Cadillac CTS/CTS-V

sevenfeet0 · June 2003

Gee, I never thought I'd start such a war about gearbox choice. I think it's just better if GM offered us a choice (like we get now on the normal CTS) and let people get what they want.

Can't we all just get along? ;-)

ffmcobalt · June 2003

mmmmmm LS6

:-D

lesstl1 · June 2003

The oil plug uses a torx T45. I purchased both a T45 and t47 onlythe T45 fit. By the way, what brand and number was the oil filter you purchased? My owners manual specified PF2245, but there is no crossreference to that number anywhere I look. AC Delco says the 03 CTS uses a PF2256G. The local Cadillac dealer wants $15 for the filter and $29.95 for oil change and filter. But I like to do my own oil.

ffmcobalt · June 2003

Were you driving mainstream highway or freeway most of your way? What kind of chips are we talking about here? Big rocks will chip anything. Light dust doesn't chip things easily.

rsteph · June 2003

Filter I got was a Carquest #84079. Looked (for all intents and purposes) just like the one that came out of the car and fit in just fine. Although (IMO only), that's the phoniest oil filter setup I've ever seen. Obviously, it must work fine but I'm wondering why Caddy didn't use the standard screw on cannister type filter. Anyone know if these cartridge things are supposed to work better???...or just what the point to them is??? Someone asked a while back about a floorjack fitting under the car and where to jack it up at. My large 3-ton jack slid under just fine and I used one of the main body beams under the drivers side to jack up at..(FYI, same place they put hoist feet in a dealer shop.)

missouri2 · June 2003

i drove mainstream and freeway. the windsheild got a lot of small pits and no big rocks ever hit me. the chips in the hood are small but deep.

jemiller · June 2003

Can't speak specifically for the CTS or the British 3.2 V6, but I know that our Bimmers that use the replaceable-element filters are the easiest oil changes I've ever done. Takes maybe ten minutes total, no mess, no fuss.

Also a much bigger filter element than most of the sealed canister-type filters.

What's old is new again - the Euro makes like them because they're 'greener' - fewer big lumps of steel being thrown in landfills.

wwhite2 · June 2003

I am coming up on my first one . I always do my own .Thanks for the tool info. The canister type filter is a European thing although some antique American cars have them as were oil bath air filters popular way back . I found a website that sells ACdelco. Save your receipts just like if you paid to have it done

gbriank · June 2003

Can anyone tell me a little more about this engine or lead me to a website with more info?

I am interested in the '04 CTS 3.6l. Is this engine just an enhanced 3.2? I am wary of buying a car with a new engine design.

b4z · June 2003

Newer cars have softer paint.
My Navy blue Impala has dozens of tiny pits on the paint. Some of which show the grey primer underneath.
I think these paints are water based, not solvent based.

Don't want to get flamed by anyone but I think the quality of the CTS's paint could be better.

I was beside a 330i today and its's black paint was almost flawless, while all the CTS's I have seen have noticeable orange peel and the paint seems to lack a little depth.

I never seen a Cadillac with the diamond paint that looked right. Always seems to be applied unevenly.

rsteph · June 2003

Found the OEM AC Delco filters at http://www.rockauto.com/
$9.86 ea. plus whatever shipping/tax they add on.
Anybody find them cheaper online???

rsteph · June 2003

Found the OEM AC Delco filters at http://www.rockauto.com/
$9.86 ea. plus whatever shipping/tax they add on.
Anybody find them cheaper online???

pmdriver · June 2003

Sevenfeet0, congrats! We're in this together - my wife and I are expecting our first ( a little girl) July 23rd. I think things are going to change a little bit in the work/life balance about then!

Jemiller, thanks for the link to the M5 owner's forum. A proud group, as they should be. I'd never seen the picture they had posted of us on the 'Ring. It's amazing the places those photos show up. By the way, your request for a CTS-V preview for your M5 owner's group wasn't ignored. I actually heard about that one (didn't know it was from you, small world!) but with the clinic going on out in California we couldn't make it work. We have two show properties at the moment making them very hot commodities. That doesn't however excuse you not being contacted directly with an explanation. Sorry.

Great discussion on manual vs. auto transmissions. In their purest forms they really do have separate missions and completely different selling points. However Jemiller hit it on the head - the CTS-V is a car developed with pretty specific tastes in mind and its low volumes reflect that.

B4Z, we took care of T56 gear rattle (which is somewhat inherent in most manuals) with a dual mass flywheel. No hint of neutral gear rattle or drive away rattle.

