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Toyota Highlander Hybrid MPG-Real World Numbers

1235789

Comments

  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    In general, assuming your HH is well broken in, like 10K miles? Assuming it has tires not heavier than 34-lbs each and inflated to at least 35-psi. Further assume that ambient temperature is at least 60+ F degrees. Then the simplest trick, when you press down on the accelerator, is to keep the Power Meter needle within the band of stripes. If the HH has a strong charge (7-8 bars, Green), it will get rolling over flat terrain and pick up to 25-MPH at a decent clip on full-electric mode. If it has only 6 bars (Blue), it will get rolling too but not as fast. After that, you can decide whether to drive the car yourself or put it into CRUISE.

    When the temperature is down below 60-F, the ICE comes on more and the electric run become more difficult. Running the heater may have something to do with this.

    If we have to start from a traffic light up an overpass, then forget the slow start. Just keep the needle at around the 10KW area. You will have to visualise this yourself by estimating where the 10KW marker would be. The car will shoot up the overpass at a decent clip and yet not burn too much gas. If the HH has a full charge (7-8 bars), the batteries will kick in to boost the power and that saves even more gas. As you shoot up the hill, slowly ease off on the accelerator as you approach the crest and as you reach the posted speed. On the way down, you can use the regenerative braking to recharge the batteries to set up for more subsequent electric runs.

    If we have to start from a dead stop up a steep hill, then we just step on it. Not pedal to the metal but certainly not gingerly either. The battery will kick in and the ICE will turn ON and the car will climb. If you have the 4WDi model, you will see the rear motor kicking in too. As long as the batteries are activated and working to boost the car up the hill, you are burning less gas.

    Hope these few tricks help a bit. Good luck and have fun trying them out.

    We have had frequent successes now starting from 0 and accelerate to 40-MPH on full-electric over flat terrain. While we are able to drive some of our local flat roads at 45-MPH on full electric, we have never been able to accelerate all the way to 45-MPH on full electric over these flat roads.
  • 2006rsx2006rsx Member Posts: 32
    What does this mean : "tires not heavier than 34-lbs each"
    ?
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Ooops, forgot to clarify.

    I stated 34-lbs because the experience described in earlier post is based on a set of tires that weigh 34-lbs each. The weight, traction and stiffness and so on will impact MPG number. With the stock Goodyear Integrity tires, we were able to consistently see 27-29 MPG tank to tank last year. With the Goodyear Fortera, we are seeing no better than 25-27 tank to tank this year.

    The Integrity weighs in at 27-lbs each, softish, weak sidewall and does not seem to grip as well. The Fortera is 34-lbs each, hard, stiff sidewall and grips very well.

    I do not have proof that the tires are the reasons for the slight drop in MPG but it seems logical.
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Yet another clarification.

    Tires, how many passengers there are, how much cargo, break-in and such all impact when we can run on full-electricand for how long. Even stiff winds makes a difference. I saw this when reading the Lexus 400h forum earlier last year before buying the HH and I laughed about it. Now I am a convert to this tailwind and headwind theory :). A stiff tailwind will let this HH stay in full-electric mode up to 50-MPH. A stiff headwind will make this car run its gas engine at 30-MPH when it normally would be running on full-electric up to 40-MPh.

    We have noticed the following interesting relationships between full-electric performance and the battery charge (for our HH, yours may differ):

    (1) 7-8 bars charge.
    Can accelerate from 0 to 25 MPH at a safe clip after waiting at a STOP of traffic light. Gentle acceleration from 25 to 40 MPH possible on flat roads. Easily maintains constant speed of 40-MPH on flats. Sometimes, 45-MPH possible but ICE will kick in between 40 up to 45+. This is when we use the "pause and glide" to shut off the ICE just above 45 and then engage batteries at 45.

    (2) 6-bars charge.
    Usable acceleration from 0 to 25 MPH after waiting at STOP or traffic lights. Gentle acceleration to 30-MPH possible. Easily maintains constant speed of 30-MPH. Can accelerate to 35-MPH very slowly. Sometimes, it can maintain 35-MPH for long distance.

    (3) 5-bars of charge.
    Full electric start at STOP or traffic light difficult. Possible to accelerate 0-20 MPH but not often and requires extreme slow speed. Can maintain almost all speeds at or below 20-MPH easily. 25-MPH often possible.

    (4) 4-bars and under.
    Cannot accelerate at safe rate from stop at a STOP or traffic light. In parking area, able to move slowly from 0 to 10-MPH. Can maintain 15-MPH. Slightest hint of gas pedal "down" causes the gas engine to kick in.

    (5) 2-3 bars.
    Forget it. The ICE kicks in almost at every opportunity, even when sitting still.

    We are getting use to the car now and we know our local roads and freeways very well so it is now almost second nature in what we do. On some roads, we control the gas pedal ourselves while on others, we just use Cruise. It is hard to describe in all details exactly what we do to maximize gas mileage.

