What is this thing worth?

Mr_Shiftright · May 2008

As long as you lift UP on the lever with your palm pointed to the sky, and you are between 9 o'clock and 12 o'clock, turning clockwise, you are fine. NEVER crank past 12 o'clock so that your arm is thrusting down toward the ground. If the engine backfires, and you are at 9 o;clock, it will merely push your hand downward; but if you are pushing DOWN on the lever say at 3 o'clock, it can hurt you.

Probably a Model A has such low compression that it wouldn't break anything, but it might sprain you. Cranking a big 6 would be riskier.

I used to crank engines on airplanes in Alaska. That was fun, as you had both backfire and a guillotine to worry about. Prop starting was even more fun, but up there, a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do, as John Wayne would say.

Another fun experience is kick starting a 441 BSA Lightning motorcycle. That's a one cylinder bike. So it's like cranking a 3.0 V-6. Fortunately they provide a compression release lever.

isellhondas · May 2008

So, would a Model A truck have an even lower rear end ratio than the cars did? I'll bet they did but I don't know.

All of this has me looking on ebay. Quite a few of them there and not that inexpensive. There was a nice sedan I liked until I read it had been Mickey Moused up with a Pinto engine!

Not one of those dumb Shay replicas either!

Mr_Shiftright · May 2008

You should look at hemmings.com. Prices are more real world. I bet most of the Ebay auctions do not meet reserve.

Besides half the fun of a Model A is fixing it up.

explorerx4 · May 2008

my '91 mustang is not old enough for hagerty/grundy to insure it.
it is a gt convertible, looks new, has about 33k on it, runs great, but needs maintenance. basically, it is really, really original.
i am thinking about agreed value with my regular insurer.
my number is about 10k. from what i understand, i have to get an appraisal.
what is a ballpark figure for one, and is it worth it?
my original dream is about to be fullfilled. my youngest kid will be able to drive it starting monday(if the weather is good).

Mr_Shiftright · May 2008

That's a pretty strong price for that car. Not sure if an appraiser can meet your expectations. Perhaps, if he can find very low miles comparables. But the price guides are much lower on the car, so he/she will have to compensate by digging out low milers. Sounds like $7,500 is all the money in the world here.

explorerx4 · May 2008

here is what i am looking at for for my number. i realize these are asking prices:

i really like this one and it is located only a couple of hours from where i live. a year older and 5k more miles, but limited edition:
7 up

pretty close to what i have, but 2 years newer, leather, 10k less miles:
very white

ebay: i have black top, black cloth

Mr_Shiftright · May 2008

I see eBay agrees with $7,500, so far. Keep an eye on that auction and print it out when it ends. This would be a good comp for you.

The other comparables aren't really accurate. The one car is two years newer, and these Mustangs behave like used cars in price, not like collectibles....so the newer they are, the more they are worth. A 93 is worth more than a 91 by about $1,500 to $2,000 dollars.

As for the 7-Up edition, that's worth way more than your car, so no good on comps there.

Oh I'm sorry you asked about price of an appraisal as well. That usually runs from $150 to $225, depending on who does it and how well. Sometimes a dealer will write something up for you for cheap, but that's a bit risky when it comes to settlement time, and it's possible your insurance company won't take such a "brief" appraisal. But maybe they will.

I'm kind of surprised they would even write an "agreed upon" value. Usually it's just ACV or "stated value" with these larger companies.

andre1969 · May 2008

I'm partial to the 4-door Town Sedan because it's the only one with a decent amount of room for the driver. Americans must have been a lot smaller in 1928.

That might be part of it, but at that point in time, I think the idea of just having a car was still considered a luxury, and we hadn't really progressed to the point of a roomy, comfortable car yet. At least, not for the driver...sure, there were luxury cars and limos built that were great for the back seat passengers, but probably torture for the chauffeur. Remember at that time, cars were still evolving from the old stagecoaches and wagons that came before them.

