Ford Five Hundred/Mercury Montego

ANT14 · June 2004

I personally don't like when you have a company such as that, spread their resources. It's like Mitsubishi...Build a car, or build a TV, PICK ONE ! Focus !! And since their car sector is unreliable, I'm not about to buy their TV's.

BUT, that's just a ME thing.

I'm hoping this time around the end results will be quite positive overall, than the V8 SHO senario.

fdcapt2 · June 2004

I had one of the SHO's with the Yamaha V-6. That car ran like a MOTHER!!!! I'm not sure if I got a "freak", but what a sweet car. Always had plenty of balls when needed. I hope the new 500/Montego can generate as much excitement for me. I know these new cars aren't built for speed, etc., but if they can make me happy like they did with my SHO, I'll be one happy SOB.....

robr2 · June 2004

I personally don't like when you have a company such as that, spread their resources.

It's called diversification!! It's not a bad thing at all - there's lots of companies that do it very well: GE, Honeywell, Raytheon, Daimler, et al. They all seem to follow the same philosophy: if you're not one of the top 3 players, you get out of that business.

ANT14 · June 2004

That's my thinking, either do it right and be on top or at least top 5, or get out....In this case for Yamaha, they do have some categories they are quite good in, so I'm not blowing them totally off.

They have done well so far with the V6 SHO's, and the I4's from Toyota. Their only issue (related to car engine) was the V8 SHO.

fdcapt2 · June 2004

I test drove a couple of the 8 cylinder SHO's, and I thought they were pigs. I really think I could have blown them away with my V-6. Now back to the "new" vehicles. A question for ANT......do you think Ford has a plan sometime in the near future, to drop a V-8 into either the 500, the Montego, or the Futura? They really need to catch up to the other manufacturers.

ANT14 · June 2004

The Futura (whatever it's finally named) will get a higher performance model labeled ST270, which will sport 270HP.

As for the 500/Montego/Freestyle.... That structure can't sustain a V8 powerplant unless there's major modification's to the frontal structure, firewall and suspension...hence (don't expect it). Plus the typical buyer that's being targeted for these vehicles won't be a weekend road racer with it anyways.

And if it's real V8 performance someone may want, they would want you to choose a Lincoln LS, Jag-Stype, Mustang, etc.

Maybe we get the next generation Falcon to compete with the 300C, ahem...

tomcat630 · June 2004

People complain about the 200 hp motor, but with gas prices these days, is that all the matters?

johnclineii · June 2004

To some, yes. To others, no.

Ford should offer choices, and could make a handsome profit by so doing. Probably will, eventually. The question is how much business will Ford lose by not having wider engine choices available at launch. One size does not fit all...

fdcapt2 · June 2004

I just got home from a test drive with the 2005 Dodge Magnum. The model I drove had the 3.5 V6, with 250 HP. A few weeks ago I drove the 2005 Chrysler 300 with the same motor. To say that these cars are put together well is an understatement. Very quiet ride, very smooth, and plenty of power when needed. The models that have the Hemi have a system that shuts down 4 cylinders when they aren't needed, to conserve fuel. The new Chrysler/Dodge vehicles are very well made, and are going to put lots of pressure on other manufacturers vehicles. I really think that Ford will be in trouble using the 3.0 Duratec. I know it's way to late for them to change to a different engine, but considering other cars out there that have up-graded engines, I really think Ford screwed up BIG TIME....I hope I'm wrong,........

ANT14 · June 2004

The 500's 3.0L will give you equal acceleration as the 300 with the 3.5L.

Yes, surely if the 500 had a V8, it could also do as well as the 300C's Hemi, then again...for another $10K and then you ask yourself... Why go that route, when there's another alternative in the Ford line-up such as the Lincoln LS8.

The closest the 500 can compare with the 300 is with V6 engines, and from those price points... and that they are both large sedans, that's where the similarities end.

nvbanker · June 2004

I don't compare the 300C to the 500 at all, and wouldn't cross shop them. But between the two, the 300C would come closer to attracting my attention, just by layout.

I'm more interested, sedan wise, in a Volvo S-80, or a Town Car, should they decide to put a blower in the A/C unit someday again and spruce up the interior a LOT.

lbolt22 · June 2004

The exterior of the 300C will win buyers, and the 3.5L will fool customers into thinking it outperforms the 500. But...

