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Acura RL vs. Acura TL

13

Comments

  • acuratacurat Member Posts: 87
    I came within an inch of buying an 06 RL over the weekend. Fortunately the dealer was out of stock so I had time to re-think. I have an 04 TL non-navi and was looking to move up to real-time traffic and navi. My main motivation was probably my love of a bargain. Ten grand off is a powerful motivator! Here's what held me back.

    Financing is high even with the current special. I got 2.9% on my last car--below the rate of inflation. I love my TL. I like the RL. The RL is very grown up--not sure I am. Both cars have 5 star safety ratings. The TL gets better gas mileage and hauls a** when you stomp on it. Forty G's is a lot of dough, even with a substantial income. And the 07 TL navi has satellite traffic and is said to have a bit softer ride.

    I'll be test driving an 07 TL soon!! Don't think the RL is really for me.
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    "IF" you can get a 07 TL now at invoice, then I can see a greater price differential. The fact that you can get an 06 RL in the low 40's is a bargain to me.
    Realistically, the price difference is about 5-6k?? For that, you get 300hp and AWD along with driving Acura's "flagship."
    Have you considered waiting for the 4G TL?
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,725
    Love my '05 TL, especially with the 2.9% financing...

    From what I've read/heard, the TL, even with the less hp, offers better performance than the RL (better power/weight probably). With more interior room and, imo, much better exterior style. To me, the added weight, complexity and performance/economy drains of AWD have not been attractive to me vs. FWD. As a New Englander/skier I've always been willing to sacrifice the 9-10/10ths handling virtues of RWD for the foul-weather advantage of FWD, especially since I believe that many of today's FWD Honda/Acura's can probably handle as well/better than some lessor RWDs.

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • acuratacurat Member Posts: 87
    You're right, the RL pricing is attention-getting (or was, as I think the 06 RLs are about gone). Agreed that the RL is the flagship, and a stately one at that. Still and all, I absolutely love my 04 TL and could not bear to part with it for the ridiculous pittance that the dealer or CarMax would pay.

    Regarding the RL vs. TL comparison, I find the TL more fun to drive and more stylish inside and out. Since depreciation takes its toll partly based on model year, the more apt financial comparison is between the 06 RL and 06 TL--still about a $10K spread even at fire-sale prices. Understood that the 06 TL does not have all the bells and whistles of the 07.

    Now that real-time traffic is available on the TL navi, the rationale for spending the extra dough on the RL has pretty much evaporated for me. There, I feel so much better! Maybe I'll take a nice vacation with my wife. Driving, of course. :shades:
  • autoboy16autoboy16 Member Posts: 992
    Not to mention the 286hp Tl type-s comes standard with nav. That vs the 290hp Rl. I have always seen the Tl as the better buy.

    Can't wait until Honda/Acura sells the CTDI engines in american models. That'll give the TL and RL SCARY torque!

    -Cj :) :shades:
  • tamparltamparl Member Posts: 42
    I traded my 05 TL 5AT Navi for an 06 RL w/ backup cam.

    I am very impressed with the TL. It is edgier, sportier and in some ways more responsive than the RL. For my tastes, it was too firm riding for the awful roads I drive. But the primary reason I considered and then bought the RL was the build quality of the TL. My TL had rattles, squeaks, ill fitted interior panels, loosely clipped on bumper facias, leather issues, interior material issues and jerky shifting. It impressed me on paper, and in style, but not by the seat of my pants in daily driving. The assembly issues are not what I expected from Acura. I did not found it particularly better assembled than other US built vehicles.

    The RL is superior in build quality and materials. It is Japanese built (worldwide known as Honda Legend). I also appreciate the refined ride without compromising too much performance. Being the RL does not crash over every bump, I actually drive it more spirited than my TL. It corners extremely well with SHAWD as opposed to the FWD characteristics of the TL. Economy is similar where the RL averages 1-2 mpg avg less than my TL. The RL is everything I expected from Acura and affirms my belief that US build cars are not as good as overseas builds, even for Japanese monikers (US built Toyotas have similar issues). Now I paid 35k for my TL new. I got the RL for 40K new. In my opinion that RL is worth every penny of the difference. (Although I did not look at the RL when I bought the TL, at that time RLs sold near 50K). It is solid, impeccably assembled, the details are apparent and it feels, sounds and drives to my expectations.

    The cars are decidedly different rides. But if the ride characteristics are not the deciding factor, I would closely examine build quality and content when justifying cost differential. At 40K the RL was a no brainer for me.
  • acuratacurat Member Posts: 87
    Strongly considered another (2007) TL to replace my 2004 non-navi but ultimately decided it was time for a grown-up car. By the time I decided, all the 2006 RL non-techs except demos and weird colors were gone. Seeing as how you would have to be nuts to pay list price, I called around and got an offer on a 2006 Tech CMBS-PAX in black/ebony at $100 over dead cost (invoice minus $4K minus holdback). I did a little online research on the PAX tires. Honda Odyssey owners don't dig them but they seem OK on Acuras. Figured the CMBS might save me from a crash someday. Dickered over the trade, got them to come up $1100 from their initial offer and went for it at $42,475 with splash guards. That's about $11K south of MSRP.

    My 7-year-old son, securely belted in the back, commented, "Dad, this car ROCKS!" I must agree. We flew down the 405 in the rain and felt very secure with the SH-AWD and CMBS operating. It was fun following our progress on the superb Alpine navi unit. The Bose stereo sounds better than the TL's excellent ELS rig. Got OnStar, Bluetooth and XM working. There are a LOT more mysterious buttons which the 400+ page main manual and the 150-page navi manual promise to explain.

