Midsize Sedans 2.0

ahightower · January 2014

I will not be upset if Accord stays in 2nd place. It appears from there to be the "smart" choice, not the "obvious" choice, know what I mean?

brian125 · January 2014

Crky,

Toyota Camry has been at the top or fought for it every year since the 80's. A great run along with honda. I owned 2 Camry's when the kids were young and loved them. They have been slipping the past couple of years. The Accords have had trany problems a few years back and are well known for there non quite ride, very noisy a/c heater units. I guess the good outweighs some of the bad in these vehicles.

My 2013 Accord Exl V-6 is so much better than any accord I owned. Alot quieter than past models, very fast, good gas mileage. My only problem with this vehicle is the radio. Music sounds like its comming out of a tin can. Alpine stereo with foster speakers. Honda did a bad job of this along with the parking brake placed right in the middle of the console. Honda's top of the line model should have a upscale radio system in it and not the garbage they have in there now.

I'm sure toyota will be back soon with another all around great camry.

b25nut · January 2014

After our test drive of the 2014 Accord Hybrid, my wife is now insisting that her next car have the equivalent of Honda's Lane Watch, which is the camera in the right side mirror. It is really nice and leaves no doubt it is safe to change lanes. I just hope Ford adopts it so I can steer her to the 2016 Lincoln MKC Hybrid (which I hope they make).

benjaminh · January 2014

Dec. 2013 and yearly midsize sales
Accord 32,321; 366,678
Camry 29,964; 408,484
Altima 24,816; 320,723
Fusion 24,408 ; 295,280
Malibu 15,493 ; 200,594
Sonata 14,479; 203,648
Optima 9,474; 155,893
Passat 9,254 ; 109,652
200 5,652 ; 122,480
Avenger 4,950 ; 93,842
Mazda6 4,365; 33,756

Sandman6472 · January 2014

I know with my '06 Civic, I swapped out the speakers very early on while trying to improve the sound quality. After that, and I went with very good Boston Scientific ones, I added tweeters which didn't come on the LX model. Still not satisfied, I asked my stereo guy what is the next step here. He said either swap out the head unit or get an amp. Since I didn't want to mess with the dash, I wanted to keep the oem head unit, I added an amp, MXR or something like that and it did the trick. Amazing sound and power so I was a happy camper for years to follow. Last month, I decided to have the amp removed to possibly use in my new vehicle. We discussed also taking the speakers but they were the wrong size and the cost was just too much so I left them in the vehicle when traded.
The amp was installed in my Tuscon and it does help with the power and loudness but...the sound quality is just not what I am used to. The new store is supposed to be getting a new line of primo speakers in sometime this month that the owner/installer thinks would be just perfect for what I want to achieve. So, right now, I am still deciding my next move here. He said it won't be cheap and if I wanted to spend less then replacing the head unit might be the way to go but I like that it has the bluetooth integration and I hate to screw up my factory warranty. So the logical option here is to go in and listen to the speakers I could purchase and go from there. I have a price point in my mind that I won't go above so I will have to hear the quality of sound and decide after that. If the quality is that good, I might just have to expand the budget a bit to get exactly what I want...I want to be happy hear as I always have the music going. But there is a price point that I will not go above here so first, I need to see what is available. Figure I'll go in at months end and see...he will need the vehicle for most of the day again so I have to get there early and get driven home and then picked up later in the day. This will also mean a missed day of work so all must be planned out according to my schedule as he said he's pretty flexible on this.
Time will tell here but one thing I know...I need to improve the sound quality as I have the power part of the equation solved. now, onto the sound quality!

The Sandman

explorerx4 · January 2014

@brian125, I wonder if the Accord uses the same speakers for audio and active noise control?

akirby · January 2014

@b25nut said:
After our test drive of the 2014 Accord Hybrid, my wife is now insisting that her next car have the equivalent of Honda's Lane Watch, which is the camera in the right side mirror. It is really nice and leaves no doubt it is safe to change lanes. I just hope Ford adopts it so I can steer her to the 2016 Lincoln MKC Hybrid (which I hope they make).