    In general, if we go slower and stay in CRUISE, the HH does a very good job of using the batteries to help. The good speed ranges for long full-electric run on Cruise seems to be 25, 30, 40. On roads that are fairly flat, the car is able to charge, run on electric, recharge and run on electric forever. 35 is OK but it seems to kick in the ICE to assist a bit too often. 45 is possible but the slightest hint of an uphill, even if it is a short hump, will bring in the ICE.

    FOr good gas mileage when the ICE must run, 55 and 60 seems the best. The ICE may run but the batteries kick in to help so it helps to save gas. At other speeds such as 65 and 70, the HH is no different than a V6 sedan but it still is better than most non-hybrid V6 and V8.

    I guess go slow is the key.
  • terry92270terry92270 Member Posts: 1,247
    Exactly.

    You are spewing 75%+ less poisons into the air, and saving, over what you would pay in another ICE the same size and power about 40% on gas. Yet you are not driving an electric cart, and have all the amenities a person could want....not a bad trade, eh? ;)
  • 2006rsx2006rsx Member Posts: 32
    Lighter tires and wheels SHOULD increase gas mileage and give better acceleration. I doubt if the "grip" or handling characteristics of the tire would affect mpgs at all. How much difference you'lll see in real-world mpgs with lighter tires is probably not very significant on such a heavy vehicle as a Hi-Hy. On something small & light like a sub-compact car, you could probably actually measure a change.
  • katzjamrkatzjamr Member Posts: 146
    thanks for the insightful and accurate postings on mpg and its relationship to the battery charge. i especially agree with the technique of going as fast as possible up a steep hill if you have to start from a stop at the bottom. also people should remember short trips where the ice is not warmed up are a mpg killers no matter what outside temp. the cool weather in the northwest has lowered my mpg, even tho the 400h is garaged. (its one reason i look forward to spring) on cool but not icy days i sometimes turn the heating system completely off and just use heated seats for warmth. it gives me at least one mpg better than normal over the same course.
  • longislandhhlongislandhh Member Posts: 2
    Has anyone ever removed the 3rd row of seats to see what effect this would have on mileage?
  • terry92270terry92270 Member Posts: 1,247
    You mean removing them, reducing the weight by 75 pounds?

    Yes, a buddy of mine did that. He calculated he increased his MPG by .000015587545 :P
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    We considered this but decided it is not worth the effort. Removing the seat for more cargo room makes sense if you really need that extra room. We certainly can use that extra bit of floor and seat cushion space at times. Doing it for MPG is probably not worth it.

    Do remember that just by driving a little slower and using the Cruise judiciously, the car gives good MPG numbers. Of course, now that Winter looms before us, I expect to see our mileage drop another 1 to 2 MPG. When it drops below 60, the shorter drives really eats into the MPG. Longer drives at constant speed still holds decent.

    If you do take it off, please tell us if it really saves any gas.
  • terry92270terry92270 Member Posts: 1,247
    Goodness!

    Please! Everyone. Discussion about removing components, like the seats, is silly!!

    The net gain will be so small as to be mostly un-measureable! Does anyone else think this line of discussion is totally too anal :confuse:
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Especially when the answer seems to be coming back thatthere are better reasons you might take out the seats than to try and improve fuel mileage.

    Remember that not everyone may think things through on the same level as everyone else. And sometimes you never know until you ask!
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    I concur that it is a legitimate question. Not "anal" at all :).

    When this forum started, a bunch of HH early-adapters (owners) signed on to share ideas. Most early-adapters were keenly interested in the technology and wanted to make it work at peak efficiency in order to achieve maximum MPG. We were looking at everything and anything to eke out that extra 0.2 MPG. Remember the oil-heater idea to cut down the initial 30-second burn upon start-up? That burn still costs us 0.2-0.3 MPG each time we turn ON the car. It adds up after a while. Several owners purchased engine-block heaters from Canada and installed them onto their HH's. I do not remember if anyone reported an increase in MPG but that was how far some of us went :).

    So please ask away! The late-adapters may yet have more insight to share.
  • utahsteve1utahsteve1 Member Posts: 1
    I just purchased a new 2007 hybrid Highlander and broke it in over the holiday weekend.
    Drove approximately 1350 total miles.
    First 800: varied speed from 45-70 on 2 lane highway with lots of hills in rural areas. Averaged 29.1 by the dispaly and on paper.
    Second 550: set cruise control at 70 on interstate and averaged 28.7.
    This seems good to me. Is anyone getting better/worse mileage? :)
  • nsxwesnsxwes Member Posts: 84
    Sacramento to San Diego and back at between 70 and 75 mph returned a bit over 28 mpg.

    Wes
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Just to keep this conversation going :)....

    We are in Northern CA by the ocean and got a hair better and then worse all in half a tank over mostly flat terrain. Ranged from 29.9 to now 27.2 with ambient temperature hovering about 35-37. This is a GIGANTIC surprise because we did no better than 24-mpg last year in same weather condition.