It's true: The 500's 3.0L Duratec mated to a CVT will drag a 3.5L to a standstill. It's not about the rated HP. It's the transmission function.

Still, I'd bet that with all that mass being dragged around by a 3.0L, some customers are still going to perceive a lack of performance.

johnclineii · June 2004

Would those be the ones who try the six speed automatic, or would they be the ones who read the specs and never even test drove the car at all because of what they think they KNOW or would they be the ones who test drove the CVT equipped version and still thought the Daimler with the 3.5 V6 was faster? Or would they be all of them?

Ford NEEDS to get that larger V6 in this car as quickly as possible. Then again, should gas prices go up again and stay there...

ANT14 · June 2004

Pretty much what it boils down to is a consumer's preference. If someone is cross shopping both, and doesn't test drive the 500, they simply aren't giving it a chance. And if doing so, they still dislike the 500 powertrain/performance, they'll only be using it as an excuse to get the 300.

But again, the car isn't aimed at the 300, so if someone is cross shopping them it'll be because it's a large sedan, and that's pretty much what they are looking for that both are similar in.

nvbanker · June 2004

I don't like 'em much anymore. Just got my Infiniti out of the body shop today, and really don't care to be dwarfed in traffic by the likes of even Trailblazers and Rodeos, which is reality anymore. Which is why most of my fleet consists of vans & SUVs now. A tall sedan has potential to ameliorate this condition somewhat though, which is why I'm interested in what Ford may do with this Five - Hundred thing. Not sure the 300 is considered a tall car, or is it just a tall beltline?

Anxious to see a Five hundred on the dirt someday.

ANT14 · June 2004

The 300 is tall, but also has a higher beltline. I have very wide shoulder's so it didn't help any seeing the beltline as high as it is. Gave me a claustrophobic feeling. Then sitting in the 500 right after, felt as if I were on top of the world, and I was actually able to cross my legs in the back seat.

nvbanker · June 2004

THAT'S more like it!

grbeck · June 2004

I've driven SUVs (a 2003 Oldsmobile Bravada and 2000 Toyota 4Runner) and don't care for the extra height. I prefer a vehicle that doesn't feel as though it's going to tip when rounding a curve.

The Five Hundred seems like a good compromise - higher seating position for those who like SUVs, but better handling for those who prefer passenger cars.

Interestingly, the Chrysler 300 and Dodge Magnum don't LOOK tall. The Magnum looks extremely low...almost as though the roof has been chopped for the "custom car" look.

nvbanker · June 2004

Yeah, like a 49 Mercury....

mgpmgp · June 2004

The 500 and 300 have nearly the same dimensions (length, width, weight), except:

1) 500 is a little about 2 inches taller
2) 300 has a much longer wheelbase
3) 500 has a little wider stance (track)

mrmoose000 · June 2004

i'm jumping up and down right now

i am the biggest Yamaha fan and almost as big of ford fan!!! my two favorite companies merging powers to form one car!!! Yamaha Ford V-8!!!

i have a big old Yamaha sticker on the back of my car ... which is a Ford explorer

now what does everybody know about this engine?

i work for yamaha golf cars and what i know about yamaha motor work is that they build strong, reliable, and efficient...golf courses only have to fill up their carts like 6 times a year...today at work i saw the first truly defective engine come out of a golf cart...first one in two years(except for that one)...Yamaha engines are bulletproof... i can't wait...

YAMAFORD!!!

ANT14 · June 2004

MrMoose, don't get too excited. The engine is going into a Volvo, might even be the Jag 4.2L but with Yamaha heads, that hasn't been sorted out yet.

Last time Yamaha did a V8 for Ford it was the 3.4L DOHC V8 found in the last Taurus SHO, and it wasn't very reliable and started giving owner's issues around 40K miles. Hopefully this time around, the issue won't be repeated.

nvbanker · June 2004

I have always found that to be a strange marriage, especially for larger engines. I could see an alliance to build ultra small ones - but with Ford's history with large v-8s and Ford Racing, why Yamaha heads? I don't have a problem with it, just don't get it.

