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Toyota Matrix Engine Questions
Hello, this is a copy of my first post which I originally made in the Toyota Matrix sub-forum, and after I noticed how quickly it was buried by the large volume of new threads, I decided to repeat it here where the waters seem much calmer and it's more likely to be seen.
If you have been a member of any of the following forums: matrixowners.com, genvibe.com, corolland.com, toyotanation.com, then you may have already been made aware of an issue that has occurred in nearly 14% of Matrix/Vibe/Corolla owners (2003 model and up) according to my unscientific polls. Naturally 14% is an unrealistic high ratio since many owners without this problem are not members of internet forums or don't always vote in every poll they read. Nevertheless, hundreds of posts in several threads have been logged and since I stumbled across the EDMONDS forum by accident, I wanted to take the opportunity to invite any of the uninitiated here to be privileged with the information posted elsewhere.
So far we are 20 owners who all share the same 1800 cc engine, be it Matrix, Vibe, or Corolla, and have exactly the same symptom. In a nutshell, a very small number of these cars came off the assembly line during all of the last 3 years with some particular engine actuator or sensor which behaves in an unusual manner so that the engine computer slowly makes changes to the fuel tables or timing over the course of several days during the cold of winter.
The net result is that the engine idle speed which in a normal car is about 1800 rpm during the second minute following a cold start, becomes 2300 rpm in cars with this issue, and only in cars with manual transmissions. Reseting the computer makes the problem go away for a few days.
The excessively high rpms is probably due to the engine software having altered on purpose the amount of fuel, air and timing being admitted to the engine. But within the engine software appears to be a built in safety routine which independently decides that 2300 rpm is too fast a speed for the predicted amount of fuel and air, and the engine gets momentarily shut off until the rpms fall back into the safe zone which is below 1500 rpm. Once the engine is turned back on before stalling, it quickly revs back up to 2300 rpm, and the whole cycle repeats over and over 10 to 30 times during the second minute. The colder the weather, the more cycles. This cycling ends when the engine enters an new phase (probably when the heated oxygen sensors begin to function) and the idle then drops to a normal speed and all is stable.
Once this event has occurred at the start of the day, the computer never lets it happen again for the rest of the day. The car must sit outdoors overnight for the problem to repeat the next morning.
What does Toyota say? As you can imagine, it has been frustrating for many of us 20 owners because by the time we get the car to the dealer, the problem has disappeared for the day. However, I was able to leave the car overnight at my dealership's outdoor parking lot, and the blessed event got recorded on the dealership's scan tool.
This scan took place in January 2005 and following two failed attempts by my dealership to fix the problem, Toyota Canada, after some prodding, acknowledged the issue is so complex that that a solution would have to come from their engineering team in Japan. I was promised that research would start in the fall of 2005 (when it would be cold again) and any updates would be communicated through my dealership. Winter 2006 came and went without any notification or responses.
I should add that many mechanics across North America who have had to deal with this issue approached the problem with varying solutions, all without success. We have examples of changing the computer, the MAF sensor, the idle air valve, the O2 sensor, and it goes on and on.
Normally when there is an engine sensor that is grossly out of calibration, the engine computer generates a CEL warning and logs an error code. But should a defective sensor or actuator be just within the level of tolerance of the computer, then no error code will be generated, but the long term adaptive antipolution strategy might nevertheless be upset enough to unwittingly increase the cold idle rpms above a safe limit. For this reason I have to blame in part the engine software for not being more intelligent in monitoring when there is an instability occuring due to a slight mechanical defect in the engine. The problem is that the computer normally communicates using the OBD-II protocol and this protocol does not include a provision for such an instability. Engine software is assumed to be bug free.
I am providing the following link to one of the forum threads I set up elsewhere. You can listen to a MP3 audio recording of the engine during its unstable state and then judge for yourself if this issue applies to you. You can also link to similar threads at other forums where a comment can be posted or a vote can be cast for the vehicle (Matrix/Vibe/Corolla) which concerns you.
link title
To hear the recording, you have to re-link to the Vibe forum where the recording is hosted.
I look forward to reading any comments posted in this thread or elsewhere.
Lastly, it surprises me that this issue has remained so invisible to organizations like the AAA and the like who would want to flag this issue as part of their reviews of second hand Matrix/Vibe/Corolla cars.