By the way, we've got two weeks off for the GM shutdown so I look forward to checking in more frequently!

rob35cts · June 2003

The new 3.6 is a brand new engine. It is the next generation of engines gm will be using.

I also feel the windshield chips easily. I already have a chip. 2300 miles

The guy who got his bezel fixed. What did they do? How is the part different? Does it seal off the edge so bugs don't get in it? I want to know what to tell them in the dealership.

rob35cts · June 2003

Did you guys follow the owners manual and change your trans fluid at 200 miles. I did change my oil at 500 miles. Have you changed your trans fluid at all? I didn't change my malibu as it has 100k trans fluid.

sevenfeet0 · June 2003

Exactly why I'm lobbying for a F-1 style shifter. I can live with rowing my own gears if I can avoid a third petal. And best of all, it's not hard to give a shifter like this an automatic mode if you want to be lazy. Everybody wins.

Have fun with your daughter! It's the hardest job you'll ever do (and even harder for your wife), but it's definetely the most rewarding.

b4z · July 2003

I had a feeling you guys would do something to make the T56 more refined.
Should be one hell of a car.

Do you guys have any plans for a Sport V6 model?
18" wheels, different grille, xenons, etc?
Kind of like what BMW does.

What do you think of my idea of seperating the xenons from the 1SB package and making them available on the base car with the PDX package?

Probably a marketing issue?

I am trying to get a pic of the new silver smoke.
Do you have a link to an actual pic?

Who'd ever thought that at the age of 40 I would be thinking of buying a Cadillac.
Cadillacs are cool again!

Thanks for all your hard work on the CTS.

necros · July 2003

So, if one were to get paddle shifters, how do you double clutch on it? Do you have to bump it all the way down through the gears to neautral, and then shift up? If so, no thanks. Or is there some sort of weirdo mechanism to make double clutching and heel-toe work on one of these things? F1 guys use it, so I assume there must be some way, unless theirs work completely differently...

jemiller · July 2003

Side note for you on dual-mass flywheels: the M5 has one (as you probably know), and it's a heavy beast, just over 50lb if memory serves.

Dinan sells two lighter flywheels for it. The lighter of the two is a nice old-fashioned slab of machined aluminum with a steel friction insert, think it weighs 14lb. But they'd had so much trouble with gear rollover rattle complaints in the past that before they'll sell you the 14lb flywheel, you have to sign an agreement that you've been warned about the rattle and you won't whine about it. I don't think they get many takers for that one.

The SMG-adapted T56 that Ford's got in the Astons is getting a lot of good press, can we assume someone somewhere's got this on the bench for future V-series use?

The oohing and aahing right now seems to be going to the dual-clutch SMGs that minimize interruption of power delivery during shifts. Was reading a blurb yesterday that at least one design can engage both first and second gears momentarily (presumably with a dose of clutch slip on both sides) on dragstrip launches so that all the shock loading doesn't go through the first-gear cogs, shafts, and bearings. Cute.

jemiller · July 2003

What double-clutching? What clutch?

In all the SMGs in hardware or on the drawing boards now clutch actuation isn't something the driver's foot has anything to do with.

You've got some with paddles, some with levers, but the basic premise is the same - one way upshifts, the other way downshifts. How abrupt the clutch engagement is depends on the guy who did the software calibrations (and some have driver-selectable degrees of neck-whip.)

Left-foot-stop, right-foot-go, just like M. Schumacher, or a 125cc shifter kart.

jemiller · July 2003

Everyone whines about soft paint now, but the domestics in general, and GM in particular, are probably doing better on paint now than they have any time since the mid '70s.

The Germans went to water-based paint in the '90s, there's been griping about that too, but frankly I think a lot of it is just that there's a lot more crap flying around the roads now.

bigdaddycoats · July 2003

Congratulations on your soon to arrive baby girl. They can be a lot of work, but so much fun. Nice to see you back and enjoy your two weeks off, it won't be so quiet pretty soon.

mannytranny · July 2003

I still don't have it fixed yet. They are still waiting on the part. I was ordered at the end of May. I just checked in with the parts guy and he said he has still not heard, could still be a couple of weeks? We've had a lot of heat here lately and the moisture seems to have almost disappeared. The bugs are still there though, but you gotta look close.

mannytranny · July 2003

I saw your pics on post #3614 and then noticed the topic about the missing emblems. I think that the idea is so cool. I ordered a set of CTS emblems and they should be here on Thursday. I can't wait to put them on the sides. After I saw the pics I just had to do it!.......Thanks!

b4z · July 2003

Well, I drove it today.
I went by to take a look at the '04 with the 3.6L and the General Manager said take it for a spin.