Ford already offers BLIS which gives you an orange light in the side mirror when traffic is present. A camera seems like overkill and unnecessary.

crkyolfrt · January 2014

@akirby said:
Ford already offers BLIS which gives you an orange light in the side mirror when traffic is present. A camera seems like overkill and unnecessary.

Not sure how you can suggest that a light is better than a camera. One gives you perspective, the other.. none at all..plus so many other variables..The light could be misconstrued as a sun reflection, or a piece of ice or snow or salt spray could be right where that light is etc etc..

Mr_Shiftright · January 2014

I could see a problem with this feature as well. If you are relying solely on the camera, then you aren't looking at the rear view mirror, and you may change lanes at the same time as the car behind you and you'll never see them in time. I don't think this device promotes 360 awareness, in the same way that you can easily still run over someone or something while glued to a rear-view camera. (such as a pedestrian walking across the back of your car). Trying walking down the street while holding a camera to your eye, to give you an exaggerated example of what I mean.

@crkyolfrt said:
Not sure how you can suggest that a light is better than a camera. One gives you perspective, the other.. none at all..plus so many other variables..The light could be misconstrued as a sun reflection, or a piece of ice or snow or salt spray could be right where that light is etc etc..

crkyolfrt · January 2014

@MrShift@Edmunds said:
I could see a problem with this feature as well. If you are relying solely on the camera, then you aren't looking at the rear view mirror, and you may change lanes at the same time as the car behind you and you'll never see them in time. I don't think this device promotes 360 awareness, in the same way that you can easily still run over someone or something while glued to a rear-view camera. (such as a pedestrian walking across the back of your car). Trying walking down the street while holding a camera to your eye, to give you an exaggerated example of what I mean.

I think it shows more than one lane, no? Plus I think there are audible nannies that go with it..
Anyway, as you know, I'm not a big fan of many of these nannies..too much computer processing at work, and we all know how a computer can crash on ya at the worst time. But I do like the idea of a backup camera that can show (and warn) of a little kid or pet directly behind you.

And aside from computer crashes..there is of course the potential complacency issues.

akirby · January 2014

You have to look at and interpret what you see in the camera while with the light (it's a pencil eraser sized dot that doesn't get confused with ice or a reflection) it's a simple quick glance or you see it with your peripheral vision.

suydam · January 2014

I really love the camera and found it particularly helpful on busy freeways. You don't stop using the rear view mirror altogether by the way. I'm sure more vehicles will start adopting it.

akirby · January 2014

It's still faster and easier to check for an orange light than it is to focus on a small camera picture. Cameras are great for backing up but it doesn't make a lot of sense for blind spot detection where all you need is a go/no go indication.

ivan_99 · January 2014

@akirby said:
It's still faster and easier to check for an orange light than it is to focus on a small camera picture. Cameras are great for backing up but it doesn't make a lot of sense for blind spot detection where all you need is a go/no go indication.

I just look in the mirror and turn my head...

[Deleted User] · January 2014

Dreadful morning.

1) It was 4 degrees this morning in a city that is not used to it. (first time in 20 years that it was this low). I noticed the electronics in the car were very slow to respond. Transmission was slow to shift until warm up, and the EPS stuck a little (known Optima EPS issue).

2) My window washer fluid would not spray. It is frozen in the lines right at the nozzles. They do cold weather testing on these cars...don't they???
3) I found a couple big scrapes in the paint where I tried to scrape ice off the car. Nice job bone head. I am ordering an electric buffer on E-Bay right now.

4) Had a vet appointment for the new family cat. He went nuts in the carrier, escaped from it; then climbed all over me with his claws while I was driving. For 20 miles. On the highway with no shoulder-(converted to an HOV lane during rush hour(s). Awful.

