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Mercedes 380--450--560 SLs

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Comments

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Just my opinion, but I wouldn't chrome the wheels...it doesn't strike me as appopriate for such a car--nor does anything concerning "performance". The car is built for comfort and luxury, so I think you should make any improvements in that area. Trying to turn it into a sportscar or a Camaro isn't going to work I don't think.

    That being said, yes, you can have the wheels trued and painted, or even powdercoated, which is a very durable finish.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    So how would you feel about Cragars and a small block?
  • dgraves1dgraves1 Member Posts: 414
    Is Cragar still around? I had Cragar S/Ss on my '70 Z/28 and thought they were the greatest looking wheel on earth. It seemed like Cragar was king of the hill back then. I haven't heard of them in years.
  • sddlwsddlw Member Posts: 361
    Mr Shiftright, I agree about the performance/luxury aspect. Actually I think I misstated the original wheel size. They are 14". And I think we will stick to the smaller wheels, larger sidewalls for comfort. I don't know about the chrome though. There are actually quite a few old SLs around So Cal with chrome wheels. I think they look pretty good with all of the other chrome accents on the car. My wife is realy hoping to get chrome. (Which is probably reason enough.) What is it you don't like about them?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I don't feel they are appropriate for a German car of this type. Chrome wheels belong on a Camaro or a Harley or a street rod. They de-value the car in my opinion, "tart it up" and make it look cheap, like you outfitted it at Grand Auto. But aside from the subjective taste issue, I can list some more "solid" reasons-- chrome is a terrible for heat dissipation, is expensive, and is maintenance-intensive.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    What we have here is more than the eternal purist vs. customizer debate. It's an example of the SoCal vs. Bay Area difference in style.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Sort of, but it's also a value question. As an appraiser, I take off value for something like this, as it is "non-stock" and also gives the car what is called in the business the "boy racer" look. I don't mean that as an criticism, only stating that your decision has a monetary consequence. Of course, we are not talking about
    a rare Ferrari, so maybe no big deal.
  • sddlwsddlw Member Posts: 361
    Well, if this was a collectable car, and we were trying to restore it to original and show condition, I'd say saying with OEM wheels would definately be the right thing to do. I have heard that even today, MBZ dealers are having the wheels chromed rather than getting factory chrome, so I guess that might imply the W107s never had stock chrome. .... But I just don't see that as being that big a deal on this 380SL. As you pointed out, it ain't no rare Ferrari. Besides, if a purest wanted the car down the road, how hard would it be to find stock wheels? The car already has tons of chrome, and my wife REALLY wants them.
  • dgraves1dgraves1 Member Posts: 414
    Considering earlier posts regarding spouse happiness, I'd say chrome it is!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    What can I say? I think they look terrible, but they're better than wire wheels on the car, I'd admit to that. Chrome is an "accent", like jewelry...too much is too much and it looks like too much. Less is more with chrome, especially on a German car. The idea is to highlight, but not emphasis the wheels over the rest of the car. It will look like ALL WHEEL with a body attached, I think. This is why some very nice older German cars have "beauty rims"...these are just chrome inserts into the steel hub...you may have seen these on older Porsche 356s and Karmann Ghias, etc. This gives the wheel some "flash" but not overkill.

    The stock rims are quite nice actually. If you've never seen powdercoating you really should check it out.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Probably the valve guides themselves are worn. For a more accurate idea of engine condition, you should have a cylinder leakdown test done; otherwise, compression tests can fool you...you can have good compression rings but bad oil rings, and that won't show on a regular compression test. Old Volvo engines are symptomatic of this latter type of problem.
  • ataieataie Member Posts: 84
    what's the widest tire I can put on MB W126? (83 500SE model)