And even more surprising is that Toyota appears to be in no hurry to get to the bottom of this. I would have expected their engineers to have strapped a monitor on my car's computer so that they could gather all the data available in order to ensure that this problem is not carried into their next generation of engines.
If you have been a member of any of the following forums: matrixowners.com, genvibe.com, corolland.com, toyotanation.com, then you may have already been made aware of an issue that has occurred in nearly 14% of Matrix/Vibe/Corolla owners (2003 model and up) according to my unscientific polls. Naturally 14% is an unrealistic high ratio since many owners without this problem are not members of internet forums or don't always vote in every poll they read. Nevertheless, hundreds of posts in several threads have been logged and since I stumbled across the EDMONDS forum by accident, I wanted to take the opportunity to invite any of the uninitiated here to be privileged with the information posted elsewhere.
So far we are 20 owners who all share the same 1800 cc engine, be it Matrix, Vibe, or Corolla, and have exactly the same symptom. In a nutshell, a very small number of these cars came off the assembly line during all of the last 3 years with some particular engine actuator or sensor which behaves in an unusual manner so that the engine computer slowly makes changes to the fuel tables or timing over the course of several days during the cold of winter.
The net result is that the engine idle speed which in a normal car is about 1800 rpm during the second minute following a cold start, becomes 2300 rpm in cars with this issue, and only in cars with manual transmissions. Reseting the computer makes the problem go away for a few days.
The excessively high rpms is probably due to the engine software having altered on purpose the amount of fuel, air and timing being admitted to the engine. But within the engine software appears to be a built in safety routine which independently decides that 2300 rpm is too fast a speed for the predicted amount of fuel and air, and the engine gets momentarily shut off until the rpms fall back into the safe zone which is below 1500 rpm. Once the engine is turned back on before stalling, it quickly revs back up to 2300 rpm, and the whole cycle repeats over and over 10 to 30 times during the second minute. The colder the weather, the more cycles. This cycling ends when the engine enters an new phase (probably when the heated oxygen sensors begin to function) and the idle then drops to a normal speed and all is stable.
Once this event has occurred at the start of the day, the computer never lets it happen again for the rest of the day. The car must sit outdoors overnight for the problem to repeat the next morning.
What does Toyota say? As you can imagine, it has been frustrating for many of us 20 owners because by the time we get the car to the dealer, the problem has disappeared for the day. However, I was able to leave the car overnight at my dealership's outdoor parking lot, and the blessed event got recorded on the dealership's scan tool.
This scan took place in January 2005 and following two failed attempts by my dealership to fix the problem, Toyota Canada, after some prodding, acknowledged the issue is so complex that that a solution would have to come from their engineering team in Japan. I was promised that research would start in the fall of 2005 (when it would be cold again) and any updates would be communicated through my dealership. Winter 2006 came and went without any notification or responses.
I should add that many mechanics across North America who have had to deal with this issue approached the problem with varying solutions, all without success. We have examples of changing the computer, the MAF sensor, the idle air valve, the O2 sensor, and it goes on and on.
Normally when there is an engine sensor that is grossly out of calibration, the engine computer generates a CEL warning and logs an error code. But should a defective sensor or actuator be just within the level of tolerance of the computer, then no error code will be generated, but the long term adaptive antipolution strategy might nevertheless be upset enough to unwittingly increase the cold idle rpms above a safe limit. For this reason I have to blame in part the engine software for not being more intelligent in monitoring when there is an instability occuring due to a slight mechanical defect in the engine. The problem is that the computer normally communicates using the OBD-II protocol and this protocol does not include a provision for such an instability. Engine software is assumed to be bug free.
I am providing the following link to one of the forum threads I set up elsewhere. You can listen to a MP3 audio recording of the engine during its unstable state and then judge for yourself if this issue applies to you. You can also link to similar threads at other forums where a comment can be posted or a vote can be cast for the vehicle (Matrix/Vibe/Corolla) which concerns you.
link title
To hear the recording, you have to re-link to the Vibe forum where the recording is hosted.
I look forward to reading any comments posted in this thread or elsewhere.
Lastly, it surprises me that this issue has remained so invisible to organizations like the AAA and the like who would want to flag this issue as part of their reviews of second hand Matrix/Vibe/Corolla cars.
