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Ford Five Hundred/Mercury Montego

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Comments

  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    The Taurus is a perfect example of what happens when a manufacturer rests on their laurels. And this stems from the Jac Nasser reign where trucks were king, and concentrating on purchasing foreign companies, was in.

    The Taurus' tooling, development, EVERYTHING has been paid for, for quite awhile. Same with the CV, GM, TC. What minimal enhancements are done, I consider "buying time" till the product is eventually replaced (by the midsize vehicle formanlly named Futura).

    It's a shame that a vehicle like the Taurus which revolutionized styling for passenger vehicles, will eventually fade away. And again, all this because they didn't concentrate much on the vehicle as it aged.

    What ages a vehicle, is an overburdened platform that has maximized it's full potential. And that time has come. We now need to welcome a new wave of vehicle architectures that will take advantage of it's full potential.

    Focus is a perfect example, specially in packaging, and how it's trim porportions defy it's spacious interior. And the same will occur with the new wave of passenger car architecture. Trim exteriors, but much larger interiors.

    Ford is now doing, what it should have done 8 years ago. Asian automaker's continue to tweak their mainstream passenger vehicles, while not changing much of the components. While Ford (and others) would change TOO many components, from a prior generation to another. And Ford has acknowledged this publically, and have/will rectify it.

    Notice the '03 LS, Jag S-type, TC, CV, GM '05 X-type, Escape.... Listen to what consumer's complain about... Tweak, Improve, modify, change, what might need it.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Well, said, ANT.
  • jimlockeyjimlockey Member Posts: 265
    If Ford is to succeed they have to beat Toyota. To do that the 500 must get good gas mileage. It is no longer a game of brute power, and last but not least it must do well in crash tests.

    The Ford 500 size is right
    Ford has a great nation wide set of dealers.
  • jimb1jimb1 Member Posts: 3
    Well stated ANT, know we just need to communicate this to the decision makers at Ford. . .

    I hope they learn . . .
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Unfortunately I just read a statement a few days ago (forgot who though) and to paraphrase it pretty much stated, "We are going to concentrate on new vehicle launches" and I'm like "OH great, it's the same $#%^ they have been doing so far". Although in essense, it's really not... It's just, this person (who was quoted and I still can't remember) was really trying to say they were concentrating on vehicle launches moreso.

    Just one slip of a word, and it can really turn a story around.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    All true, ANT. Whatever the hell they focus on though, it needs to stay the course for more than 3 years!! I don't know if you were around, but I was in 95, when Lincoln was really focused on building a product that would easily perform for 10 years and 150,000 miles without much in the way of issues. And in the Town Car line at least, they really did achieve that. The 95-96 Town Cars are still a best buy today - and many of them still even have the original batteries in them - almost an unheardof phenomenon! But then Jacque the ripper "changed the focus" entirely, I won't get into what, and frankly, the 2000 Town Car was a big disappointment to most of us.

    CONSISTENCY; What the Asians have that we lack.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    Which brings up a VERY interesting question.

    I have a 2000 Impala LS with 157,000 miles. Chevy designed this vehicle to last 400,000 miles. And, indeed, the car has needed only a headlight switch and an airbag sensor in the unscheduled maintenance department.

    Has FORD made long term reliablity a goal for the Five Hundred? Or is it more focused on original costs and interested in dealer service and part sales?

    Well?
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Well, GM may have intended it to, but it very rarely happens, and even when it does, (I have a buddy with a Silverado with 300,000 miles on it), the doors won't close anymore....
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    My Impala with 157.000 miles has NO issues.

    May I remind you this vehicle was designed to compete with the police versions of the GM/CV from Ford? Which reminds me, any chance of the Five Hundred/Montego ever being marketed to law enforcement/fleets? I know that supposedly they will be offered only to retail customers for the first six months.....
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    Is there proof (an internal document, a press release, etc.) that GM designed the Impala to last for 400,000 miles?

    The 3.8 V-6 engine is a durable unit, but, from what I've read, the 3.4 V-6s have problems with the head gaskets and intake manifolds that show up well before 100,000 miles. And early-production Impalas had trouble-prone steering shafts.

    I'm not saying it couldn't happen, and I don't doubt that johnclineii has had a great experience with his Impala, but I haven't heard of them being THAT durable across the board.

    As for Ford - nvbanker and ANT14 hit it on the head with Ford's lack of consistency. Ford, unfortunately, has the habit of introducing a trend-setting model...and letting it get stale. Honda and Toyota quickly catch up (the Japanese are great imitators) and then surpass the original!

