Jeep Wrangler

nolid5 · June 2003

Hey Pete, Great pics in the gallery. What kind of side bars are those?

nolid5 · June 2003

That sounds like fraud. Check all your paperwork and like Tom says make sure the VIN matches. That build sheet link that Tom provided is great and they do get back to you quickly.

Rich

div2 · June 2003

I guess I'm missing something here; are you saying that you didn't have the opportunity to read the Monroney sticker AND inspect the Jeep prior to signing the contract? I'm still somewhat of a neophyte when it comes to Wranglers, but even I can tell the difference between a half door and a steel door. In any event, the measure of damages-assuming you didn't sign some sort of a waiver while closing the deal-would be the difference in value between the vehicle bargained for and the vehicle actually received. Since the full door option costs $125, that is what you'd be entitled to. This all assumes you bought a NEW Jeep. If you bought your TJ used your slight chance of recovering a few dollars is reduced to zero. I'm not saying that the dealer didn't pull a fast one, but it seems to me that you had more than an ample opportunity to discover the problem prior to closing the deal. It's a bit late to start "double checking" the paperwork and the vehicle after you've bought it and driven it home.

davids1 · June 2003

If the dealer "fraudulently" sold a vehicle, be it new or used, then they are "fraudulent", period.

stever · June 2003

if what they did was legal or not. I just suggested talking to consumer affairs - those folks should know.

Steve, Host

scmhockey · June 2003

As with all big purchases, there is the three day recision opportunity for buyers who have second thoughts. Is it past that time?

stever · June 2003

There's no automatic 3 day right of return provision for buying cars (or most anything).

There is such a rule for door-to-door and "off-premise" sales, so if you spring for a vacuum cleaner from someone who shows up unannounced at your front stoop, you can change your mind on that.

Myths of the Marketplace

Lots of dealers at weekend auto sales at fairgrounds/mall lots make you close at the store for this reason.

Steve, Host

scmhockey · June 2003

It was just a thought. I guess it was re-financing my house that I was thinking of.

div2 · June 2003

I'm sure your grasp of legal issues is superior to mine, but I thought the concept of fraud involved some element of deception. How could src48084 have been deceived when the discrepancy-the type of DOORS, for crying out loud-was obvious upon even a cursory inspection. It's not like they swapped a Dana 44 for a 35. It's interesting src48084 didn't notice or care about the doors until he got around to reading what he signed; it could be buyer's remorse looking for an "out".

surfer454 · June 2003

I got my new Sahara today!!! I went with my wife to pick it up and now SHE is cruising while I work. I watched the video last night on how to remove the HT and install the ST. Hopefully I could do that tonight after work.

I guess my wife was expecting a pretty crude ride. She called me after a few hours telling me how much she loves it!

I'd love to get some pictures up, but my ISP doesn't provide web space for me.

Now it is after market time - racks, seat covers, mirrors....

surfer454 · June 2003

Sorry to hear about your troubles. As you can see from my previous posts, my experience at a 5 star dealer was less than stellar. Hang in there. I hope things work out for you.

Reading these posts about the rear swap kinda concerns me now. My vehicle is supposed to come with the 44 - in fact I have 4 way disc, so I'm hoping they could swap out the 44.

davids1 · June 2003

It's not obvious, if done in a fraudulent manner.

For example, was the vehicle presented as new with all the items indicated on the retail sticker. If the vehicle had the doors swapped, different wheels, carpet removed, and that fact was not disclosed to the buyer, although these items are in plain view, then the dealer is fraudulent.

Should the buyer be more vigilant. Sure. Lack of vigilance on the buyers part is not a crime though.

bamatazz · June 2003

CONGRATS man...
Love that BLACK jeep.
Tazz is black..my fav color of a car to me.
LOOKS awesome when clean.
Did u know, only the PEFECT cars are painted black, every other color shows every blemish
( friend from mercedes told me that)
so keep the JEEP lookin CLEAN!!

BAMA

tsjay · June 2003

Not with you on swapping out the 44?? The Dana 44 is the more desirable differential: it is heavier duty than is the Dana 35. Maybe you are saying you are afraid you DIDN'T get the Dana 44???

