How does gas at $4 and higher impact you?

gagrice · November 2012

I can't believe that many fools let their vehicles run out of gas. The only time I pushed a vehicle past the empty light in the last 30 years was that new VW Passat TDI. We went 55 miles after the light came on, and I was sweating it. I wanted to get to an ARCO in CA that had ULSD. That was April of 2005. Oregon was still selling high sulfur Diesel. The first tank of dirty diesel, put in by the dealer, was the only time in the 13 months I owned it that it did not get ULSD. That was the only time I pushed it past the light coming on. I generally fuel up when the tank gets close to a quarter full. I ran out of gas out fishing in Alaska back in the early 1970s. Had to walk 16 miles to Soldotna. I vowed never again to let that happen.

andre1969 · November 2012

I think the last time I ran out of gas was back in 1998, in my Mom's old '86 Monte Carlo while delivering pizzas. Fortunately I had run out right across the street from a gas station!

While I have nobody to blame but myself, I think the reason it happened was that I had gotten accustomed to cars that had fuel warning lights. I was used to old cars not having warning lights, but my '79 Newport and '82 Cutlass Supreme both had them, so it didn't even dawn on me, until it ran out of gas, that the '86 Monte wouldn't have one.

My 2000 Intrepid's fuel light would usually come on when it had burned about 13 gallons of fuel, leaving about 4 left. So, depending on my driving habits and whether it was local or on a trip, I might only have 70-80 miles left, or as much as 110-120.

My 2000 Park Ave's low fuel light will start to come on once it's burned about 13 gallons as well, but I think it has an 18.5 gallon tank, so I have a bit more range.

stever · November 2012

16 miles? LOL, that would do it.

I often let the light come on before I refuel but if I'm on the road, I just watch the trip odometer and go by it. It gets reset every fill-up. I figure I get my best mpg when I'm not hauling the extra gas weight around.

The last time I ran out of gas was in the Quest in Anchorage when it was pretty new. I stuck a gallon of gas in the back and intentionally ran it dry. Would up dying less than a block from the house. Poured the gallon in and went to the station.

Cars these days probably would burn up the fuel pump in two minutes, and wouldn't restart unless you primed all the injectors or worse.

fezo · November 2012

I'm the opposite. I've never run out of gas. I trace this to when my older brother and I shared a car with a dead gauge. He always assumed there was gas in it and I was constantly bailing him out. I started always assuming there was no gas in it.

Made for a couple fifty cent fill ups but worth the while.

stever · November 2012

"Thirteen cents of every retail dollar is spent at gas stations, but that level has stagnated in recent years amid weaker demand.

Gas sales have been subdued amid continued weak demand in the U.S. Gasoline use posted its weakest October since 2000 last month. A modest economic recovery and continued high unemployment, as well as higher fuel-economy standards, have reduced demand.

The more goods people can get online, the less time they need to spend in the car traveling to brick-and-mortar retailers."

13 Cents of Every Retail Dollar Spent at Gas Stations (Wall St. Journal)

stever · December 2012

"AAA Michigan says gasoline prices have fallen roughly 12 cents during the past week to a statewide average of about $3.45 per gallon.

The auto club said today the average is about 15 cents per gallon more than last year at this time."

Michigan gas prices down 12 cents from last week (Detroit Free Press)

I'm ready for another road trip but my wife is balking. A three week break from the last one isn't long enough for her this go round.

stever · December 2012

All 50 States Have Gas Below $4 for First Time in 2012 (WSJ)

michaellno · December 2012

With my $.10 grocery discount, I paid $3.259 at Shell for 91 premium today.

Still cost $53 to fill up, however.

RUG is now down to $3.039 at the local grocery store.

xwesx · December 2012

I could live with that! I think we're down to about $3.60 now, which is the lowest I've seen around here in a good long time (well over a year). I had stopped paying attention to the fuel prices for the longest time, but the other day when I filled my five-gallon container for my plow truck and the total was under $20, well, that sure caught my eye! :sick:

stever · December 2012

Any idea how much home heating oil is going for these days?

xwesx · December 2012

No, but it is generally about $0.10 less than road diesel, which is at $3.80 right now, so I imagine it to be between $3.60 and $3.70. Much better than a month ago, if that's the case!

gagrice · December 2012

Is most of FBKs on Natural Gas now?

xwesx · December 2012

No, but there's a lot of talk about it. The problem is that it is a relatively small market, fairly spread out, and 1,000 miles from nowhere. So, the return on investment isn't all that promising. And, as you know, the mentality around here is never "build to fit." There could be a small diameter poly pipeline installed from the north slope to the interior in a summer by practically strapping it to the TAPS, but that wouldn't do. No, no.... we must have something grand that takes twenty years to plan, five years to build, and an eternity to maintain.