    I'm replacing the current 14" rims with a newer MB 16", and want to fill the fender gap as much as possible. Was thinking 225x60x16, but wasn't sure. any ideas anyone???
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    What I've always done is have my tire shop fit one on a lift and then look over the clearances. This is hard to predict from a chart. Maybe the MB Club can help on this. Just offhand, I don't think it will work.
  • merckxmerckx Member Posts: 565
    Not an SL question-hope that's OK.I'm going to look at a 1966 Mercedes 220S-asking $3750.Odo shows 21000;I'm thinking 221000 is mostlikely.I'm really not expecting much from it,just slow weekend drives with it.I've always loved old Mercedes.A/C doesn't even work,and I don't mind.That's how little I expect it to be like a modern car.I don't want to have to junk it months from now because of a huge repair.
    It's got an automatic,and I know that lacking a modern torque converter,it shirts very rough.In the few I've driven in the past,I've always been so overly light on the gas pedal-that's how much the rough shift seems like impending doom.Are these old automatics best avoided?What do you think of the car I've described?What would be a good price to offer the seller?
    As I say,I really would just want the car to last as a fun weekend car.Thanks for any advice you or anyone elsecan offer.
  • merckxmerckx Member Posts: 565
    Thanks for your input.At idle,car had a fairly noticable blue-white plume from tailpipe.Ran my finger inside pipe-oily and readily black.Does this automatically imply such an expensive repair that i should walk away?Brand new paint-suspiousally thick-I found one rust bubble.Bottom of one rear quarter panel solid bondo-again,automatically out?I don't want to be too critical of an inexpensive car.It drives perfectly,shifts much smoother tnan I rember.Chrome perfect,new black paint.whitewalls-ithink the car looks magnificent!(at first glance).Should I keep looking?Can you estimate what the engine repair might cost?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Rust is unavoidable with these cars, and really, being so old, one would expect it to burn oil. The question for you, I think is:

    How much oil?
    How much rust?

    You might pull up the spare tire and see how bad it is (I'm sure you'll find rust there or the sign of former rust).

    If the rust has been bondo-ed, it will return, absolutely...the only way to properly repair rust is to cut it out, and even then it comes back sooner or later.

    You can test for bondo with a simple refrigerator magnet...if the magnet falls off, you have a lot of bondo in there...

    Bondo was never meant to be use thickly...it is supposed to be a thin sheet of covering for file marks and small imperfections. If the bondo is any more than say 1/16 of an inch, it will crack and fall out soon enough.

    So I think you need to dig a little deeper here and also figure out how much oil this car consumes. Oil burning isn't bad, per se, if it's not excessive...but if it's eating a quart every few hundred miles, the end is probably near.
  • brislance1brislance1 Member Posts: 87
    I looked at the above car today. It was brought in by an American surgeon new in 1984 and converted to American spews when it arrived in port. The second owner has had it for 5 years and it is in immaculate condition. Cared for by the same mechanic for the last five years. He says the car needs nothing and is in outstanding condition. The owner has all manuals and all repair tickets. It has 68 thousand miles documented by repair tickets. Is it worth $19,000 or does a car converted to American spews lose value? Give me a quick answer if possible. Thanks in advance. What are the pitfalls of buying a car like this?
  • brislance1brislance1 Member Posts: 87
    In the above message spews should read specs. Sorry about that.
  • sddlwsddlw Member Posts: 361
    I'm looking for some guidance on care of the soft-top on our SL. The current top is a 1-year-old canvass, European style with no vinyl in it. It has been washed periodically with water, but no detergent. I’d like to clean it up and treat it with a preservative if this is appropriate, but do not have any information on the subject. Also, the windows are made of a very soft and easily scratched vinyl. I’m using flannel and/or cotton towels to clean them with, to avoid scratching as much as possible, but am interested in hearing about other’s solutions to this problem.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    There are lots of good products on the market for washing convertible tops. You could check with the MB dealer or stroll through the aisles of a good auto parts store for that. I believe BMW also makes a good product, as their tops are similar to MB.