5) Still have to go back and pick up the cat during evening rush. This time I am bringing a bigger carrier so he can't get out and claw me to death while driving.

akirby · January 2014

What could the mfr do to prevent washer nozzles from freezing in 4 degree weather? I don't get it.

ab348 · January 2014

Well, some cars have heated washer nozzles. With all the geegaws H-K loads up their vehicles with, many of which seem rather useless, I would have thought this might actually be a useful addition.

In truth, if you had to scrape ice off the car, the washers probably have ice on the outside of them too and that may be what is keeping them from working properly. If it was filled it with proper washer fluid, that doesn't freeze until -35 or so, so it's unlikely that it is what is frozen. However, some places use a summer "bug wash" fluid that does freeze. Useless stuff.

Too bad about the cat. I have several, and they all hate going to the vet and being put in carriers. I have one cat in particular who is very adept at breaking out of the carriers. He figured out how to defeat the zipper that closes the soft-sided carrier, and also somehow gets the door open on one of my hard shell carriers. I now put him in a dog-sized carrier which seems to be too much for him. However, in the past when he escaped while in the car he did a number on the leather upholstery with his claws as he was climbing out of the carrier. No serious damage but you could see it if you knew where to look. I grew up with cats and most of them hated the car.

crkyolfrt · January 2014

@cski said:
Dreadful morning.

Sorry to hear of your tough start today..but hey..better the kitty claw you than your interior, lol

As for the freezing nozzles...this isn't likely to be a design defect. I find this happens if I haven't squirted recently. The sun evaporates the alcohol that is nearest the exit. The one that freezes more often I find is my rear hatch washer cuz it gets used even less. I have the habit now to squirt at least once a week. Since they are always black, they attract even more heat. The cure is to do a squirt more often to bring fresher fluid up to the nozzles. Now if you have had the same fluid in there all summer, consider syphoning out and using next summer and putting new stuff in that will have more alcohol in it. It also evaporates through that little vent hole in the fill cap.

You might get lucky and the freeze may be right at the nozzle and you can warm it enough between your fingers if it protrudes enough. Or get a cup of hot water..

Mr_Shiftright · January 2014

@suydam said:
I really love the camera and found it particularly helpful on busy freeways. You don't stop using the rear view mirror altogether by the way. I'm sure more vehicles will start adopting it.

I can't help thinking that camera is an overkill solution---like cutting butter with a chainsaw. it DOES do the job, but.......:)

dudleyr · January 2014

@akirby said:
It's still faster and easier to check for an orange light than it is to focus on a small camera picture. Cameras are great for backing up but it doesn't make a lot of sense for blind spot detection where all you need is a go/no go indication.

Actually the picture is quite large and takes no longer to focus on and interpret than looking in the rear view mirror on turning around. The field of vision is extremely wide and the camera is very good in low light conditions making vehicles very easy to see that may only look like shadows otherwise.

An excellent tool that adds to (but does not replace) your other mirrors etc.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2014

@dudleyr said:
An excellent tool that adds to (but does not replace) your other mirrors etc.

Well if my new car came with it, I'd use it, but I wouldn't pay for an extra option package just to have it.

akirby · January 2014

@dudleyr said:
An excellent tool that adds to (but does not replace) your other mirrors etc.

Wait - it's only on the passenger side? What about the driver's side? And it only works when the turn signal is on or the lever is pressed? Sorry, but Ford's BLIS works much better since it's always on and works on both sides of the vehicle.

b25nut · January 2014

Akirby, I agree with most of your posts but you're being a little over-critical of something you haven't even experienced yet. Since the LW only appears when you use the right turn signal, drivers will still first use their mirrors to see if the lane is clear. LW then acts as a very clear and easy to see confirmation of this fact. The center screen is not being used for any other function to help the driver during this time, so why not have the image there? You don't even have to turn your head to see it.
I have my mirrors set in my FFH so that I have no blind spots. The only time I turn my head more than 5 degrees is when I make a U-turn. BLIS would not have warned me of anything that I didn't already know was there. BLIS is a good system, but a little amber light would not prevent my wife from changing lanes. I've given up trying to have her adjust her side mirrors to cover the blind spots. Her side mirrors basically just give her the same view she has with the center mirror. She relies on looking over her shoulder, but as she gets more mature, this has become more difficult. That is why she fell in love with Lane Watch.

