Cadillac CTS/CTS-V

akirby · March 2003

If Caddy was making the CTS as a hobby car it would be hard to understand. But last time I checked they're in business for one reason and that's to make money. It costs a lot of money to produce a manual drivetrain and 2% of sales isn't going to recover that cost.

Don't forget that most - if not all - of those "other" brands that have manuals sell them overseas in Europe and Japan and over there they are the predominant tranny choice. They don't have to sell a lot here to justify the added cost.

mcgreenx · March 2003

My LuxSport was delivered in mid-September, but I don't know when it was built. The radio switch was made by that time because others here, whose cars were delivered around the same time, had the new radio, so mine must have been on the lot for a while. On my original setup, the steering wheel button activated the built-in cell phone. It was a total waste, as far as I was concerned, as is the cell phone to begin with, but I guess that OnStar equipment already contains all that is necessary for the phone, so the incremental cost is probably very low. Now, as I said, the button activates the audio mute, which I much prefer. BTW, I'm assuming the newer cars have the handsfree built-in cell phone, right?

Also BTW, I thought I read here that the '04 is doing away with the round steering wheel radio volume control. IMO that's one of the handiest steering wheel controls I've used. The four programmable buttons on the left are nice, but once programmed to my liking, I never change them.

sevenfeet0 · March 2003

If 98% of the CTS's out there are manuals, then that means there probably aren't going to be a lot of used ones out there.

sevenfeet0 · March 2003

My car was delivered on Oct 1 and it had the new radio too. Truthfully, I didn't even know about the switch...I thought all CTS radios had the digital clock...which made me wonder why they bothered with the analog one. I guess the analog clock came first.

wwhite2 · March 2003

Cars like the Corvette and Eldorado did/do have hobby like production numbers at various times . It took many many years to drop the Eldo and they will probably never drop the vette

eaton53 · March 2003

There was another manual on Autotrader a couple of weeks ago for $19995, less than 10K miles... so the one on there now wasn't the only one.

bxd20 · March 2003

Is www.clubcts.com gone forever? Is there another place on the web for discussing the CTS? I like Edmunds but it doesn't fill the whole need (forums, part sources, gallerys, tuning advice).

wwhite2 · March 2003

So we have learned that Americans prefer Automatic transmissions . Ground breaking

wwhite2 · March 2003

Thanks for the info on those websites I will check them out and see if they are more useful than learning that Ameriacns prefer the automatic

dindak · March 2003

Here is something you likely didn't know though.. Canadians also prefer automatics by a landslide. See, it's time well spent here.

;-)

sonjaab · March 2003

Sure those 20k stick CTS aren't wreck rebuilds or
lemon buy backs ? There is a CTS stick with all the goodies in todays Syracuse NY paper at a Caddy dealer for $29,990..........
They have a new base stick in stock for 31k. Plus 2 automatics.....

wwhite2 · March 2003

That probably guaranteed . All of the other 5 spds listed even the copper sunburst ones were 30-33K

richerry · March 2003

Have been waiting for the 2004, but it seems to show that is still will not have a replacable air filtration system.It does not show on the printbook. Most other GM cars have one. I have an alergy so will buy a car that really removes pollen so that gets me out of buying the CTS.

Also the winshield wipers are not automatic like offered on the old Olds products.

What other things are missing?

fjk57702 · March 2003

I'm not sure, but does the outside drivers side mirror dim automatically at night?

wwhite2 · March 2003

I thought I read in the owners manual that I do have a replaceable filter

jemiller · March 2003

The issue isn't whether the current body of CTS buyers prefer automatics.

The issue is whether offering a manual transmission ON THE MOST POWERFUL MODEL gets the car into a buyer base to which it would not otherwise appeal.

Re BMW 540i/6s - yes, some end up back on the used market fairly quickly, when the buyers tire of commuting in them (notably those who don't learn about drilling out or removing the clutch delay valve.) But in general people who buy 6-speed 540is are THE most loyal of owners.