    I think what kills convertible tops, aside from the obvious (cats and automatic car washes) is in the top storage. It can't be stored wet and it can't be stored dirty. As for the plastic window, my rule of thumb is that you get two plastic windows for each top, that is, one top willlast the life of two windows. They are fregile and there is only so much you can do. Some folks put a very light cloth on the window before they hit the down button, and this keeps the window from "kinking".
    But scratches, well, you're going to get them sooner or later.

    Another enemy of plastic windows in the sun, but fortunately for your car when your top is down it is automatically stowed under a cover. But if you leave a plastic window exosed to hot summer sun day after day, you'll fry it.

    What kills convertible tops in a car wash is not the detergent or brushes but the force of the blowers that dry the car. It causes the top to flap and vibrate and loosens the stitching.
  • dubo1dubo1 Member Posts: 3
    Hi there,
    Unfortunately, I have to start out with a very stupid question....What is the difference between an SL and an SEL? (yah -- I'm a chick) I have just started looking at Mercedes. I know I like the look of the 420SEL (81 to 87), but when reading some of these posts I am getting the impression that it might not be too good of an idea with gas prices and the cost of repairs. (any ideas on which model minimizes both?)

    My question is, what would be the best bet between the 300 and 560 series, both SL and SEL. I don't necessarily need a V8 if a V6 is still going to provide reasonable speed and handling. I'm looking more for comfortable cruising rather than quick off the line. I would like to spend no more than 10k and would like to find one with 115k miles or below. Am I being reasonable?

    I know enough to make certain that the seller has the maintenance book, or at least a reasonable amount of the service records, as the key to the future health of the mercedes is its past maintenance....right?

    Oh yah, I should mention that my reason for getting this car is to eliminate a car payment and to have something bigger/safer the the VW Jetta I have now, as I will eventually be transporting a baby around.

    Thanks so much in advance! I appreciate your help.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Okay!

    An SEL is a sedan, a stretched version of a regular 4-door. So if you want a BIG 4-door, that's any of the SELs.

    SLs are 2-door convertibles, usually with both soft and hard tops.

    The best SLs are undoubtedly the 560SLs. Earlier SLs, such as the 350, 380 and 450, are decent cars, and often quite cheap to buy, but they can be slow, gas-hungry and not so reliable as they age.

    All Mercedes cost a bundle to repair, there is no way around this except buying the most impeccable, clean, well-maintained car you can.

    There is no shortage of Mercedes SLs on the market. You can take your time shopping. Any car with a "story", or any owner who cannot present a complete or reasonably complete record of service should not be considered.

    Also, despite the reputation for durability, Mercedes wear out just like any other machine, so excessive high mileages should be avoided. If you see an exceptional high mileage car, you should only buy it if it is heavily discounted. I would say mileages exceeding 150K are excessive, and mileages over 125K are borderline. You have to remember that a rebuilt engine for a Mercedes SL will often exceed the value of the entire car! ($!2,000-16,000 for a complete rebuild).

    Last of all, I don't see this as a move toward economy for you, if you are moving out of Jetta payments. With maintenance and the occasional repair, the difference per month between a new car under warranty with payments and a used SL with repairs and maintenance is not going to be very much IMO....if you are lucky, you might save $100 a month, but then again, you might not. All used cars are gambles.

    Really last of all (phew!), I could not say with any confidence that an older Mercedes SL, say without air bags, would be substantially safer than your Jetta. Accidents are dynamic and unpredictable in outcome....you really can't 'buy" safety, it's often a matter of luck.

    Anyway, if having a convertible isn't such a big deal for you, and you're content with a coupe or sedan, you might think about a newer and smaller Mercedes sedan, like a 300 series, or a luxury Japanese coupe such as a Lexus. An SL is not a cheap car to own.
  • merckxmerckx Member Posts: 565
    It appears that you only have a casual knowledge of Mercedes,so,not appearing to have the borderline obsession Mercedes can inspire,how about an early 90s Infiniti Q45?I think they are a little undervalued on the used car market.Like a Benz SEL,it is a large,roomy car that is a lot of fun to drive.Being a bit of a poor seller,it's a little exotic to the casual observer,but still very reliable.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Also a car I like, the Q45, but also tricky to buy and a complex car that isn't easy to work on. A lexus of that era is about bullet-proof, and I suspect that is really what she wants...no headaches.
  • dubo1dubo1 Member Posts: 3
    Thank you for your feedback Mr. Shift right & merckx -- although it wasn't exactly what I wanted to hear :-) OK maybe it isn't all about economy. Correct, I have only casual knowledge of the mercedes, but I have more than a casual desire to own a big, shiny sedan with a lot of chrome. (I don't want a convertible) It would also look a little more professional in my image conscious line of business, than my Jetta.

