What is this thing worth?

Mr_Shiftright · July 2008

Given your description, certainly worth well under $5,000. I'd eBay it with a reserve of $2,500 and see what happens. If nobody in America meets your reserve, you have your answer, and then contact the highest bidder and try to work a deal. There is really not a whole lot of appeal in a '64 without AC and with cosmetic and mechanical issues.

Tough sell---- get what you can and don't turn down any real money on the table, would be my advice. You can sell it cheap with a clear conscience that you haven't done something dumb, I assure you.

brookej11 · July 2008

Thanks for your advice. I went and checked out NADA, but wanted more than their general figures for what I should be paying for low end/average/high end retail. The other site was even less helpful - it only had two listings and neither for a car in very good shape.

I went ahead ahead and purchased the database at collectorcarnet.com and it ended up being extremely helpful. The database had real sale prices for both cars sold in auction houses and through dealers. Having an idea of what a specific car sold for and what condition it was in at the time definitely helped me understand what I should be expecting to pay.

Oh, Im shopping for a coupe - preferably in close show condition, but Im willing to fix up a thing or two.

Brooke

cheeebs · July 2008

Hello All,
I am preparing to sell my 1970 Pontiac LeMans Sport with a custom drivetrain. It is truly a custom car, so I'm not sure how to price it. It has a full race suspension and a handbuilt Chevy BB (468), for example. Provided below is a link to a page with a few pics and an info sheet. Please be kind enough to comment only if you read the info sheet carefully. By the way, this car has been on blocks, engine properly pickled, in an indoor storage facility since 2003. Thanks very much for your help...
http://davidb.net/spasm/car.html

genoivan · July 2008

i am looking to sell my project car and am looking for a price on what i should start with

it is a 1971 pontiac gto with the gt37 lemans package
i dont have an engine in it right now i have a picture of the body

there is no rust on the body or frame of the car at all, the paint is a little faded and the leather interior is cracked but i know it would make a very easy restoration any input would be greatly appreciated thanks

Mr_Shiftright · July 2008

Probably $3,500 or something like that? It's kind of hard to price exactly, because at this point it's a 'dream' you are selling, not a running car. I think you could find a clean daily driver of this type for around $12,000 or so. Also 1971 is long past the GTO golden years, so it's not that much in demand. Best thing you can do is check Hemmings Motor News and http://www.autotraderclassics.com/ for comparables. I think most "project cars" of this type will fall in the range I quoted you.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2008

Customized cars have to be valued individually, and also by comparing to "like" automobiles.

By "like" I mean:

1. same type of car (muscle car of same vintage, sports car, luxury car, etc)

2. the quality of the workmanship (built by someone known, or home-built, or ???)

3. the list of components and options (customs with disk brakes, AC, modern o/d transmissions, F.I. are usually worth more than those without those things).

4. trophies & awards

So best way to price your car is shop places like Hemmings Motor News, http://www.autotraderclassics.com/, www.carsonline.com and look for really accurate comparables.

Another VERY rough gauge is that your value is rarely, if ever, going to approach the total of your receipts and in fact is often 2/3 to 1/2 of what's put into a custom.

Why? Because one person's choices are very individualistic and don't appeal to a wide range of buyers.

couger · August 2008

I am liquidating an estate which owns a 1968 mercury couger/9,700mi/one owner/original interior. I also have the owners manual,canceled chk & purchase invoice. How can I know I am getting a fair price for it if I sell or am dealing with a reputable person if I donate to a museum?

Mr_Shiftright · August 2008

Well one way to determine a fair price would be an eBay auction. You could put a ridiculous hidden reserve on it (say $100,000) and then see what it is bid up to. If you don't like the final bid (the car will not sell of course since your reserve isn't met), then you can re-run it, or if you DO like the final bid, you can make an after-auction deal with the last bidder by contacting them through e-mail.

Naturally, to run an auction you'd have to provide a lot more information that you have given us, such as:

Is it an XR-7?
What engine?
What transmission?

What DOCUMENTED proof do you have of the mileage? Are you the original owner or is the mileage hearsay?