    We finally increased tire psi from 35 (last November) to 38 this November. Our tires are rated at 44-mpg max. We noticed that driving around town, the higher psi can yield 27 mpg even with temperature at 35-F. Several times, when we came off the freeway after a long 30-mile run and drove the same in-town route with temperature around 35-F, our mileage reached up to 29-mpg. This is mileage of the in-town loop only, excluding the freeway run so the 27 vs 29 is a fair comparison. The numbers were read off the on-board display.

    We also noticed that fresh off the freeway, the HH would behave almost as it did under summer condition even when temperature was down to 35-F. It ran on full electric when it should, it used mixed power when it should and so on. This does not happen when we just start off our driveway and drive the same in-town loop. Fresh off our driveway, the engine runs and runs and drinks gas for the entire loop.

    Either the engine needs 30+ miles of freeway to heat up or it is the tires that need that much driving to "puff" up. Or may be a combination of both.

    Last year, we had no such luck. In town or freeway, we could do no better than 24-mpg in 35-F weather. It even dropped to 22-mpg at times. We will keep the psi @ 38 to see if it helps with MPG all winter.

    After 15000 miles, this car still has a few surprises under the hood! :)
  • katzjamrkatzjamr Member Posts: 146
    i also remember some of those early members talking about taking off the roof rack to increase mpg making the car more streamlined.
  • energyeconenergyecon Member Posts: 16
    My "old" 2006 HH was destroyed in a head-on collision. The driver in the opposite lane lost brakes on a steep San Francisco hill and ploughed into my car. My wife who was driving was fine--the car did its job of protecting her. So we immedia5tely bought a new one to take advantage of the tax credit.

    The interesting part is altho the car is identically equipped it seems to get better mileage about 26 versus 24 in mixed city/hwy driving. It seems much more willing to run on electric than the old one did. Gas engine turns off sooner on warmup and engages less often at low speeds. Toyota does not admit changing the software (altho the MPG readout now appears on the multifunction display as noted in an earlier post).

    Does anyone know if they reprogrammed the software (or is it firmware)? It would seem easy enough for them to do that. For that matter, why couldn't they offer the driver an choice between economy mode and power mode via firmware?
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    I have been hearing the same about the late models. A colleague from Santa Cruz just bought one (September) and he drives HWY 17 to and from Silli Valley. He is getting 26 to 27 for the first 2000 miles! Toyota must have done something. I believe they will not admit that because each new model should theoretically be "better" than the previous. It has to do with "sales". This is where Toyota has to pay attention as other manufacturers slowly jump on the gas-electric hybrid bandwagon.

    Just like computers, Toyota needs to seriously consider offering software upgrades. It will not stop people from buying new Toyota models and it will actually establish long-term loyalty. They can offer a total of 2 to 3 upgrades (Mk I, II, III) and then declare a whole new "release" that comes only with new cars. They can offer some free and some paid upgrades as well. So this is a win-win situation for Toyota and their customers.

    Without software upgrades, what I will do is buy the next hybrid that is better than the HH regardless of manufacturers. I believe this is what most non-Toyota-diehard-loyaslists will do as well.
  • antaresvantaresv Member Posts: 1
    Hello! Just got my 2007 HiHy yesterday, the dealer was really nice in willing to send someone down from Prescott to Phoenix for delivery of the vehicle. It was a downhill drive and the gas mileage at time of delivery was about 28mpg.

    Driving to work today, I got 27mpg over 8 miles, 60%surface streets 40% highway.
  • typesixtypesix Member Posts: 321
    So how much energy and $ is consumed by using the block heater and is it less than energy and $ consumed by the HH if block heater was not used?
  • tswill2tswill2 Member Posts: 3
    Hi all - I bought my HiHy about a month ago,and now have about 1200 miles on it. I live In Ocala, FL in an area at about 100 feet elev. w//rolling hills.
    I just took a 45 mile (round trip) jaunt out into the rolling countryside north west of Ocala, and I noted that the temperature was 59°F w/ 5MPH headwind / tailwind, and about 1300 feet climbing (and the same descending - the destination was about 40 feet higher in elevation than the start). I reset my Avg MPG display to 0 at the beginning, and it read 40.3 when we got home! I was going 40 to 50 MPH and had to do about 20 stop and gos on the trip.
    I had read a article posted on the PriusUsers forum to the effect that they have a "stealth" mode at low speed where only the electric drive is operating, and at above 42 MPH they have found a "warp stealth" mode where although the engine is spinning, the electric is providing the only power, and there is 0 gas consumption. I have found it can be done with the HH too, and that is what I was doing when the grade wasn't too steep. A modified P&G. It worked!
  • damoosedamoose Member Posts: 4
    I agree that there is something wrong with the 06 HH.

    I have a 2006 HH FWD with the smaller dash display. The @#$% engine starts every time after I turn the key within 10 seconds... and then runs and runs and runs at a high rev and burns gas. AFTER driving for 20-30 minutes, the highlander will function normally... I know because I've been fortunate to drive a Prius extensively, and my sister rented a HH for a few days... neither vehicle has this problem. I'm not a lead foot... in the prius I get 52 highway, 59 city!!!