    Given that, I know I want either a 1985 380 SEL (is this the only year they made 380 SELs?), or a 81-87 420 SEL, 500 or 560 SEL. Am I better going with a 380 due to lower maintenance and gas costs, or is it not as good a car?

    Also, what about diesel -- the 300 SD, should I steer clear for any reason?

    I don't mind minor headaches. Is there any reason other than getting a not well maintained car that I could anticipate spending more than $2000 a year on maintenance? (That is half of my current annual car payment) I'm figuring $650 for annual fluid drain, or whatever they call it, 4 or 5 oil changes a year at $40 each or $200 and then $1200 in misc. This of course being on a car that has 110k miles or less starting out.

    Again, thank you. I should have been a little more upfront about my excitement at the possibility of owning a nice comfy, classic looking car. Please give me your thoughts, I appreciate it.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yes, I think a budget of $150/200 a month for a used luxury sedan is about right if you take excellent care of it. The 380SEL is too old I think. The 300SD is a great car in that you get big car room and comfort but with great diesel economy and reliability. Most common issues with the Mercedes sedans of the 1980s is faulty climate control systems and silly radios. So you need to have the climate controls checked thoroughly and you can throw any Becker radio over the fence. Also check for slow power windows.

    The 300E Series would be a nice choice. The problem with the 420 and 500SELs is that they are HUGE cars, and parking or maneuvering in traffic could be a real pain.
  • merckxmerckx Member Posts: 565
    I started with the Q45 as I thought money was an issue.It's a car not many seem to want-that's why you can get a great deal on one. The Lexus LS400 is also an excellent car.It and the Q45 sold for about the same price new,but now the Infiniti is thousands less.If you are not on a strict budget,by all means go Mercedes-they are wonderful cars.
    Many seem to feel the various S-class sedans 1981-1991 were a high point for the marque.But they are quite large,and,indeed,the air conditioning typically goes south.The six cylinder SEL,the 300, is a good one.I've heard the first all aluminium 8,the 380,is troublesome.The last generation S,1992-1999,are rather ponderous-notice the current ones have been pared back.The Sd is 4 inches shorter in the back seat,and therefore a bit more maneuverable.The diesel is bullitproof,but noisy and a little truck-like.
    The smaller E-class is more reasonable in every way,but they lacy the presence of the larger S-class.
    How about a 1990 300SEL?
  • dubo1dubo1 Member Posts: 3
    Mr. Shiftright & merckx, thank you both for some good advice and the starting point I needed as I begin my search.

    Given your advice, I know where to begin looking and comparing. I'll take a look at the 90 300 SEL, as well as try to find a SD, which I am imagining are a bit more scarce. I'm glad to hear about the issues with the climate control in the sedans. I was wondering why some of the ads I have seen make specific mention of the AC working well.

    If you don't mind, I may eventually be back with more specific questions as I narrow down my choices.

    All the best and thank you again.
  • nszabonszabo Member Posts: 19
    www.adsitco.com It has all the mercedes parts
  • jhpghjhpgh Member Posts: 2
    I drove the above car today. The dealer has most of the service records and the odometer reflects about 58,000 miles. The body has no visible rust and has had some minor body work. It handles very nice but hesitates from a start. What are the possible reasons for the hesitation? The dealer's price is $24,000 but is willing to negotiate. Does this seem like a good price? What else should I check before making an offer? I know I'm asking alot of questions but I'm trying not to make a mistake. Any assistance is greatly appreciated!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think the car is priced a bit too high for a less than pristine example, and there should be NO hesitation whatsoever. So the dealer needs to drop the price to reflect the cosmetic mishaps and fix the car, then you can talk.