Even in the 40's and early 50's, a lot of cars really didn't have a whole lot of legroom. I remember sitting in a late 40's Buick that was for sale at a swap meet, and was really disappointed at how cramped it was. The seat was high up, but way too close to the pedals and firewall to be of any use to me. And that bus steering wheel took up a lot of space. Really makes you wonder how heavyset people could squeeze behind the wheel back in those days.

Mr_Shiftright · May 2008

Probably 1928 was just at the cusp of a new attitude about cars 'being comfortable. In 1919, perhaps only 1 in 10 cars were closed. By 1930, it was the other way 'round completely. I think it was designers like Harley Earl who projected the idea that a car was an item of style and comfort as well as mere utility. Henry Ford himself despised fancy, cushy cars. One time his workers made up a fancy Model T for him, painting it red and putting all kinds of goo-gahs on it, and he got so furious he had it destroyed.

explorerx4 · May 2008

mr. shifty. thanks for your insight. i was only proposing an agreed value policy.
i will just leave it as is. the local agents can't even get which vehicles i own correct.
91 stangs have a forged piston engine, which was downgraded the next year.
full insurance goes into effect tomorrow, but the weather for the next week or so, doesn't look to good, so it will just sit in the garage for a while longer.

Mr_Shiftright · May 2008

Maybe one of the other specialty insurers will take it on? There are quite a few of these companies. You can get a good list from www.hemmings.com.

It would be good to get an agreed upon policy on the car; otherwise, if its ACV policy they're gonna offer you $3,500 bucks for it, and that's not good.

splay · May 2008

a friend of mine has a 40-42 dodge coupe, just the main shell, sitting in his yard, not banged up, not rusted through except the floor is gone.... he's getting ready to scrap it, could anyone give me a guess on what kind of money he could get for it?

explorerx4 · May 2008

i already found out the hagerty and grundy are not interested, not old enough.
nothing the matter with poking arounds hemmings for a while though!

Mr_Shiftright · May 2008

(see list below for alternative)

I'd love to have an insurance company named SNEED. It's like nobody would mess with you. "OH YEAH? Well I got SNEED insurance buddy, so you are dead meat!"

 American Collectors Insurance Inc.
498 Kings Highway N, P.O. Box 8343
Cherry Hill, NJ 08034
800-360-2277, 856-779-7212
www.AmericanCollectors.com

 American Hobbyist Ins. Agency
2501 SE Aviation Way
Stuart, FL 34996
800-395-4835, 772-287-9363
www.AmericanHobbyist.com

 Condon & Skelly
121 E. Kings Highway, Suite 203
Maple Shade, NJ 08052
800-257-9496
www.condonskelly.com

 Great American Insurance
Classic Collectors Program
P.O. Box 429569
Cincinnati, OH 45242-9569
800-252-5233
www.classiccollectors.com

 J.C. Taylor Antique Automobile Ins. Agency
320 South 69th St.
Upper Darby, PA 19082
800-345-8290, 610-853-1300
www.jctaylor.com

 Sneed Insurance
PO Box 34698
Memphis, TN 38184-0698
800-619-7827
www.sneedinsurance.com

explorerx4 · May 2008

i kind of like condon & skelly(cadaver & skeleton), kind of a goth thing.
one thing i have figured out is that you need each driver in your family to have a primary driver other than the vehicle you want to insure.
i'm about to be 4 cars, 4 drivers. :sick:

roadburner · May 2008

Does anyone have any idea what a reasonable price would be for a car in absolutely immaculate condition?

Mr_Shiftright · May 2008

that depends heavily on what you mean by "immaculate". You mean 100 pt show car, better than new, or just a very clean restoration meant to be driven?

If it's a very clean sharp resto but not a show car, probably around $25,000 should do it.

For show quality, it could bust $30K.

A #3 "driver", a "ten-footer", perhaps $13,000 to $15,000.

