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I had a 409 once...a '65 Impala wagon with 409/340 and Powerglide. About as inspiring as it sounds. Was going to combine it with a '65 SS convertible 4-speed with tired 327, but ran out of money.
My understanding is that the "W" engine was never intended for passenger-car production--it was designed in the mid-'50s for large trucks. That would explain why they had to work so hard to get power out of it. The cams were so radical they'd wear out the valve springs.
Now, I did grow up in a Chevy town. Fords and Mopars were for hicks. I did watch one night though a stop light race between a 409 and a 406 Ford (remember those?) Much to our surprise, the Ford won!
LOTS of cops too!
I just got back from the Volo Car Museum in Volo, IL. It's a first rate museum that was having an auction (Kruse) this weekend. Anyhow, I walked around the museum and saw my first 426 Hemi engine. Man, did it take up space in the engine compartment! The car was a brown Dodge Coronet. It was a "sleeper". If you didn't notice the HEMI badges on the front and rear panels, you could get "suckered" at a light. However, it said on the description sign on the dash that it "could rattle dishes in the house, or wake the dead". I also saw the hemi's arch-enemy across the aisle. It was a Chevelle SS, with the 454-450hp engine.
And...the 426 Hemi was no slouch! Saw a guy in a GTO one night in San Pedro try to take on a 426 Dodge at a stop light. The Dodge made the GTO look like a Cushman Scooter!
Yes, most of those engines responded to basic tuning tricks. In fact, I've read that many of the "bone stock" cars tested back in the '60s were massaged by factory in-house tuners, including Pontiacs with the Royal Bobcat treatment. Supposedly Jim Wangers ordered this after an early roadtest of a base engine GTO convertible with 2-speed AT made the entire line-up seem like slugs. (I guess the bogus Car & Driver roadtest took care of that; 0-60 in 4.6 seconds!) The fact that the hemi was a little over the top gave the MoPar line-up a hardcore performance that survives to this day, a little like the Viper halo effect. Some of the other factory hi-perf packages, like the W-30, Stage 1, 428 SCJ and Ram Air GTOs, were very strong on the street, and maybe easier to live with, but they didn't have the King Kong hemi image.
Many of the serious racers I saw at the strip were running MoPars, and not because of the image; they left me at the line and pulled away from me all the way down the strip. On the other hand, I will say that my HO and Ram Air GTOs could hold their own with a stock MoPar bigblock raced by an enthusiastic amateur (like me).
The Roadrunner kind of knocked the GTO off its throne, at least in my area, and I think one reason was the image the hemi gave to the MoPar intermediate lineup. The other was that a 383 Roadrunner was very fast for less money than a Goat.
I owned what was supposed to be the answer to the 'runner, a Judge. The Judge was originally developed as a budget musclecar but ended up as a more expensive GTO. But a great marketing idea, as the hundreds of fake Judges shows. Mine was a Ram Air III with "bang-shift" turbo, a very quick car that also handled surprisingly well.
But my favorite was a '67 HO, no power options and quick-ratio manual steering. It had a few rough edges--like instant-fade brakes--but at least it made you pay attention.
The other '67 I owned was at the opposite end of the spectrum, an automatic base engine car that was a smooth, elegant cruiser, sort of a smaller Grand Prix. It ran great at 180k unrebuilt miles, another GTO attribute: they were mechanically rugged.
The '66 I had really didn't move me, maybe because of the 2-speed AT. Not a slug, but not as much personality either.
Well, that was a nice stroll down memory lane.
Muscle car Reveiw just listed their choices for the top ten Quickest muscle cars in a new issue,the 427 Cobra was first,the 427 Corvette was second,and maybe a little surprising to some the 440 six barrel(only Dodges are six packs)Road runner was third.The highest Hemi on the list was a Hemicuda in fifth or sixth.Interestingly though the Hemicuda had 3.54 gears,everything above it had 4.10's or deeper.The Cuda ran a measly 13.10 in the quarter the 'Bird'ran a 12.90,pretty nasty on skinny little bias ply street tires,and that is why I can't accept the theory that we have come a long way in V8 developement,not when you compare the strides made in computers,motorcycles,and many other products in much less than thirty years.
Although I like the old musclecars better than the new performance cars, I do think we need to take road-tests with a grain of salt. The classic example is the first GTO test in Car & Driver. Even David E. admits the numbers are bogus, but it did a lot to establish the GTO's image. Let's just say that they were all very fast, and a lot of fun.
side note...That Sun distributor machine could deliver a shock that would damm near stop your heart if you touched the wrong area! Been there!
Regarding dyno tuning, just installing a Mr. Gasket curve kit in the distributor could do wonders for throttle response. Limit the amount of mechanical advance, disconnect the vacuum advance and crank in as much initial advance as the engine could tolerate. Good stuff.
We used to complain about paying 38.9 cents a gallon for chevron supreme. The "white pump" stuff. It was something like 104 octane!
The hot cars loved that stuff!
I remember reading about Sunoco 260 in the car mags of the time. I recall the octane rating being similar to the name, so it might have been 106 octane, although that could be off.
Later cylinder head designs can handle more combustion pressure before they detonate, even with the same compression ratio. Didn't the last F-body small-blocks have 10+:1 CR? Of course, they had knock sensors and computer-controlled advance. I wonder how much of that stuff could be adapted to an older car.