    I miss my sweet-but-squeaky TL a little bit. Left a few bucks on the table on the trade. I'm sure I'll get over it! Now this RL is a CAR.

    :)
  • tamparltamparl Member Posts: 42
    Congrats acurat.

    I felt guilty trading my TL, for about a day. The RL will remind you of all you love in your TL, but much more. The RL is truly an underappreciated car. I could see me running the RL for years, where the TL is in fashion. If you bought the 07 TL you would have been itching when the next generation was released in a year or two. The RL will age better IMHO.

    You will find the RL smoother, quieter yet sufficiently sporty. The FWD irks are gone. The NAVI and voice commands are much better than the TL. You will use the voice commands much more as they work much better in the RL (perhaps due to the quieter cabin?). But when you first clean your new RL, you will see how much better it is assembled, how more solid the car feels and how much better the materials are (especially the cabin). And for the cost over the TL, they SHOULD be.

    I still love the TL styling. But they are everywhere. I think I see more TL than Accords anymore. But I also love the RL. It has grown on me, more and more. I like the exclusivity of the RL. I get MORE compliments on the RL than the TL. The TL is edgier, but the RL just looks more substantial in person, and has more presence. I have read in several forums where TL to RL owners are finding similar benefits.

    Enjoy the RL. Mine is 4 months old and 4k miles. Not a creak or rattle, and I know this was the car I should have bought. You got a great price, and unless you wait for end of 2007 model year, unlikely you would get an Acura flagship for that price again.

    Oh yeah, your son has better taste than some car critics!

    Enjoy the ride.
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    "If you bought the 07 TL you would have been itching when the next generation was released in a year or two. The RL will age better IMHO"

    Maybe. The RL will have a FMC for MY 2009. Many rumors about what will be underneath the hood as well as Acura's future styling direction. You don't think you'll have an itch or two in a couple of years wanting the next generation RL?

    Congrats on your new RL ;)
  • tamparltamparl Member Posts: 42
    I'm always itchy! Shiny metal things...MUST HAVE.

    But my desire for the RL was more about the total package, content, build, value and style. The TL purchase was based on it was new, hot and grabbed attention. That formula goes out of fashion faster for me. But still...shiny, metal and I am awake all night.

    :P
  • acuratacurat Member Posts: 87
    You guys are my kind of people. Smart and analytical with an aesthetic side to boot, able to have some fun at your own expense, and of course, excellent taste in cars. ;)

    I agree with all that's been said, including the prediction of another itch in a few years' time. Funny, I usually get buyer's remorse after spending serious dough. Not now!! Can't wait for the morning commute in the RL, heaven help me...

    ,,,and someone is going to get a honey of a 2004 TL off the dealer's lot. Hope they didn't wholesale it! :surprise:
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    .. all of the positive things people here are saying about the RL.

    However, if Acura is listening, serve mine up with a real V8, an adjustable sport suspension (steal PASM from Porsche if necessary) and a 6-speed short throw manual that you can steal for the 550i 6-speed. I would prefer RWD, but will take SH-AWD if you can engineer a little more "SH" into the suspension to go along with that extra quarter ton of weight over the TL.

    All I'm asking is that Acura endow the real thing with the performance and sportiness that their marketing department initially advertised. I really would love an alternative to the 550i 6-speed to at least consider. Don't we already have enough E-class, A6, S80 and LS/GS luxo-cruisers for those who think a sporty drive is listening to ESPN on XM radio?? ;)
  • tamparltamparl Member Posts: 42
    acurat,

    Being we both came from 3rd Gen TLs to the RL, I am curious what was the 'closers' on your decision to get the RL over a new TL? I too am very impressed with the TL, but have been more of a critic to the TL as you. So I am curious what made you decide on the RL? And what have we shared in our opinion & observations do you agree with?

    I too love my commute now. And I don't get as heated in traffic anymore. The RL gives me the thrills when I want it, but it also keeps me happy when the roads / traffic are not cooperating.
  • acuratacurat Member Posts: 87
    I think the "closers" in comparison with the TL were build quality, safety (4000 pounds, advanced compatibility engineering, SH-AWD, ACC/CMBS, 5 stars on every test), more sophisticated appearance, seating for a family of 5, a certain exclusivity compared with the ubiquity of the TL, impressive integration of all the technology, and very little tradeoff in terms of performance and maneuverability. I kept seeing the occasional RL on the freeway and it was always a head-turner. After reading these posts and some other reviews (especially cnet.com), I drove the RL again with a more receptive attitude and finally realized it is a tremendous value, especially for the price. The difference between the bristling-with-tech 2006 RL CMBS-PAX and the NavTraffic-equipped base 2007 TL was, in the end, only about $8K; even less versus the Type-S boy-racer version. Not to mention that my wife finally said, "Oh, go for it, honey." Ding-ding-ding-ding-ding!! Now that I'm driving it, I agree that the RL is serene in traffic, which I'm generally not. It gives me hope for redemption of my Type-A personality. There's also the not-too-distant redesign of the TL to consider. I'm sure it'll be a great car...for my son. :P
  • tamparltamparl Member Posts: 42
    Well great minds think alike. Your post reads as if it were my own post. It sounds like we went through nearl identical AcuraAnalysis in our choice to slide into an RL from our TLs. Oh, and the wifey sounds like a keeper. Does she have a sister?