Now, they're talking about building a LNG plant on the slope and trucking gas to Fairbanks. :sick:

stever · December 2012

Just read where they are experimenting with solar hot water in Kotzebue, of all places. There's an idea, put a closed loop water pipe/heat exchanger around the outside of the pipeline under the insulation and loop it through downtown Fairbanks. The SeaLife Center in Seward is doing a heat exchanger with sea water to heat the aquariums.

Gas seems cheap but the radio said the Michigan average was just about the same this time last year. I'm betting holiday traffic will be up though for our drive south, because the price sure seems cheaper.

gagrice · January 2013

Notice these five men making sure your car is roadworthy with a gas fill-up. Gas was probably 25 cents a gallon at the time. You know they were making a profit even with all those people working for them. I think at the current pump your own $3.50 per gallon we're are getting screwed royal.

click on the picture:

hpmctorque · January 2013

Thanks for posting that.

fintail · January 2013

Many factors at play, from different tax policies to different tolerance of corporate shenanigans, to more motorists and different residential development patterns.

stever · January 2013

"Hamburger, health care and taxes are all set to take a bigger bite out of the family budget this year. But drivers' annual gas bills are expected to drop for the first time in four years.

Forecasters say ample oil supplies and weak U.S. demand will keep a lid on prices. The lows will be lower and the highs won't be so high compared with a year ago. The average price of a gallon of gasoline will fall 5 per cent to $3.44, according to the Energy Department."

After price spikes, gas could get cheaper in 2013, thanks to ample supplies, feeble US demand (Yahoo)

stever · January 2013

"How much does your fuel economy fall -- and how much does your fuel cost rise? -- if you drive at 60 m.p.h. rather than 50? How about 70 m.p.h.? 80?

Would you believe a 41% decrease in fuel economy from 50 m.p.h. to 80? That's like paying $1.38 more per gallon of gasoline, according to the U.S. Department of Energy's website Fueleconomy.gov.

There wasn't much correlation between decreasing fuel economy and the vehicles' frontal area and aerodynamic drag."

Mark Phelan: The faster you go, the less m.p.g. you get (Detroit News)

fintail · January 2013

I guess it is believable. 80 is 60% more than 50, so using 40% more fuel doesn't sound bad. In marginal terms, more efficient. Of course, probably a distinct minority of highways the US allow long term 80mph cruising anyway.

Here's my own anecdotal experiment, using a 2012 MB E350 with a 7 speed auto:

gagrice · January 2013

Those are not statistics you would want to wave in front of this lame administration. They would pull a Nixon on US and we would be back to 55 MPH on the highways. For those that time is meaningless it may be worthwhile to look at. If you travel 500 miles a day on a trip the difference would be more than 3 hours behind the wheel. I usually cruise 70-75 when it is posted 65 or 70 MPH. I checked a tank once staying right at 60 MPH from Phoenix to Yuma taking the old highway. My mileage did not improve even 1 MPG over my normal driving habits. Not worth the risk of falling asleep at that slow of a pace.

xwesx · January 2013

I have to agree with you on that. Plus, gearing plays a big role, so not every vehicle is going to see that 40% between 50 and 80.

Heck, at 55 mpg, my 1969 C20 gets 15 mpg. I never knew that, because I never went 55 for any appreciable length of time. Even traveling a 55 mph road at 60, I tended to get 12 mpg. At 65, I get 10.5-11. Above that, and it drops like a rock. So, over ten miles-per-hour, my fuel economy dropped 36 percent. I don't think there are many, if any, vehicles made today that would see that same impact between 55 and 65 mph.

I think the best answer is "know thy vehicle." The driver always needs to balance speed, safety, and time, so adding optimal (acceptable) fuel economy within those variables doesn't really add too much more complexity to the decision.

gagrice · February 2013

CHU is gone... Hopefully Obama does not pick a more zealous anti vehicle person for the job.

Chus departure had been widely expected and follows announcements by Interior Secretary Ken Salazar, Environmental Protection Agency chief Lisa Jackson and Jane Lubchenco, head of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, that they are leaving.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/energy-secretary-steven-chu-resigns/2013/- 02/01/9809fd8a-6c8f-11e2-8f4f-2abd96162ba8_story.html?wpisrc=al_politics_p

stever · February 2013

The WSJ list a bunch of reasons why.

"Problems with pipelines transporting crude around the nation have been the main driver of the 12% rise in U.S. crude futures over the last seven weeks. Crude is responsible for 68% of gasoline prices.

[A] sluggish economy and more fuel-efficient cars have put a lid on consumption."

Super storm Sandy lowered inventories.