    In my Hybrid highlander I get 24 highway, 26 city. In the first 2000 miles it was far worse. :mad:

    My dealer promised the performance would improve with time, but now I'm at 18,000 miles with no change. I'm trying to call them right now. But I hate leaving messages.
  • 2006rsx2006rsx Member Posts: 32
    Vehicle has about 400 miles on it now. I filled the tank myself, and calculated the MPG at 24.2 ... the computer said 23.8 MPG. Not bad for the 1st tank, with mixed stop & go driving, and some 75 mph freeway driving. Lots of hills here in CT too, temperature has been 30-50 F, plus I'm not realy "trying" to save gas. I'm sure it will get better once broken-in.
  • tswill2tswill2 Member Posts: 3
    It's that 75mph bit that pulled your average down. Anything over 55 is going to cost you $.cc . I got 32mpg at 55mph, and 28 at 62. I'm sure a curve could be plotted and a cents per mph figure calculated if one was really anal about it. The hills tend to cancel out since the downhill mpg jumps way up. Short trips cost you in re-warm low mpg.
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Actually, 24 HWY and 26 CIty in your HH sounds real nice. A normal 2-ton SUV with an engine producing 268-hp like that of the HH will likely get no beter than 15? 17? 19?

    Please check your tire pressure too. Many of us have found 32-psi is no good for the HH's gas mileage. My HH runs on 37 psi this winter. Our winter mileage went up to around 26-27 even on cold days (30-F to 40-F). Do not exceed the tire rating though.

    Another tid bit peculiar to the HH is its "Idle Air Control System". The HH is designed to start the ICE running for 30-seconds to warm the oil, engine and catalytic converter each time we fire up the car. From what I learnt, the IACS regulates the idle speed valves as the engine warms to operating temperature. During this period, it learns the engine load and adjusts the valve accordingly to let us drive effectively as the enginer warms.

    You will notice that on a cold morning, it may run longer than 30 seconds after the first start-up. I have experienced it lasting as long as 40 seconds on very cold morning. But then it often also shuts off sooner than 30 seconds if the engine is already warm. THis happens when I do a quick run to the store for a few minutes.

    I have found that if I start the engine and drive off in a hurry, even with gentle touches on the gas, subsequent engine restart seems to keep the engine running longer. In fact, once it starts doing this, I will have a hard time rolling from a stop-sign or a traffic light on full electric. Even the gentlest touch on the gas brings in the ICE immediately. It is irritating when the ICE keeps running even when I am "trotoising" around a mall parking lot where the car would normally be running on full electric.

    When I am able to start the engine and gently ease it from rest, and there is time to cruise at low speed for a spell, the engine will shut off after its 30-second burn and seem to take a less "aggressive" approach from then on. Then I can roll off from a stop on full-electric either at a stop-sign or at a traffic light. I can also tortoise around a parking lot on stealth mode.

    I will venture a wild guess that the engine computer is probably learning my driving habit. If it thinks I am in the habit of starting and moving, even when I am not asking for a lot of power, it will run that ICE longer so the engine can respond. And it will also keep running the ICE each time I tap the accelerator to move from a stop just so there is power to meet the needs. But if it thinks I like to move real slow, it behaves less aggressively and will let me drive on full-electric up to 39-MPH on flat roads. My wife and I have experienced this so many times, we can forecast when it will happen.

    Once it enters the "aggressive" mode, it takes several slow start episodes for the computer to relearn my habit. I have not paid attention to counting the exact number of times before it relearns the "slower" mode. Let's coin it the "tortoise" mode :).

    I do not know if all this makes sense but hopefully it helps you some. For my wife and I, we are continuing to learn new things about how to drive this car, even after 24,000 miles.

    Good luck!
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Another thing about the ICE coming on the moment we start the car. This happens every time our traction battery is down to 2 bars (pink). The gas engine turns on immediately not only to heat up the engine, it is also desperately charging the battery packs.

    You can check the battery charge level on the NAV screen to see if this is the reason.

    This does not mean the batteries are defective, it may just be driving patterns. If the HH arrives at a parking location with 2 bars of charge left, it will run the ICE at the first opportunity to charge the batteries until it is at least 3 or 4 bars (blue).
  • damoosedamoose Member Posts: 4
    Thanks cdtrap for relaying your experiences, mine are identical... but here is where we disagree-

    For the engine to start and run for 'thirty seconds' every time you start the vehicle 'cold'...

    IS NOT NORMAL FOR A HYBRID.

    This happens in summer and winter, hot and cold, regardless of how charged the battery may be. The aggressive running of the ICE system in the first 5-20 minutes of driving is also...

    NOT NORMAL FOR A HYBRID

    The prius my parents own, and the 06 HH my sister rented for a week DO NOT HAVE THIS PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!! From reports in the topic, drivers of 07 HHs also do not have this problem, nor do they seem to experience a 'break in' period with their hybrid systems.