    Another area where Ford lacks consistency is durability. Even during the 1990s, for example, some Ford products were tough and wore like iron, while others would develop major problems around 50,000 miles.

    And, as much as everyone likes to blame everything on Jacques Nasser, many of these problems were present before he assumed leadership. The awful 3.8 V-6 engines and notoriously fragile Taurus and Windstar transmissions from the early and mid-1990s were designed before he was in charge.

    A friend of mine had an early 1990s Mercury Cougar that had the 3.8 V-6. He had the head gasket replaced at about 50,000 miles. He unloaded the Mercury for a VW Passat.

    I know - that's like jumping from the frying pan to...another frying pan. The main point, however, is that he didn't buy another Ford product. And that Cougar's engine cannot be pinned on Jacques Nasser. Lots of people got burned by Cougars and Thunderbirds with the 3.8 V-6 (not to mention the 1992-95 Taurus/Sable and early Windstars).
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    I am very concerned with the Five Hundred's durability, and thus see this as relevant. As to the Impala:

    http://www.satisfied-mind.com/cars/Chevrolet-Impala.htm

    That's the only place on the web I have seen, but the comment was made frequently back when the Impala was launched. They were talking about the police version, which the LS is very similar to, NOT the 3.4 base.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Look, if John or anybody else can get 150,000 of trouble free service from their Chevy, I'm all for it. As I mentioned, my buddy has a 300,000 mile Silverado, and we're all amazed that the engine and transmission have never been rebuilt. Even the dealer is very surprised. But literally, the doors have to be lifted to shut, the hinges are worn out, and the thing is so loose, it just kind of shuffles down the highway. He normally trades trucks every 100,000 miles, but this one, he's going for a record on, until the engine or transmission quits, this is his truck if he has to tie the doors closed!

    John- I don't mean to insult you, but this is a pretty dramatic claim you are making, 157,000 miles on an Impala, and never a problem? Is that what you are saying? Because I frankly don't believe you. NO ISSUES at all have had to be repaired??? Careful, or Terry is going to tell you that's a ludicrious claim!!

    But this is not the norm, I am told.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    I told you before:

    a. headlight switch...about $300 total, and it would have to go bad in Orlando, Florida!

    b. airbag sensor...less than $100

    NOTHING else that isn't considered normal wear and tear. The car has the original: battery, water pump, transmission, fuel pump, engine, hoses (!), seats, radio, etc.

    The tires have been replaced thrice, it has had new struts (about 110,000 miles), and I of course have religiously changed oil and filters. The car has also had the transmission serviced at the appropriate intervals...
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Once in a while GM & Ford both stumble into greatness, mostly by accident, I'm convinced. I wouldn't expect that out of a brand, brand new design though, like the Five Hundred. Although, I must admit, my 04 Monterey which is mostly a new design, has been flawless so far, as has my 04 Mountaineer. But the Mountaineer isn't a new design. With all the new stuff the Five Hundred is going to offer, there are bound to be some glitches....I should think.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    Well, it CAN happen. My 2000 Impala was a first year product!
  • mgpmgpmgpmgp Member Posts: 15
    My first year 89 Ford Probe was just sold last year with 245,000 miles and still ran great. I currently have a 93 Taurus with the 3.0 L V6 that has 195,000 miles and nothing ever broke after the 36,000 miles warranty expired except for ball joints and tie rod end that were replaced at 180,000 miles. My mechanic says that the 3.0 L v6 push-rod engine can go virtually forever. He works on all kinds of cars and claims that this is the most lasting engine he has encountered. I can honestly say that it has never even hesitated to start every time I turn the key (although the key holder has grown so loose sometimes I have difficulty sticking the key in the ignition. On-the-other-hand, when I brought it I could have elected for the more expensive 3.8 L engine for $600 more. It turns out that engine was a joke with most blowing head gaskets by 75,000 miles.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    There are those rare times when someone actually has no issues with a car that's known to give problems. I just met today the first (and probably only) VW owner that has owned the vehicle for 2 years without any issues... (let's see how the next year goes though, heh).

    Ford's Vulcan 3.0L is virtually bulletproof engine, although it's a bit antiquated in it's design. That engine will be phased out in the next few years, FYI.

    Production of a few 500/Freestyle has already begun, and the factory itself in quite a model of flexible production capability. This has tremendously helped moral for worker's, and they are quite proud of the quality of this product. It's extremely important (as passenger cars goes) this vehicle is released without any issues.