Somewhere down the road, it'll be something of a non-issue - "sequential" controls are turning manual transmissions into automatics without torque converter losses.

That's fine with me - as much as I hate so many late-model automatics with their "I don't care what you do with that lever, I know better than you do when you should shift" control strategies, I have no love for clutch pedals. If I can have something that shifts when I want it to - not two seconds later, not half a second later, but NOW - I don't care whether it's helical spur gears, planetary gears, or three toothpicks and a rubber band down there.

mannytranny · March 2003

I emailed Cadillac and got a response concerning the manual transmission availability on the 3.6 engine in the 2004 CTS. The customer service person agreed that it would not be on the 3.6. Nothing about late year availability.
     In response to my question ".... enhancements will include substantially increased horsepower; manual or "automatic-manual" transmission; performance-tuned suspension with StabiliTrak; larger wheels, tires and brakes; additional instrumentation; unique front grille; dual exhaust with visible tips; unique seating surfaces; and V-Series badging, both exterior and interior. We do not know what type of engine, but it will be powerful than the 3.2 V6, currently in the CTS".... from Cadillac.
      The suggestion was made to look at a CTS V for 2004. It will have a 6 speed manual trans or a manual- auto trans. No mention of price though! I'm sure that it will cost a lot more with a lot of included features that were named.
     All I wanted was a manual 3.6 engine....oh, well.

sevenfeet0 · March 2003

All of those things for the CTSv have been previously reported, so it's no big secret. The only (somewhat poorly kept) secret is the final engine configuration. I still think we won't find out until the SRX and XLR have been formally rolled out to the media. No sense in stepping on those two important product introductions.

cdnpinhead · March 2003

in a recent conversation was the notion that the people who end up with CTS's are probably all hard-core GM people to begin with.

I'm not so sure, so thought I'd ask. How many of you are first-time GM people? How many are first-time American car people?

Why this is interesting is that I have a Lincoln LS, and it turns out that many of the enthusiasts who have LS's are first-time Lincoln people, so the same may or may not be true of your car. If the goal of Cadillac (& Lincoln) is to bring in a different (younger) demographic, part of the question is whether they're just canabalizing their other lines, or whether they're bringing in people who wouldn't have otherwise bought from that particular branch of the Big Three.

jemiller · March 2003

The CTSv rumor mill said 350HP, then it said 400HP LS6, then there was some mention of a 5.3-liter next-gen pushrod V8, but that engine's not due to show up until the next Corvette shows up in '06. Interesting to note, of course, that the "1000HP" showcar V16 is a pushrod engine.

I'm betting on an LS6, perhaps with a few 'marketing HP' shaved off the Corvette numbers. Since the LS6 costs basically the same as the LS1 to make, it's entirely a question of whether GM has the nerve to do it. (Side note: bone-stock 500HP '03 Benz S600 bankerwagen, show up at dragstrip, line up at the tree, put your foot down, 12.45 @ 114mph.)

I'm also betting the first year's production, at least, gets a full-manual T56 - I'd like to think GM might have a sequential-shift test mule running around, but (a) how fast can the software integration be done and (b) did Tremec give Ford an exclusive on the sequential-shift T56 for some period?

eaton53 · March 2003

Has had several GM vehicles, but I've never owned a GM car for a daily driver.

Sonjaab.... there's no way to tell what the deal is with manual CTS in Autotrader... all I know is they were used w/about 10K on the clock.

I've only seen those 2 manuals so far, at $20K and $21K they are by far the cheapest used CTS I've come across. We'll see if this continues as more come up for sale.

bigdaddycoats · March 2003

http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=4928

babylou · March 2003

I agree that a manual tranny should be offered for enthusiasts and enthusiasts always want the most powerful engine. We all agree that Caddy should not follow the Lincoln LS path. Guess what? Caddy is not following the Lincoln LS path. Caddy will offer a manual tranny with the V8 CTSv. Isn't that what the enthusiast will want anyways? I know that is what I want.