    You should remember that Mercedes prices drop DRASTICALLY if the cars are not absolutely spotless.

    A perfect '88 560SL can sell from $23K-27K....so less than perfect? Low 20s on down.
  • samzurc1samzurc1 Member Posts: 19
    This car is in good condition , Has 110,000 miles for 11,000 obo. Good price or what.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It's just retail. You can buy them all day long for that. But it's market rate, so no complaints about the asking price. A "good" price would be under $10K.
  • joanfyjoanfy Member Posts: 3
    Hi Mr. Shiftright,

    Been reading through the bulletin board postings and noticed that you have an affinity for the 560SL. I happen to own an '89 and am in the process of selling it. Getting lots of calls, but nothing serious. It's in excellent condition both mechanically and cosmetically, but has 150K miles. Valve guide seals were repaired at 120K. I love the car and hate to sell it, but I'm a family of 4 now and it's very impractical. Could hang onto it as a classic, but it wouldn't get driven much. Can you give me some advice on a fair asking price? I know you suggest a deep discount once the car has reached 150K. Just how deep?

    joanfy
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I like the 560SL as the best of the V8 SLs, but it's not really my ALL-TIMEfavorite SL.

    But that's not your problem! YOUR problem is selling your car.

    Yes, high mileage is a discouragement to buyers, there is no doubt about it. Maybe if you gave me an idea of what you have been asking, I could suggest some negotiated price.

    Also a factor is the car's cosmetic appearance (more important than how it runs, sad to say but true) and also your maintenance records---these are additional factors that will determine price.

    So give me some more info and maybe we can come up with a strategy. Also, what is your approximate geographic location? (If you are in a climate with a "long thermometer", these cars are harder to sell at summer's end.
  • joanfyjoanfy Member Posts: 3
    Hey Shiftright,

    Haven't logged in for awhile 'cuz I was having a baby instead. Now that he's here, I'd love to get my garage back. It's tough loading and unloading the kids on a hill.

    So, if cosmetics have anything to do with it, I should have no problem unloading this 560SL. No door dings, no dents, no tears in the leather, new rag top, no rust, a little paint touch up on the hood. It's excellent, excellent, excellent!! Retail blue book is $20K and wholesale is $12K. We've been asking $17K, but would be happy with $15K. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, so the weather should hold out for another couple of months.

    I'm getting lots of calls, but no lookers. Look forward to your reply.
  • joanfyjoanfy Member Posts: 3
    I also have all maintenence records for the past 7 years. I don't have the records from the previous owner.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    joanfy, you should contact the poster of response #81...seems like an active looker.

    You should be able to sell for $15K. I have some ideas...e-mail and I'll send you a list of people to contact and cheap places to advertise.
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    89 560SLs are still in VERY strong demand...

    Pricing on some would shock you....

    That being said, if this car is really in excellent cosmetic shape... It could still do $10-11K at a dealer auction, so Ithink that $15K is realistic if its' ready to go...

    (I've seen some VERY low mileage ones do $27-33K at auction (Wholesale).. but then we're talking 30K or less miles and as new. In reality, a 15-20K mile car that basically can't be told from new.

    Shocking $$ when you think about it..

    Bill
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It is shocking but when you compare the price to a new SL, it's not quite as bizarre a price structure. Still, the 560SL is the older body style and can't be much differentiated (if at all) from the 450SL, which is a pretty cheap used car. So the idea of paying over $30K for a 12 year old car that looks exactly like a 25 year old $10K used car does make me wonder what people are doing.