    And the vehicle itself will stun many people who believe Detroit is Dead. The quality, attention to detail, structural integrity are far advanced and beyond of numerous other products costing $10K more, and will definately stun people. If anything, maybe the vehicle has been "overly-engineered", so hopefully it'll be well received.
  • buckwheatbuckwheat Member Posts: 396
    Next week (May 31), all North American plants will be operating except Chicago, which is preparing to launch the all new Ford Five Hundred, Ford Freestyle and Mercury Montego.

    It must be a very few models that you're referring to.

    http://media.ford.com/newsroom/release_display.cfm?release=18396
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    So, to put reliability into an understandable context, do you think the Five Hundred will be less reliable, as reliable, or more reliable than the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis? What about service life?
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Yes, these were "practice run" vehicles before their initial launch. You can't have a Job1 day, then find out a few minutes into the first run, that "OPPS, something is missing".

    About reliability, that all depends on how it's used. I do not wish to compare it to the Crown Vic, since THAT is another platform which is Body On Frame with Watt Linkage Axle, built to jump on curbs if need be.

    But overall, the tolerances of the vehicle are quite high (specially the structure), so expect high reliability overall. And service life should be equally inexpensive overall.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    Don't you mean OOOPS?

    Giggle.
  • buckwheatbuckwheat Member Posts: 396
    A good sales pitch - Coming to a dealer near you, a "practice run" vehicle also known as dealer demonstrators.

    Just kidding!
  • mschmalmschmal Member Posts: 1,757
    What makes me furious about Ford is that the same company that can build the Ford GT then goes and turns out something like the 01 Focus.

    German and Japanese brands make you feel like even if you buy the less expensive car, you are still getting a good quality car.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Actually, there's nothing wrong with the 01 Focus from a design perspective. Don't forget, the car that has so far set a record for factory recalls is not a Ford. It's the BMW X-5! You just don't hear about that because Ford and GM are the whipping boys of the media. I don't like the Focus, but after some refinement of those recall issues, it now has earned the coveted "Consumer Reports Recommends" rating. Also, a real coup for any domestic, and particularly for Ford.

    BUT, you are right - and I have said for years, I do NOT understand how one company can build the 88 Ranger (still running, by the way) and the 88 Taurus - (if it's still running somewhere, heaven help the owner!!). Just makes no sense.

    I'm hoping that Bill can make a difference here. There are some Fords I won't buy, but generally, Fords have been good to me and I usually like the designs and interior feel a lot.

    The current Explorer/Mountaineer has been a real delight. Just brought my wife's Mountaineer back from the store. That is just about the easiest vehicle to drive I have ever had. I can't say enough about how much fun it is to drive around town. Best design in the class, IMO.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Consistancy on quality between vehicles, varies quite a bit. When a manufacturer sets out to design and build a vehicle, numerous vendors/suppliers will place bids for specific components. You might have one very reliable vehicle one year, yet on it's next redesign, everything might go to the contrary.

    In other times (back when), manufacturer's would build their own parts for their own vehicles. Then agian, in those times, you would have cars with 400 defects, per 100. Compared to numerous parts supplier's offering different components to numerous manufacturer's, yet reliability has improved to an average 132 defects per 100 units.

    Then again there's some companies (I will mention my beloved VW) who build great illusions. GREAT beautifully crafted interiors, with excellent materials. Yet the reliability of a Kia ! Which is why VW rates highest in perceived quality, yet one of the lowest in actual dependability/reliability.

    So there's a fine line where Ford products are improving across the line, yet not much of that is ever mentioned. Ford leads in a few categories for reliability. There's some components in Ford vehicles, that are rated (most reliable in the industry), yet we never hear from that. Example: Visteon who supplier's seats for Ford, has the lowest defects in that segment-yet we never hear of that.