Re: the BMW M5, yeah that's one sweet car. Low 13's in a roomy 4 door, with nice handling too. Wish I had 80 thousand bucks to throw around.
I'm not that crazy about the Chevy 302 either. It made a lot of hp at the high end, but 99% of driving is done with low end torque. I had an interesting race with one once. I was in my 5 liter mustang and came alongside a beautiful '69 Z-28 at a light. It was out in the middle of nowhere, with 3 lanes to ourselves. We both revved up, and at the green, took off. Having the torque-ier motor, I pulled at least 2 car lengths on him by the middle of 2nd gear. Then I noticed he wasn't falling back anymore. Knowing the high rpm capabilities of his 302, I knew what would happen, and there was nothing I could do about it--he blew by me. I never had so much fun losing a race as I did that one.
1. Semi agree, from what I've read it was tempermental on the street and the wedges of the same size some times were faster. Also like the SOHC Ford Hemi and Boss 429 Hemi in this class of motor.
2) No way! Good fun motor but with the different crank sizes no 4 bolt main availability and rarity of a steel crank I'd put the 350 based motors way ahead of their smaller relatives because of the stronger blocks bigger con rod bolts and waaaaay more availability of factory hi-perf parts, mostly cranks and rods. (BTW I'm not a Chevy man but the 350 has stood the test of time and proven itself.)
I've fought for the FE before and while I think it an old design that was pretty stout with its deep skirt block (Which Ford and Chevy have re-incorporated into their latest motors!!!) it had its ups and downs. Just remember what American motor won the 24 hours of Le Mans for the first time. Yes there were dog meat FE's but there were also 145 horsepower 350 chevys!!!!
I've got way more opinions on your list but I'll stop hogging and let others comment.
Thanks for rekindling the topic!
If I got of ok,AND if the trans shifted at the right RPM(about 50% of the time),it was almost a toss up,I was better at cutting lights,but I had to drive it so carefully,he usually beat me by two car lengths pulling away if I messed up the launch.I put some big tires on it once,and it did hook up and run 14.30's,not bad for a 2.41 rear end(posi yet!)
That Belvedere had a Posi Dana 60 with 4.10's,and some pretty big tires for the time period.It was a soso launcher when he bought it,but it always flew at the top end.After he got the better springs and pinion snubber,it hooked pretty decent on the street tires,and would pull the front end with slicks.It ran mid to low 11's at Milan Dragway.It was pretty mild,cam wise.
The mighty hemi died one night,he was street racing a guy in a Chevelle,don't know what size engine.The 'Dere was killing him,and then one of the less than two week old intake valves broke off,due to a factory flaw,and dropped into the cylinder.The head was trashed,but the main damage was it somehow broke the rod off at the pin,and seized up the engine.BTW,it had a 4 speed at this time,and when the engine siezed up,the front u joint broke,and the car pole vaulted on the shaft.There was a huge hole in the floor.Other than being scared my friend only had a bruise on his back from something hitting him,but we never figured out what the hell it was!
About a year later,it was back looking new,with a rebuilt motor,and 727 trans,with the pushbuttons.I wanted to buy that car so bad,my dad said I was "nuts".
As far as the 350's go,that line was supposed to read 327/350,but I missed it.
The Fe powered cars ran ok,but just not as good as the GM/Chrysler cars for the most part.A friend had several of them spin bearings due to assembly defects(Ford admitted it!).One lasted a whole week,the replacement for one that lasted only about four months!The FOURTH engine lasted almost 200K though.But the dealer checked it really carefully,and fixed some problem with the oil system that would have killed that one too.Something about an oil passage being open that shoud be partially plugged?
I knew a clown in High School,Joe,he was a real doofus,and someone sold him a 428 CJ Mustang that,well,it just didn't run right,it shook.It was a real CJ,it was a real 428,it was messed up.He spent a bunch of money on it,did a total tune up,but never a compression check.Fianlly,a friend of his did one,and one cylinder had NO compression,nothing.Hey Joe,was the spark plug on that cylinder really,really clean?Uhhh,yeah.Uh oh!
He pulls the valve cover off,and there are no rockers on that hole!!They ended up pulling the heads,and there was a wooden plug in the hole!the crank was messed up too.The bad cylinder was scored up pretty bad too.
Joe sold the car to some guy who was really hot for it,and actually got more than he paid for it!A few weeks later,it was back on the street,running great.
I might leave the mopar 340 off a best of list, too, for the same reasons you mention. It just didn't get marketed by Chrysler the way the Hemi and 440 did. It was certainly a good performer, though, and made a mark in racing when Chrysler wanted it to. It was a winner in Prostock in the late '70s. And in Stock class racing, a 340 Dart raced in E or F/stock, just one class slower than the 428CJ Mustangs in D or E/stock.
Are we talking the same prostock? Glidden pretty much owned that with Fords during the 70's and some of the 80's and I don't believe there were any Chrysler small blocks in pro stock. Glidden ran Chrysler one year. don't remember how he did though.
Back to NRD's list. Pontiac and Buick 455's. Nah!!!!! No history. I would agree with some of the Buick turbo V6's in the 80's though.