It's easy to tell the difference. Crawl under and see if your fill pug for the differential oil is made of rubber, or if it is a threaded metal plug. If it is metal, then you have a Dana 44.

Also, the Dana 44 is not symmetrical along the vertical axis. The left side (driver)is larger than the right side. The shape is similar to a pear laid on its side, with the big end toward the left. The Dana 35 is more pumpkin shaped.

As far as posting pics of that baby, go to Gill's web site and post them in his gallery. He doesn't charge anything for this service. Gill allows you to link your pics that you have in his gallery, so you could post them here in Jeep Owners Photo Gallery via link to Gill's.

Once again, CONGRATS, Bill!

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

div2 · June 2003

So I suppose that if the Monroney stated that the vehicle color was white and the color was actually Black, then that would be "fraudulent" as well? Wow. And just what does this mean:"It's not obvious, if done in a fraudulent manner." You're killing me!!! One more thing; just exactly where did you get your J.D.?

src48084 · June 2003

Well, obviously, I did something right. I got a call from the Manager of Manhattan Chrysler Jeep telling me he wouldn't give me full metal doors but he would let me return the vehicle. I got a full refund. Thanks everyone for your help and advice.

stever · June 2003

I'm thinking that he couldn't give you the doors because they were sold to someone else? Did they offer to find you another Jeep with the doors or is one of those "don't grace our door again" situations?

Back to shopping?

Steve, Host

mtngal · June 2003

My Wrangler is black, but it is rarely clean. It still looks really nice, even dusty and dirty. Glad you worked something out with it.

src48084 - Now that you have a full refund, head on over to another dealer and look at more Wranglers (with an important lesson learned).

Question - back in '98 when I was buying my Wrangler, one of the dealers I went to said that they would take a hard top from a Sahara they had and put it on a Sport I was looking at. They gave me the impression that they did it all the time. Is there anything wrong with the dealer taking the Sahara, changing the price to reflect the soft top rather than the hard top and still selling it as a new vehicle? (By the way, I did NOT buy that Sport - I knew it wouldn't come wired for the wiper/defroster).

hr0d316 · June 2003

what are the major differences in all the diff types of jeep wranglers? From x to sahara, etc.

tsjay · June 2003

The Jeeps start with the entry model, the SE. These have the four cylinder engine, with no option for the six cylinder engine. They also have only the Dana 35 rear ends, which are not as strong as the Dana 44's, and no option to get a Dana 44. They are geared at 4.11:1 for higher RPMs that the four cylinder engine needs to develop power.

These are good Jeeps for folks that don't do a lot of highway driving, since the four cylinder engine doesn't get the job done for highway driving, especially in headwinds or on long hills. They are fine around town and on the trails, if you are going to off road.

The next level is the "X" model, which gets you the 4.0 L inline six engine, but doesn't give you the option of the Dana 44 rear end.

Next is the Sport model, which comes with the 4.0 L inline six and has the option for getting the Dana 44 rear end. The Dana 35 is standard on the Sports, but the Dana 44 is an available option, which, in my opinion, is a good thing to have.

The next level is the Sahara, and, if I'm not mistaken, the only differences are cosmetic (different seats and color-matched, wider fender flares) compared to the sport. I guess some things that are optional on the Sport are standard on the Sahara. I never seriously considered the Sahara, so I don't know all the details concerning how they differ from the Sports.

The ultimate Wrangler is the Rubicon. These are for people that are going to be doing some serious off roading. They come from the factory with 31" Goodyear MT/R tires (mud tires). They have a 4:1 transfer case gear ratio in low range, which gives you much slower crawl speed than the standard transfer case, which has a 2.72:1 gear ratio in low range. They also have selectable lockers in the front and rear differentials. They are a great bargain for people who would modify their Jeeps to a similar configuration anyway with after market stuff. If a person bought a Sport and added these features, he would spend much more money than he would if he just bought a Rubicon to start with.

Hope this helps, but you should go to www.jeep.com to learn more details.

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

surfer454 · June 2003

Hey Tom -
It appears to be the 44 since it has the threaded metal screw. After reading some of these posts I wanted to make sure no one did a swap-a-roo on the rear. I had to run out and check (even though it is dark).