ANT14 · June 2004

It's a very low volume product. Many times it's easier to subcontract the work out, and let someone else worry about the issue.

johnclineii · June 2004

Many moons ago, I warned of a possible job action delaying introduction of the Five Hundred/Freesytle/Montego. I was quickly informed by others on this board that I was not correct and there was no way that could happen.

It appears it may still happen. I sure hope not, but it may:

http://tinyurl.com/3989u

nvbanker · June 2004

I think I remember that, John.....

fdcapt2 · June 2004

I just finished reading the article on Ford's problem with the union, and how it might affect the production if they decide to strike. Maybe it's all a ploy so they can stall for extra time so they can get those 3.5 motors in the 500/Montego????? Just kidding, but I can dream. I do remember John posting something about this situation awhile ago.

grbeck · June 2004

You'd think the union would understand that holding up production could backfire on Ford and the workers. Today's auto market is fiercely competitive, and there are plenty of other choices out there.

ANT14 · June 2004

Let's think of it ths way... if there were such a ploy, they would really be screwing themselves over. Once a contract runs out, Ford could shift production to another plant to worker's that would give them less issues. So it wouldn't be in their best behalf... if it's one those issues that you might get Ford now, but your gonna get it right back when the contract isn't renewed and the specific plant no longer receives production of any kind and worse, work shifted to Mexico.

ANT14 · June 2004

On somewhat related side news I mentioned about the Volvo getting a V8.... today Volvo publically announced they would be producing 10-12K of the 4.4L V8 making around 320HP, to be used on the Volvo XC90.

And as I mentioned earlier, this engine will make it to the S80 thereafter...

rayainsw · June 2004

"this engine will make it to the S80 thereafter"

With AWD?
- Ray
Wondering what that 4.4L V8 will make for HP / TQ . . .

ANT14 · June 2004

Yes, just to avoid the common issues that FWD inhibit when they have powerfull engines (like Cadillac). Look for around 320HP and equal torque.

nvbanker · June 2004

Great news, but how the hell can they shoehorn that thing under the hood?

ANT14 · June 2004

Which is why they commissioned Yamaha to do it. They already had experience shoehorning the 3.4L V8 SHO in the Taurus.

nvbanker · June 2004

I see.

fdcapt2 · June 2004

Last week I had the opportunity to participate in something called "Auto Show in Motion", or something like that. It was a day of driving just about every car you can think of. They were advertising that they had over 150 vehicles at the show, and it wasn't far from the truth. It was a GM production, and a drivers dream. At each separate model distinction, they had a short road course set up with road cones. They had many other brands that you were also able to drive and compare to the GM models. They had Lexus', BMW's, Mercedes', Mustangs, Vettes, Hummers, complete with mountains of dirt to climb, SUV's, GTO's, trucks, and a bunch of top shelf luxury and passenger cars. Being a Ford man for many years, I was impressed in how well the Ford Motor Company vehicles stacked up. The Mazda 6 was impressive. I had never driven a Volvo before, and I was really impressed. The Jaguar was OK, but I really was expecting a lot more. They also had a large collection of other Ford Motor Company vehicles. If this show ever gets into your area, DON'T MISS IT!!!! Some guy who heard me praising the Ford vehicles asked me if I knew when the Duratec 3.0 was first introduced. I wasn't sure, but I told him I used to have an '87 Taurus LX that I'm almost positive had that engine. I remember the salesman telling me I had a choice of engines. One having 155 HP, or the Duratec with 200HP. Does anyone have an answer to this question?? I tried to research it but came up empty, even the Ford dealer near me drew a blank. Thanks for any help, and sorry for the novel that precedes the question.

ANT14 · June 2004

The 3.0L Duratec DOHC V6 was introduced in the "Ovoid Styled" Taurus for 1996. The 2.5L is also a Duratec design, and that first debuted in the 2nd generation Ford Probe which I believe came out in 93. (Mazda had the Mx6 clone). And that 2.5L was used in the 626, Contour, Mystique, etc.

The other 3.0L in Ford's family is the Vulcan which is OHV old-tech design. Bulletproof, but antiquated. That itself makes 155HP and has been around for almost 2 decades.

stickguy · June 2004

I thought that the 626 and Probe used the Mazda 2.5l, which was not the Duratech 2.5l used in the Contique, and later the MPV.