"The Northeast gasoline shortage has squeezed the futures higher for the contract, which is used as a yardstick for gasoline prices across the nation."

xwesx · February 2013

Uh huh. Plus the guys that make tons of money on oil want to make their money on oil. The consumer will pay; oh, yes, they'll pay.

gagrice · February 2013

The discount gas stations are mostly charging $4.01 for RUG. I filled at Costco for $3.85. The lines were too long yesterday when it was $3.77. Diesel has not gone up much. $3.99 to $4.09 most places. A lot of our ARCO stations are now called USA Gasoline. Some ARCOs holding under $3.90.

gagrice · February 2013

I think they are trying to get Obama's attention on the Keystone Pipeline project. He is a slow learner. Or does not give a rip if gas prices are hurting the working folks.

stever · February 2013

One argument is that Keystone XL will divert crude from the Midwest to the Gulf. So my gas prices will catch up and pass yours. :sick:

But yeah, the election is over so POTUS can approve the rest of it now (the southern section was already given the okay) and not worry about losing the election.

berri · February 2013

I thought this Keystone pipeline stuff was OBE. As I understand it, the pipeline company changed the routing to satisfy aquifier concerns and Nebraska gave a thumbs up to Washington to proceed. The new pipeline will help clear out stockpiles in Oklahoma when completed, but I wouldn't count on it reducing gas prices here. The whole purpose of all of this is to reverse flow and allow oil into the gulf refineries which can then be exported. Remember, we're now talking about the US as a net energy exporter shortly. All this will really accomplish is making WTI oil similar in pricing to Brent crude.

I'd like to be able to fly a thermal sight over some of these refinery storage tanks. How much you want to bet they are pretty full right now? No, there couldn't be any possible manipulation going on???

andre1969 · February 2013

around these parts, at least if you want premium. My Ram takes 89, which is usually priced closer to Premium anyway, so I'll try not to let it get below half a tank, and alternate between 87 and 93 when I fill up.

Today was 87 day, so it was "only" $3.599 per gallon. I didn't notice if 93 was over $4/gal at this station, but I have seen it at others.

gagrice · February 2013

Filled the Sequoia first time since October. Costco fill price in 10/17/12 $4.39, price at Costco today $3.93. It spends most of the time in the garage with the old LS400.

hpmctorque · February 2013

"SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch)  Gasoline prices at the pump have climbed every day for the past 21 days  and theyre not going to let up anytime soon.

On Thursday, the average U.S. price for a gallon of regular gasoline stood at $3.555, making it the most expensive average ever for that day and the highest level since Oct. 26 of last year, according to AAA...."

slorenzen · February 2013

Filled the Sequoia first time since October

Do you put Stabil in the tank? I've heard the ethanol goes bad in about 6 weeks.

That could ruin your day...

xwesx · February 2013

I don't even watch it anymore. Nothing I can do about it, and I'm going to fill anyway, so no sense in getting worked up over it. :sick:

gagrice · February 2013

I have not put any additives. I did just put 20 gallons in a 25 gallon tank. So most is fresh. It does sit a lot so I may put some in. I hate our CA crap gas anyway. I will be making my trips to the desert very soon so it will get some running time.

slorenzen · February 2013

I have an F250 gasser I use as a "farm truck", and it only sees about 5-700 miles a year.

Fortunately, I can get 100% gas up here for that vehicle, so it lasts longer.

gagrice · February 2013

I think the only non ethanol gas you can buy is at the airport for small planes. Maybe down at the harbor as well. The sooner I get rid of our gas vehicles and go to diesel the better.

stever · February 2013

There's some near me; premium only but ethanol free. Not cheap though. Pure-gas.org has a list.

There's only 5 "pure gas" stations listed for California.

gagrice · February 2013

You got me curious so I tracked those five down up in Northern CA. The Northern Lights Energy are the distributors for Union 76 gas. The addresses are their tank farms. Renner seems to be a regional brand. Alaska is the only Free state in the Union. All stations sell REAL gas untainted with alcohol.

stever · February 2013

Hard to believe that the stations in Anchorage and Fairbanks don't have it for carbon monoxide reduction purposes. Surely they still aren't using MTBE? Is there a "cold start" exemption? Ah, sounds like Frank Murkowski may have killed it.

Fairbanks gets that nasty ice fog and they don't call the big city Los Anchorage for nothing. The state is even going after wood burners in Fairbanks. Where's Xwes?

gagrice · February 2013

Probably has to do with the high cost of shipping Ethanol to the state. Fairbanks does get pretty bad in the Winter with all the cars running. I never noticed it bad in Anchorage. Of course I lived at the top of Rabbit Creek Rd. most of the time. And then way up the Eagle River valley for only a couple years. MTBE was only a problem when stored in underground tanks if memory serves. It got into the ground water and killed everyone in the vicinity. :shades:

stever · February 2013

Gee, too bad all the Delta barley farms went bust; they could have switched to corn and supplied it locally. :shades:

gagrice · February 2013

season is too short for corn. That is why they grew barley. You can make alcohol from barley. But what a waste putting it in your gas tank.

stever · February 2013

The $100 million joke on the taxpayer was that you couldn't grow barley either. Not one of Jay Hammond's better ideas.