The first thing I noticed with the hood open was that it idles quieter, and that it takes Mobil 1 synthetic oil.

I noticed as soon as i turned the wheel that the
steering is lighter than the 2003 Lux that I drove 3 weeks ago.

It also has a slightly softer ride and a little more body roll.

This car only had a few miles on it so I kept it below 4500 rpms.

First off the transmission braking is hard to get used to. The car slows down when you take your foot off the gas. And it really slows down when in the Sport mode.

I started off from a stop in reg. mode and it definitely has more low end torque and verve. It really pulls well.

I did a couple of part throttle kickdowns and it really pulls strongly. Much stronger than the 3.2L.

The most telling thing was when I put it in the Sport mode. This thing holds low gears like crazy. It doesn't need an automanual. I went through a roundabout and then took a series of left and right curves and it never upshifted!

It also had all the power you could need. The rear tires actually squealed in one of the curves. And I never gave it more than 2/3rds throttle!

This car is any easy 6.7-6.8sec car. More powerful than my IROC and probably quicker in the turns also.

This engine just pulls and pulls. Torque above 3000 rpms is abundant. Much more than my Intrigue.

The only negative I saw was a vibration in the gearshift and the body structure is not the last word in rigidity. BMW's are about 5% better in body flex.

One heck of car. And plenty of power!

b4z · July 2003

I would have to say the 3.6L engine is a huge improvement that is noticeable with the transmission in both the regular mode and in the sport mode.

In the reg. mode it still has plenty of torque to move out smartly. Unlike the 3.2L which felt soft and underpowered once the car shifted into 2nd gear.

The engine sounds very sporty and there is lots of induction noise under acceleration. I would prefer more exhaust noise.
You know you are driving a real car when under acceleration.

I would have to say that the BMW inline six, the Nissan 3.5L and the Honda V6's are smoother.
But not by a huge margin. This engine is head and shoulders above the 3.2L.

The overall feel of the car and engine is very sporting with a mechanical feel much in the BMW vein.
Although the 3.6L might be a bit too agreesive sounding for the average CTS buyer.

The car is powerful enough that I think a CTS with Sport package could take a BMW 330i automatic on a mountain road.

I really want to buy this car soon.

rob35cts · July 2003

Let me know all about it when you get it fixed. I am really curious how this part is different. Where are the bugs at? Do you believe all of them are the same and all of us should get them fixed or does yours have a problem that the others do not have? I have bugs under the edge next to the paint but you cant get in to get it out.

oldsman01 · July 2003

How would you compare the new 3.6 liter with the Intrigue's 3.5?

b4z · July 2003

It is a completely different driving experience.
The CTS has a 3.45 gear vs. the Intrigue's 3.29 or 3.05 gear plus the CTS has a 5 speed auto with much lower 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gears.

The transmission is a revelation. It will hold a lower gear all by itself, and even if you lift off the gas for a couple of seconds it will not upshift!!

The car is noticeably quicker off the line. There is none of that softness from 0-20 that the Intrigue has.

It is also much more responsive to throttle inputs which are felt immediately. Feels like a sports car not a sedan.

I wanted to keep putting my foot into it to hear it and feel it pull.
Just like I did in my Intrigue but more so.
The torque band starts much lower, is wider and there is more of it.

Big improvement over the Shortstar.

dindak · July 2003

Sounds like you are sold on the car?

Thanks for the review. Nice to see the CTS is improving.

rayainsw · July 2003

Great discussion on manual vs. auto transmissions. In their purest forms they really do have separate missions and completely different selling points. However Jemiller hit it on the head - the CTS-V is a car developed with pretty specific tastes in mind and its low volumes reflect that. - pmdriver

First, I am very pleased to see participation on this forum by someone like pmdriver at GM. I hope it continues.

Regarding an automatic option for the CTS-v. I do hear what you are saying, pmdriver  but: I believe that since even some of the highest performance sports cars and sports sedans (for example: the Audi RS6, AMG M-B sedans, the Corvette, all current Ferraris and even the Porsche 911 Turbo  the BMW M5 clearly being a notable exception) offer some sort of automatic transmission, the CTS-v ought to as well.

My guess is that all of these (even with limited production volume) are offering this option driven by sales opportunities.