    Instead we hear about the gremlin's of the 80's and 90's, the infamous 3.8L gasket issue, the bad trannies of the Taurus', Windstars, etc. And it'll take another good 5-10 year's before that is shaken off. Some consumer's are more willing to forgive their Accord when the tranny fails, or A/C fails (common), but you won't hear the end of it if the radio knob on their Explorer falls off.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    is better now. It's even CR's top small car.
  • buckwheatbuckwheat Member Posts: 396
    In March of 2003 Visteon Corp. pulled out of the seating business and stopped supplying seating to its former parent the Ford Motor Co.. Ford gets most of its seating from Johnson Controls Inc..
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I've owned, let's see how many....., 4 Ford 3.8L Essex engines. Only one blew a gasket. They did tend, however, to blow motor mounts because they were so torquey!! In its day, I liked the Essex - thought it was a hellova performer for the size. It's out of date now (unless you put it next to most GM engines, then it looks right at home, but what does that say...) so I'm interested to move on with the smoother, more efficient engines, but they weren't all bad. Certain years were worse than others. All because some head gasket subcontractor cheated on the engineering a little to make the bid.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Do you consider a 1 in 4 rate of head gasket failure acceptable?

    ~alpha
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Not really, if it's really a 25% failure rate, but I don't believe it was. I also had a BMW breach a head gasket under 30,000 miles some years ago, a Cadillac blew an intake manifold gasket, flooding the engine with coolant - had to sell that one, and my Caravan blew the tranny. Even my Honda started using oil excessively at 160,000 miles, but it was probably the most trouble free of the fleet. My Infiniti leaks oil, which my 10 year old Explorer does not do. You know, they're machines, and things fail, it's a miracle they work at all. I don't get catatonic when something breaks. I do get frustrated when EVERYTHING breaks frequently, and I dump the car if that happens, but I haven't had that happen since my 93 Corsica.
  • a_l_hubcapsa_l_hubcaps Member Posts: 518
    nvbanker-

    I think the failure rate on the 1995 Windstar head gaskets approaches 100%! Our '95 has always been well-maintained and not driven hard, and it blew a gasket at 42K. Other than that, it's been a pretty good van though. My dad's 1998 Olds Intrigue has had a lot more issues than the Windstar.

    -Andrew L
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    I drove a Focus ZTW wagon last spring; the ride and handling were fantastic. This particular Focus didn't have the new 2.3 engine, but it was still plenty peppy and acceptably smooth. The Civic EX sedan that I drove had a better drivetrain, but it didn't match the ride and handling of the Focus.

    They both blew away the Saturn Ion I drove the same day...I couldn't believe how bad that one was. I kept thinking, "GM killed Oldsmobile for THIS?!"

    With the Focus, Ford proved that it can build a car with great handling and performance, not to mention an astonishing amount of interior room in relation to exterior size. The problem was that it took the company about three years to figure out how to build it properly.

    Let's hope we don't get a repeat performance with the Five Hundred and Montego. At least Ford realizes how much is on the line with these new cars.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    Are you trying to talk me into a Focus wagon?

    Hmmmm. :)
  • fdcapt2fdcapt2 Member Posts: 122
    Just a quick question. I know some of you have an "in", so I figured you might have the answer. I understand that the nit-wits at Ford screwed up BIG TIME by not using the newer motor, that still hasn't started to be manufactured, but is there any info on what that new motor might be pushing as far as HP/T. I know it's been talked about how Ford really screwed up by not having the 3.5 ready for the release of these "world class" vehicles. I just hope the rest of the car is up to the the challenge from the other manufacturers.......
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    It'll depend upon the vehicle it's going into. Example, the premium fuel versions could push 260HP and probably a bit more if need be. While a regular fuel version can pump out around 230-250HP. That still hasn't been finalized yet.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    Ford is keeping the Taurus around dealer lots for a while then it will be only seen on Enterprise and Hertz Airport Rent A Car lots.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Still a mistake in my opinion, to peddle that old dinosaur into the rental fleets. It will not give renters a positive opinion or picture of what Ford is today - not good advertising. I have purchased several Ford products over the years because I happened to rent one from Hertz, and was impressed. Who's the Taurus going to impress now? It's badly neglected as it is, and that will only get worse once it's relegated to rental fleets.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    True, but if they start throwing in the 500 and Futura into the rental fleets, then you will be faced with higher depreciation upon those new models coming out.

    Notice how GM's sales are picking up, specially Impala, Malibu and Cavaliar.... Surely, GM Is happy and you should see their latest press release concerning that of how happy they are about those models sales being up.... Reality is, they are selling MUCH more to rental car fleets, hence, lower depreciation overall.

    Which is why Ford is purposely selling less to fleets, to bolster profittability as well as maintain a decent depreciation rate.

    Ironically I'm taking a business road trip tomorrow and I was asked if I wanted a Taurus from Hertz. Told them "No thanks, try again" so they gave me everything else from Volvo S60, to a Navi to choose from, but considering they all require premium, I opted for a Mazda6. Although that sucker will only give me 15MPG on the highway, BUT my point is... I won't even take the Taurus even if it's free !