    Yes 24-26 is good for a hybrid, but I drive to maximize the gas mileage! Like I said, I was able to get 52-59 with my parents Prius despite living amongst massive hills and averaging 75 on the highway. If I drive 'normally', I get 23-21 in my hybrid. My first 2000 miles I averaged less than 19mpg, despite my best efforts to maximize the gas/electric.

    My dealer acknowledged the constant starting, and aggressive nature of the ICE system is not how the hybrids run, they apologized, but assured me this would go away as the mileage went up computer optimized etc etc etc. At 18,000 miles, this has yet to occur. My apt. with service is monday, I will relay my experience (positive or negative) later this week.
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Please do let us know what the dealer says, it will be nice to know if Toyota did tweak their software for the 2006 version of HH.

    We were all asking here in 2005 why it has to burn for 30 seconds upon start-up and not burn only when we need the ICE. May be Toyota has heard enough complaints from "early adpaters" that it changed the software and now runs the engine only when it needs to use the ICE.

    Is that silly 30-sec burn normal for all hybrids? I do not know. It certinaly is normal for the 2005 HH. This burn caused a lot of angst at least for many posters here. A few of the owners who post here even ordered engine block warmers from Canada for their U.S. HH. We never did hear back from them if that reduced the 30-sec burn period.

    Further back up this thread, there were many discussions of using Prius' P&G techniques and various ways of squeezing out that extra mile from the HH. These discussions span mid-2005 through mid-2006. At least for the few of us guinea-pigs :) who own the 2005 HH and early 2006 versions, we found that P&G and being real gentle with our HH did little to improve our MPG. We had to adapt such techniques to the HH's design which favors performance.

    We now average 26.5 in cold weather and 28 warm weather with speed-limit driving. If I really drive it carefully and slow down some, I can squeeze out 27/29 cold/Warm respectively. Cold is anything between 32 and 50 inclusive and warm is everything 51 and up. We are in northern CA so it rarely gets below 32.

    Looking forward to reading what you find out...
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "For the engine to start and run for 'thirty seconds' every time you start the vehicle 'cold'...

    IS NOT NORMAL FOR A HYBRID.

    This happens in summer and winter, hot and cold, regardless of how charged the battery may be. The aggressive running of the ICE system in the first 5-20 minutes of driving is also...

    NOT NORMAL FOR A HYBRID "

    For whatever reason, Toyota did not put the "thermos" system used in the Prius into the HH. This system keeps the coolant warm after the engine is turned off. The HH has to warm up the engine and catalytic converter, hence it has to run the ICE. I don't know why they designed the HH this way, but they must have had a reason.
  • tlcoxtlcox Member Posts: 1
    Does anyone kow if the "30-second burn" applies also to the 2007 HH?
    We don't own one yet, but are "in negotiations" with a dealer to buy one; probably within the next week, if we are lucky.
    I don't see any mention about mileage for the 07 model.
  • tswill2tswill2 Member Posts: 3
    My 07 usually does a short burn from a cold start even in our mild Florida weather. I haven't had it long enough to know what it will do in summer temps. I just start right out driving, figuring to put it to use. I'm getting around 30 for normal driving. As high as 40 for P&G. See my earlier post. Tom
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Hi, the 2007 model does the same as the 2006. It is not a big deal in normal usage. On our HH, the 30-sec burn will eat about 0.1-0.2 MPG according to the on-board computer report. We easily make that up in normal driving.
  • rhg1750103rhg1750103 Member Posts: 1
    Now that you purchased your HH during 2006, now is the time your expecting to utilize the $2,600 tax credit you were promised to help offset your cost. More than likely, you are in for a surprise!

    We purchased our HH in June 2006. After 7300 miles, we a averaging less than 23 MPG (mostly city driving), much lower than what we expected. To make matters worse, we did a preliminary estimate of our taxes to see how our credit would be accounted for. To our surprise, the IRS has recently disclosed in the last month that many HH purchasers will only see a fraction of their $2,600 credit (assuming you purchased before 10/1/06) due to the limitations imposed by the alternative minimum tax. In our case, a $2,600 credit is looking more like $600!

    Doing some further review, I suspect most HH owners may be in a similar tax position we are in. If that's the case, your HH just cost you $2,000 more than you expected. Add this cost to the lower MPG we were expecting, our HH purchase is not looking very attractive.

    Hope your situation is better! Good luck!
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    I suggest giving it a little time for the MPG to improve. It depends on terrain, how it is driven and the distance and temperature, tire pressure and other factors.

    Many owners have posted their tricks and experience in this forum and the postings date back to August 2005. They are worth reading if you have a couple of hours :).

    GOod luck with your MPG.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "To our surprise, the IRS has recently disclosed in the last month that many HH purchasers will only see a fraction of their $2,600 credit (assuming you purchased before 10/1/06) due to the limitations imposed by the alternative minimum tax."

