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Comments
A narrow (but very vocal, and very devoted) segment of buyers buys manual transmissions on the biggest engines for fun. Until GM learns this one, they will not be competitive at the high-roller table.
The 3.6L engine is going to be used in a wide range of vehicles - aside from where else it might end up in GM's US line, it's replacing the 3.8 Buick rockerbox in the Australian Holdens.
But that doesn't mean the new engine will be available then. It could be Sept or October or even later.
Sometimes they will end production earlier and start the next year's production earlier too.
Kind of like what they did with the 2002 Camaro.
It was availble in June '01
A man enters a subway car and sits down, he then notices a vintage Cadillac on a poster on the wall.....then the trains moves......he sees that car in motion and then he sees the CTS, Escalade and finally the XLR. When the train stops the picture on the wall is of the XLR.
Then the announcers says "Who would have seen it coming". Finally a good ad from Caddy.
M
M
The colors Sterling, Garnet Red and Copper Sunburst are all history. My dealership said that the dealers never really liked Sterling; they wanted a better silver tone. Copper Sunburst was just a hard color to sell, although the occasional extroverted buyer sometimes came in and had to have it. And I agree that the CTS needed a better red.
The seats get lumbar adjustment...hooray!
The dashboard clock gets replaced by a water temp gauge. Finally! Now where's the oil temp and engine temp gauges while we're at it?
The 3.6L V6 joins the 3.2L V6 in the lineup. Yup, this is classic German marketing, and the correct move. People who want a CTS for under $33K can still get one, while buyers who want the better engine will pay for it. Those of us who have 2003 CTS's won't suffer severe depreciation over a 1 year engine, and GM will still get some return on some of its engineering costs when the 3.2L V6 was modified for the CTS from its original design.
New wheels, but no 18" option...well, at least not until the CTSv shows up. No more exposed polished lug nuts in the new designs.
The LuxSport gets the polished wheels back as standard. I never understood why this was taken away in the first place.
A biggie...no manual transmission for the 3.6 V6. I'm going to assume right now that this is another example of a option that isn't ready for primetime and will be late. Considering that the 3.2L V6 has one, and the CTSv will certainly have one, the 3.6L's absence of a manual is too much to overlook. Hopefully this will get rectified soon.
Split folding rear seat is now standard on the Lux Sport...should be standard across the board.
Lux Sport gets the Xenon headlamps standard...good.
Unlike the SRX, no manumatic available in the CTS...weird.
It looks like the "sport" mods have been decoupled from the LuxSport model, so you can order Stabilitrak for a base 2004 CTS...but you have to take the 17" wheels, firmer ride, load leveling suspension, new wheels, etc. That will only drive the price up.
And lastly, the exhaust tip is stainless steel.
There was a load leveling suspension, including an air compressor and air shocks in the rear on the Catera, but I can find nothing in the service manuals referring to such a suspension on the CTS. The headlamp leveling system is described in the manuals.
What is Cadillac thinking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
After all of the hype about competion and attracting new buyers ( and I think I'm doing my part to help ) this has got to be a mistake. I just don't see a CTS with an auto shift going to the drag races. What kind of fun what that be! When I went last season,young people noticed the CTS , it's performance and it did get attention! I'm probably the only one that went and ran a CTS for time runs but it was great exhileration and just plain fun to drive it and get to see how it can perform and how I performed with it. To almost become one with the car is a great feeling. Imagine a CTS going down a dragstrip. Not something even I would have imagined years ago let alone being the driver.
I don't race every week but time trials are fun events. They are held about 6 times a season. I am simply performance oriented and like to test it out from time to time.
Sorry Cadillac! Performance image is futile without a manual transmission!
BMW has a dedicated customer base of manual drivers that they have built up over the years, but I imagine that they still sell more automatics in this country than manuals. Mercedes-Benz doesn't even offer manuals on most of their models and hasn't seen their sales or prestige suffer.
It's also possible that the current manual doesn't have the ability to handle the increased torque from the engine, or there could be other technical issues. The 6 speed manual for the CTSv will certainly be able to handle the torque, but whether you can mate a transmission donated from the Corvette (I assume) to a 3.6L V6 remains to be seen.