What is the condition of the vehicle. Collectible cars are rated #1 (show room perfect), #2 local show quality but not perfect; #3 clean daily driver #4, running decent car with needs #5 running or non-running, rough car #6 parts car only.

Values for this car will vary enormously depending on model and engine and transmission.

Unless it's a 427 or 428 GT I don't think a museum would have much interest. Besides, donating a car isn't as beneficial, tax-wise, as it used to be now that the donation rules have changed.

couger · August 2008

Thank you for the education! The only thing I do know is that it is not an XR-7. I can see that I will have to get a car enthusiast to take a look so I have the engine/transmission information. The owner was an old maid who led a very reclusive life and walked almost everywhere she went. I have no reason to think that she would have been inaccurate in her facts. I e-mailed pictures to another person earlier today and he said the interior had to have been replaced. I am quite sure that not one person has ever sat in the back seat of this car or the passenger side of the front seat. Your e-bay idea is great - - I will just have to verify my info first.
Thanks again!
Sharon

Mr_Shiftright · August 2008

I think that if you don't have good documentation you shouldn't claim the low mileage, since this claim would encourage someone to pay a premium price. If the facts later come out that the mileage was not original, but had rolled over one time, then you would be guilty of misrepresenting the car to the buyer. It's best to say you don't know but in your opinion the low miles are "possible given the condition of the car".

RE: Identifying the car. The VIN number would have the 3rd and 4th digit as "91" for a regular Cougar and "93" for an XR-7.

The 5th digit of the VIN represents the engine code. The normal engine is a 302 V8 and would have the digit "F" or "6"

A 390 V8, which is worth more, would have the 5th digit as X, Y or Z

The digits Q, 8 P or W would be a home run for you but I doubt a regular Cougar would have these engines.

If you post the VIN #s and the numbers on the data plate (I think riveted to the drivers door), we can translate it for you.

couger · August 2008

It looks as though this couger is not anything special other than the fact that it is in darn good shape for its age. this appears on the door plate:
65A D 1B 02D 31 5 w
body color trim date dso axle tran
VIN: 8F91C559040
A20274830
I am trying to contact a former garage owner wh inspected this vehicle for many years to verify mileatge.
Thanks again for all of your help!!

Mr_Shiftright · August 2008

Okay,

So this is a 1968 (8)
Built in Dearborn Michigan (F)
Cougar 2D hardtop (91)
302 V8 (the "c" must be a 6)

Door Plate:

This is a Cougar 2D hardtop, bright blue metallic, blue interior, built April 2, shipped to Buffalo DSO, with a 3.00:1 axle and C4 automatic transmission.

As you say, nothing special except for condition and mileage.

Here's a very similar car with similar low miles for sale (that hasn't sold BTW):

http://cars-on-line.com/29871.html

Personally I think the car will sell between $8,000 and $15,000. Anything in there is possible. Naturally I'd try for the high end. It would depend on whether it has working AC (that's worth $1,500) and how good it really looks.

If someone put "real money" on the table and made any offer in the teens, I'd certainly think twice before turning it down.

couger · August 2008

WOW! I spent hours searching the internet & e-mailing all over the place and you answered all my questions in a nutshell!
Thank you again!

euphonium · August 2008

Would that not indicate a 2 venturi carb?

Mr_Shiftright · August 2008

My book doesn't show a "C" code, only a 6.

cougar: good luck selling it.

explorerx4 · August 2008

you deserve an 'atta boy for that!

euphonium · August 2008

Opps, I was thinking Mustang.

garv214 · August 2008

Shifty

What changes have you noticed in the collector car market over the past several months? I was curious if the recent spike in gas prices is redefining the collector market.

I recently purchased a 1972 Datsun 240Z that gets in the low 20's in mixed driving, much better than my 1968 442 which got about 8 mpg. I was just curious if you have seen any trends towards for fuel-efficient collector cars.

Gary B

By the way, my 442 sold exactly for what you had estimated in the market valuation that you did for me last year. A great service that you provide to us in the Bay Area.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2008

Thank you Gary,

The only CERTAIN trend I'm seeing is a healthy drop in prices of later model exotics, like Ferrari, Porsche, Lambo, etc. By this I mean cars from the late 1990s, early 2000s, which are just off lease or being discarded by their obviously affluent owners for 2009 models. These cars have dropped $30K-50K in a matter of months. They are also pretty wicked gas hogs, but modern enough to be used as daily drivers. So here, in this case, gas mileage matters.