Thus, I believe it would be prudent for Cadillac to adapt something like the new Hydra-Matic 5L50-E 5 speed automatic from the XLR to the CTS-v. Or even the 4 speed automatic in current Corvettes, with something like the 04 GPs TapShift.

There are those who prefer an automatic, for any number of reasons - and those who will only buy an automatic. And my experience suggests that this does NOT mean they will not buy a high performance sedan. The recent developments in man-u-matics (my current and previous cars both offered this sort of device  with different interpretations of the genre) offer some of the best features of both manuals and automatic.

Just my $.015 worth  deflated this year . . .

Cheers,
- Ray
Very, very glad that GM has seen fit to produce a car like the CTS-v, regardless of transmission . . .

oldsman01 · July 2003

I can't say for b4z, but I'm sold on the CTS. As impressed as I was with the 03 model and it's 3.2 liter V6, I can only imagine what the 04 with the 3.6 is like. Hopefully by late summer or early fall dealers will have an ample supply and GMAC will run some decent lease residuals.

automole · July 2003

"However Jemiller hit it on the head - the CTS-V is a car developed with pretty specific tastes in mind and its low volumes reflect that."

I'd be interested in hearing what "specific tastes" Cadillac is catering to with the design of the CTS-V...?

It seems to me that there's a contradiction in the design of an all-out enthusiast's performance car that has 4 doors and a back seat but only offers a manual transmission.

...or a contradiction in the design of a sleek 2 seat convertible roadster on a high performance chassis that costs 80 thousand dollars yet has a measly 320HP and only offers an automatic transmission.

-I just don't "get it"!

b4z · July 2003

GM doesn't have a auto spec'd for the CTS that will handle the torque of the LS6.

After driving the CTS last night the Sport mode sems to know what gear it needs to be in.

Lots of engine braking when you lift off the gas.

necros · July 2003

Yeah, I guess that was kind of my point. With a SMG, going around a turn, at the limits of adhesion, and you shift down, and the driveline feels that shock, I don't want the back end kicking out more than I had planned. Just wondering how one gets around that issue in the SMG.

Also, with the dual-mass flywheel, one of the things that has always bugged me about my current CTS it is the heavy flywheel, preventing really quick spool-up when the clutch is disengaged. I wish I could get a lighter flywheel for the CTS...

sevenfeet0 · July 2003

...finally from the dealer after 7 business days. I hope this is the longest I'll ever be away from this car.

To recap, in the last 3 weeks, I've had happen:

1. A flat tire (piece of metal slashed the inside wall). Replaced.

2. Two days later, a wife-inflicted series of scratches from a lousy parking attempt in a parking deck. 4 days in the body shop.

3. On the way to the body shop, I noticed the two clocks weren't synced. *Sigh*. Another 3 days tacked onto the original body shop time estimate to replace the gauge cluster.

If it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all.

I should have figured that my wife would deliver our child last week when the car was in the shop, her OB and the child's pediatrician were both on vacation! Fortunately, my bad luck ran out with my wife and son. Both are doing well. :-)

But I'm really happy to get the CTS back. After driving a Deville rental for a week, I'm happy to get back to something that I can pitch into a corner and not worry about scads of understeer. Not to mention after years of previously driving Devilles, I ca no longer go back to that kind of ride. It's very smooth, but I like the road to speak to me.

And at least the body shop did a good job, although I've been told not to wax it for 1-2 months. And the new gauge cluster is working fine, although it might have been nice to get the new cluster with the water temp gauge....ok, maybe an upgrade is asking a bit too much. :-)

rayainsw · July 2003

Some SMG trans. will electronically 'blip' the throttle on downshifts - to help smooth the transition / 'shock'. I believe this requires a 'throttle by wire' arrangement.
Cheers,
- Ray
Hearing that the computer can do this more consistantly than most drivers . . .

jemiller · July 2003

"It seems to me that there's a contradiction in the design of an all-out enthusiast's performance car that has 4 doors and a back seat but only offers a manual transmission."

Is there?

BMW's had no problem finding buyers for 6-speed 540is, M5s, the E36 M3 sedan (BMWNA would like to have an E46 M3 sedan, but BMW AG would rather build an M3 wagon) etc.

There's a certain sweetness in an all-around useful car that's still got a hard edge. As I've said before about the M5 - there are many cars that do one thing better, but pretty much none that do everything as well.

And there is, rightly or wrongly, a VERY strong perception in what I'll call the 'serious enthusiast' community that a slushbox devalues a serious performance car. With sedans it's not to the level that an automatic in a Corvette or 911 tags the driver as a gold-chain-and-chest-hair type, but it still puts a dent in the cred.