And even more surprising is that Toyota appears to be in no hurry to get to the bottom of this. I would have expected their engineers to have strapped a monitor on my car's computer so that they could gather all the data available in order to ensure that this problem is not carried into their next generation of engines.
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Comments
Am I the only one to have this problem so early in the car's life? That's what the Toyota dealership is telling me.
Thanks for your help.
S
As far as maintenance... what maintenance? It's not like gasket balm has to be applied twice a year... the only thing that legitimately makes head gaskets go bad is warping the head, usually after coolant is lost.
-Mathias
Sandy
Remain cool but firm. Throw in a few compliments (Toyota has a good reputation for building quality vehicles. However, it appears that they may have messed up on this one.) If they mention that the warranty has expired, respond with the fact Toyota maintained it and it's a Toyota. That's why you purchased it, to avoid these types of problems.
Continue with; based on the fact that Toyota has maintained the vehicle, what do you suggest? I'm hoping that you offer some assistance.
I think you get the drift.
If that doesn't work, take it to the next level. Don't get angry. Although it may be difficult, remain calm, cool, composed and collected. Stick to the facts. Keep at them until a satisfactory solution is acheived. It can be frustrating. Good luck.
They say that the sealant used at the factory is the white kind and that the factory uses white to seal most of the engine but in some places uses the black sealant which is actually better. They said that they will reseal the Timing Chain cover with the black sealant. They also showed me exactly where they think the leak is using an engine sitting on a shelf.
They washed off the area and I'll be driving it for the next several days and then we'll check again to see if that's where the leak actually starts.
So ya'll that know the interior of the Toyota Matrix engine, does the Timing Chain Cover sit on the upper side of the Head Gasket?
Thanks so much.
If you have been a member of any of the following forums: matrixowners.com, genvibe.com, corolland.com, toyotanation.com, then you may have already been made aware of an issue that has occurred in nearly 14% of Matrix/Vibe/Corolla owners (2003 model and up) according to my unscientific polls. Naturally 14% is an unrealistic high ratio since many owners without this problem are not members of internet forums or don't always vote in every poll they read. Nevertheless, hundreds of posts in several threads have been logged and since I stumbled across the EDMONDS forum by accident, I wanted to take the opportunity to invite any of the uninitiated here to be privileged with the information posted elsewhere.
So far we are 20 owners who all share the same 1800 cc engine, be it Matrix, Vibe, or Corolla, and have exactly the same symptom. In a nutshell, a very small number of these cars came off the assembly line during all of the last 3 years with some particular engine actuator or sensor which behaves in an unusual manner so that the engine computer slowly makes changes to the fuel tables or timing over the course of several days during the cold of winter.
The net result is that the engine idle speed which in a normal car is about 1800 rpm during the second minute following a cold start, becomes 2300 rpm in cars with this issue, and only in cars with manual transmissions. Reseting the computer makes the problem go away for a few days.
The excessively high rpms is probably due to the engine software having altered on purpose the amount of fuel, air and timing being admitted to the engine. But within the engine software appears to be a built in safety routine which independently decides that 2300 rpm is too fast a speed for the predicted amount of fuel and air, and the engine gets momentarily shut off until the rpms fall back into the safe zone which is below 1500 rpm. Once the engine is turned back on before stalling, it quickly revs back up to 2300 rpm, and the whole cycle repeats over and over 10 to 30 times during the second minute. The colder the weather, the more cycles. This cycling ends when the engine enters an new phase (probably when the heated oxygen sensors begin to function) and the idle then drops to a normal speed and all is stable.
Once this event has occurred at the start of the day, the computer never lets it happen again for the rest of the day. The car must sit outdoors overnight for the problem to repeat the next morning.
What does Toyota say? As you can imagine, it has been frustrating for many of us 20 owners because by the time we get the car to the dealer, the problem has disappeared for the day. However, I was able to leave the car overnight at my dealership's outdoor parking lot, and the blessed event got recorded on the dealership's scan tool.
This scan took place in January 2005 and following two failed attempts by my dealership to fix the problem, Toyota Canada, after some prodding, acknowledged the issue is so complex that that a solution would have to come from their engineering team in Japan. I was promised that research would start in the fall of 2005 (when it would be cold again) and any updates would be communicated through my dealership. Winter 2006 came and went without any notification or responses.