Gonna wait on taking off the top - expecting rain tomorrow.

tsjay · June 2003

Good deal, dude! That might be real important to ya some day, if you want some bigger tires, and if you want to go off roading. The Dana 44s hold up much better.

Did ya see my post about gill's web site hosting your pics? I just gotta see that black beauty!

Oh, yeah, on the top... they say it really ain't a good idea to run too long with both tops installed. I'm sure a day or two won't matter, but I wouldn't wait too long.

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

leafchild · June 2003

I installed the Manik front end bar (grille guard) for the factory bumper on my 2003 Sahara a while back. When I installed it, I noticed that the factory fog lamps and the top brackets of the front end bar couldn't fit together without rubbing on each other. (Which made me worry that the plastic casing of the lamps will eventually crack.) If I mount the fog lamp on the top bracket's 'hole for lights', the lamp won't fit unless tilted upwards, which would not be good for oncoming traffic. I called the manufacturer, and they sent me these extension brackets, which make me install the lights in a way it sticks up way in front of the vehicle, in front of even the bumper extension, so should I hit/scrape anything, the fog lamps would be the first thing to catch.

Anybody else have this problem? If so, are you pointing the fog lamps funny, or are you running with the fog lamps for bumper extensions, or did you rig up something else?

I think I am getting ready to rig up something else, but curious to see if anybody had any experiences/ideas.

Thanks

jacknimble · June 2003

Hey guys, long time no post!

Right after buying my 2001 Sahara, I installed power windows, door locks, and remote entry. I've had a couple of people that after seeing the work, asked if I would install them in their Jeeps. I was wondering if you guys could give me input on this, such as do these things interest you, would this make a nice factory option, how much would you pay, etc.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Also, has anyone experienced downshift problems with the automatic when cold?

redkey1 · June 2003

How much did it cost you to do?

larry18 · June 2003

My bumpers are finally here and installed! Took less than an hour to install both front and rear bumpers. Had the help of a mechanic so that cut the time considerably. Will try to get some pics posted in the near future.

01r1 · June 2003

nolid5- These side bars:

From Turbo City, called Rock-it Sidebars. Here's a link:
http://www.turbocity.com/JeepBumpers.htm

-Pete

bored · June 2003

I'm no big fan of power windows. Although a good feature, especially for the handicapped, they are not reliable at all. I don't really know of a car that has power windows, and has not been in the service department for some type of repair for them going up, or down, terribly slow, or not working at all.

Power Locks are a different story. That is one feature that I actually like. Of course, I don't mind bending over to unlock the doors for others, but in a 4-Door car/suv... it's not very comfortable. Occasionally, I wouldn't mind doing that, but daily... no...

Keyless entry is the only reason why I would even want Power Locks. It's nice to have the doors unlocked before you get in. :-) Of course, once again, I don't mind turning a key.

Nice features, but all of them are unnecessary, in my opinion. Depends on the person.

Now, factory options on the Jeep... well, I don't really care, but I would only buy one with the locks, and not the windows.

jacknimble · June 2003

It cost about $350, and took about 6 hours to install both of them. The power windows are made specifically for the wrangler and are first rate in quality and fit. The power door locks was a universal fit, so it took some ingenuity to hook up the locks, especially with the tailgate. I've installed them so the doors are still removeable.

jacknimble · June 2003

Good points all, although I have only had problems with power windows once out of the 6 or so cars I've owned with them. I don't expect to have trouble with these either, but if I do, they have a lifetime warranty.

surfer454 · June 2003

Well 254 miles and the idiot light came on. I hope this is not a sign of things to come. The cat converter is bad - new one is on order

The mechanic said it is OK to drive.

I haven't even got the top off yet - but that will change this weekend - rain or shine.

twylie · June 2003

sorry to hear that you have a problem. I'm suprised the cat is bad, being new. I would have suspected a bad O2 sensor or some other type of sensor. Let us know how it turns out.