    The IRS may be late in disclosing it, but it was always listed on this Forum: "Subject to AMT limitations" and "Check with your tax advisor".

    That whole AMT thing really needs to be fixed by congress, but unfortunately Congress never seems want to reduce it's income - and making the AMT fair would do just that.
  • skidneyskidney Member Posts: 2
    I'm on my first tank of gas and have thus far gotten only 20mpg average. I love this car, but does anyone know if this is a typical pattern for new Hybrid drivers, or is it because it's only 20 degrees here? I've only driven it in suburban locations so it's all low-speed driving, and I'm trying to be vigilant about slower acceleration and braking etc. I love this car but have a pit in my stomach that I'm not going to get nearly the mileage I'd hoped...
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    This sounds normal, exactly what we got for the first 2000+ miles. Then it got a tiny bit better to 22-23 until we hit the first oil-change at 5000 miles. It then shot up to 24-25 on occasion. We are 24K+ miles now and averaging about 25 mpg so far this winter. Last winter, we could do no better than about 22+ and it is colder this time. In the summer, we get close to 28. This is normal posted speed driving on our fairly flat terrain. We do have highway overpasses and driveway up to our place to climb but the downhill stretch even things out.

    I never believed in car "breaking in" past the first 1000 miles, now I am a grudging believer as this car seems to break in over many 1000's of miles.

    How much hot air you use when cold, the tire pressure, steepness of streets, duration of your trip and breaking-in process all play a role in determining your mpg.

    Also, babying the car by running on electric too often actually ends up running the ICE too often to charge the battery longer. There is a fine balance of how much ICE to use and how much electric to use. A general rule of thumb is to accelerate briskly (not flooring it) to desired speed and then maintain it by CRUISE. The car computer is generally good at figuring out what to do. At low speed city driving, when possible, keep the power meter needle close to the zebra zone after you reach desired street speed. That minimizes power use.

    Unlike Prius, this car is not designed only for fuel efficiency, it is for a blend of performance and fuel efficiency so we sort of have to learn how to find the sweet spots.

    Your concern was shared by many of us starting way back in August 2005. If you have a couple of hours to read previous posts, there are many tricks and good advice from many owners dating back to 2005. I have learned a ton from them. Enjoy the reading! :)

    ps. THose posts are on another board here in Edmund titled "Highlander Hybird Driving Tips and Tricks".
  • damoosedamoose Member Posts: 4
    Hmmm. The mechanics I talked to didn't mention the lack of a 'Thermos' system. If that's true, it could explain part of the problem, but not all of it. Not to mention, the Hybrids I test drove with the large digital dash display didn't have this problem. Was that my imagination?

    Here's my question for all the HH owners here online: Does your HH's engine ALWAYS start in the morning ~ ten seconds after turning the key? Do you have the small console display, or the large dash computer display? I wonder if there is a correlation. Please include what year.

    My experience with Toyota was dismall. They spent the majority of the time trying to convince me that there was nothing wrong, and that 22-23 mpg is actually pretty good on a SUV. @#$@ that!!!! I paid alot more for the Hybrid system because it is rated to get 29-31mpg! Not because the hybrid decal makes me feel better. Not because (as my dealer claimed) it's a 'high-performance' vehicle. If I wanted 'high performance' I'd have bought a sports car.

    Needless to say, I couldn't talk the dealership into doing any more than checking the computer and calling the Toyota tech support and reporting that nobody else has this problem and that there is nothing wrong. They wouldn't even test the battery. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. They even had the high class to write on my bill "Engine will run longer in cold weather condition. Operating as designed at this time"

    ...I've had the same complaint since EARLY LAST SUMMER when I bought my 06HH. It wasn't cold then! I had the same complaint from my very first test drive... at which time the dealer ASSURED me that the frequent engine starting and poor gas mileage was not normal- but would go away as I put on more mileage.

    18,000 miles later...

    A quick recap of my problems. My Highlander always starts the engine ~10 seconds after I turn the key... even if I don't touch the gas. (with everything OFF f.y.i. A/C, heat, 120v charger, lights) The engine revs and revs (for a helluv alot longer than 30 seconds) even if I'm going really slow, downhill, or NOWHERE AT ALL. Then for the next ~15-40 minutes of driving (depending on temperature) the engine turns on at every conceivable possibility, and only turns off after sitting at idle at traffic lights for 10-15 seconds. (If you have any experience with a functional hybrid- you'll know that sometime shortly after taking your foot off the gas for a long coast to a stop light the engine should have already shut off... hopefully most of the time)

    Some other drivers of 05 + 06 HHs have reported very similar experiences... while others seem to get appropriate mpg (near 30mpg) without even trying. Especially drivers of 07 HHs. And for those who missed my previous posts... I don't need advice on how to maximize gas mileage- I shared a Prius with my parents for many months. They get 44-51mpg. When I drive it, I get 52-59mpg. I know all the tricks. I know how to maximize the gas electric system.