A kinda shabby but running, all there car, around $7,500

This is, by the way, a difficult car to restore.

roadburner · May 2008

Thanks! The car I'm looking at is on eBay Motors-Item number: 130224521081-and it's not all that far from where I live. I was guessing that $25K would be a fair price, but after talking with some friends I now wonder if the car is TOO nice:

By that I mean that, while I would never drive it in the ice and snow or use it for a daily driver, I would drive it. Even-HORRORS!-in the rain.
It sure is a beauty though, and the TR3 has been my favorite "affordable" British sports car ever since I was a kid. I find myself wondering "What would Peter Egan do?"

Mr_Shiftright · May 2008

Well there are some drawbacks to the car--it has Webers instead of SUs, so it'll suck gas and never run right on the street (Webers are for tracking a car); it has a TR4 transmission with overdrive, which would be great if one actually drove the car but is useless for a trailer queen; also the restoration was done a long time ago, so apparently the car has had little use.

And last of all, I hate chrome wires--they should be painted. This is a 60s British sports car for gawd's sake. Don't put a rhinestone collar on a workin' sheep dog.

ljgbjg · May 2008

Sorry Shifty - I have to disagree with you on the chrome wires. All the 60's E types had them, and a friend of mine had a TR-3 with them too. Maybe 50's with painted wires. When I was at SU in college in 66-70 all the frat boys were dirving Healy 3000 Mk IVs with chrome wires, Jags, and some pedestrian TR3s - all chrome.

Mr_Shiftright · May 2008

I didn't say they might not be correct--I just said I hate chrome wires. I think they are hideous on a British sports car IMO. Gaudy tarting-up of a classic design, as well as impractical. Once they start to rust (which they will) or need re-tightening, you have an enormous expense on your hands. Wire wheels are enough of a PITA as it is, without compounding it and making them jewelry instead of real wheels! First thing I'd do is get rid of them or paint them. We of the British car types who actually drive their cars extensively identify a trailer queen by chrome wires, as a car not seriously driven (or understood) by the owner. The worst crime is chrome wires on an MG TC.

Think of a baseball bat that is highly varnished and hung on a wall as opposed to oiled up and used in a baseball game. That sort of thing.

texases · May 2008

I think you're right in passing on it - they seem to have put everything on this to make it look good, rather than to be an enjoyable driver (except maybe the tranny). Imagine trying to keep it looking this way with use - that spotless engine bay would never be the same!

ljgbjg · May 2008

Sorry - I took your comment to mean that you did not think chrome wires were "original" - "And last of all, I hate chrome wires--they should be painted. This is a 60s British sports car for gawd's sake". I guess the manufacturers did not agree with you.

I used my 4.2L XKE as a daily driver w/chrome wires - simply sprayed them with wheel cleaner weekly, and had my mechanic check them when I had it tuned once a year in the Spring. IMHO British sports cars and Ferraris are the ONLY cars that look good with wires - including the MG TC.

isellhondas · May 2008

I totally agree with you on those chrome wires. They just look tacky on a British sports car.

I've noticed, people are putting these on mid-fifties Buicks. They just aren't correct unless it's a 53-54 Skylark. Almost as bad as a continental kit of fender skirts!

I HATE those items on an old car!!

Mr_Shiftright · May 2008

Chrome wires are a form of overkill to my eyes. I don't mean it's a CRIME or anything--- I just think they really detract from the charm of a British sports car, and make them look more like '65 Thunderbirds or something. "Less is more" seems to apply to my idea of what a British sports car is.

For instance, I'd much prefer disc wheels or period knock-offs on a British sports car myself. Again, to my sensibilities, TCs look absolutely ghastly with chrome wires. Painted a dull silver they look fantastic. Jags and Ferraris are not so bad with chrome wires, if they are concours cars, since everything else has been over-restored as well by that time, so why stop now? People are often shocked to see how an original Ferrari was bolted together. As Enzo used to say: "You buy the engine, we give you the body".

But on the road cars, I just love the look of muddy painted wire wheels on a British sports car, lathered in patina, sliding around a corner. British sports cars were affordable cars, for the middle class (at best). They were never built to be fussed over. A Jaguar was considered a bargain in its day (and it was).

