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Comments
You're correct about the R&T comparison test. For some reason, R&T chose to include an '01 LS V6 manual in this test rather than the '02 model that had a horsepower & torque upgrade. I don't think the LS was given a fair shake in the article, but they didn't say it was a bad car, either.
You say that legroom is still painfully cramped, but you can't really know that for sure until you sit in an '03 LS, and they're not on sale yet. You're correct in saying that the manual transmission has been dropped from the LS for '03; the problem was that sales volume didn't justify keeping it in production. It's a shame; the reluctance of dealers to stock the manual LS probably hastened its demise.
Like cadillac1, I want the LS AND the CTS to succeed; it's high time that American manufacturers started getting the respect they deserve for building cars that are world-class competitive. I'm also anxious to see a comparison test that includes the '03 LS and the '03 CTS; it only seems fair that the same year model be used if a reasonable assessment is to be made.
This discussion should really be taking place in the comparison forum, but I wanted to set the record straight; the Detroit News article is accurate regarding sales figures.
And so they are, with 0% financing and God-knows what else. Lots of LS's are being sold. Even more may be when the '03 is released . . . or not.
I won't buy another until they re-introduce the manual. If they don't, I'll be taking a hard look at the Cadillac, along with the cars the LS & CTS were designed to compete with.
Last we heard in LS-land, Lincoln is only interested in competing with Cadillac -- they've given up completely competing with BMW, Infiniti & Lexus. You gotta love it when the initial vision of a new vehicle (sold in Europe, manual trans capable of running the autobahns all day at 120+ mph, with a diesel to follow) is completely derailed. I hope you folks don't have to endure this. If you stay focused (as the LS hasn't), you may carry the day.
-FAV002
I ran my first lap with traction control on and could feel the system restrain the car during excessive maneuvers. During the second and third laps, I had traction control off, but Stabilitrac on. Stabilitrac was barely noticeable, except under really hard cornering combined with overly abrupt braking when it felt like a big hand was coaxing the car in a different direction than my inputs directed it to go. Stabilitrac really saved my @$$ once when I went into the 90-degree sweeper way too hot after the high speed of the back straightaway! My last two laps with run with both systems off and I felt that I had to be much more mindful of my driving inputs since the electonric "hand of god" was no longer my co-pilot.
If you really want to improve your autocross times and handling of the car, get a second set of slightly wider 17" rims and bolt on a set of super-sticky 245-45 race tires like the Hoosier Autocrossers to use on the track only. They are DOT approved, but will wear out way too fast on the street. They stick like glue on the track and have the consistency of the bottom of a sneaker - you can actually dig your nails into them, they're that soft. I used to run BF Goodrich autocross tires on my Z28 and the difference in lateral grip and overall race handling was like night and day.
Racing the CTS is such an adrenaline rush isn't it?! When are you hitting the track again?
-FAV002
As for sales vs. production figures, the only one that counts is sales. Sales will ultimately dictate production volume. If you can't sell 'em you can't keep building 'em. Yes, there are great incentives on the 2002 LS right now, but if you look at the first 2 years of LS production it sold over 50K each year. 2002 was a bad year all around for Ford/Lincoln. The 2003 should get the sales back near that figure. Remember that, unlike the CTS, the LS also appeals to Town Car buyers who may want a smaller vehicle. I'm sure a few DeVille buyers may cross over to the CTS but I bet it's a lot less than the TC-LS conversion due to the styling differences.
It's time for that to stop, so I won't engage in any CTS, LS argument (OK, I will, with my Ford truck driving step-son). Both cars serve different markets. The CTS was designed more as a "sport sedan" than the LS. It's a shame, since the LS could be a great "sport sedan" with a little work from Ford. I believe that Ford originally intended the LS to be competition for the Seville. They turned out a car with beautiful lines that isn't sure whether it's a luxury sedan or sport sedan.