ANT14 · June 2004

They were the same.... Just as Mazda6 uses a 3.0L Duratec V6, but because they install their own heads and such, they don't need to use the word "Duratec" if they don't wish to. Ironically, this year "Duratec" has had a letter added to it, to "Duratech".

The foundation is the same, sometimes a bit altered.

badgerfan · June 2004

Back in 1987 you probably had your choice of the 3.0 (Vulcan) or the 3.8. Both were pushrod V-6's. Ford also put a 4 banger in for the first few years but it was underpowered and not very popular.

The Vulcan 3.0 actually was quite an engine for it's time. I went from a Chevy Celebrity "iron Duke 4 cylinder to a 1990 Taurus Vulcan and it was like night and day performance-wise for both the engine and the car, and the Vulcan got much better mileage than that old POS Iron Duke.

As ANT14 says the 3.0 Duratech came along in 1996, and is a very sweet engine in the 2000 Taurus SES I drive now. I think it will do very well as a base engine in the 500 and will perform well with the new transmissions available despite the added weight the 500 will have.

Note the tweaks Mazda put into the Duratech didn't seem to do a lot for acceleration performance compared to Ford's version in the Taurus. Check back on my post 601 for what Consumer report measured.

dave2222 · June 2004

just wondering when is the 3.5L going to come out and how much horsepower will it have? I was reading up on a ford website and it said there already was a 3.5L? Whats going on?

ANT14 · June 2004

If you scroll back, you might get more detailed answers. But to sum it up, for 2006, around 250HP.

ehaase · June 2004

I don't think that the Mazda 2.5L V6 used in the Probe and 626 was at all related to the Duratec. Mazda's 2.5L was based upon its 1.8L V6 which was used in some small Mazda coupe (MX-3, I think).

Ford did not introduce the 3.8L V6 in the Taurus until 1988. 1988 was the first year that the 3.8L V6 had port fuel injection. Prior to then, it only used throttle body fuel injection.

nvbanker · June 2004

That was a trip down Memory Lane. I had lots of experience with most of those engines, and a raft of Tauri/Sables. I concur with all of the comments, like that matters.....

fdcapt2 · June 2004

I was re-reading some posts from the past days and I saw a post about the DuratecH (ANT,notice the "H") being the base motor. Does that mean there will be a choice of motors in the 2005 model?? The 2006?? I know no one here can pin point what Ford will do in the future, but I wish I could read some big-wigs minds at Ford. I remember someone saying when the cars will be ready for delivery, and when you might be able to get the manuals. Does anyone remember that date? Thanks........

ANT14 · June 2004

Manuals? As in transmissions?? Not in the cards at all. No release date yet for the 3.5L V6, but that's still over a year's time away. It'll be introduced in a few other vehicles, before finding it's way into the 500.

johnclineii · June 2004

Ant14, sometimes you amuse me!

I THINK fdcapt2 used manuals to mean the sales brochures!

And, oh, by the way.

It's been two weeks, several times!

I sure hope the release from embargo date is coming quickly, and that the union does NOT go on strike in Chicago....(about which I have found NO news).

grbeck · June 2004

Aren't embargo dates set with the publication schedules of the monthly magazines - Car & Driver, Automobile, Motor Trend - in mind?

I figure we should see a preview in the issue that is sent to subscribers in late July.

dave2222 · June 2004

Since 2003 Fords been designing a new 3.5L V6 Duratech thats to be used on the Freestyle and Five hundred. They're also going to be using a V8 engine in 2006. If the 3.5L V6 is developed in time for the release of the five hundred which is schelduled for the late 3Q , early 4Q part of 2004 then it will be released with the Five Hundred and Freestyle. There will be a CVT transmission, a 6-speed automatic, a manual, a 3.0L V6 Duratech (200HP), a 3.5L V6 Duratech (?HP), also AWD is avaliable.

ANT14 · June 2004

And supposedly what V8 is it you say they will be using?

Manual version? I haven't seen any paperwork related to manuals in the future.

Ford Five Hundred/Mercury Montego

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