I should add that many mechanics across North America who have had to deal with this issue approached the problem with varying solutions, all without success. We have examples of changing the computer, the MAF sensor, the idle air valve, the O2 sensor, and it goes on and on.
Normally when there is an engine sensor that is grossly out of calibration, the engine computer generates a CEL warning and logs an error code. But should a defective sensor or actuator be just within the level of tolerance of the computer, then no error code will be generated, but the long term adaptive antipolution strategy might nevertheless be upset enough to unwittingly increase the cold idle rpms above a safe limit. For this reason I have to blame in part the engine software for not being more intelligent in monitoring when there is an instability occuring due to a slight mechanical defect in the engine. The problem is that the computer normally communicates using the OBD-II protocol and this protocol does not include a provision for such an instability. Engine software is assumed to be bug free.
I am providing the following link to one of the forum threads I set up elsewhere. You can listen to a MP3 audio recording of the engine during its unstable state and then judge for yourself if this issue applies to you. You can also link to similar threads at other forums where a comment can be posted or a vote can be cast for the vehicle (Matrix/Vibe/Corolla) which concerns you.
link title
To hear the recording, you have to re-link to the Vibe forum where the recording is hosted.
I look forward to reading any comments posted in this thread or elsewhere.
Lastly, it surprises me that this issue has remained so invisible to organizations like the AAA and the like who would want to flag this issue as part of their reviews of second hand Matrix/Vibe/Corolla cars.
And even more surprising is that Toyota appears to be in no hurry to get to the bottom of this. I would have expected their engineers to have strapped a monitor on my car's computer so that they could gather all the data available in order to ensure that this problem is not carried into their next generation of engines.
I do not remember if a 4WD Matrix has the possibility of a manual transmission or if only automatics are available. If your Matrix had an automatic transmission, then my problem would not have happened on your car. In order for the surging to occur, the motor must be completely de coupled from the transmission by either depressing the clutch or putting the manual transmission in neutral.
Placing an automatic transmission in neutral still allows the cold torque converter to slightly load the engine enough to slow it down to the point where the rpm's are not high enough for the instability to occur.
Yes, I am probably the only Matrix owner in this forum with this problem. As I wrote in the first post, there are 19 other identical cases logged in 5 other forums. I created a thread here in case someone logs into this site and searches using key words like "surging" or "hunting".
I recently wrote to a journalist who publishes a weekly column in my local newspaper on automobile problems. I asked him what I should be asking Toyota in writing on the first anniversary following their written promise to investigate my issue as soon as possible. With a full year and winter having come and gone, I was wondering on behalf of the other 19 owners if Toyota was really serious about investing time and energy in searching for a solution.
The journalist has read my e-mail letter to him but has not corresponded with me. I am hopeful he will get involved by making a suggestion and publishing any follow-ups, but if he doesn't participate, it may be because he sees my issue more as a legal problem and he might prefer that I write the same letter to the journalist who is a lawyer and writes about the legalities that affect car owners.
I am otherwise happy with my Matrix but when I compare it to my previous Corolla wagon which gave me 8 years of problem free driving, I am a bit suspicious about the quality of Toyota cars which come off North American assembly lines versus the Japanese line that my Corolla wagon came off of. I need another 3 years to render a fair judgment.
Thanks
Patrick
(Montreal)
I have alot of trust in my mechanic who conducted a wild goose chase, only to conclude that the problem was beyond them. Reportedly, neither Toyota nor Pontiac would acknowledge any reports of such problems.
I bought this car specifically because of the positive experiences I have had with Toyota products in the past ('04 pickup from same NUMI plant is still going strong). Although this car has a Pontiac nameplate, I feel very let down by Toyota and disinclined to give them the same unconditional faith that I have in the past. I wouldn't have expected great thing from a Pontiac product, but a Toyota?
Patrick
Thanks very much for your help
Anyway, I'm posting because although I absolutely love the car, I encountered something odd around 30k miles: a strange rattle-like sound started coming from the top of the passenger side of the motor. Now, being from a family of mechanics and having built numerous American muscle cars in the past, I knew that a knock was serious bad news. It seemed to happen most when the engine was *almost* fully warmed up, but not so much when cold or warm. It honestly sounds a little like somebody is shaking a spraypaint can under the hood.
I took it to two different dealerships; one said they couldn't hear it (in his defense, it was a lot quieter at that particular time) and the other dealership said that the only thing they can figure is that it's the tensioner (which is around that area anyway).