I realize it sounds absurd that the owner of a 2004 Lamborghini Murcielago worth 1/4 million 6 months ago and now willing to sell for $175K would be presented as a person interested in gas mileage, but you know, if you drive it 10,000 miles a year, and you're sucking maybe 8 MPG, that's almost $6,000 in gasoline a year in the California area. Not chump change. Especially when you add it to the $50K depreciation whack you just took.

Another trend I think is *real* is a fall in value of generally "worthless" gas hogs from the late 1970s and 80s....you know, those Lincoln Mark Vs and VIs, those big conversion vans, those old 3/4 ton pickups. I'm sure you could all add to the list of relatively unimportant gas-guzzlers from the Dark Age.

But I don't think the owner of a valuable 70s Dodge Challenger, or a 59 Cadillac, is going to care about gas mileage. These types of cars are driven so rarely anyway.

explorerx4 · August 2008

from the ad, i'm guessing these must be on the upswing?:
my gut hurts from laughing

Mr_Shiftright · August 2008

GEEZ the seller hasn't a clue. The market suggests a top dollar of maybe $2,500 for this '79 Mercury Zephyr, if it was pristine, so he is asking 3X market value. The phone isn't going to ring, I'm sorry. Okay ASK $3,500 and you might at least get a nibble and an offer. But at $7500 all you will get is abuse.

explorerx4 · August 2008

at least this is 5 years newer.
80's car with a 50's name

texases · August 2008

On a recent televised auction, seemed like many of the 'normal' muscle cars (not hemis, limited production, etc) were going for $20-$25k - not bad money, but nobody could be making money on their very nice restorations.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2008

Unless your car has 1) major horsepower 2) a magic "name" (and it's not 'Polara") and 3) documentation up the wazoo, don't be counting on any home runs in today's muscle car market.

Not only has the term "classic" been horribly abused to the point of ridicule, but the term "muscle car" is now being applied to 1965 Thunderbirds, so you know the end of the world is close at hand. :shades:

andre1969 · August 2008

Not only has the term "classic" been horribly abused to the point of ridicule, but the term "muscle car" is now being applied to 1965 Thunderbirds, so you know the end of the world is close at hand.

You mean to tell me my grandparents' '82 Malibu Classic wagon...WASN'T! What's next...the realization that my old '89 Fury wasn't so GRAN, after all. :shades:

As for those Fairmonts and Zephyrs, I actually kinda like them. Not enough to over-pay for one, and to be honest I find the Fox platform a bit tight inside. They seemed like a good idea at the time. Intended to compete with the likes of the Nova and Aspen/Volare as a compact car (remember in 1978, a midsized car was generally considered something the size of a modern Crown Vic. CR actually classified GM's downsized '78 Malibu et al as compact!), they were about 500-600 lb lighter, yet had similar interior room. They were light enough to get by with 4-cyl engines and the lighter 200 straight six, whereas the Nova started off with a heavy 250 CID unit, and the Aspen/Volare a 225 slant six that weighed almost as much as some V-8s!

I imagine that when equipped with the 302 V-8, these cars were pretty quick for their time. The only way to make a Nova fairly quick was with the 350-4bbl, or a copcar 360-4bbl for the Mopars. And then you ended up with something that weighed almost as much as a downsized Caprice. And while the 302 could probably break 20 mpg on the highway, I seriously doubt a 350 or 360 could!

Mr_Shiftright · August 2008

I'd prefer to avoid using the term "quick" as applied to a Fairmont or Zephyr.