Still, I think Cadillac needs to make a the manual available with the "middle" engine to give buyers and choice, and to continue to press the point with journalists that they are serious about the sporting aspects of this and other products. The last time I remember that Caddy offered a manual on the base engine but only an automatic on the upscale engine was the <gasp> Cimmaron.
Although I've never owned a manny tranny, I learned to drive on a '56 Ford Crown Victoria with a V8 and a stick on the column. Later on (1966-67), I raced "4-speed" Corvette's on dirt tracks in Texas. I agree with all of you that a stick should be offered with both engines and the "sport lux". Cadillac should match and beat the competition.
The build date for the '04 CTS is June 9th. Availability will probably be some time in September.
This thread keeps on getting better. With the exception of some anti-GM or anti-CTS people that pop in once in a while, it's become a great source of information and experience sharing. I just hope that someone from Cadillac (not just pmdriver) looks at this page and listens to our compliments and our criticisms. CTS owners are their best salesmen and women.
Rich
2 reasons why a car would take such a dump in value so quickly... either it has issues, or no one wants it. Reports of widespread issues on the CTS are non-existant, so the latter is likely the case and seems to be corraborated by dealers. This isn't the first dealer I've heard of saying manuals aren't selling.
It's a catch-22.... if no one buys them, they're going to get dropped regardless of any enthusiast's protests (they couldn't save the Camaro), but this instant, heavy depreciation is certainly a sure way to scare off the few who might be interested.
Too bad my wife doesn't want to shift. This could be one of the greatest used car bargains ever.
As far as the manumatic on the CTS, it would seem that it would have on since the SRX will. From that site it is not clear if both the SRX and CTS use the exact transmission.
In my opinion people that buy cars in this class with manuals want it for the added performance. The problem is that the 3.6 with auto will most likely out perform the 3.2 with manual - making it hard to sell the 3.2. Please Cadillac wake up and get it right! Here is my suggestion - drop the 3.2 at the end of the 03 model year (build extra manuals with the 3.2 at the end of the model run). Start 04 production with autos only and work like heck to get the manual for the 3.6 ready ASAP - no later than six months after launch. Infiniti launched the G35 with auto only and made the manual available under a year later. Cadillac needs to do it a little faster though.
Also, maybe Cadillac should consider pricing the manual and auto models the same. Nissan does this with the Maxima and Infiniti charges more for a manual G35 than a auto G35 ( there may be some added equipment). This would help GM get back some of the cost of developing the manual. Just some ideas.
Lincoln tried but gave up. Cadillac will probably do the same. The other brands can subsidize the cost by selling the manual overseas even if the US sales aren't that strong.
At least they're planning on putting a manual in the CTS-V. If Lincoln ever comes out with a Hi-Po LS it will probably get the ZF 6-speed automatic from the S-type and not a manual.
Regarding the STS, if you click the "New for 2004" icon, in the next screen it describes "Deletions". In that section, it lists "STS model", as well as three paint colors, and the old sound system.
And they almost have me. Currently I drive a 1999 Contour SVT. With 200hp and a tight 5 speed the car does 0-60 in 6.9 and pulls 0.86g on a skidpad.
Funny that those numbers line up almost perfectly with a 3.2 CTS with manual.
So why would I want to go from a $23xxx to something in the high $30s unless along with the huge improvement in luxury, fit, and finish, it at least SLIGHTLY outperformed my current sport sedan. Please Cadillac, give me more reasons under the hood.
A 0-60 of 6.9 wasn't bad a couple years ago, today it doesn't really stack up to the middle tier BMW's and Infinity's.
And unless the CTSv comes in much lower than expected, it's out of range for myself.
brian dors
Are you seeing an actual maintainence or recover of rear bumper height when you load the vehicle, or are you judging from the fact that the headlight aim is maintained? I will have to check further.
What I think....
Manual and auto 3.2. Base and sport versions only, no lux - I'd even like to see them decontent it a little, maybe delete some gizmos and make leather optional.
With lack of manual demand, I expect to see only manumatic 3.6 with lux and sport versions, new console, etc. How about some more wheel choices, esp. in 18" and 19"?
Manual and auto 5.7 CTSv. 400 hp, not 350.