The latest blizzard (Nemo?) is bound to make gas prices jump even more. I knew I should have gassed up the other day.

gagrice · February 2013

All ours are full. Not much chance of a blizzard. Though we are getting hail as I am typing. Snow just 1000 feet higher than I am. Our gas is always high because everything in CA is more expensive. Except oranges and avocados.

xwesx · February 2013

Actually, you can grow barley, and pretty well at that, but the problem back in the 1980's is that they hadn't developed a strain of barley that was suited to the northern climate. Now, we have such a variety (Sunshine Barley), developed right here at UAF.

As with corn, it isn't that barley couldn't be grown here, it's that it couldn't be grown reliably from year to year. An additional issue with Delta is that the bison herds, which are of the plains variety, love open areas (as opposed to forest, which is what is native to the Delta area) and they love barley. So, you can see where this is going.... :P

Be that as it may, it would be a complete travesty to use any crop harvested in this state for something as inefficient as ethanol production. The growing season is short and food is a precious commodity.

We get poor enough fuel economy in the winter as it is, the last thing we need is another hit by including ethanol in the fuel. The "smog" we see here in the winter months is primarily due to the temperature inversions, which can be quite severe at times, holding all of the emissions down low to the ground. The vast majority of the contributing emissions are from space heating devices (boilers, stoves, etc). Automobiles used to be a prime source, but emissions from them are vastly cleaner than even as recent as fifteen years ago.

Fairbanks even ended its emissions testing program a few years ago, despite the ongoing winter air quality concerns.

gagrice · February 2013

Still a lot of people heating with wood and oil I would imagine. That is not the cleanest form of heat. With our atrocious propane price here I use a lot of wood. Of course that is not cheap this time of year. I bought in the Summer at about half the current going price.

xwesx · February 2013

Shoot, if I lived in that area, I'm not sure I would even heat!

Yes, there's a lot of wood burning. Fortunately, the price of oil has encouraged many (most?) folks to keep their heating appliances in top shape, so oil particulates are pretty low. Wood burners are probably the biggest contributor to the air quality problem because it is so easy to burn wood inefficiently, and it is still inexpensive enough that many folks aren't willing to put in the extra up-front investment to increase the burn quality. The same can be said for coal, I suppose, but there is very little coal use here except in the power plants, which are equipped for their fuel source.

We have limited access to gaseous fuels like propane or natural gas, and both are very expensive. There is some use, but it isn't wide spread outside of the city of Fairbanks.

gagrice · February 2013

I remember the propane bills in Eagle River during the winter. Easy $500 per month to heat our big log home. I use a high end Avalon insert in my fireplace here. It is pretty efficient and sealed to keep the particulates out of the house. I would imagine you have hot water baseboard heat. Which is so much better than our forced air furnaces. We have needed heat here since November. At noon today it is 45 degrees at my house. A full 20 degrees below normal. Of course the liars at the NWS will post their in the sun figures. Our home is well insulated which helps. We have used the heat more this year than AC. I think we turned on the AC maybe 10 days all summer long. Which was the coldest July ever recorded.

xwesx · February 2013

That's good for the summer... bad for the winter!

I installed an in-floor hydronic system rather than using hydronic baseboards, but it's the same idea... just better executed.

I love it! I can't believe it took me eight years to get it hooked up, dealing with cold floors every winter. Next time, the heating system is the first thing I finish. Heck, I don't even need plumbing or electric first. Give me that in-floor heat! We start heating around the beginning to middle of September, whenever the temperature in the house drops under 56F during the day. Night-time outdoor temperatures are generally with 5 degrees of freezing (+ OR -) by then. From there, we heat until May 1, at which point I shut the system down and the family just has to deal with cold spells if the outdoor weather doesn't cooperate.

Last year was my highest consumption winter, the first after which we had the boiler hydronic system installed for a full winter, and we used ~750 gallons of #1 heating oil (for 2400 square feet, which is really good this far north). This winter, based on current consumption, I expect to come in close to 600. We had a guy come out in late October and re-tune the unit, which has made an impressive difference.

I was hoping we would use ~400 a year when I first built the house, which would give us 2.5 years from our 1,000 gallon tank, but that just wasn't realistic for the size of the space. I'd have to dump a mint into additional insulation to get us close to that, and I just don't think it's worth the effort or the money.

How does gas at $4 and higher impact you?

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