    The allure of an older Benz with such few miles is irresistable I guess, but personally I think paying a premium for low miles is rather foolish.
    If you drive the car, the miles go up and the price plummets to the usual $18K-25K range for super sharp 560SLs...if you don't drive the car, what is the point? The V8 SLs are not going to be classics (too many made) so holding on to one for an "investment" is better for a 3 year old than for you, because it's going to be a long, long time for that car to appreciate in value.
  • michml320michml320 Member Posts: 42
    Do you have a pic you can send me? How about one of the car? lol. Seriously, do you have a pic of the car? I'm in Michigan. I am interested.
  • tony114tony114 Member Posts: 6
    Hi everyone, I'm a new member, and I just purchased a1986 560 Sl, and I am looking for a repair manual. I have looked through Amazon.com, almost all of the on line sources, and cannot find a manual for the 560. Since I'm a gear head from away back, I feel lost without a manual. The only thing I have found that needs attention on this car is the front end, it seems to drift a little at speeds of 25 to 45. At 50 to 75 it seems to hold the road as a MB should. Since this is my first Benz, I would like to know if .1) this is a common problem .2) where can I find a repair manual dedicated to the 560 & .3) is the Biz Ben a reliable source for parts. Oh the car has 103,000 original miles.

    Thanks
    tony114
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The dealer has the manual!
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Yeah but where's the challenge in that?
  • fischdafischda Member Posts: 272
    I need help - new to this forum.

    My wife's grandfather just died and left his 450SL to the family (trust, not will). I need to find out what this baby is worth to help estate matters:

    It's a '78 with ONLY 15,846 ORIGINAL miles on it. This beige/cream beauty with tan leather has never seen the road on a rainy or even humid day. I mean it's 100% pristine with only a perfectly replaced dented bumper against its record. It has both soft and hard tops, and auto trans (probably only came w/auto, right).

    Car was appraised for insurance maybe ten years ago, but I need to know how much it's worth now. Short of getting another professional appraisal, I'd like your opinions, ballpark figures, and ideas for other sources. Your help is greatly appreciated!! --Dave
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well, hard to say if someone will pay for those low miles or not. The problem is that the car is not a collectible (they made too many of them) and so a person who wants one would want to drive it. They do make nice cruisers. Only problem is, if they are going to drive it, why pay extra for the low miles, since that "valuable" part will soon be used up.

    So you see the dilemma--convincing someone to pay very much extra for low miles on a car that is not going to appreciate in the future.

    I'd say the best you can hope for is the very highest range of these cars currently, which is about $13,500 for a real beauty, and then add a bit onto that for the exceptional low mileage...so maybe $15,000 is all the money in the world for this car.

    You can ask more certainly, but if you really want to sell it in a reasonable amount of time, I don't think there's any more money in it.

    One reason is that if you go any higher, you are in 560SL territory, which looks like a 450SL but is a much more refined and developed car.

    Also, the color is unfortunate and may hurt value.
  • tony114tony114 Member Posts: 6
    I have called several MB dealers and no one has a manual for the 560. HELP!!

    I have even looked at Amazon.com and they don't have one. I have found all the 450's, but I need a 560 for the tune up aspect. I also need the manual for the front end and steering box details. Is the 450 manual OK to use for the steering box and front end work???

    Tony 114
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    .....generally there is a wide variety of automotive miscellania (OK, ALL types, not just automotive) there, and likely cheaper than buying it from a dealer or publisher.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I am quite surprised, skeptical even, that a quality MB dealer would not have all these manuals available.

    But if in fact this is the case, I suggest you write to MB customer assistance center, One Glenview Road, Montvale, NJ 07645

    Host
  • asc63asc63 Member Posts: 6
    Hi, I'm new to the forum, and hope it is still an active one... I am going to be acquiring (through my family) a 1980 450SL (white with navy interior, both tops navy), which has been garage kept for 22 years, and has only 4100 (yes, four thousand, one hundred) miles on it. My concern is that the white paint looks dull and dirty. Do you think it's worth having the car detailed professionally, or can I perform the necessary labor intense work myself? I'm not sure how to proceed. Any feedback would be welcome!
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