How about "un-slow"?

explorerx4 · August 2008

can't remember where you posted about AMC cop cars but here ya go!: moving violation

grifter55 · August 2008

forgive me, older cars aren't really my thing. my grandpa has an old truck sitting by his house for sale. its a chevy, pretty sure 1956, its got a half ton front, one ton back he said it was a navy sceince project. the main thing i know is it has a corvette engine under the hood. i remember 302 being thrown around, but i honestly don't know the exact engine. he's asking 800 for the truck and it still runs. my question to everyone who understands this stuff is would a 350 out of a '69 El Camino fit under the hood? and would the $800 price tag be worth it? i'd appreciate some knowledgable input, and i can attain more info if needed

andre1969 · August 2008

Heck, I can't remember now anymore, either. I caught that movie, "Moving Violation", on tv about a year or so ago. As I recall, the gist of it was that the local cops were trying to blackmail the guy that played Grandpa Walton. One of the deputies wanted in on the graft, so the sheriff shot him. A drifter and a waitress, who were nearby doing a little backseat boogie were witness to it, and the rest of the movie was basically one long chase.

Kind of a cool movie, as those types go. Lots of car chases, wrecks, etc. When I saw it, I thought that it might have actually inspired some of the stunts they did in "Smokey and the Bandit", a year later. For instance, there was a scene where they drove a police car under a tractor trailer, shedding its roof. And even a scene where they took a 70's airbag-equipped Olds and wrecked it, deploying the airbag. Must have been quite a sight for the time. In "Smokey and the Bandit", towards the end, they ran a '74 98 into a '77 LeMans, but the impact wasn't enough to deploy the airbag. About all it did was put a scratch on the Olds, while smearing the LeMans. I read somewhere that years later, that car was used in a crash test video, which did deploy the airbags.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2008

Andre, I'm counting on you to stay on topic here :mad:

OLD TRUCK -- Well, I've heard the "corvette engine" story many times, but there's a way to tell.

Face the truck. Open the hood. Look to the cylinder head on YOUR left side. Go to the front of the cylinder head, and you'll see a horizontal pad, just below the front of the head, with numbers and letters stamped on it.

Get us those numbers/letters and we might be able to tell you what engine it has. You can use a toothbrush and some soap to clean up that pad so you can see better.

Another set of #s would be the casting numbers, which you can see by going to the driver's side, lean over the fender, and shine a flashlight between the engine and the transmission, straight down from the driver's windshield wiper in other words. You will see LARGE numbers (about 8 or 9 of them). Get those, too.

Also a VIN # would be helpful.

Any old running pickup should be worth $800 if it's not badly rusted, and a '56 has collector truck value. But rust can kill you on these, if the cab is badly rusted where the door frame meets the truck frame. Also things like broken windows can be expensive to fix.

You can put any Chevy engine you want in there, sure, as long as you mate it to the proper transmission or get the right adaptors.

Most people hook up a Chevy 350 to a TH350 automatic, that's the easiest.

andre1969 · August 2008

Okay then, is a '74 Olds Ninety-Eight WITH the airbag setup worth more than one without? :P

Actually, how stable would those airbags be after 30+ years. This actually is a relevant question, since I like those big mid-70's GM cruisers, and could see myself with one some day. And even though that was a rare option, I have seen them from time to time at classic car shows, so they're still out there.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2008

I certainly wouldn't count on it working. It's basically a non-issue for value but it might give you some bragging rights at the local Show and Shine while you're sipping a beer and talking about early air bags with other totally fascinated individuals who are no doubt hanging on your every word even though they might not look like it. :P

If you ever want to join in a conversation about the increase in overall car value caused by having the proper bolt head markings on your left rear bumper bracket on pre-1930 2 door cars only, go to a Model A Ford owners meet. (ironically).

explorerx4 · August 2008

i have to take the blame for that one, i posted in the wrong place.

explorerx4 · August 2008

this will make up for it.
be careful if they want only cash

armes · October 2008

I have just inherited a 1917 Olds Model 45, 7 Passenger Cabriolet. It is a rare car as only 1097 were built. It also is rare in the fact that it has a Liberty/Lycombing Light V-8 engine with aluminum pistons, cylinder heads and intake manifold. Also making it rare is that it does not have the traditional Stromberg carburetor. It is equipped with a Pemberthy/Ball & Ball fuel injection system. I have been told that this engine was originally built for use in Bi-planes in WWI and that olds was in on building/ modifying their cast iron V-8 engine ( 1915 - 1923 ) for aircraft purposes and experimented with installing the same in a few of these cars. This car was stored for 48 years in a semi trailer. What is so great about this car is it only has 1,226 original miles on it and the engine has electric as well as crank start. It cranks with one hand!!!