    In fairness, the Taurus has it's merits (quite many) but it hasd fallen behind in some aspects that are important for MY needs.
  • deerlake7deerlake7 Member Posts: 176
    Curiousity question about the 500. As it's using the Volvo S80 platform, is it also going to be using the same steering setup? I had a Volvo S70 and, for me, the steering was the only good thing about the car. On the other hand, I've tried to like the newer Volvos (both the S80 and S60), but I've hated the steering. They seem to have a very numb feel, without much in the way of directional stability (lots of steering corrections needed).
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Steering feel will differ. Same way how the steering differ's between the Focus,Mazda3,S40. Same as with suspension's, you might find it ride a bit softer than the S80. All those tweaks will vary greatly from one vehicle to another.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    Is there a source or reporting agency that shows exactly what percentage of a model's sales go to retail and fleet customers?

    I'm suspicious of GM's sales results for some of their models. The tired old Grand Am, for example, has been recording hefty sales increases all year. I find it hard to believe that retail customers are flocking to Pontiac dealers with the sudden urge to buy the current Grand Am. The Impala has also been recording healthy sales increases all year, and it has been out for several years now.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Nope, no single agency records that data. Just the manufacturer's themselves, and most are embarassed to state what percentage goes onto fleet sales.

    Ironically, Impala, Grand Am, Cadavelier, all which haven't had a decent redesign in quite awhile, all have improved sales from year ago figures. And it's NOT rebates or incentives that are boosting sales either. Hence, fleet sales.....

    JUST at the time that Ford is cutting fleet sales, GM is going up. Clear indication. More Toyota's are popping up on rental car lots as well, I believe they are at a 8-10% to fleet sales, last source I read.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    The 500 is built on the S-80 platform? I somehow had it in my so-called mind, that it was a Mazda 6 under there. I like the S-80 a lot, that would be good news for the car, I think.

    Wish the Zephyr was built on the S-80, instead of the 6 platform. But then again, what do I know? I just need to drive the cars and see how they feel.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    It is the Ford formerly to be known as Futura that has a Mazda6 somewhere in its parentage...
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    Toyota used to not do rental fleets at all. Now there's a few. In a couple of years, they'll be all over the place.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Yep, which means they resale value will drop a bit too. They'll need to keep an eye out on that, if not it'll hurt them, like it has Ford, GM, DCX.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    and it takes a while to fix the fleet resale value problem.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    that Toyota is goig to make the mistake that GM and Ford have made in terms of rentals. They are out there, but I have a hard time believing its 8-10% of the total vehicle line. The highest volume rental car is the Camry, at 12% (combined rental and corporate fleet) last I read, I believe. But there arent rental 4Runners, HLs, Avalons, etc, as far as I know, although there may be some corporate fleet sales of said vehicles.

    ANT14- You mentioned that Malibu sales are up because of rentals- not so. Malibu sales are down slightly on the year, because it is only the Classic that is going en masse to fleets.

    ~alpha
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    The new Malibu sold a little over 12,000 units in May, which means it will still fall short of its sales targets. I recall a GM executive - I think it was Gary Cowger - saying in an Autoweek interview that the new Malibu would sell 250,000 units this model year. (Since the old Malibu is now dubbed "Classic," I'm assuming that he is referring to the new model when he says that the Malibu's sales target is 250,000 units.)

    The new model will not hit anywhere near that target. On the other hand, those sales should be to retail customers, which is an improvement over the old one.

    As for Toyota - it has always used more "hard sell" tactics, especially compared to Honda. The dealers around here easily match the Chevy and Ford dealers for screamer ads promoting "special deals on new Toyotas." I'm not surprised that Toyota is more willing to sell to fleets than Honda.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Ironically I had to pick up my car at Hertz, and because of timing issues, all they had was a Solara to choose from. EEEK !! 5 Minutes into my road adventure I get the tire pressure system telling me one tire is low on air, so BACK to Hertz I went. I just have never had luck with Toyota's, but there were quite many there to choose from. Everything from Highlander's, to Rav4's, to Camry's and Solara's.

    Hmmm, could it be Ford is using Toyota's to drive down their depreciation ?

    And yes they wanted to stick me into everything from Alero's, to Century's EEK ! After the bitching, whining and yelling was done, I got out with a Jag S-type.
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