    The problem manifests as an overactive ICE/engine system. No 'thermos' system might explain the wasteful cold-starting, but doesn't explain the myrid other problems that remain after 10-30 minutes of driving. For instance, the electric engine is being used less and less as the months go by. Is this simply due to cold weather? Sure, it could be, but the decline started before the weather changed. I'll have to see how it performs next summer. But come on, how long does it take an engine to warm up? The other day, after driving for ~30minutes on the highway, I was attemping to coast home in the neighborhood. The engine NEVER shut off, until I finally pulled to a stop in my driveway. Then, as I put the car in reverse to back into my final parking place, THE ENGINE JUMPED BACK ON, all of three seconds later... without me even touching the gas. Does the engine need to jump on because I shifted from drive to reverse while at a complete stop? I think not!

    Another thing about the 'cold-start'. If I start moving in the 10 second gap before the engine pops on, the electric system appears to have no problem moving the car at low-mod speeds without the engine on. Just like it's suppost to do. Then something buzzes, the engine pops on, and the hybrid system seems worthless from there.

    Ten seconds of fuel economy each day. Woo-woo! :(

    Why can't it stay off x amount of time longer until I'm done creeping out of my driveway. What would be the difference warming up the catalytic converter... it's not needed until the engine is running anyway! 'duh' My point is, I don't buy this 'thermos' system answer. (no offense stevedebi, I appreciate your input) but I think something is wrong with the computer system.

    So the electric engine works, the battery has juice, yet the engine turns on and stays on regardless of necessity... and I'm getting 23-24mpg. I could've gotten that gas mileage with a 4cyl Highlander and saved alot of money. And Toyota tells me nothing is wrong.

    Nothing wrong for them.
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    There is a technical service bulletin worth checking. When dealership stores cars on their lots, they may disconnect batteries to prevent parasitic drain. If you have not heard of the ISC Learning issue, it is worth looking into.

    We bought ours July '05. It is a 4WDi, Limited with the NAV screen in the middle. It shows all the energy flows. Everything you described matches our observations but our HH does not run the gas engine too often or for too long.

    TSB EG026-05 ISC LEARNING PROCEDURE
    This advises dealership to reset the Idle Speed Controller or else
    (1) the car's gas engine will run more often and longer,
    (2) the transmission gear clatter at idle is more pronounced and
    (3) gas mileage will suffer.

    This service, when requested by itself, is reported by another owner to cost $89. We have not had this done yet as our 12V has not been disconnected.

    The following comes straight from the TSB:

    TSB REVISION NOTICE:
    February 27, 2006: Step 3 of the ISC Learning Procedure and steps 3 and 7 of the
    ISC Initialization Procedure have been updated.
    Previous versions of this TSB should be discarded.

    Introduction
    When the 12–volt battery is disconnected or is depleted below 7 volts on 2006 model
    year Highlander HV vehicles, it is necessary to perform the ISC Learning procedure to
    re–initialize the idle speed control. The information in this TSB relates to this procedure.


    ISC Learning Procedure
    It is important to perform the ISC Learning procedure anytime the 12–volt battery is
    disconnected or the voltage falls below 7 volts. This procedure allows the I.C. (internal
    combustion) Engine to re–learn its optimal idle speed during the initial engine warm–up
    cycle or charging the HV battery. If this procedure is NOT performed, the following
    customer complaints may occur:
    Engine runs too long or more frequently than normal
    Reduced fuel economy
    Transmission gear “clatter” noise at idle is more pronounced
    In the Diagnostic Tester, the current state of ISC Learning status can only be accessed
    through the following path:
    DIAGNOSIS / ENHANCED OBD II / DATA LIST / USER DATA / ISC LEARNING


    ISC Learning value identifies the current status of ISC Learning and is expressed as
    either “COMPL” (complete) or “INCOMP” (incomplete).
    Each time the ignition is cycled to the “OFF” position, ISC Learning value will show
    “INCOMP” until the engine completes its initial startup/shutdown. The following procedure...


    Sorry folks, I just realize that there may be a copyright issue so I will only post what is common and public knowledge.
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Our HH was not doing too great in MPG at first. Then suddenly, after the first oil change at 5000 miles, I remember the mileage shot up. I posted a question here to ask if anyone had similar experience.

    I think it went from barely making 24 (NAV screen read-out) while driving to easily reaching 26 or 27 (NAV screen read-out). From then on, average per tank began to get better and better.