I noticed the full load definitely caused the car to squat. I got out a ruler and measured the distance between the rear wheel well from the top of the rear tire. Then I started the car and measured again. The CTS slowly recovered to proper height...it was pretty obvious, even without the measuring stick.
I'm not sure why you can't find it in the manuals. That is strange.
The problem Cadillac and Lincoln face is getting the would-be BMW driver into the showroom in the first place.
And, as for the CTSv's manual transmission, the parts will probably be more or less straight out of the Camarobird parts bin - while the Corvette uses a T56-based transmission, it's packaged up in a rear-mounted transaxle configuration, which you won't see in the CTSv.
Also I asked at the dealership about the specs on the 2004. Apparently they haven't been informed yet as to the new engine only being available with the auto trans.The salesman said that they haven't received the data yet on 2004s
Although my '99 STS doesn't handle as good as the CTS, it's a great road car and almost as much fun to drive.
mannytranny - We received the CTS recall letter today too. I'll call tomorrow for an appointment.
Rich
Camaro, Firebird, and Corvette all use the Borg Warner designed and now Tremec built T56.
Corvette's is rear mounted like the poster said.
This is a heavy transmission and weighs 75lbs more than the old T5.
It weighs as much as an automatic.
A heavy duty piece that is rated for 450 ft. lbs of torque.
That is a mistake.
But I hate to admit it, but she's probably right. According to GM's own website, the average age of the CTS buyer is 55...a decade younger than the typical Cadillac customer, but still a decade older than where they'd probably like to be in this car. And I imagine it would be the younger buyers who would demand a stickshift.
Well, at least the CTSv will still get one.
The Aston and the '05 Cobra get hardware added to the T56 to make it a toggle-shifted sequential-pseudoautomatic e.g BMW's SMG and Ferrari's F1 setup. I'm sure it'll get into other T56 applications at some point.
I'm honestly very surprised at that number, because it indicates that Cadillac may have sold quite a few CTSes, but they haven't gotten to the market they need to get to.
Looked at Mercedes, and BMW but decided on CTS because I liked it better overall. I thought Cadillac had it together.
I was waiting for the 3.6 as a trade but now with the facts in hand I guess that I'll be looking at BMW again. The Corvette is also a possibility, but presently family is restoring our 63 so I didn't want another Vette or maybe just wait it out for a V.
I suspect that Cadillac will follow LS even when the CTSv arrives. Even on this thread most of the CTSs are auto.
I'm 27, screaming for a true domestic sports sedan. This is an insult, I won't drive something rated 6.9 that costs almost $40k loaded and have 330's, G35's, Passat W8's, Maxima's, Altima 3.5's, Buick Regal GS, Pontiac Grand Prix (i'll stop the list here).... all packing more punch.
Brian
I also sent her a email today in regards to the manumatic. I will let everyone know what I find out.
Someone please forward this to Cadillac: Not offering a manual with the new engine is a BIG mistake. What could me more fun than a well balanced RWD sedan with a 260 hp engine and manual transmission? THIS IS WHAT CADILLAC NEEDS TO ATTRACT NEW CUSTOMERS FROM BMW, AUDI, AND MB. Sure the manual may not sell in big numbers, but don't ruin the fun for those of us who enjoy driving. Several months ago I had read that the 04 CTS would have the new more powerful V6 engine and a 6 speed manual. When I read that, I was fully prepared to wait another year before I get a new car. Now that Cadillac is not going to offer a manual with the larger engine and looks to be offering the larger V6 on higher priced models, I may just go ahead and look seriously at a Saab 9-3 Arc(which BTW has a 6 speed manual). Don't get me wrong, I love Cadillacs and I love the CTS as it is now, but if Infiniti can build a similar sized car with a powerful V6 and offer a manual(which will probably sell in small numbers) at a low 30s price point, then I know Cadillac can. Sure I'd love a CTS-V when it comes out, but it will probably be out of my price range. While I could probably be happy with a CTS(3.6) with the automatic, I'd love to be able to row my own gears. Cadillac, I'm 27 and in my life have the potential to buy alot of cars and I'm sure there are others here(young and old) with similar sentiments. This may sound cliche, but if you build it(CTS with the 3.6 and manual) and keep the price at a competitive point, the customers will come. My guess is the number of manual customers would be small, but trust me they will be very loyal. And as word gets around and more people drive the car(as well as continual improvement) sales will increase. Remember, the BMW 3 series used to sell in the 40K annally range, now it is one of the best selling "near luxury" cars. Cadillac has serious potnential with an already great car here, I'd like to see them take full advantage of it.