    ;)
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    "There's also the not-too-distant redesign of the TL to consider."

    Yep. The 4G TL is estimated to have 300+hp and AWD. I agree with habitat- the RL needs to have a V8, sportier suspension option and a manual tranny. Otherwise, its sales will continue to dwindle.
    RL is a great value but Acura really needs to step up its "flagship" to remain competitive in the market.

    Congrats and enjoy your new ride ;)
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    Found this on TOV:

    Automotive News Quotes President of HRA, Suggests Acura's Ready for V8s

    Date: December 11, 2006 11:55
    Submitted by: Jeff
    Source: Automotive News
    Credibility Rating: Not Specified

    In a story released early this morning on Automotive News' website (you'll need a subscription to read it), several cherry picked quotes are attributed to Hirohide Ikeno, President of Honda R&D Americas, Inc. (HRA). The general indication is that Acura executives are (finally) considering extending their drivetrain family beyond the realm of 4-cylinders and V-6s and specifically mentions a V-8 as a clear possibility (V-10s are already a certainty). Mr. Ikeno was quoted as saying that it's important for Acura to have larger engines available, and that he's "pushing for it". Mr. Ikeno was also said to have indicated that Acura would be dropping some hints of "its new direction" at the Detroit show, with no further elaboration.

    The author of the article spoke to Mr. Ikeno last week "during a reception for the opening of Honda's advanced design studio in Pasadena, Calif." If by "reception" they mean "open bar", then there were probably more than a few interesting gems slipped into casual conversation that evening.

    Despite the fact that the article reads a little bit like a campaign ad or a movie poster ("...Hilarious!!!..." "...uplifting..." "...trustworthy."), and there seems to be a lot of stitching together of thoughts, we think that the story is legit.

    Now I'll offer a little bit of TOV perspective. While we were at the LA Auto Show a few weeks ago, we spoke to a good number of Acura and Honda folks and when we asked the Acura people about what sort of stuff to expect from Acura at the Detroit show, the responses were anything but consistent. One person we asked (who may or may not be involved in the NSX project) told us that there'd be "nothing much, really", while others responded that we would see "really cool stuff. You'll definitely want to be there."

    In the past, anybody and everybody associated with Acura or Honda would quickly dismiss and shun any talk about motors with cylinder counts greater than 6, and punctuate their responses with reminders that V-8s were unnecessary and inefficient. Ask the same sort of questions today and the nature of the response is completely different. The air of denial has all but vanished at Acura today - the response to the ages old "You guys really need a V8" comment is now generally a subtle nod of agreement, perhaps coupled to a muted "yeah, I know...". As if to say "we know, we're working on it. Now let's talk about what we have now." Takeo Fukui's V-10 announcement several years back probably helped matters along, but for a while even after that some of the Acura folks still acted as if that announcement was never made.

    Will we see a V8 offered in an Acura soon? It depends on what you mean by soon, but frankly it wouldn't surprise us to see it happening in the next 3 years or so. And let's face it - Acura may not be able to afford to wait much longer than that. Let's hope for more clues between now and the Detroit Auto Show.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "RL is a great value but Acura really needs to step up its "flagship" to remain competitive in the market."

    And, as further evidence of that true-ism, as far as I can tell, there are no other "flagships" so closely priced and directly compared to the sub-flagship model, as is the case of this entire forum.

    We don't have an LS460 vs. ES forum, a 7 series vs. 5 series vs. 3 series, an S-class vs. E-class vs. C class forum or even a M45 vs. G35 forum.

    I've been one of the few proponents of moving the RL to be more distinctive and a true performance sports sedan that could be competitively priced firmly in the $50-$55k+ range, if it offered a high quality, performance competitive alternative to the 550i 6-speed ($60k+ well equiped). Right now it's a tweener and not really anything more than an AWD, luxury upgraded, sports depleted TL. Which isn't a bad thing, just very limited in market appeal, as evidenced by diminimus sales volumes at below invoice pricing.

    If I want a luxury, slushbox equiped sedan, I can spend the next two weeks test driving $45-$60k cars every day and not hit them all. The E class, A6, Jaguar S, M45, Lexus GS and LS, BMW non-sport 5 series, Volvo S80, and on and on. But even though I am moments away from turning 50, I haven't lost the desire to have a sedan that is a pleasure to drive. And right now, with that criteria, I can have BMW line up a $50k 530i 6-speed, a $60k 550i 6-speed or a $90k M5 6-speed and have pretty much EVERYTHING worth considering at one dealership. Hello, Acura? Is anybody home in the strategic marketing department? That sure smells like a market segment you try to advertise to, how about delivering the goods. :)
  • kennyg8kennyg8 Member Posts: 225
    Habitat, while I agree with many of the things you said, and I certainly cannot speak on behalf of Acura or other posters on this forum, as a buyer of Acura products, I believe Acura's targeted customer-base consists primarily of people who are more value-minded and who place reliability and functionality as opposed to flashy, status-chasing customers.

    For example, RL and TL are at or near the top of their respective class representing high-value buys. Not only do these cars come pretty much fully equipped, their prices are very reasonable, when compared with similarly-equipped Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Lexus, etc. Further, while many of Acura's customers may also aspire for a car that is as sports-oriented as the more prestigous nameplates noted above, they are content enough with the performance level of their RL/TL for the prices they paid. Moreover, not everyone desires to drive a manual and, instead, prefers the convenience of your so-called slushbox for their daily commute. Thus, IMHO, this really comes down to the type of customers Acura wants to appeal to. As a current owner of Acura's TL and MDX (if I recall correctly), you may share some of my sentiments stated herein. True?