Akirby is right. Ford needs to reposition the LS, and Cadillac needs to come through with a CTS-V that meets and beats the competition. I'd be proud to have a CTS-V and a Lincoln LS-SVT side by side in my driveway some day. I guess that won't happen, so I'll have settle for a CTS-V and my old STS.
Necros and Fav002. Have fun! I remember racing corvettes on the dirt tracks down in Texas when I was in my 20's. The biggest mistake I made in buying my '98 Vette, was being afraid to drive it as it was designed to be driven, fast with gusto. The Vette sat in the garage if it was too hot or too cold; especially if I had to park where it could be stolen. My wife said,"drive it or get rid of it". I did and replaced it with the CTS which is now driven "fast with gusto".
Since my reaction time at 60 isn't as quick as it was at 25, I should say that I drive "fast with gusto and caution". Still, there's nothing as enjoyable as taking the CTS out on a winding country road and driving it as it was designed to be driven.
I look forward to seeing regular racing reports from you two (Fav002 and Nceros) and any others, as the CTS owners group grows.
Rich
As far as tires go, from what I can see SCCA regs for the stock class only allow OEM-size wheels and tires, so I don't think going wider in a wheel is an option for me. I would have loved to pick up some Kumho/Hoosier/Falken race tires, but they don't make them in stock size for the CTS. I picked up a set of these: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Yokohama&tireModel=AVS+ES100
But for this weekend, I'm still racing on the stock Goodyears. I have to put snow tires on, anyway, and next year the car will get summer tires for normal use, so the RS-As are really disposable tires for me.
Also, the Lincoln LS is a fine vehicle and yes, I haven't sat in an '03. But I haven't heard anything in the news about the '03 from a layout or chassis redesign that would say to me that the interior room layout is any different. This is a problem that all the cars based on this platform share (LS, S-Type, Thunderbird). You must remember that with a pants inseam of 40 inches, I'm on the outer fringe of buyers anyway. I got lucky with the CTS as far as legroom goes. But the LS in all previous forms was physically impossible for me to drive because of the interior layout.
However, keep in mind that the LS has more engine options over the CTS and that the LS is currently being offered with discounts and incentives for the reason it outsells the CTS. The CTS is being offered with discounts but not as enormous like the LS and most people are waiting for the revised model for later part of next year.
Personally, the LS is a fine car. However, I find its luxury offering more tempting than the CTS however, the CTS is a raw luxury sports sedan and the LS is a sports luxury car. I think the styling of the LS is plain Jane and dull while the CTS is exciting and gorgeous but both are excellent (more so the '03 LS, not prior models) cars catered to different mindsets.
J "CaddyLac"
The dealership where I saw the car has 3 used BMW's now. I'd never seen a Bimmer in their lot before, so I asked the sales guy about them and he said they were all CTS trades.
CTS moves off the lot quickly there. I go by there daily and none seem to stay there more than a week, maybe two at the most
I the CTS landed here at Saudi Arabia for the first time last week (2003 model). The main difference here is that a 2.6L 168hp version of the engine is availabe to bring the cost down to that similar to the US entery level cost of $29 grand, but it is all automatic transmission hete, you can not get a stick shift. The 3.2L engine is also available in all its glory. I am planning on getting a top of the line 3.2L fully loaded up to the sun roof CTS and sport luxry package with the 17 in wheels (the on star GPS navigation is not available here). This set up here costs $38,400, (consider that this cost also covers shipping and 5% customs. We do not pay sales tax here).
I could not go through all the above 1117 messages, so can someone highlight the main problems that are common to the CTS, any last minute warning. I really like the car and am going for a test drive tomorrow and if all went ok I may very well put the down payment. Any thing I should know (weak spots, pron to break trim areas, vragil items, etc.)
And one other question, since the only option available is the automatic, will the automatic CTS accelerate all the same at 6.9 sec. Did any one of you guys actually clocked teh acceleration of the CTS.
It is a very appealing engine to me, as it is high revving and smooth. I think it is as smooth as the BMW's 6s.