-twylie

redkey1 · June 2003

Make sure your gas cap is on right, this can trigger the light. It takes a few starts after tightening it to get it to turn off.

bcmalibu99ls · June 2003

According to the Canadian Guide to Lemon Cars, which I briefly read yesterday at a local book store, the quality control at the factory which makes TJs is, direct quote, "atrocious." Crying, crying shame :-(

mac24 · June 2003

That's sad indeed. However, do they quantify what "atrocious" means, and do they reference where they get their information. I tried to check it out myself, but couldn't find anything at all on Google for the "Canadian Guide to Lemon Cars".

stever · June 2003

There are several stories out this week about North American car factory productivity - more efficient factories generally means better quality:

Chrysler productivity gain highest (South Bend Tribune)

Steve, Host

bamatazz · June 2003

I hit 19,800 miles my "idiot" light came on today. Taking it in tomorrow to get check out, It was time to get TAZZ all seviced anyway. I will just do it all at one time. Great reading all the post keep it going. U guys have more to say than I do, epecially TOM.. just kidding MAN, wouldnt be our jeep board without you.

KEEP JEEPIN
BAMA

redkey1 · June 2003

My faults so far:

paint chipping off door handles
faded fender flares
paint chipping on tailgate
rusting on door hinges

While the engines are bulletproof....the bodies / paint are shabby.

guy21 · June 2003

I now have 800 miles on the replacement transmission, 2,000 total on the vehicle, and thought I would post an update.

On June 3, I took it back to the dealer who installed the replacement trans and stated that it was hard to shift and grinding between gears the way the first one did before it failed. The dealer had their mechanic drive the vehicle, but refused to write it up on a repair order. This was my 3rd repair visit on the trans problem.

I am investigating filing a complaint against the dealer as my state's DMV has told me that I am entitled to one for the June 3 visit.

I would suggest caution to anyone considering the 2003 2.4L with the 5-speed. Although the engine seems great and gas mileage is up in the 23 mpg range.

tsjay · June 2003

I was in this message board for probably six months before I actually got Thelma Jane, and I have now had her two and a half years. I think I have seem more posts about problems with new Jeeps in the last month or two than I had seen in the previous 34 months!

Don't get me wrong you guys... if you have a problem, then you SHOULD post about it, but it is depressing to hear of so many problems in such a short period of time.

Has the Jeep quality suffered that much since I bought Thelma Jane? I had a couple minor problems that were efficiently corrected under warranty, but some of you guys are having serious problems.

Oh well, I can only say that Thelma Jane is doing fine, and she now has 32,000 miles on her. I am still IN LOVE! She is so much fun that I can't even find the words to describe what a joy it is to have her.

Hope everyone's problems get taken care of soon. Owning a Jeep should be nothing but pure joy!

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

twylie · June 2003

Figured it might be a good time to repost the problems I've had with my '01 Sport. I've had it almost 27 months to the day, just over 14k miles.

Factory defects:
Issue - 2 small paint blemishes in the passengers door (debris under surface coat).
Resolution - dealer noted and offered to repaint or deal with it if it ever breaks through the finish coat. I elected the latter option.

Issue - terrible mis-stiching inside on the drivers upper door (I have half doors).
Resolution - dealer said it was cosmetic and couldn't do much unless it leaked. Hasn't leaked yet, so I didn't push the issue but had them log the item as a service visit should the stitching ever give out.

Since we got it:
Issue - intermitant "won't start".
Resolution - 2 visits to the dealer and could not reproduce. When it did it the next time at the house, I had my wife turn the ignition to Start while I crawled under and tapped the starter with a rubber mallet. Jeep immediately cranked and dealer replaced starter no questions asked. No problems since.

That's it for me; two items that could be chalked up to weak quality control and one bad part.

Given how I've used the Jeep and the places it's taken me off road, I'm pretty pleased with how it's held up. Very surprised that it doesn't squeak or rattle given the off-roading trips.

Happier with the Jeep than I could have imagined.

-twylie

tsjay · June 2003

terrible! About 80% of the posts in there were about problems. I had a 99 JGC that had the famous brake rotor problem, and there were sure lots of posts about that. They had to be turned twice in front and were replaced the next time they warped. The replacement rotors needed to be turned when I traded in the vehicle at approximately 31 K miles! Had power window motors go out, and the heater control module had to be replaced. I really like the vehicle, despite the problems.