My questions are: where to find an owners/repair manual and what would something like this be worth? It does need the interior and top redone. It has new tires @ $250 each.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2008

I think you'll need to do more research here as some of it doesn't add up. You were probably given a lot of anecdotal info that isn't accurate.

Does your engine look like this?

As you can see, stuffing a Liberty V8 engine into that car wouldn't have been very easy. And this engine never really went into production because it vibrated so heavilyl apparently.

Penberthy/ Ball & Ball made carburetors, not fuel injection.

And a Lycoming engine didn't power the first aircraft until 1929. They never made engines for Oldsmobile but did make engines for military trucks in 1917.

What you might have here is probably the normal Olds engine, which is actually better for you.

Hard to say what it's worth without really looking it over, since restoring a car this old is not going to be all that easy, if parts are missing. I'd guess a car like this in "Fair" condition, all there, not running, might be worth $5,000 to $10,000 dollars.

burdawg · October 2008

Of course anything is possible, but I have to agree with shifty. If you could post some pics it would help greatly. It's not going to be hard to identify a liberty engine. Also keep in mind that very few 8 cylinder liberty engines were built, the vast majority were 12 cylinders, all overhead cam. The standard V8 in your car was an L-head configuration. Also, a liberty engine would not hand crank easily, but the low compression L-head would (well relatively anyway).

armes · October 2008

I was cranking the engine with the plugs out and PB Blaster in the cylinders to make sure it wasn't seized up so there was no compression build up. I haven't tried it with the plugs in. I am still in the process of dropping the pan, cleaning the sump and pre lubricating all moving internal parts with moisture displacement oils. The oil in the pan had jelled over the past 48 years and I am forceing ( 30# pressure ) PB Blaster through the oil galleys followed by 5W40 motor oil to flush out the system. Clean oil is now flowing and I think I am ready to button her up. I also looked deep inside and it appears that the tappets have rollers riding on the cam. Seems awful high tech except for aircraft production. The spare cast iron engine ( 1918 cast date ) I have with this does not have these and the actual design of the oiling system is different includeing the oil pump which on the light engine appears to be a high volume like todays modern style gear driven pumps. The oil pan is only 3 1/4" deep and the external oil lines from the sump to pump to main galley is 3/8 copper tubing. The cylinder heads have fuel pre charge cups above each cylinder to put initial fuel for firing the engine. The car also has a large electric fuel pump with 2 glass filter bowls in line before and after the pump. These have ceramic elements and not paper.

I removed the front wheel assembly and left tie rod end. The bearings ( actual roller bearings and not ball bearings ) and races look brand new and the tie rod shaft had no wear and shined like a mirror. The points, rotor and distributor cap look like new.

I am thinking about going through the starter prior to applying power just to make sure that corrosion hasn't caused any problems.

I have a digital camera, but do not know how to transfer to the net.

texases · October 2008

A alternative way to show us what it looks like it to Google appropriate terms, click on 'images', and paste a link to a picture of an engine that looks like yours. That said, you have listed a number of very specific characteristics of the car, and you'd have more luck finding an expert on brass-era cars at a web site specializing in them, such as the forums for the Antique Automobile Club of America: AACA Forums

armes · October 2008

The info relayed to me was that Olds modified its own V-8 under specifications given by Liberty/Lycombing for their use. Could be erroneous. Highly unlikely that such an engine would be developed for a 7 pass Touring car in such limited numbers.