But one, the only one, disappointment I have with this engine is it doesn't have a timing chain; it uses a timing belt instead, which is not life-long durable.
Some people say this car looks ugly (or from certain angles).
I partially agree; but I think the car looks much better and appealing to me in dark colors. I love the way the car looks in black or dark blue.
I think this car really gives people many different feelings with different colors. I prefer black, and I think the car looks perfect in blac.
The pricing of the CTS with the 3.2L V6 sounds very similar to stateside. It sounds like a good deal.
I own a similar CTS to the one you are looking at (LuxSport, automatic, sunroof, black with dark pewter leather). I've only had the car for about 3 weeks but my wife and I had done a mix of driving plus one long trip. So far, we love this car. In fact, I just got finished doing a quick detailing of it.
Most of the early problems of this car that people have been reporting have long since been ironed out. These include:
1. A kinky fuel hose that limits your ability to quickly fuel up the car.
2. A puddle that accumulates under the drivers seat from one of the AC vents.
3. One owner had a bad piston that required the replacement of the entire engine. This is a rare problem for any car.
Other than that, I haven't heard of any other major or minor issues with this vehicle. Most people comment on how the car compares to the competition, or what about the car they'd change (lack of gauges, bigger glovebox, more power).
None of these issues stopped people on this board from buying the car. My car is tight as a tick and handles wonderfully. The only loose bit on my car is the Bose logo on the left hand tweeter.
It's too bad you can't get OnStar but I doubt that the OnStar operators know the way to Mecca ;-)
Bottom line: if the car appeals to you, buy it. You won't be sorry. Virtually all of us here are having a lot of fun with our cars.
It'll be a couple of years before I know what I'm going to have to give for one, but right now I'm thinking (hoping?) low $20's for a 2 year old (base car, not Lux/Sport).
BTW and FYI, "Bimmer" is in the spell check dictionary!!!
I don't know if I can qualify for the hill climb in the spring. It's the one that the original Fleetwood Cadillacs were tested on way, way back when.
I'll only hope that I can get one more chance this year to race this car.
I was at a Corvette restoration company on Saturday and a lot of people came over to check out the CTS. I said that it was a manual trans and most were so surprised that they wanted to see the 3 pedals. I really feel that Cadillac should do commercials or more advertising about this fact. The interest in the whole car seems to grow even more when this is pointed out. Even the business owner asked why Cadillac wasn't agressively advertising this to at least get people aware of the manual trans.
I know what happened to the LS and don't want this to happen to the CTS.
And I guess it's really wishfull thinking if the CD player understood MP3 CDs....
They now have 5 cars.
There is a sunburst orange car there that will be a hard sell.
Also a diamond white. pearlescent paints are incredibly hard to do properly. I have yet to see a CTS with it done right. Very mottled looking with the metallics clumped together.
If I paid $750 extra for diamond white i would expect a better job than that.
Cadillac did it right. They introduced the CTS and provided demo units equipped with manual and automatic transmissions. I was able to drive the Luxury and Luxury/Sport models with manual gear boxes. Cadillac wants me as a customer, Lincoln wants my Grandfather.
Good luck with lowering your E.T.
Red: You're assertive (or aggressive) and strong.
Silver: You ooze class. (So true; I have a Sterling CTS, of course.) Silver represents speed, power and success---which why it's the favorite color of baby boomers (ages 38 to 50)---passing white and becoming the No. 1 car color for the first time in 2001.
White: Longtime favorite and the color of rental cars. People under 65 drive white to blend in. For the elderly, white harks back to the elegance and wealth of the 1920s.
Yellow: It screams "Look at me!"--which is why you don't see it on family sedans. It's for sporty SUVs and expensive sports cars, in which it also says, "I'm so rich I don't care what you think" (example, a $50,370 Corvette sports coupe.)
Black: Power/aggression sums it up. The top choice for ages 24 to 37 and one of the top colors targeted by thieves (along with red).