I didn't mean to ramble on about my JGC, but the point is, there were just too many posts about problems, and it was a very negative place. I hope we aren't heading that direction here, but I know you guys are having problems, and they need to be posted for everyone's benefit. I guess what I'm saying is that I hope this recent rash of problems is not really typical for new Jeep Wranglers.

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

div2 · June 2003

I bought my TJ used with about 49K on the clock. In the past 12 months of ownership I've put over 15K on it. Aside from a set of front pads the only problems I've encountered were the dead IP cluster and A/C evaporator condensation draining into the front passenger floorboard. Both problems are covered by TSBs and I repaired them myself at a cost of @$4 and one hour of easy labor. The paint and trim still looks brand new(hint: try Mother's Back to Black on faded plastic or vinyl trim). The only rust is on the receiver hitch, and a little wire brushing and paint will have it looking new in short order. I'm very pleased overall.

bcmalibu99ls · June 2003

Sorry, I did not give the correct book title. It's called: "Phil Edmonston's Lemon-Aid Car Guides," and some of the info is here

http://www.lemonaidcars.com

The funny thing is that on the site you can see that 97-00 TJs are ranked "above average," while 01-02 TJs are "average," meaning the quality went down the last two model years. Perhaps, the quality control is not what it used to be (perhaps due to cost cutting???), and maybe that is why Phil called it "atrocious" in his 2003 book.

BTW, 2002 Liberty is NOT recommended by Phil, and that category is even lower than "below average"

Grand Cherokee (95-02) is ranked as "average," but the perennial competitor 4Runner (96-02) is in the "recommended" category, to which only 10 vehicles (all of them Japanese) belong, so DC has some catching up to do

kelleyo · June 2003

right?

CPS goes out so I take it in. Then it gets broken into while at the dealership. Broken window, stolen stereo, broken glove compart and center console.

All fixed after a 2 week wait.

2 days after I get him home dead battery. I decided to buy a new one since the original one is 4 years old. So far it has held a charge. I was originally afraid that the stereo guys had screwed up and something was causing a drain on the battery.

Now this:
Put key in door and unlock and it will not open. Have to crawl over from passenger side. Lock mechanism feels screwed up. Had to be something not put back together properly when they replaced the broken window in the door.

Then the FINAL INSULT:
The driver side seatbelt will not go into the latch/receptacle/buckle! Either glass got into the buckle or something else has now broken.

Needless to say I am exasperated.

Other issues I have had with this car include the broken exhaust manifold.

kelleyo · June 2003

This site is very cool: http://www.film.queensu.ca/cj3b/Index.html

mtngal · June 2003

I feel for you. I wonder about some of the folks that fix cars that have been damaged for some reason. My Wrangler was in an accident about 6 months after we got it in '98 and while all of the body and the little front end work they did has held up very well, they gave me the rims with the wrong offset and they rub whenever they are on the front. It took me forever to finally figure that out!

Sounds like another trip to the dealer - at least the dealer seems to be willing to make it right.

div2 · June 2003

It's bad enough to be ripped off, but the repair hassle that follows is often worse. BTDT; I had some pretty decent box speakers stolen out of my Arrow 2.6 GT in college. A friend of mine(ex-Marine) wanted to buy another set, fill them with blasting caps, and use a fuse that would trigger when the speaker was hooked up to an amp. Then after you get ripped off you simply wait to hear the news story about the big explosion at the crack-house. Well, it was a nice idea, anyway...

bamatazz · June 2003

Took tazz in to get checked for my "idiot" light. It was from the Gas cap..but, the dealer said the 'puter checks for gas cap at diffrent time. I have the bad habit of leaving my switch "on" when filling up with gas. So. sometimes thats when the puter checks for gas cap. It thinks its not there..so. light comes on.
  Glad it wasnt anything serious, like u other guys are having. Im stil VERY pleased with TAZZ.
no comlpaints from me at all.
  I wish u guys luck, and keep us posted.

KEEP JEEPIN'
   BAMA

brimcrow · June 2003

Seems I ready that the Jeep Rubicon has a 4-speed automatic. Will all Jeep Wrangers get this option?

Thanks,

brimcrow

Jeep Wrangler

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