Regarding price; The CTSv does not neccessarily need to creep up in pirce more than a few grand. The LS1/6 engine is not neccessarily more expensive to manufacture than the ne 3.6L V6. How much more can larger wheels and brake rotors cost?

b4z · March 2003

Mercedes offers a 4.3L V8 and 5.0L V8. I think the 5.0L costs about $8000 more.
The only difference is the size of the bore and the size of the pistons.
Buyers are willing to pay it, so DC charges it.

I would guess that the CTS V will be a good 4K+ more than the regular version.

As far as extra costs go it is incredibly expensive to retool parts.

I am sure you are all familiar with the Camaro SS. When it first came out it had the 5 spoke Corvette ZR1 wheel. A few years ago they came out with the 10 spoke design. Cost of the new wheel design was $1.4 million!! Gotta sell a lot of cars to make that up.

dindak · March 2003

Is the 3.6 L in the CTS the same engine that will be optional on the Buick Rendezvous Ultra in 04? I guess the 3.6 is not exclusive to Cadillac.

sevenfeet0 · March 2003

No, the 3.6L V6 is a "corporate" engine and not exclusive to Cadillac. Then again, the current engine in the CTS isn't exclusive either, having applications from Saab to Saturn. I think that the Cadillac application of the 3.6L will have the most horsepower of any of the divisions, much like the case with the 6.0L Vortec found in the Escalade/Yukon/Tahoe.

fjk57702 · March 2003

If they were able to sell them on 100,000 or so cars that is nearly 500,000 wheels which is a few dollars per wheel. I would think that 1.4 million would buy more than 1 wheel design.

1997montez34 · March 2003

This is exactly the kind of half-way engineering that peeves people and turns them off to GM! It's pretty simple....put a 6-speed stick on the 3.6 and watch your popularity skyrocket. They need this car if only for image. I can't imagine that they are going to undo all the progress they've made, but they just might.

jemiller · March 2003

I'd bet the LS6 engine is actually no more expensive to make than the V6s. But, that's only the start of the list.

You need a different cooling system, different cooling/fuel/vapor/power steering/heater/etc. plumbing, the exhaust system will be completely different as will much of the engine-compartment wiring. On a single-unit basis the cooling and exhaust pieces would probably be 40% more expensive than the V6 parts, but you have to factor in lower quantities.

Presumably Tremec has cooked up a T56 that puts the shifter through the same hole as the current Getrag box (the one they aren't selling many of), that it all fits under the stock floorpan (the T56 is a pretty big piece of hardware) and a lot of the current manual-transmission bits will be used. As an aftermarket piece the T56 is expensive, at the OEM level it was cheap enough for GM to use it in the cheap Camarobird, it may be cheaper than the Getrag box in the manual V6 cars.

You need a shorter, stronger driveshaft and (probably) stronger axle shafts and CV joints.

One hopes the CTSv gets a decent limited-slip - Torsen, Hydratrak, etc. This is a fairly pricey item, but there's no good way to do without it and, once again, GM got the Torsens cheap enough to use in the high-end Camarobirds.

We'll see how far they go on brakes, most of the obvious competition wear four-piston fixed-mount calipers at least in front though the C5-style two-piston PBRs would probably be adequate and not too expensive. The M5 uses a floating iron single-piston front caliper, though its brakes are one of the weaker aspects of the car (numbers are fine, feel isn't.)

Presumably it gets big wheels and tires (hopefully not chromed 20" bling-bling crap), different seats, probably a different steering wheel, various trim changes.

And you have to pay off the engineering and development costs (the time spent fixing the differential-carrier bushings that twist too far under the V8's torque, figuring out the right alignment settings, working with the tire guys to get rid of that road-rumble that buzzes the keys in the ignition, etc.)