Blue (medium or dark): You're conservative, middle of the road. Blue always seems to be No. 5 or 6 on list of the top 10 car colors.
Green (medium or dark): See blue, above, and add a touch of environmentalism.
AND LAST (and perhaps least):
Orange: You're on top of the trends. Orange (in many variations) is a key new color in 2003. GM has "sunset orange metallic" pickups (NOTE: no mention of the CTS); Mercedes-Benz offers a "paprika metallic" C-Class sports coupe.
So, waddaya think? Some sounds right to me, especially the part about silver drivers oozing class, but green for environmentalism seems to be a push.
And speaking of copper sunburst, my dealer said that its the hardest color to sell, but for the hyper-extroverts who buy it, it's the perfect color. Come to think of it, orange colored products generally don't sell well period. I remember a few years back when Apple was selling iMacs in five different colors. The orange iMac was always the slowest selling. I think the most sales of the orange iMac was in Colorado (Go Broncos) and east Tennessee (Go Vols).
I've had good luck using the "SmartBuy" brand of CD-RW's. They come in a 5 pack w/ the thin jewel cases in a pink/red colored packaging. I think I bought them at CompUSA. They were dirt cheap $$.
I'm sure you probably know this already...but you have to burn the discs as an "audio disc" and close the session in order for the CTS's stereo to read them.
-hope that helps
As for color, I originally wanted the copper sunburst but ended up with black (couldn't find copper on a dealer's lot w/ the auto tranny). I'm glad I got the black because IMO it's the best looking color for the CTS...as you said though, it's also the hardest to care for. I'm getting used to it though since this is the 3rd black car in a row that I've owned...
On an added note, when I visited the dealer to get my license plates the salesperson told me that copper sunburst had been discontinued. I don't know if it's true or not, but that's the rumour as I heard it.
Curiously, the DVD navigation system or the new Bose 6-CD in-dash changer with Bose noise-cancelling technology aren't being offered yet, despite the fact that both have been listed in the product slicks and the web site for over a month.
As of this date, color options haven't changed either (no ebony leather replacing dark pewter, no Platinum paint replacing Sterling, etc).
I'll post more later, but for the first time, I wasn't last. Check out "O" class.
I was asked yesterday why Cadillac would do such a thing as putting a manual trans in this car. They thought that it would hurt the reputation of the whole line. These people were both retired and about 70+. The man said that Lincoln got the word early and dropped the manual for 2003.
WRX wasn't that much faster.
I did tech for Dave's run group, and it's interesting to see how much room there is in front of the CTS's engine. I'm curious as to what dropping in a V8 will do for weight distribution. Not so much because of the weight difference, but because of how much farther forward the engine will be. As it is, the front of the V6's block is just about at the front wheel centerline - very nice.
The European makers had plenty of choices, the Japanese offered some, but US car makers had nothing until the CTS arrived. (We won't even mention the mythical Lincoln LS w/manual transmission). I drove everything out there (under $40K) and the CTS won!
I may be in the minority, but a true sporting sedan needs to have a manual transmission to make me smile.
If the CTS manual sales drop below 5% you may see Caddy do the same. It's hard to justify the expense of a separate powertrain for such low sales. BMW's whole reputation is built around performance so they have to offer them. For Caddy and Lincoln it's a different story. It's also questionable how viable regular manuals will be long term with SMGs and CVTs on the way that can offer the best of both worlds (crisp, manual shifting with minimal power loss PLUS an automatic mode for rush hour driving).
Unfortunately I would personally have to go with an auto as traffic congestion around Toronto with a manual would kill me.
I'm very suspicious.
My last discussion with an LS owner went something like this: I saw him pull into the restaurant parking lot as I was walking out. We passed each other in front of his shiny green 2001 LS. I asked how he liked the car, he loved it. Then, I said "Is it a manual or automatic transmission?" His reply, "Both."
I thanked him and slowly backed away...