    If Acura can improve the qualities of their dealerships with respect to customer services such that they are on par with the prestigous nameplates, I believe Acura may attract even more customers who share the above-stated sentiments.
  • richbf2richbf2 Member Posts: 73
    I am in the processing of trading my ES in for a type S 07 M.T. Now, during the negotiation processing, i was asking the sales person about break-in period for manual. He said that for manual vehicles, they DO NOT :confuse: need to have an elaborate break-in. Just take your brand new type S out and race. I don't think this is right; i am very skeptical about his answer. What do you guys think? Please post your inputs. thanks
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Take my break in recommendation for what it's worth:

    For the first 800-1,000 miles:

    Do not exceed 4,000 rpms. Avoid full throttle acceleration. However, do not "lug" the engine either and shift into a higher gear too soon. Keep the "cruising" engine rpms varied between 2,200 to 2,500 on the low end and 4,000 on the upper.

    Avoid repeated short hops. Try to drive the car for a minimum of 10-15 minutes so that the engine oil and mechanical parts fully heat up. This helps everything expand and contract fully and "seat" properly. Unfortunately, the water temperature is NOT a good guage of this, as it heats up much quicker than the oil.

    No cruise control for extended drives at a constant speed / rpms.

    After that, you can let it rip. These are the recommendations I got from sources I trust - Porsche race team technician, Honda factory rep, BMW "Motorsport" mechanic. I applied them to my Honda S2000, Acura TL and 911S. While the TL may fall on the lower end of these other high performance engines, it's still worthy of proper break in, IMO.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    There is no doubt that both the TL and RL represent good values. But, IMO, one of the reasons the TL sells well and the RL doesn't is that there isn't much about the RL that induces real excitement and distinction from the TL. The TL does very well in the "entry level luxury performance sedan" segment where value is one of its strongest attributes. But the RL gets whacked in the "flaghip sedan segment", compared to Mercedes, Audi, Lexus, BMW, etc.

    IMO, the RL might do better if it put more space between itself and the TL, both in attributes and price. My suggestion that Acura target the 5-series was based partly upon my selfish interests, but also upon my belief that it afford the better market opportunity. Other than BMW, the other nameplates you mentioned really aren't that "sports oriented". They are luxury and prestige oriented. So, if Acura were to upscale the RL, I would think a sports/performance oriented approach would open more market share than simply another techno-crazy luxury offering like the self parking, butt massaging Lexus.

    And I am a realist. The BMW 550i 6-speed represents no more than 5% of all 5-series sales. So Acura offering 6 and 8 cylinder versions, with automatic and manual transmissions, and RWD with SH-AWD optional at different price points may be the best way to cover all bases.

    It's been 16 years since Acura introduced the $65,000 NSX at a time when the most expensive Lexus LS400 was $40,000. They shook up the automotive industry with such a bold offering and had Ferrari and Porsche shoppers taking a close look. I may be wrong, but I think that Acura still has what it takes to be a performance oriented alternative to BMW - at least with their "flagship".

    If they don't do something, I believe the RL will remain a car that is very competent and a good value, just not very well embraced by the general public. If I am not mistaken, Honda sold more "specialty", limited production, hand built S2000 roadsters in the second and third year of their model run than Acura has sold "mainstream" RL sedans in theirs.

    Maybe I should get one of my hedge fund buddies to pony up the funds to commission a run of 5,000 "Habitat-edition" RL's: 425 hp 7,500 rpm V8's with your choice of a 6-speed manual or paddle shifting DSG with RWD. And a Porsche inspired PASM adjustable suspension. Price $60,000. No one would confuse that with a TL. And nothing would touch it in the luxury performance sedan segment short of a $90,000 BMW M5. Orders?
  • tamparltamparl Member Posts: 42
    I agree the TL and RL are great values in the respective segments they compete. However, I do not believe the RL, although Acura's Flagship is a head to head competitor with other flagships. I do not believe it is intended to be.

    I also believe that the TL likely 'steals' some of the RL market by being such a great value and similar content. It offers a buy to 'almost' get RL content at a TL price.

    But I do not believe that is the primary reason the TL outsells the RL. One is simply marketing. The TL has been toubted as a BMW 3 chaser. The created excitement for the TL. It simply has more marketing and media attention than the RL. But further, the TL competes in the $30-40K bracket. The RL in the $40-50K bracket. There are simply more buyers in the TL bracket, and the TL did well in that market. The RL is an enigma in the $40-50K market. It is a flagship, but not marketed as a competitor to flagship (perhaps an alternative). There are fewer buyers in the bracket so the competition is fierce for those fewer buyers. With Acura's feeble marketing of the RL, these fewer buyers are naturally more likely to go with a recognized luxury product (BMW, Lexus, Audi, Jaguar and even Infinity).

    Although I think the RL is a tough to applaud at 50K, I think it is a no brainer in the lower 40K range. Problem is, people just don't KNOW the RL should be on the list to compare.

    When I look at the efforts to market the Honda LEGEND in the world market, it appears Honda has truely made attempts to market and educate buyers of the LEGEND's attributes (especially SHAWD). And looking at this car selling worldwide, they may actually be achieving the sales totals they desire. But as to why the RL is such an enigma in the US may be that the US (and ACURA corporate) have set higher expectations for US sales then what Honda has set for global sales expectations.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I generally agree with your assessment.