When you add it all up, and figure in that pricing on a car like this is based not necessarily on what it costs to build but on its perceived position in the marketplace, I still say $50-54K. That's in M3 country (a smaller car that sells to what I'd say is a different market), about where used E39 M5s are getting to now, the cheapest new competition is around $60K right now (Jag S-type R.)

dindak · March 2003

Like to see that 3.6L go into the new Grand Prix but I guess that won't happen. I wonder what kind of premium they will charge on the Rendezvous to get the motor.

regfootball · March 2003

so funny, no stick for the nice new motor.

way to go general.........

same old.

dindak · March 2003

Ya, like you drive a stick.

fjk57702 · March 2003

I think only 2% of CTS buyers wanted the manual. Lincoln has (I think) completely dropped the manual. The 3.6 is a completely new engine, so I am not surprised that: 1) it is optional (with the 3.2 standard), 2) is only available as one powertrain to start. At this point I am not sure what Cadillac plans for other transmissions on the CTS. The CTSv will offer a manual, so if most of the 2% go with the CTSv, then offering the manual on the rest of the line is probably not worthwhile. On the otherhand, perhaps they want to offer a 6 speed with the new engine but will need time to develop that option.

mannytranny · March 2003

Went in for recall work yesterday as scheduled and it took about 15 minutes maybe less. Most of the time was driving the car inside and then driving it back outside. The steering shaft bolt was torqued to 22 lbs ft. Mine was only slightly loose but I watched as the work was done. Very easy to get to from above and the tech needed just a longer extension to get to the bolt. I was the first in my area to have the work completed.

oldsman01 · March 2003

Despite the disappointment of Cadillac not offering a stick with the new V6, I still want a CTS!! I saw a blue one earlier today with drive-out tags on it, looked like it had the sport package wheels. All I can say is SHARP!! While I would like to row my own gears, the CTS does have a very nice shifting slushbox and as someone mentioned before, the V8 model WILL offer a manual. To the CTS owners here, who has the most mileage on theirs at this point? Right now my new car shopping list is in the following order: Cadillac CTS, Saab 9-3 Arc, Cadillac STS(low mileage good condition used), 04 Pontiac Grand Prix, and Mazda 6.

b4z · March 2003

CTS continues to be produced in higher numbers than the year before.
In fact it is Cadillac's only vehicle not to suffer a sales slump.
CTS production:
This week: 1420
This month: 5298
YTD: 14,452 vs. last year: 8,177.

production of the Deville, Seville and all 3 Escalade variations are down.

Cadillac:
YTD: 53,710 vs last year 56,390

Cadillac needs it's new product on line now!

wwhite2 · March 2003

Is this number ( 2% ) and accurate count of manuals produced ??

oldsman01 · March 2003

I think Cadillac needs another moderately priced vehicle as in these shaky economic times, a $50K+ vehicle may be hard to justify. And the fact the STS is nearly 6 years old, although still not a bad 6 year old car. I sometimes can't decide, brand new CTS or 2-3 year old STS. I know I know the CTS is the "new" direction of Cadillac and handles like a dream, but the STS is still a very classy looking car and there is something about the sound and feel of a Northstar V8 that attracts me.

oldsman01 · March 2003

Since it appears both the 3.2 and 3.6 liter engines will be offered in 04, anyone know how much extra the 3.6 will cost? If it is going to push the car up beyond my price range, then I may just start looking for deals on 03s as the model year closes later this summer.

richm4 · March 2003

I too have been contemplating the 04 GP vs. the CTS. The Grand Prix will save me $10K, but it's interior is still too downmarket for my tastes.

Initially, I thought the CTS interior was too cheap, however I have come to realize that's only because I was comparing it to the ES300. Love the Lexus, but the much maligned transmission problems have scared me away.

Thinking about getting the CTS by Monday so I can take advantage of $1000 GM Loyalty and $500 extra GM Master Card bonus rebates.

wwhite2 · March 2003

One of the things I miss about my 95 Elodrado ETC was the pull and the sound of the northstar , but It cant match the handling of my lux spt CTS . What color are you considering ?

richm4 · March 2003

Whatever car I choose I will be getting in Silver. I have a black Grand Prix now and while it looks great when clean, I really want something much easier to keep looking clean. I never had silver before, so I'm looking forward to having this color.

The silver CTS with the black interior really looks nice!

eaton53 · March 2003

Big SUV sales are down in general due to high gas prices... but thru February Cadillac's cars were selling quite well, with the DeVille about even with '02 (11562 vs. 11598) and the Seville way up (4826 vs. 3492).

bigdaddycoats · March 2003

If I remember correctly GM was hoping 10% would be produced with manual. I have heard that the actual number is 7-9%.
3.2 will only come with a manual for 04 and 3.6 wit auto only. I would guess that the auto 3.6 will be priced higher than the current auto 3.2. It also looks as though some options and packages are changing for 04. Hopefully prices don't go up to much. GM raised prices by quite a bit on the Aurora for the second model year and sales fell dramatically. Also, I believe that the CTS was supposed to list at a higher price but was cut by 2k or so just before sales began last year.

wwhite2 · March 2003

if Gm projected 10% of CTS builds with the manual trans and the actual # is 7-9 %.... Then why are some predicting the sky is falling by being totally negative of the manual sales . As we all know Americans like to rest their left leg . Now if Cadillac provides a BMW SMG II type automated 6 speed manual I WILL be in line for that ! then I can rest my left leg and excerise my shifting paddle fingers

mannytranny · March 2003

I was one of the small percent that bought a manual trans last June. I still really love driving this car. When I want an auto or "wanna be stick" auto , that's what I'll go looking for. I just don't like being excluded from something that was hiped as being a break through and turns out to be.... I think the manual will disappear from the CTS and only live on in the CTS V.
I have looked at the options list again for the 2004 Cts and I am puzzled about the manual trans packages. Although there are several new options included if I reading correctly, a manual trans cannot get the memory seats (A45), not even seperately buy it on a 2004. Strange since the 2003 has it.
Bigdaddycoats check this out and see if you concur.

jemiller · March 2003

If the number was actually that high, I'd consider that very good.

richw5 · March 2003

While I would not buy a "manny tranny" at this time in my life, I can understand the feelings of those who would. Cadillac should offer a "stick" on the 3.6L CTS, if it wants the age demographic of it's buyers to go down.

Go back to pmdriver2's comment the other day. He said, "I don't think the manny future is as dire as you may think". Something is coming that he can't tell us right now. I don't know if everyone can wait until it happens, but there is always the 3.2L with a stick or the CTS-V with a stick.

oldsman01 - I own a '99 STS along with our CTS. While I love the power and luxury of the STS, if I want to drive for fun, I take the CTS. If you look at the 0 to 60 stats, they are quite close. My CTS might even be a bit quicker due to the extra weight of a carriage roof on the STS. There is no comparison when it comes to handling. The CTS is a super star and the STS is sluggish.

Still, The STS says "Luxury" sitting on the driveway, while the CTS says "Sports". Whichever you choose, if it's your choice, you won't go wrong.

If the ecomony recovers, my STS will be traded for an SRX in a few years. At 60, I know my driving years are limited. I want to go out with a bang, not a whimper. As such, I will try to own the "sportiest" Caddy I can afford.

Rich

richw5 · March 2003

"demographic age", not age demographic.

Took the CTS in for the recall on Wednesday. It checked out OK. The mechanic said that they haven't found one with a loose bolt yet, but it was only the second day of the recall appointments. He said that the CTS has been their most "trouble free" car so far.

Rich

carnaught · March 2003

At 60 aren't you kind of young for a carriage roof?

(Sorry, no offense intended)

Cadillac CTS/CTS-V

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