Also, the same issue (different article) had the "first drive" new Accord V6 with 0 to 60 and 1/4 mile times better than the cars you list as having "more punch". Yes, the BMW 330, the W8, and the G35. For some reason, many of these cars performed nowhere near their earlier "first drive" tests. Hmmm.
Anyway, not to make a federal case, but I would not put a whole lot on the magazine acceleration numbers. There is a lot of questionable stuff going on there.
Sevenfeet0 - Thank goodness your wife is o.k. Our team appreciates the kind words and I'm personally happy that the attention to detail in the handling is recognized. Hopefully it won't be in such dramatic circumstances next time! (By the way my wife is 5 months along with our first!)
Bigdaddycoats - Sorry if I haven't replied to your specific questions before. Perhaps it is because you're knowledgeable enough to ask questions that I'm not allowed to answer! I'd love to "spill my guts" but I can't. By the way, I don't think the manny future is as dire as it may seem to you right now
The FE3 package does have load leveling in the form of Nivomat self-leveling shocks from Sachs. The vehicle will correct its trim height within 1 km of driving (shocks level with pumping of driving). By the way the Nivomats increase spring rate to level the load, and also increase the amount of damping so the vehicle remains well damped when loaded.
I look forward to when I can share some tidbits about the CTS-V!
He said that Manual tranny CTS sales are 2% of total CTS sales.
Has 2 in stock.
Has sold only 3 or so.
Doesn't know when the High Feature V-6 will come out with the manual.
Is the Manual doomed as it was with the Lincoln LS?
Is the G35 and IS300 MTXes going to have the same fate as well?
In a later issue (Jan.?) - in letters to the editor - C/D acknowledged the performance numbers discrepancy. They attributed it to likely be the result bad gas.
Cheers,
- Ray
Always desiring the best performance . . .
If the gas was bad, you'd think these paid auto professionals would have noticed something with the car's performance. The times should have at least tipped them off. They could have run it again after correcting the situation. Yeah, they "figure out" it was "bad gas" after people write and point that something was wrong. Did they test the gas somehow afterward to confirm it's deficiency or problem?
Also, it's funny that the "bad gas" seemed to affect some of the cars more than others. If I remember, that G35 really must have got some bad stuff while other cars performed closer to other tests.
Additionally, they do this stuff all the time. You'd think they've secured a reliable source of fuel for their tests.
That excuse is so easy to shoot full of holes it's sad. The reality MAY be that some of the "first drive" cars are "tuned" a bit differently then what you buy. They are blueprinted perhaps. Ringers. Whatever. It's a nice relationship between the auto manufacturers and the magazines. They can send whatever they want to the magazine and it's gets reported (advertised) with that performance. Also, the excitement sells magazines.
Notice, I said MAY. But it is my strong suspicion. When you look at all the huge money to be had at the first impressions and the often quoted magazine performance numbers in TV and magazine advertisements, it's easy to see a motivation.
I also remember the 350Z being tested in some magazine and they actually dyno'd it (actually, all the "first drivers" should be chassis dyno'd in a controlled environment to test output to keep everybody honest - but I don't think we will see that anytime soon). Anyway, the 350Z was putting about 85% power to the wheels. I'm no expert on that, but 85% seems awfully good. Maybe it was pumping out a little more at the crank to start with.
I still say - don't pay too close attention to the magazines.
This was with the 275hp LT1 motor and a 6 speed tranny.
Fast forward to 2002 when the LS1 powered SS packing 335 hp couldn't meet the 5.0 second 0-60 time of the '93 car.
And it has been proven that the LS1 was underrated. They will usually do 285-300 hp at the wheels.
I guess it would be fair to say that the '93 car was a ringer.
Same thing with the '94 Impala SS. 0-60 time of 6.5 seconds according to Car and Driver. I can guarantee you that no stock Impala SS ever did 0-60 in 6.5 secs.
thebug...