I have friends who won't even SELL parts to people who are over-restoring British cars or motorcycles. Unless they race them, no dice, no parts. Don't know as I would be quite that self-righteous, but I do understand the sentiment behind it.

As for British car makers disagreeing with me, I'd consider that a compliment given some of the decisions they made.

ljgbjg · May 2008

I have a pretty good memory - 50's British sports cars often had painted wires did they not, or solid discs - withness the XK120, 140, et all? I don't remember any MGTC without chromewires, but certainly TDs. But once into the 60's, having had an E-type and seen many when looking for mine, all had chrome wires. The only solid disc E types I remember seeing were the V12's of Series III in the early 70's, and no, I did not like the wires on them - nor for that matter any of the lines of what had become a bastardized design from the original 1961.

Mr_Shiftright · May 2008

Yeah I think you're right, chrome wires came into play in the 60s---probably they painted them because England was so impoverished in the 50s.

They also used whatever they had on the shelves and assembly was haphazard. I've seen MG TCs with one door longer than the other.

Still most early British sports cars were RACED, which is what i liked about them, and which differentiates them from later sports car, or from touring roadsters like the Mercedes 190SL.

Wire wheels weren't so good for racing. They really can be a pain as they don't take stress very well. I've seen them fly apart or collapse.

ljgbjg · May 2008

Oh no - I could not imagine racing! No, they are sor street looks only and with that I agree with you, though I did see many a Ferrari at the North American Ferrari outing at Sumit Point racing with wires. not a good idea in my book - agree with you there. And on another point - C&D studied a Ferrari once and none of its spec matcheed up - one side was lower than the other, etc. - far from perfect!

Mr_Shiftright · May 2008

Early Ferrari build quality is appalling---even though the cars looked great. Lots of body filler, in brand new bodies. Enzo wasn't kidding--the body really was a throw-away item wrapped around a beautifully made engine. Ferraris were raced, and were expected to be wrecked, patched up, rebodied or re-paneled.

this is why, ironically, classic Ferrari buyers spending millions are far less fussy about matching numbers and authentic sheet metal than a 69 Camaro buyer. This amuses me.

yellowvette · June 2008

YES!! Sad but true, Classic, Sports and Muscle cars are being shipped in containers overseas everyday (Motorcycles also). Go to www.craigslist.org---free site to post anything--then look in other countries(Sweeden,etc) under cars for sale. You will be surprised,most of these cars are NOT even posted for sale in the U.S.A.

Mr_Shiftright · June 2008

Well it's a kind of arbitrage isn't it? People are taking advantage of currency differentials and cashing in on them.

hpmctorque · June 2008

Interesting facts in your message #131 about early Ferraris (the cars) and the company's founder, that I didn't know.

Mr_Shiftright · June 2008

the first truly "mass produced" Ferrari was the Testarossa (from the 1980s).

explorerx4 · June 2008

one of my neighbors told me there is a good demand for certain x5's in russia.

british_rover · June 2008

Most Black luxury SUVs have good export demands to either Russia, eastern Europe or the middle east. They are some catches though as the SUV had to have been built after a certain date to avoid the majority of the import duties and needs to have a certain mileage range on it.

Infiniti FX that were built before a certain date are particularly strong and so are all black Escalades.

burdawg · June 2008

They must be watching American rap videos and want to be "cool" like our gangster rappers.

british_rover · June 2008

Yeah that is part of it and in some of these countries the taxes and duties on these cars when bought new that can triple the price. They can save a ton of money buying the car in the US, even more so now that our dollar is so weak, and avoid most of the taxes and duties if the car is of a certain age.

fintail · June 2008

The bad taste that comes along with new (or simply excess) money knows no geographic bounds.

hpmctorque · June 2008

I agree, fintail, but to the extent that exports of some of these used dinosaurs reduces the supply on our market, they're doing us a favor. It'll help, if only in a small way, improve resale values for those who may want to trade into more fuel efficient vehicles, but can't because they're upside down

dbt · June 2008

I tried this over on "real world trade-in", and was referred here.
Minneapolis, MN
1994 Porsche 968 Convertible (thin market for these)
6-sp manual, RWD
70,000 miles
Black / black
Leather, CD, heated seats
Good / Clean condition (no major problems)

Private Party: Edmunds TMV says $9300, KBB says $14,900

What's it really worth?