The E55 and other blower Benzes are utter bullets in a straight line (a stock S600 is a legitimate low-12 quarter-mile car, high 11s with a software change) and their 100mph+ acceleration is hard even for full-fledged GTs to match, but in many corners they're not thought of as serious sports hardware.

Of course, it's not entirely justifiable - I personally can think of several cars that work very well with automatics, as long as you've got a fat-and-flat torque curve the lack of a limited-slip diff in the Benzes and Jaguar S-Type R is more of a limitation than the automatic transmission is.

But if you're GM and you're trying to say "This time we're serious", if you want to have a car that you can show up in the paddock at a BMWCCA track school and have people pay attention, you've got to have the manual.

Now, CVTs and SMGs and 6- and 7-speed conventional automatics muddy the waters pretty seriously, and in the end it's going to come down to whose combination of ratios and software works best.

"...or a contradiction in the design of a sleek 2 seat convertible roadster on a high performance chassis that costs 80 thousand dollars yet has a measly 320HP and only offers an automatic transmission."

Once again, I think you're misunderstanding the target market.

Cars like the XLR and the SL500 and the SC430 are Rodeo Drive shopping carts.

They're not serious sporting hardware, and they're not intended to be. They're cruisers. And for this role the automatic is the right choice.

The SL500 and XLR are far better cars than they need to be for the role they fill.

b4z · July 2003

it certainly felt like the CTS was matching revs during downshifts on my test drive.

b4z · July 2003

The '04 that I drove last night had the sunroof.
My head slightly touched the roof near the b- pillar.
You must be longer of leg than I to fit comfortably in the car.
I defintely can't have a CTS with the sunroof.
I also noticed that it cut into the rear headroom also.

sda · July 2003

It's a shame that Cadillac won't allow you to select stand alone options on the base CTS such as Sunroof, Bose and folding rear seat. I think the base CTS is nicely equipped, and its too bad that in order to even get a sunroof an expensive options package has to be purchased.

rfdevil1 · July 2003

After several date changes I was scheduled to pick up an 03 CTS today for a 24 hr test drive. I stopped by and they handed me the keys to a EXT (very nice but not what I was there for)so needless to say, they messed up and they weren't able to provide a CTS today for the 24hr drive. So I walked around back to check the CTSs on the lot and they had two 2004s that just came in today. One silver green, the other was light platinum I think. The dealer told me he would have an '04 ready for me tomorrow if I wanted to take one out (not for 24 hrs, but hey.)and it was the least they could do. I'm not sure if I'll have time but I'm going to try. Neither had the sport package but each had the 255 hp motor. Suddenly, the '03s were a little less appealing.

Also, personally, I like both the 16 and 17 inch wheels but there were two '03s side by side, one with the 17inch w/ sport package and one lux with 16 inchers. The 17 inch polished wheels definitely looked sharper IMO.

What to do, What to do....

iwinulose · July 2003

Secret video of the CTSV being played with at the strip!

http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/15017f98/bc/turbo+video/4+cts1170@- 117.MPG?BCus8A_ARA4aG_NH

iwinulose · July 2003

Secret video of the CTSV being played with at the strip!

http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/15017f98/bc/turbo+video/4+cts1170@- 117.MPG?BCus8A_ARA4aG_NH

b4z · July 2003

Link is not working for me.

jemiller · July 2003

Doesn't work here either.

gbriank · July 2003

Has anyone leased or Power Buy (i think thats what its called) on a CTS? I looked at the webpage and am calculating a 45% residual value after 3 yrs/15,000 miles usage. Can anyone confirm this?

regfootball · July 2003

45% is LOOOOOWWWWWWWWW, for honda anyways.

mcgreenx · July 2003

Gone for a few days and just noticed you're a daddy. Congratulations to you and mama. Better start saving up for med school tuition. Undergrad school will be here before you know it. I still remember with trauma the semester I had four college tuitions at one time!!! Don't know how I did it.

Just got a postcard from my dealer parts department that my "Lamp" is in, i.e., the leaky read license plate surround. Will have to make an appointment to have it installed.

mannytranny · July 2003

I just checked at my dealer and they said still haven't heard anything. What color is your car? My part was ordered at the end of May and still nada. Could it be that they are trying to get me a color-keyed surround and that's what the hold-up is all about? Let me know how long the 'operation' takes.

Cadillac CTS/CTS-V

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