    Although I'm not sure Acura would want to hear that the "lower $40k" price range is where they have to price the RL to be a market success. It begs the question of "why bother" when the TL-S is already in the high $30k range.

    I still think there is room out there for a $50-$60k Acura flagship. I have plenty of friends and associates that are in that target market, but find Infiniti to be too funky, Lexus to be too stodgy. They end up in BMW, Mercedes or Audi but could easily be drawn to the Acura brand.
  • acuratacurat Member Posts: 87
    You hit it on the head. "Legend" is the thing that is missing from Acura's marketing plan. They have a truly great car in the RL. Read cnet.com's review of the '06. The US is populated with baby-boomers who fondly (and somewhat lustfully) recall the Legend from the '80s and '90s. Rename RL the Legend, and my bet is that first-year sales will quadruple. Rename the TL the Vigor and...I'm not so sure about that one.

    Although I bring home a nice chunk of bacon, I would never in a million years consider spending $50K on a car. It's a depreciating asset. So for me, the value proposition of a fine machine like the RL becomes compelling in the low $40s, yet irrelevant above that price point. No car, present or future, would tempt me to drop $50 large. I have three kids to put through college, among them two daughters who'll need to be married off. Plus I've been promising my low-maintenance wife a new kitchen for 10 years and she is finally going to collect.

    And though my first cars were muscle-bound V-8s (an ugly brown 1969 GTO, wrapped around a telephone pole one snowy night, replaced by a Boss Orange 1969 AMX), I am by now sufficiently "green" that I would never consider a V-8. In fact, the one thing that bugs me about the RL vs. the TL is its 20% greater thirst for Chevron Supreme.

    Perhaps I am an enigma--but there are millions out there like me. More of them should be driving Acuras instead of having their butts massaged by an overpriced Toyota! Acura's marketing department needs to figure this out.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Acurat,

    O.K., let me take you back a bit to make my point, which I'd be very interested in your response to.

    It's December 22, 1993. The 1994 Acura Legend GS Sedan that you are "lusting" after is sitting right there on the showroom floor. Actually, there are two of them. One's an automatic and one's a 6-speed manual transmission. 3.2 liter V6, 230 hp, FWD. Bluetooth - what's that? Navigation - what's that? ....

    Base MSRP for either, $41,495. Take your pick.

    _________________________________________________________

    Flash forward 13 years:

    "So for me, the value proposition of a fine machine like the RL becomes compelling in the low $40s, yet irrelevant above that price point. No car, present or future, would tempt me to drop $50 large. I have three kids to put through college, among them two daughters who'll need to be married off. Plus I've been promising my low-maintenance wife a new kitchen for 10 years and she is finally going to collect."

    I sincerely applaud your prudence and would never suggest that someone spend more on a car than they are comfortable with. However, it's now 2006/7, 13 years since the FWD 6-cylinder Legend GS sold for "the low 40's". The LS400 sold for $50k at that time. If you just inflated that Legend GS price at a nominal 3% per year, it's the equivalent of a $61,000 price tag today. And, coincidentally, the LS460 now runs around $70k.

    It's wonderful to think that one can get a 2006 RL with 300hp, SH-AWD, and techno do-dads out the wazoo for hardly any more money than what they would have paid for the 1994 Legend GS sedan.

    But, speaking as someone who would like to see Acura around for another 13 years, I sincerely believe they need to reclaim a more upscale position in the market, at least with their "flagship". If a $55,000-60,000 400+hp V-8 RWD Legend GS is not within your comfort zone, then you still have one hell of a good deal in a $35k TL to choose from. Which, by the way, in every single way is a far superior car, performance and luxury wise, than the 1994 $41k Legend GS that you lusted after.

    P.S. Check out the price of that Sub Zero today compared to when your wife started asking for it 10 years ago. No real improvements, but at least a 50% higher price. Too bad Acura doesn't make refrigerators. ;)
  • acuratacurat Member Posts: 87
    Habitat,

    Your economic argument is correct and with the assumption of 3% inflation even a tad conservative. Although I checked your math on my trusty HP 12C--another example of 1980s technology that has gotten way more affordable--and got a present value of $73,426 for a $50K price tag after 13 years at 3%. Of course that only strengthens your argument. (I had a rich GF who drove a Legend when I was in school in the late '80s...didn't realize until now just HOW rich!) :surprise:

    That said, the value equation for all sorts of consumer goods, especially cars and electronics, has shifted dramatically over the decades. You just get more for your money. Moore's Law and all that. Currency fluctuations and consumer interest rates also play into the affordability question.

    The bigger marketing issue for Acura is how to differentiate themselves from Honda in the way that Lexus (and to a lesser degree, Infiniti) has done. They clearly do need a more upscale positioning to compete for the trophy-car dollar.

    The other issue is that of branding of individual models. I think that throwing away the legend that underlies the Legend in favor of a bland alphanumeric was not a good move, and it is entirely reversible.

    The TL was the best car I'd ever owned, but now it's a case of been there, done that. I'm happy to give you a shot at a $55-60K V-8 Legend as long as they keep offering a sturdy and high-tech V-6 beauty in the $40s for me. I do gloat secretly when I pass by LS460 owners, knowing I got 95% of what they have for $25-30K less. And more subtle, enduring exterior styling to boot.