    It is possible that at the time, the dealership might have just done the ISC Learning bit on our HH during the oil change without telling us. This is the same mechanic who told me that he does it for "loyal customers" as a courtesy :).
  • skidneyskidney Member Posts: 2
    Thank you for advice! Will head over to tips and tricks and start reading. I also read your response about the ISC Learning Procedure. I think I'll make sure this is done to my 07 HiHybrid every time it's anywhere near the dealership.
  • 2hybrids2hybrids Member Posts: 6
    we got our HH in Dec... it had 17K on it at the time so it was broken in... had no problems getting close to 10L/100 (about 28mpg) for first few fill-ups... even 9.8 througout on... seemed to be using mostly electric on start-ups... then we put on o ur snows and its been tough seeing 12 anymore especially with out sub zero (C) weather over the past few weeks... startups are always gas, and we are now hovering around mid to high 13L/100M... more like 20 MPG... quite a difference!!!! is anyone else experiencing this much change with a change of tires... they are Blizzaks!
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "we got our HH in Dec... it had 17K on it at the time so it was broken in... had no problems getting close to 10L/100 (about 28mpg) for first few fill-ups... even 9.8 througout on... "

    Are you perhaps in Canada? That would be Imperial gallons, not US, correct?
  • ancientancient Member Posts: 1
    Been driving a 2006 HH for a year. "City" mpg stinks. Did not expect to get the advertised 31 mpg, but definitely expected to get better than 22 mpg. Dealer says vehicle is operating okay. Says I have to give the Hybrid time "to learn my driving habits". That's ridiculous - if it were true, I have a dumb vehicle because it hasn't learned a thing in 12 months.
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Have you had a chance to browse the other forum titled "Highlander Hybrid Driving Tips and Tricks" ? It has a ton of good info on what many owners have tried and done. We talked about mistakes we made too ;).

    Also, if you have not heard of the Idle Speed Controller Reset issue, please read back 4 or 5 posts, you will see a Technical Service Bulletin post about this. It may or may not be the problem you are experiencing but worth reading.

    I have had to drive San Francisco and the East Bay hills lately, about once a week for the foreseeable future :(. If you have been here and know the area, it is hilly and practically no flat land. It also has a ton of lights and a ton of cars. Even with a lot of coasting and careful braking and gentle starting from stop, I get no better than 24-MPG (for duration of trip) every time I drive through that area. But, to put it in perspective, when I did the same in our Toyota Sienna V6 in the past, the mileage was 18-MPG at best. If I take my Chevy V8 workhorse truck, I think it may get no better than 10-MPG.

    I always look forward to getting home ASAP where there is plenty of flat valley floor and open land to drive :).
  • 2hybrids2hybrids Member Posts: 6
    "we got our HH in Dec... it had 17K on it at the time so it was broken in... had no problems getting close to 10L/100 (about 28mpg) for first few fill-ups... even 9.8 througout on...
    Are you perhaps in Canada? That would be Imperial gallons, not US, correct?"

    yup... Canada... -17ºC this morning... and I do drive in a hilly area when I start up or return to work... only about 8 Kms total each way... much better mileage when I drive a distance... But i thought one of the ideas behind the hybrid was to improve city driving... not so, so far!
  • 2006rsx2006rsx Member Posts: 32
    Is this something a vehicle owner can do... or does it require special devices/tools that only a dealer will have? If possible, could you post the rest of that TSB here? Or could you e-mail it to me? Thanks!
  • rsh545rsh545 Member Posts: 4
    My HH is a great vehicle but has some major flaws. I currently have 11k miles I live in the chicago area and it has been very cold. As the temps dropped so did the gas mileage. I am very disappointed. I am now getting on the current tank getting 16.5 mpg. I am now driving with outside temps below zero, with the heat on the lowest setting to save fuel. I have called toyota twice on this issue have had the cart checked out at the dealer and have e gotten nothing but the age old line "we find nothing wrong with the operation of this vehicle. " I am at the point of exam examining resale value. I am not saving anything in fact this vehicle is costing me more than the one I traded in.
  • 2hybrids2hybrids Member Posts: 6
    Ok... so I just slogged through the very interesting thread on HH driving tips... but couldn't really pull out anything specifically related to my loss of mpg... all it really did was get me to asking more questions... mostly about my driving habits I guess... have also read the Pulse and Glide posts with curiousity...

    so...

    1) should I letting my HH warm up on the cold days (below 0ºC)... whenever I pull out of the driveway now the unit is letting me know I am using anywhere from 60 - 90 L/100K and after every few seconds or so it gradually makes its way down to the teens then if I take my foot off the pedal down to single digits... I don't remember this happening when we got it in Dec when the temps were over 10ºC and I still had the regular tires on... the engine says Ready and the dealer said that was then I was all set to go... but it always says ready... should I be waiting for some magical moment before heading out each time... and if so what is the signal... he also told me his wife made it to work one day using almost no gas... I find this hard to believe considering what i am getting right now!

    2) even when the car is warmed up (ie driving after a few minutes) when I start up from an stop at an intersection it still starts in the 40 - 60 L/100k range no matter how gentle I am on the pedal...

    3) overall I'm still getting only 13.6+ L/100k which I guess is only 20.x mpg... not what I expected from a Hybrid!?!...

    I don't think I could drive any more careful than I am right now... I gave my little MX3 to my son so my roaring around days are over, and for the most part I don't drive like I used to... but this is ridiculous... I've tried both Premium and Regular gas but don't know if there was much difference... hard to tell due to our fluctuating weather we've had!

    any help would be appreciated
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