I have discovered that this particular car was originally purchased by Flanner and Buchannon Mortuary in Indianapolis, Indiana for use as a funeral limosine definitely not as a high performance street vehicle.

armes · October 2008

Further identifying information on the "supposed fuel injection". This unit is 8" long from front to back of air inlet and 6" tall from bottom of unit to where it mount to intake. It is made completely of brass and has a large round brass fuel bowl ( holds about a pint of fuel ) that is sealed top and bottom with a small valve on top with a flat spring tab that sits on and over the valve. The main body has ( 2 ) 1" diamater solid brass air mixture adjusting screws that have wire tension springs that engage around the perimeter of the caps in indentations around the caps and are located at the air horn end of the unit. It is side drafted toward the rear of the engine and mounted under the intake thusly up drafting into the manifold. There are ( 2 ) levers (cable activated) at the air horn of the unit that I assume control air flow and choke ( haven't looked inside of the horn yet ). There is a throttle cable that extends down the driver side of the unit to the main body. There are no idle or air mixture screws anywhere that I can see yet. Casting date on side of engine is 5/20/1917.

The only identifying marks are cast into the brass lid of the fuel bowl and reads
" Ball & Ball, Pemberthy Injector Co. Detroit Mi. "

Now, I have the spare 9/23/1918 cast iron engine he purchased somewhere. Here are the idendifiers for the fuel system:
It has a 1 barrel carburetor that is only 6 " long and 5 " bottom to manifold flange. It has only 1 cable to control the throttle and 1 cable for the choke. There is only one fuel mixture screw and 1 air idle adjuster screw. It appears to be made of cast iron.

The only identifying marks are cast into the sides of the fuel bowl on both sides and reads Stromberg, South Bend, USA.

Now, tell me what you think we have here?

Mr_Shiftright · October 2008

Mr_Shiftright · October 2008

I think...I KNOW....you have a Ball & Ball carburetor made by the Penberthy Injector Company! This design appears in quite a few of the old carburetor reference books.

If you're going to do more research on this car, you'll have to get the names straight or you might waste time. It's PENberthy and LyCOMING, not "combing". FYI.

As for the engine, we'd need pix.

Also, as far as value goes, it would be better to have the original engine in the car. The UFE (Unidentified Flying Engine) could be put aside and perhaps, once ID'ed, it could turn out to be of some value to someone who has a car for it.

Actually I wouldn't try to start the unknown engine either, as you might damage it and thus diminsh whatever value it might have.

armes · October 2008

This engine is the same basic design as the cast iron engine. This vehicle was driven before being put into storage and is hooked up to the same transmission, same bell housing and same type clutch as the 1918 version. The generator, distrubutor, magneto and the engine hand crank interlocks on the crankshaft are the same as the 1918 as well as the motor mounts. Also, all the controls going through the dash appear to have been factory installed. Curious why you would suspect that this is not an original engine?

Mr_Shiftright · October 2008

Well I thought you said it was an airplane engine or something with roller tappets and fuel injection and...whatever...I just thought from your description that it was some bizarre powerplant in there.

Without pictures I'm easily confused :P

armes · October 2008

I will try my luck at adding some pictures.

otto8 · October 2008

Too bad that 68 wasn't one of those one year only GTEs. Super rare and
fetching over $100k in excellent condition!
http://www.mustangandfords.com/featuredvehicles/95438_1968_cougar_xr7_gte/index.- html
http://www.theclassiccougarnetwork.com/gte/

My bud had one and let it go years back for $5000! It is in the GTE registry
and is currently in SanDiego.
He sure kicks himself now!

Mr_Shiftright · October 2008

$100K is a very unusual price for this car.Sounds like either an asking price or a one-time lucky sale. Right now I think you could find a very nice one for $60,000----still, that's not chump change. They only made 600 or so of them, but on the other hand, it's a Mercury so it will always have to fight that image.

otto8 · October 2008

No luck involved................

A rare and unusual car and only one has been sold in the past few years
according to the Marti report at $125k.
I had met with Jim P. from the registry to supply info. on the car and if
it had factory tilt and rim-blo along with add on a/c installed when my
bud had the car in the 70s. Also by suprise there was another GTE
that we knew about in a nearby town that had been sitting in a driveway
for years. Turns out it was one of the early experimental mules and how/
why it ended up in the Syracuse area.

Both cars ended up with a Ford nut registry member in downstate NY.
He kept the experimental red one and my buds dark blue car ended
up with a collector in San Diego......................

Mr_Shiftright · October 2008

I don't think so. I think $60K-80K is the current market, tops. The days of wine and speculation for muscle cars of this type are over. I even expect the price to decline further.

What is this thing worth?

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles