.
  • upsetter1upsetter1 Member Posts: 205
    I read somewhere that J May is british.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    I talked briefly with him at the Carlisle Ford Nationals this summer. He was signing autographs, and we briefly chatted about the new Mustang and the Five Hundred. I don't remember him having a British accent. If I recall correctly, he is from Oklahoma. His family owns a large ranch there.
  • xmf314xmf314 Member Posts: 154
    J Mays is from Oklahoma. Here is a link to his biography:

    http://www.ford.com/en/innovation/design/designers/jMays.htm
  • fdcapt2fdcapt2 Member Posts: 122
    I've been continuing my search for anything new on these vehicles. I've been reading a lot of different peoples thoughts on what might take place. Like most of us now know, the cars will be underpowered compared to just about every other car in their class. I still shake my head trying to understand Ford's reasoning behind using the 30 Duratec. There have been discussions here talking about the new tranny's, and how much that will make a difference. To release 3 new vehicles using this engine, is stupid. When you look around and see the Nissan Altima banging 250+HP, and that's not even the top of the line car for them. Nissan also dropped the ball a few years ago when they released the Altima with more power then the Maxima. How can they, meaning the car manufacturers, let something like this happen. It just isn't good to have new cars like the 500/Montego/Freestyle being released using an engine that's been old for a few years now. I had 3 Ford/Mercury cars with the Duratec 3.0. Even though they ran fairly well, they needed a few more ponies to take them to the top. Ant, I saw a post of your's on a Montego site, I think, and you were discussing what can be done to give the 30 a shot in the [non-permissible content removed]. I'm waiting to take my chance behind the wheel of the Chrysler 300C, the one with the Hemi. All this discussion about why Ford dropped the ball might be forgotten if things go right when I light up that Hemi........
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Well the 300C is not at all what the 500/Montego are aiming for. Although if acceleration is a priority for them, the 300C would do. Or I would just do the Mustang and save $10K at that.

    Pretty much it comes down to this. Either they release the vehicles NOW with the Duratec30, or release it in another year or so, with the Duratec35. If you delay it a year just because of powertrain, the vehicle itself (and it's technology) will fall behind once introduced.

    HENCE, introduce it now and let the vehicle sell itself on it's other positive merits... Then integrate an optional powertrain (Duratec35) a year or so after introduction, to gain sales and create fresh attention again.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    If the 500/Montego (especially Montego) top out at what $33,000 as expected, do you not think the the 300s will be cross-shopped. Most certainly, the 3.5L 300 Touring and Limited will be, and those who want more- can look to the 300C, but dont have anywhere to go with the Montego. The 3.5L already offers substantially more power than the intro Duratec in the Fords. If Ford isnt after the larger sedan market (300, Amanti, Avalon) who are they after?

    ~alpha
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    I've already test driven the 300 with the 250HP 3.5L, and I say there's about 40 horses absent on that powertrain, and has always been over-rated. The weight issue is mainly a factor.

    Pertaining to the 500, maybe the AWD version might be the closest version someone would cross shop it with...but comparing the FWD 2WD versions of each vehicle will make the deciding factor for many.

    Granted, the 300C could have even 400HP and be priced the same, but in the end it will not guarantee sales success. Let's take a look at the Nissan Titan, great acceleration performance, but it's sales are below what expected. Same with the Quest, same with the Armada. Acceleration is just one factor in the equation.
  • rcf8000rcf8000 Member Posts: 619
    Look at the Mercury Marauder. The marketplace cerainly greeted it with a big yawn. Of course, if it had the performance of the 300C, maybe things would be a little different. But the biggest factor was probably that it was a more powerful engine in an obsolescent car. Nobody is going to buy a 500 or Montego who is mainly interested in acceleration. The power of the 3.0 Duratec should be enough for the target market.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    Well, I WAS. But Ford has pushed me into looking at the 250hp/250ft.lb. torque Legacy GT or Outback XT.

    Otherwise, it WOULD have been a Five Hundred.

    I doubt I am alone in this....
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    I understand your point, and I agree that acceleration is just one aspect of a vehicles overall package. I just feel a 200 hp powerplant is disappointing in an otherwise all new effort. I dont care that we'll get the 3.5L in a year. That will be fine for then- but what about now? Consumers looking to purchase now but wanting power will NOT purchase the car. Reference the above post.

    I think the Quest is not selling well because of its overwrought design and tepid reviews. The Titan and Armada certainly arent selling poorly, and arent THAT FAR off targets.

    I was at the NY Auto Show again today (didnt have much time on Friday). I saw the Ford display. For all the money Ford has spent on interiors, I feel that it only really shows in the Lincolns, whose interiors are classy and well done without an obvious look of trying too hard. I HATE that the 2005 Focus has a different, much uglier, less stylish center stack. The Freestar/Monterrey also failed to impress, BUT if I was in the market, I suppose I could overlook that given the NOW $4000 rebate. Thats insane for a vehicle less than a year old, though precisely what was expected. The Five Hundred on the display table had a pleasant exterior, but generally boring interior. Looks roomy, and the seats APPEAR comfortable.

    Seriously, what is the deal with the Mariner. Its a frekin Escape for God's sake, and its STILL not on sale, despite being at LAST YEARS NYIAS. The spiral notebook like brochure says the FALL. WHY?

    ~alpha
  • andy71andy71 Member Posts: 96
    It seems like Ford uses the lowest output engine for its own cars where as companies owned by Ford get higher output and more refined engines.

    Example 1: Ford Focus(2.3L) 145 Hp
               Mazda3 (2.3L) 160 Hp

    Example 2: Ford Taurus/500 (3.0L) 200 Hp
               Mazda6 (3.0L) 220
               Lincoln LS (3.0L) 232Hp
               Jaguar X type (3.0L) 232Hp
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Alpha,

    For those who believe 200HP isn't enough, then will obviously try other vehicles. It's only US, because of our resources, that are aware that a 3.5L will be implemented into the vehicle in the future. The majority of other consumer's, will not so they'll miss out, and that's obvious the risk that had to be taken in Ford's behave.

    It doesn't how much we analyze the situation, and complain (trust me, I've done my share part over the engine) but to there was NO way the 3.5L could have been ready for this vehicles debut. And this is the best situation Ford could have done, given the circumstances. And it's really not as bad, as the 200HP might state.

    The Mariner was delayed to coincide with the Escape Hybrid debut. And you also don't wish to do it at the same time the Montego launches, so other factors were taken into consideration.

    Andy,
    Numerous engines are tailored, depending upon the brand. Toyota has it's 3.0L, where it would make 194HP to 210HP in Toyota, but 220HP in Lexus. (Now 3.3L).

    Nissan's 3.5L does 230Hp on the Quest (a bit more on the Altima/Maxima) but makes 260HP-287HP ON Inifniti products, etc.

    Same thing with Ford, Jag, Lincoln, Mazda. IN some cases (like Jag and Mazda) they have the original engine architecture, but they fit their own heads and tune it for a bit more power.
  • samnoesamnoe Member Posts: 731
    has 240 hp, not 230.
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    Just for kicks I went back and looked at CR's acceleration data for the 3.0 Duratec in Taurus vs 3.0 Duratec modified and with 5 speed automatic in Mazda 6.

    Taurus 0-60 in 8.3 seconds. 45-65 in 4.9 seconds. 1/4 mile in 16.4 seconds. Curb weight 3325 lbs. CR mileage test: 15 city, 31 highway, 22 overall

    Mazda 6: 0-60 in 8.1 seconds. 45-65 in 5.3 seconds. 1/4 mile in 16.5 seconds. Curb weight 3355 lbs. Cr mileage test: 14 city, 30 highway, 20 overall.
       
    Seems all that tweaking Mazda did with variable valve timing and a 5 speed automatic did nearly nothing but allow Mazda to publish a 10% higher horsepower rating, but with worse mileage, and in only one acceleration test did it beat the Taurus.

    My point, wait until you drive the 500 with the 3.0 Duratec before you pass judgement on its inadequate engine, and if you think it is inadequate, then buy something else or wait for the 3.5. I'd certainly rather Ford release 500 this fall than wait a year for another engine option.

    In the meantime if you want a real bargain, pick up a Taurus or Sable. Just saw a local add for a new Mercury Sable LS Premium well equipped including no charge leather, illuminated keyless entry, ABS, autodimming rear view mirror and automatic temperature control, along with all the standard features in the top model Sable including the 3.0 Duratec. MSRP $24325. Net price with all rebates and discounts: $17675. Good performance at a bargain price.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    If you want a REAL bargain, you can pick up a 35000 mile 2002 Taurus SEL for about $11,500, maybe a little higher certified- probably worth it. THAT is a bargain.

    ~alpha
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    I agree, used is even more of a bargain. I prefer to buy new as I keep my cars a long time and prefer to control all the maintenance. A certified used with an extended warranty is a very valid and cost savings approach, no doubt about it and I would definitely consider that route next time.

    That could apply to just about any car you buy, but with Taurus/Sable's (undeserved in my opinion) "rental car" image, high depreciation makes it even a better deal purchasing a year or two old used car.

    Somebody better buy new though, or the used car supply would dry up.
  • mschmalmschmal Member Posts: 1,757
    All the gear heads here seem to be upset over the 30 Duratec.

    I sell Fords and I can tell you that as long as the car FEELS like it can safely accelerate into traffic, no one will care what the published horsepower ratings are.

    People only ask "is this a 4 cylinder or a 6 cylinder" these people don't even understand that a thoroughly modern 4 cylinder like the Ford/Mazda 2.3L offers the same type of performance as an old tech 6 cylinder like the 3.0L Vulcan in the Taurus.

    People just think 6 cylinders are better then 4 cylinders.

    GM is well aware of this perception and sticks to old tech low output OHV engines instead of moving to DOHC engines and saves about $800.00 per unit..

    When a customer tests drive a car, they care about how it feels. If the 500 has a tight feel. Feels well put together and creates an overall impression of value it will sell.

    Ford's target demographic for this vehicle is the 40's something empty nester who is moving out of a mini-van or suv. (SUV customers will go for the AWD version). These people didn't buy the SUV or Mini-Van for str8 line performance and they aren't going to decide whether or not to buy a 500 over str8 line performance.

    Initial quality will be way more important to the success of this vehicle than horsepower figures. Hence the 30 Durotec is a good choice, its' been around almost 10 years, its proven reliable and Mazda has put plenty of refinement into it over the years.

    Obviously, if you try to evaluate the 500 as a Porsche or a Lexus, its going to loose. The questions actual customers will be asking are "will this carry my family comfortably," "will this be reliable," "will my friends and co-workers laugh at me," "is this vehicle safe."

    I for one know I'll be say to my customers "this is built on the same platform as the Volvo S60" "this AWD system is the same one used by Volvo" "the safety systems in this vehicle were designed by Volvo" "this care uses VOLVO technology."

    Remember its more fun to drive a slow car fast then a fast car slow

    Mark
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    In GM's case, those ohv V-6s may not bother the GM faithful, but I do think those engines are a stumbling block in the effort to win over import buyers. Just as customers think that six cylinders are better than four, most import buyers think ohc is better than ohv.

    "Gear heads" have more influence over other car buyers than their numbers would suggest. If several sources aimed at gear heads note (relatively) slow acceleration figures, that is a hurdle the sales force will have to overcome for prospective customers. Most family sedan buyers don't expect a rocket sled with four doors, but they will be reluctant to buy a vehicle that is branded "slow."
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Ironically GM is fully aware that it's OHV engines deter some of it's buyer's... If not, they wouldn't have made an engine deal with Honda, for them to supply their 3.5L SOHC V6 into the Saturn.

    And which is why they have placed their new 3.6L DOHC V6 (high feature) into their Rendevouz, Larcross, etc. Or even the Caddy XLR, which they could have placed the 5.7L OHV V8, but they chose the sophisticated Northstar instead.

    But obviously they don't see it as a priority, and are concentrating on interiors instead which is desperately needed as well.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    "Just as customers think that six cylinders are better than four, most import buyers think ohc is better than ohv."

    I have to respectfully disagree with this. IMHO, most buyers could care less regarding OHC vs OHV. Gearheads OTOH...
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    You mean, uneducated buyer's that is. Thanks to the internet many consumer's are using it to research vehicles before test drives. And even on some of these forums, I've seen people who obviously have no knowledge of a certain vehicle, bring it up.

    One of them stated, "One review stated it had a OHV engine, is that bad??" SO I went on to mention the difference (and the ticking problem GM has with their OHV V8's)...So consumer's are slowly learning.

    But yes, they'll be many that won't notice the difference or know what to look for. And for them, there's GM, Kia and VW.....
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    "You mean, uneducated buyer's that is." Uneducated and blissfully happy about it. I think your anecdote is in the minority. I can count on one hand the number of my co-workers and neighbors who know nothing more about their vehicles other than the make, model, color, number of doors, and where to fill the tank.

    The vast majority of car buyers shop based on style, price, and reputation as opposed to the nuances of engine design.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    How it drives matters a lot to the "uneducated" buyer.....as well as to the gearhead. For example, when FWD first came out, and was touted as the best innovation in modern car design since the electric starter, I bought a Sable, and though I loved the design, feel and quality of the car - I would say to myself, (and others), what's with the torque steer? How is this better??? Other than traction, obviously......
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    With OHV and it's inherent designs, your confronted with typical issues that are common to them. Such as being noisy and crude sounding when pushed hard. A customer will notice such things.

    I was asked by someone why the Freestar sounded rough at higher RPM, over the Sienna when they were shopping for a minivan.

    And that's obviously a factor consumer's will take into account even if they aren't aware of the engine designs.
  • a_l_hubcapsa_l_hubcaps Member Posts: 518
    In case anyone's interested in option information, the Five Hundred ordering guide is out. Run a Google search for:

    ford 2005 "ordering guides"

    and it's the first hit. Just FYI.

    -Andrew L
  • samnoesamnoe Member Posts: 731
    Interesting pdf file! Thanks Andrew.

    So the power output will be as follows:

    203 hp @ 5750 rpm
    207 lb.-ft. @ 4500 rpm

    Same goes for Freestyle.

    a little better than expected!
  • tomcat630tomcat630 Member Posts: 854
    There are quite a few pseudo car enthusiasts who mainly look at stat sheets in car magazines. They may not necessarily know auto engineering, but basically want "the lastest and greatest" as the magazines say so. So, OHC has been labeled "better", and they demand that.
  • andy71andy71 Member Posts: 96
    I personally like OHC or to be more specific DOHC engine over old fashioned pushrod engine. I realize pushrod engines have good low rpm torque although it comes at the expense of high rpm horsepower. But my biggest complaint about OHV engine is the rough sounding exhaust note at higher rpm. It just doesn't have the smoothness of an OHC engine. That's the reason the Duratec Taurus is a much better car than the Vulcan Taurus.
  • frizz2112frizz2112 Member Posts: 84
    I was hoping that Ford would pull a fast one on us and release the 500 with the 232 HP version of the Duratec that they use in the Lincoln LS. I'm sure cost considerations and potential conflict with Lincoln are to blame for this, but it sure would have gone a long way to keeping the 500 competitive engine wise until the 3.5 comes out. With Chrysler putting Hemis in their big cars and Toyota planning a 270 HP Avalon in the fall, the 500 is going to look and feel pretty weak in comparison. I agree that to many buyers this won't matter, and I also feel that the conservative styling will actually help sales (look at the Camry and Accord.) The magazines might not like it, but people will buy it. Here's to hoping that the quality is where it needs to be...
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I'm old enough to remember the original Hemis, the 330 in the DeSoto Firedome, and the 426 in the Hemi-Cuda. From the designs I've seen, this new Hemi is not nearly as much a Hemi as the originals, but it's probably enough to technically qualify. Anyway, drove one of the new ones. Very disappointing. I sure couldn't find all 340hp. It was brand new, and may get better after it calibrates fully, but it was kind of a dog, compared with my Navigator anyway. So, the marketing hype is working great - but I'm not sure the Hemi is all that and a bag of chips too.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    Yet I am quite sure it was much more than an approximately 203 hp, 207 ft lb torque engine in a 3800 pound car...
  • fdcapt2fdcapt2 Member Posts: 122
    I've posted here a few times asking for any updates on the 500/Montego, and have gotten some pretty good information from some of you. I know I've bitched about the 30 Duratec they will use in the cars this year, but IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE !! No matter how I try to get it in my head, I still can't understand how Ford could drop the ball as bad as they did by powering these cars with an engine pushing out 203HP. I understand with the new 6 speed and the CVT, it will be a much different feel. I drove cars with these engines for a long time and even though they were OK, they still lacked power. As far as the new Hemi someone mentioned here, every article, in every magazine or website that I've read, has had nothing but good things to say about the cars that will be powered by this motor, especially the Chrysler 300C. Who knows, I haven't had a Mopar vehicle since my 340 Duster days. Maybe I might have to cross the road to the Land of Mopar.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Getting a new car out with all the components brand new and ready to go isn't as easy as cooking dinner and getting everything done at the same time, (a feat I cannot master, BTW). Clearly it would have been great to get the 3.5 ready in time, or would you rather they hold up the 500 until the engine is thoroughly tested?
    I know what I DON'T want - I don't want the damn head gaskets to breech because they hurried it up.
    I would just wait an extra year until the new engine is available if it were me. I made that mistake once - I bought a 97 Mountaineer in 96 when they first came out, because I wanted an SUV. The next year, the Navigator was out - and I should have waited, because I really needed, and wanted the bigger truck. But I was stuck with the Mountaineer for a 2 year lease.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    When you have a five year old car with 154,000 miles on the clock, waiting another year is NOT a reasonable option.
  • andy71andy71 Member Posts: 96
    Maybe Ford should have kept the trusty Taurus for another model year. I actually like the Taurus and the newer ones are far superior to the ones from the early and mid 90's. Ford should have introduced the 500 in MY' 06 when the 3.5L engine was ready for production. An all new car with an all new engine.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    I'll keep it simple again... The Duratec35, was NOT, and there's NO possible way, of bringing that engine sooner. Between the part maker's, supplier's, factory allocation, etc. It was simply NOT possible.

    YES, Ford could have delayed the 500/Montego/Freestyle till '-06, but when ONCE the vehicle would debut, it would have been critisized for having (2003 techonology). Plus, Ford would be losing time (which is money) on THAT specific program, if it's not introduced THIS YEAR.
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    OHCs are labeled "better" because they are.

    the magazines are just stating the obvious. i guess it's just not obvious to GM diehards who can't afford to drive cadillacs. why in the heck would GM positioned the upcoming 3.6l for their higher echelon cars?

    true, many consumers probably don't have the slightest clue that their engine is an OHC design but they notice the smoothness and refinement of that engine. this is what would sells the car.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    OHC is to OHV like OHV was to FLATHEAD engine technology in the 50's. It's just more refined and smoother, allows for higher reving and probably runs more efficiently too. Doesn't mean pushrods are totally out of date, but - all the great cars use OHC, I believe. That says something to me. I was very surprised and somewhat disappointed that the much ballyhooed Hemi - is a pushrod engine.
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    i guess their's something to a large pushrod V8 engine. the corvette V8 is highly regarded too.

    but i'm far from impressed by GM's pushrod V6 engines.
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    Taurus/Sable is not going away for several more model years. They are consolidating production in Atlanta, so likely Taurus/Sable production will be at half or less the previous rate. You can buy one if you want. Dated or not they are a good car and a great bargain.
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    "When you have a five year old car with 154,000 miles on the clock, waiting another year is NOT a reasonable option. "

    Wow - I am very impressed.
    That's probably 8 or 9 years on my typical annual driving.
    Hope it continues faithful service until you can purchase what you want . . .
    - Ray
    Not at all proud to have purchased 4 cars in the past 8 years
    2022 X3 M40i
  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Member Posts: 792
    It looks like nvbanker was fooled by the noise and roughgness of the Navigator. I have driven them, and they are SLOW. The test results show 10 second range zero to sixty results, and the weight, engine power, and gearing all indicate that is what to expect. The new HEMI, especially in the 300C, is very smooth, quiet and fast. How that I have driven one, I have dropped any interest in the 500 - I was just checking the forum one last time before erasing my 500 information.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    Well, enjoy the Chrysler. As for me, I'd rather not sit in the bottom of a fish bowl with high windows, and I have experienced what passes for Chrysler quality before...

    Not to mention the prices on those beasts.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I understand the published numbers, believe me, and I don't dispute them. I'm just talking about the feel of the Hemi, which was an abject disappointment to me, and some others, evidently.

    As for your insults of my Navigator - what did I ever do to you?
This discussion has been closed.