    And about that Sub-Zero--have you priced kitchen cabinets lately?? :cry:
  • tamparltamparl Member Posts: 42
    I think we all have very good arguments here. I think we all are very cleaver, decisive and informed buys. I think we all are brilliant to have decided upon the Acura RL. ;)

    But I think we are the minority of the buying public. And I think Acura may rely just too much that it's buyers will be as dilligent as we were in our purchase decision. Which is why I think Acura needs to market better and get the word out on how good the RL is, as we had to find out, with our own due dilligence. Lucky for Acura we searched so.

    But even as prudent i was in my decision to trade from my TL to the RL I can tell you how marketing affected me. I never drove the RL when I bought my TL. Simply put, they looked similar on paper and not enough intrigued me to justify the cost differential. Therefore I never drove the RL and just bought the TL. Some missed expectations with the TL and then the low 40K price point on the RL enticed me to drive the RL. I was so pleased with the RL over my TL, I likely would have bought it instead of the TL in the 1st place....when it sold for 50K!

    Taking this a step further. Take an Acura RL and an Acura LEGEND side by side (same car / generation)....I would have looked at the LEGEND 1st. And to be totally truthful, when I speak to my overseas associates, I tell them I have a Honda LEGEND. The IMMEDIATELY recognize what car I have. When I tell family, friends, and AMERICAN associates I have an Acura RL, they recognize the Acura brand, but have no idea which model it is.

    I presonally hate the letter naming conventions used by Acura. With Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Jaguar etc, the general public does not care what model it is as long as it is a Mercedes or BMW, etc. But I do not believe that philosophy supports Acura. As much as I love my RL, I still would PREFER to own an Acura LEGEND over an Acura RL. And as mentioned prior, I even prefer Honda LEGEND over Acura RL.

    Marketing is a funny, fickle thing.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I think you may be making a little too much of marketing. In my opinion, when the new RL was introduced, it was heavily marketed as a luxury "sports" sedan. Television ads started with SH-AWD and 300 horsepower as the prominant features. Trouble was, on the sport side, the RL never got the enthusiast crowd and automotive press excited. On the substance side, no one puts the RL in the same performance category as the 5-series, certainly not the 550i.

    Have you EVER seen a television ad for the Honda S2000? It is a specialty car that took on the $50k Porsche Boxster and, by many enthusiasts measures, won.

    I believe that most consumers know about the RL and certainly all enthusiasts know about the S2000. The RL delivers a lot of value, for sure, but fell short of some expectations on performance. The Honda S2000 overdelivered. That's how I see it.
  • kennyg8kennyg8 Member Posts: 225
    Tamparl, while marketing may affect the public's perception of the car, I generally agree with Habitat that one cannot make too much of marketing. In the final analysis, substance will/should prevail over form, once the advertised car has been test driven.

    Indeed, what's in a name ... that which we call a Legend would smell so sweet? Although I don't know much about the Honda Legend, based on my quick review of this article from the following website
    (http://world.honda.com/news/2006/4060228Geneva2006/)
    there is little difference between the Legend and RL, except for night vision and right-hand drive.

    I think we all agree that the RL is a competent car with a high value quotient, but when compared with some of the prestigous nameplates (as mentioned), it pales a bit in the high performance and ultra luxury areas. But that is perfectly okay, particularly if you are happy enough with RL performance/luxury level, given the price you paid.

    I also agree with Habitat that Acura can produce, and is highly capable of doing so, the so-called "Habitat-Edition" RL with his proposed specs. There is a market for the high rollers who go after ultra high performance and luxury.
    However, it may require much R&D, and at the end, whether it is successful will be judged by the number of cars sold and the profits made (if any). Does Acura want to take a gamble, just like it did with the NSX? Hmm ...
  • tamparltamparl Member Posts: 42
    I do agree with you both. But my point is not as much as the vehicle itself proving it's worth against competitors by exceeding the performance benchmarks of the flagship segment, as much as Acura getting the RL into the minds of the general buying public. Enthusiasts will seek out the performance options and carefully compare, than the less demanding (performance) buying public (I include myself in that). That larger group of buyers will be drawn by image, perception and product acceptance (and it must be a good product), but performance may not be the apex for a majority of these buyers. Admittingly, I do not hold the RL as critically as both of you (I could not care less what the 10th of a second performance numbers are, or th g's on the skidpad. I do CARE how the car feels by the seat of my pants), but I dismissed the RL when I made my TL purchase, simply because I did not know much about the car other than it had similar content to the TL and was 10-15K more. I think that buying group qualifies a good chunk of the buying public, and I do put a lot of weight to marketing to get their attention. If Acura wants acknowlegement in the 50K+ range, I think they need to make the public more aware of what the RL has to offer as thier flagship, AND the RL would have to be improved to justify a 50K+ pricetag (IMHO). But I do not see Acura doing that as of yet (maybe in the future with stories of v-8 development). And if Acura decides (for now) not to be in that market, I think they need to change the marketing to improve upon the perception of what a really great car the RL is at its current pricepoint. I believe that would sell more RLs even with its current performance attributes. But I do not think enough people know what the RL is and capable of. On the enthusiasts board I am surpised how many 'informed' TL owners have stepped up to the RL and are suprised how good it is. And that is Acura's own buyers!

    The type of vehicle that will gain Acura for the high end performance enthusiasts is another NSX product, with a bigger engine. That performance technology and impression would eventually trickle down into the more sedate sedan & flagship products. Or perhaps a true $50-60K flagship will rise over the RL, but that I doubt.