Thanks.

Mr_Shiftright · June 2008

Price guides are often lame on Porsche pricing.

I'd say that for a very very nice one, about $16,000 should be all the money.

Deduct accordingly for paint issues, interior wear, mechanical repairs, etc.

lemmer · June 2008

I wish I had my Excellence here. That usually gives a pie-in-the-sky price.

Mr_Shiftright · June 2008

Well one always has to suspect pricing from a source that adores the object under examination.

Price guides are tricky. One has to know precisely what the "condition" they are showing actually means. One man's "excellent" is another man's "good" or even "average", while another person's "excellent" is actually show quality.

I don't think price guides should list show quality pricing, since true #1 cars are very rare, are NEVER driven, (some never even started up, lest the engine be discolored or stained) and are trailered with little tire muffs to keep the grass out of the treads.

Many #1 cars are never even offered for sale publicly, so it's hard to know the prices they bring.

dbt · June 2008

Thanks very much. That helps a lot.

brookej11 · June 2008

Hey,

I'm looking to buy a '67 Tbird and have been searching around online to find some numbers to gauge the current value of the car. I found a website online called www.collectorcarnet.com which sells a database of actual classic car sale prices. It looks pretty reliable, but I was hoping to get some feedback first. Has anyone used this website and bought their database before?

Thanks,
Brooke

scks7 · June 2008

I inherited this wonderful car and have tooled around town for the past 2 years. It is a hardtop with approximately 75,000 miles. My aunt was the original owner and the car is all original parts and is running great. Anyone have any idea how to go about selling the car and how to determine a selling price? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Mr_Shiftright · June 2008

Auction databases can be helpful but can also be misleading. Some auction results are in fact fraudulent (we call it chandelier bidding) and of course any car listed as "not sold" is useless information. But if you had a large enough list of "sold" cars that are exactly like the one you are pricing (you cannot compare one body style to another, for example, nor can you compare a show quality car to a "driver", or a modified car to a stock one).

In the case of the type of car you are looking for I don't think you need to spend money on a subscription, since these are not high dollar automobiles. I think if you checked out www.nadaguides.com, then looked at www.collectorcartrader.com for comparable ads, you might start to get a sense of value

You didn't tell us if you are shopping for a coupe or a 4D, or what kind of condition you are seeking (fixer-upper, clean driver, show car) so we can't really offer an opinion of value.

Mr_Shiftright · June 2008

Does it have factory AC?
What is the overall condition? Is it show quality, spotless, prisitine? Or is it a "clean driver"? Or does it have a few scrapes and bumps and faded paint?

What color is it?

What is the mechanical condition? Does it need overhaul of any major component?

scks7 · June 2008

It is black with red interior. It does not have AC. As for the condition, that is a tough question for me to answer. The paint is original but is faded somewhat on the hood and has not chipping but what looks like cracks in the finish. it clearly needs detailing but probably more. The antena cracked off and while the radio worked when I first got it it doesnt work now, but that could be a loose wire for all I know. The body is in good shape but there is rusting on the interior when you open up the front hood and look at the two sides. As for the parts, we replaced the carburator but with I believe an original part, aside from that there have been no replaced parts. the car runs well and handles beautifully. I have driven it around town, into New York City and on the highways. The muffler makes noise but I was told that is part of its attraction. I even have the original manual.

burdawg · July 2008

I'll wager from your description that there's more rust lurking around than you think. The paint being bad on the hood isn't surprising, since a car that old, unless carefully maintained, probably doesn't have any insulation left under the hood to protect the paint from the engine heat. If it's been around for 44 New York winters then it's going to need a good bit of work most likely.

What is this thing worth?

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