I now have over 110k miles on the car, and *I drive this thing hard* - like it was a Subaru WRX STI. The noise has not gotten any worse or any less since its inception (though sometimes it varies a little without reason) - but I have grown accustomed to using higher octane fuel in an attempt to combat the problem.
Does this sound familiar to anybody out there? One time it was so prevalent that my father-in-law walked past his driveway and asked what was wrong with my car...
Ideas?
EDIT: I have done all maintenance myself - every 5k miles like clockwork. I have replaced the plugs recently and I am still using 5w-30 Castrol GTX or Valvoline at every oil change. I installed headers onto the car around 75k miles, but they didn't affect the noise at all.
is this normal?
is there any sort of "fix" for it?
thanks in advance for any/all help....
tm
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
thanks for the insights!
get this checked out.
Quick stats: 6-speed manual XRS, TRD intake, bought July of 2002, drive it hard but not insane.
Today I noticed when I pressed the gas in, mostly in 6th gear, the RPMs would rev higher but then it would seemingly catch and be grabbed back down at a higher RPM and then speed the car up. The same idea as a bike chain skipping a few teeth and then eventually grabbing ahold of one and pulling the bike along as normal. It just started and I do not want to let it get bad incase the situation can be remedied and prevent any other damage to the car's motor. I see many people have been having transmission problems with theirs but I am not sure if a manual has a transmission being that I know little about cars.
I can see Toyota telling me that this is no way covered under warranty being that it is the clutch unless others have had the same problem. Are clutch and transmission the same thing? I will start my search for incriminating evidence to show them
Insanity in a sporty car with a high-revving engine like this one, BTW, can reduce clutch life to 20-40K miles....
Oh, and yes, what you have there are the classic symptoms of a clutch just beginning to go. Replace it before the car becomes unsafe to drive...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Thank you
I'd check any fusible links the car would have. I don't have schematics for the Matrix, but fusible links are like the main breaker for the house. They are a hunk of thick wire, sized to carry a lot of current, and will blow at ratings like 100 or 120ish amps. There usually always up in the engine compartment, within reasonalbe physical proximity to the battery. Could be near or in the first fuse box.
How do you think it compares to a Mazda 3 - 5 door?
Thanks, Rod.
Matrix has the edge on fuel economy with the 1.8, also on interior space, especially passenger space in the rear.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Steve
Thanks Jacob
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
i think i finally have an answer for you on low speed surging. If it is what i think it is... it is a no brainer! It is most likely the air conditioning pump, weather the AC is on or off the pump is still working to keep the juices moving and at low idle speeds it puts a little load on the motor and the cpu kicks up the idle to compensate for it. I know it is frustrating that it does this, but it just the way the motor is made. There is nothing wrong with it.
Thanks Sharkbait3
There is an AC compressor. The compressor is run by the accessory drive belt. The pulley of the compressor is always turning but the compressor is only operating when the electrically-operated clutch is engaged. The clutch is engaged when the system is calling for cooling either in the AC-mode or often in the defrost mode when the outside temperature is above freezing.
I am new here but have been suffering with this idle / rpm revving / surging issue with our 2006 Matrix Xr (21,000 on the od) for awhile now. So far this has been replaced (warranty repair):
Repair attempt 1:
-CMSHAFT TM – GEAR OR SPRKT
-GEAR ASSY
-GASKET, CYLINDER HEAD
-RING
Repair attempt 2:
-FUEL TANK SUBASSEMBLY
-CHARCOAL CANNISTER
-ENGINE CONTROL MODULE
Now, in-between these two repair attempts we have been to the dealer to complain about the issue numerous times but got the standard “Technician drove the vehicle but unable to duplicate condition at this time”. The latest repair attempt was a result of the car demonstrating the revving while the car was idling in the service bay as we were paying for a diagnostic test that showed nothing.
Here is the kicker, we just picked up the car from the second repair attempt and on the receipt is this statement “RELACED ECM MAY HAVE ADDITONAL PROBLEMS NOT FOUND AT THIS TIME. TEST DROVE, RUNS OKAY AT THIS TIME”
We are feed up.
With no light I would have suspected the ECM, or its firmware, first.
Does it do this at random times, or as the engine warms up?
This car would have to do a lot more than bounce the idle before I'd think bad head gasket.