    But in the 40-50K bracket, I think the RL is an exceptional vehicle. If it were higher end, 50K+ a more powerful (and likely less efficent) vehicle, it would not have been in my cross hairs. Heck, I nearly missed owning this fine vehicle once already. :)

    Again, I agree with you both about the RL's standing in relation to what it could be. But from my angle, I'd settle for it just as it is, and I think more people would also if they only knew and were inspired enough to get their butt into the seat and drive one. :P
  • jkgreer2jkgreer2 Member Posts: 42
    I want to give you a 'heads up' for Xmas 2008, in case you listen to our ramblings. My next car will have: a silky smooth V-8 (BMW M-3/Lexus IS-F?), short-throw 6 sp. manual (like S2000), SH-AWD, 4 doors or 2 doors and folding back seats, adjustable suspension w/'sport' option (like MDX), sun-roof (my TL sunroof is fine), bullet-proof reliability (my Hondas & TL meet that requirement), and <$55 K (undercut 2008 M-3). If Lexus makes it, I will switch (IS-F?). If Acura make it, I will buy. Hope your workshop produces the Car in a year. To all sports car lovers visiting these forums, Safe Holidays & Happy New Year!
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    I agree generally with what you are saying. Getting an RL in the low 40's is a tremendous value.

    It seems however, that if Acura does not change the RL in 09 to be a staunch competitor in the 50-60k range as opposed to changing its marketing plan to improve upon the perception of what a great value it is- to me- seems like a celebration of mediocrity.

    The sales figures for the RL are dismal. IMHO- it's not entirely due to Acura's marketing plan. If people want luxury they will go Lexus GS or MB E. If folks want performance, they will go Infinti M and BMW. If folks want a mix they might go Acura. The problem with the RL is that it is in a segment that requires having an optional V8.

    At some point, I will be looking at the 50-60k range for a sedan and I would like to see Acura offer something substantive in this market.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "But from my angle, I'd settle for it just as it is, and I think more people would also if they only knew and were inspired enough to get their butt into the seat and drive one."

    You may be right, that Acura could increase RL sales with an all out blitz to try to get more prospective buyers give it a chance. But I think the increase would be nominal.

    Acura can up marketing dollars for the RL by millions to "toot it's own horn". But the verdict is out, and the automotive press, early adaptors and general enthusiasts didn't fall all over themselves over the RL. Certainly not the way they did over the S2000 or even the little brother TL, with it's 2004 redesign. And let's look at that for a moment - the previous generation TL was a fine car, but really not much more than a gussied up Accord. When the 2004 TL came out, a much more BMW looking aggressive exterior style, a tremendously refined interior, a much more potent engine and suspension, and even an available 6-speed. According to my dealer, I'm one of about 10-15% of TL buyers that bought a 6-speed. HOWEVER, as soon as Acura offered it, along with the other performance upgrades, every car magazine in the rack had a cover story and road test on it. Bingo, Acura was no longer spending big bucks to toot it's own horn, everybody else was doing it for them.

    If you put an RL next to a non-sport 530i automatic, you probably have comparable performance. But a lot of those 5 series are sold to people whose perception of it being the "ultimate driving machine" was formed from accolades from the automotive press testing a 550i 6-speed. With the present RL, Acura has nothing to get the blood boiling among the enthusiast crowd.

    Another point - when that lustworthy Legend GS 6-speed was being sold at $41k in 1994, Acura had a $15-18k Integra, and the non-event $25k Vigor. Period. Very little overlap. As of last year the lineup had expanded to an RSX, TSX, TL and RL all compressed into an even tighter (in real dollars) price range. Acura spent a lot of time in the last 13 years focused on price points that were right in Honda's sweet spot, rather than competing with the Lexus GS and LS segments.

    It is an anomoly to me that Acura deemed that the could sell a $41k car in 1993/4, but not a $60k car in 2006/7. In many ways, I think Acura has much more real engineering talent than does Lexus. Lexus has mastered the ultra reliable, ultra luxurious, ultra techno do-dadded, BUICK. BMW is the worldwide sales leader in the luxury market and they are performance oriented. Lexus has pretty much said, "we can't compete", and instead took on Mercedes. That leaves a market opportunity for Acura, IMO, that they seem hesitent to pounce on.
  • taxesquiretaxesquire Member Posts: 681
    Lexus has mastered the ultra reliable, ultra luxurious, ultra techno do-dadded, BUICK. BMW is the worldwide sales leader in the luxury market and they are performance oriented. Lexus has pretty much said, "we can't compete", and instead took on Mercedes. That leaves a market opportunity for Acura,

    Well-said - but I think Nissan/Infinity has admirably and ably sought to fill that market. Acura seems to have started to do so, but tapered off to a middle-of-the-road type of philosophy.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "Well-said - but I think Nissan/Infinity has admirably and ably sought to fill that market."

    No offense to Infiniti owners, but I don't think they are much of a factor in the "flagship" category of luxury performance sedans. The "Q" sells in volumes that make the RL look like a hot car and the "M" designers are in serious need of some Prozac. I don't think it's sales are anything to write home about either. None of those cars offer a manual transmission and the kind of serious driving dynamics and handling of a 530i, let alone a 550i 6-speed.

    The G35 seems to sell well and matches up better with it's competition. But the marketplace has relegated Infiniti to near insignificance in the higher end market.
  • taxesquiretaxesquire Member Posts: 681
    I forgot about the Q - guess that says something right there - but the M is a great car. Handles well, great accelleration and a nice interior.

    You're right that it doesn't offer a manual tranny - of course the RL doesn't offer a manual either. At least the M is RWD.
  • jdelabrejdelabre Member Posts: 57
    I just purchased a 07 Silver TL-S Auto. What a fun fantastic car. A month ago we had a 12" snow storm. After they plowed most of the snow, the TL-S got around just fine. I don't think AWD is needed unless you do a lot of driving in snow. I was suprised. Last winter I was driving a $40,000 loaded 4 door Limited Tundra. Just my 2 cents. I was worried the TL-S wouldn't get around in the snow, but it did. :)
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    This is supposed to be a comparison between the TL and RL. How about we meet up in Acura RL, Acura TL and/or Acura TL-S to continue these conversations about the individual vehicles.

    See you there!
  • uglybearuglybear Member Posts: 26
    I don't think RL is up to competing with BMW 5. It seems more competitive to Audi A6 - FWD/AWD based car which handles similarly. What RL lacks is not V8 really, but rather list of nice small features that make car 'luxury'. Nicer leather, rain sensor, 6sp auto, heated steering wheel, 10 ways or more seats, 8 way passenger seat, heads up display, night vision.

    However, Honda needs to work on V6 as well - torque peaks at too high rpm, 530i seems more lively even when it has less hp and torque. Besides, 18mpg EPA is a joke. Only Infiniti does worse with V6.

    Infiniti seems to want to take on BMW with sporties RWD offerings.

    BMW may cost more than RL, but you won't be feeling that you need to replace your car in 3 or 4 years. You probably will keep the car for 7-8 years and still enjoying it. I was extremely happy with my '97 M3 5sp for 8 years and I stll regret that I sold it. I'll take RL on one more test drive though, I am still undecided if I should take 530xi.
  • billyperks1billyperks1 Member Posts: 151
    Bear, I am shopping for the same cars along with the GS350 and A6.The A6 is joke, the 3.2 engine with the all wheel drive feels slower than my 99 Millenia L.I am taking it off my list, the 4.2 engine is the way to go but it is out of my budget.It's neck and neck between the GS and RL, the 530xi optioned out like the GS and RL is appproaching near mid fifties near sixties in terms of price.For now, I will just play the waiting game and see where prices and interest rates goes in the next few months.
  • legendpaullegendpaul Member Posts: 2
    I so agree with your point about the letter desigantion that Acura now gives their cars. As a former 2 time Acura Legend owner, when I said I drove an Acura Legend, almost everyone knew what I was driving. They now ask me what I drive, and I respond an Acura TL, and they look at me like I am speaking a foreign language. As much as I enjoy my TL, I do miss the responses I use to get when I said I had an Acura Legend. The funny thing about the letter monikers, the thought was to draw the recognition to the Acura brand name rather than a particular model. I think if Acura really did a survey of average drivers, I think they would find they have lost some of the name recognition they once use to enjoy. I truly feel this has hurt Acura in the upscale market. I think the marque now attracts more former Acura owners than new buyers. I wish Acura would go back to being a leader in this area, rather than a follower of BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, and Audi. Just my take.
  • carfan28carfan28 Member Posts: 43
    Due to a dealer incentive from 3/1/07- 4/30/07 of $3500 the 2007 RL with navigation- Tech Package can be purchased in the $42K range- I've heard lower in SoCal. Cost difference between the the TL and RL is getting closer.
  • kennyg8kennyg8 Member Posts: 225
    I think the difference has remained pretty much the same as last year, since incentives were also given then. If you compare the TL-S against the RL (07 models), then the range becomes narrower.
  • carfan28carfan28 Member Posts: 43
    It's a great car. Best car I've ever owned.

    I had the TL for 3 1/2 years. I liked it a lot. It has a more sporty ride and is vey quick.

    RL is more luxurious. Nicer leather, real wood all over the interior, smoother ride, quieter cabin, better paint job. No torque steer due to Sh-AWD system.
  • iceneedleiceneedle Member Posts: 8
    I just bought an RL Tech Package 3 days ago. I had a 2004 TL which had 55,000 miles. I'm very disappointed with the RL sounds system and interior noise level compared to the TL. I'm hoping it's something wrong with this particular car which can be fixed.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Did you test drive the RL beore you bought it? :confuse:

    I don't mean to marginalize your complaint, but I just don't get how the hell someone "discovers" an inferior sound system and road noise after a purchase. Whenever I've taken my 2004 TL in for service, there is always a salesman willing to give me a test drive of the RL. Even had one as a loaner once or twice.

    Perhaps this should be a lesson to all, test drive BEFORE you buy. My wife won't even let me buy a pair of khakis without trying them on.
  • iceneedleiceneedle Member Posts: 8
    Yes, I did test drive one (a 2007 RL Tech package) and it sounded great and was quiet (albeit, not this particular car). That's all the more reason why I'm so surprised by this. I'm interested in knowing if anyone else has seen this.
  • kennyg8kennyg8 Member Posts: 225
    Check the tire pressure first. If overinflated, it causes more road noise. Adjust the sound system tonal controls; I am quite sure that the RL's system is even better than the TL's, even though the latter already has a fantastic one.
  • iceneedleiceneedle Member Posts: 8
    I have played around with setting the tone controls. I've tried flat equalization (the default) and boosting treble and bass a bit. I don't see any improvement.

    It sounds distorted. I'll check the tire pressure, but they're really loud.

    This car is much noisier inside than my 2004 TL.

    I've already complained to the dealer and I'm waiting to hear back from them.
This discussion has been closed.

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