brian125 · January 2014

dudleyr , b25nut

Your assessement is right on with honda's outside mirror. I find when ever you make a right turn or move right instinct makes you look right and with that big view in the mirror shows the whole side of the car and the lane near it. Great feature just as effective as a orange indicator if not better. This is honda best feature on this new Accord. The lane watch is a useless feature with city driving and the Forward crash needs to be improved to be worth anything.

My son called me today telling me his washer fluid had frozen in his car. After talking with him he thinks his wife bought the washer fluid in one of those dollar stores here in NY. I think he found his answer why?

suydam · January 2014

It was below zero today and my windshield washer worked fine. But I didn't have the car sitting outside overnight.
Honda doesn't have a left turn camera because it is using the center screen. A left turn would have you looking the opposite way. A right turn your eyes naturally sweep by the center screen. In addition to lane changes, it is especially helpful with bicycles coming up alongside at stop lights.
I think this is a feature that you have to experience to appreciate. Like a backup camera, which I now really really like.

akirby · January 2014

I'm not saying it's bad, but how is it better than BLIS when BLIS works on both sides of the vehicle and it's built into the outside mirrors where you'd be looking anyway. BLIS also works all the time whether the turn signal is on or not. I use it to ensure I'm clear before I even turn on my blinker to change lanes. Maybe you need to experience BLIS to appreciate it.

b25nut · January 2014

Edmunds just released this Hybrid showdown: Camry - Accord - Fusion- Jetta

http://www.edmunds.com/ford/fusion-hybrid/2013/comparison-test.html?SID=1dkva9w5t6s5o&kw=flexibletexttool&PID=6150294&AID=10364102&mktid=cj260233&mktcat=affiliates

crkyolfrt · January 2014

@akirby said:
I'm not saying it's bad, but how is it better than BLIS when BLIS works on both sides of the vehicle and it's built into the outside mirrors where you'd be looking anyway. BLIS also works all the time whether the turn signal is on or not. I use it to ensure I'm clear before I even turn on my blinker to change lanes. Maybe you need to experience BLIS to appreciate it.

If the things are constantly flashing left and right in my peripheral when in multi-lane traffic, who needs these things flashing basically constantly as vehicles pass you on the left and right? If they're doing that, then you would also become desensitized to them when you were making a lane change.

If they are well designed, then maybe they have the ability to be proactive with the signal lever and if it is activated, maybe they reduce the trigger distance. That could be useful if they have the parameters set right.

I stand by my statement that if a piece of snow or ice or salt spray is ON TOP of the pencil-sized yellow LED, then you can't see it!

stickguy · January 2014

well, based on my experience with the back up camera, the snow/ice/salt spray is going to also cover up the lens on the mirror lens making the feature useless.

maybe just me, but I don't want to be looking down at the dashboard too when I am already looking at the road and 2 mirrors. I actually like the symbol idea. You still need to use the mirrors, but it is a little "extra" in case you missed something.

the other problem with the camera is the fact that (based on my scientific analysis "on the road") is that more than 50% of people don't know what the lever on the left of the steering wheel is for.

b25nut · January 2014

Lane Watch would give my wife the incentive she needs to use her turn signal since she would experience a benefit from doing so. Many people have the "what's in it for me" attitude that keeps them from signaling their intentions.

akirby · January 2014

You don't get desensitized - it's not distracting. Besides all the other points you can't argue with the fact that Lane Watch only works on one side of the vehicle. It doesn't work at all on the left side and I change lanes to my left just as much as to my right.

stickguy · January 2014

I always thought that losing a car in your blindspot was much more likely on your right. Just easier to see what is on your side of the car.

but, don't worry. Won't be long before the march toward the autonomous car brings about a car that won't change lanes if it thinks another car is over there. Next logical step to automatic braking.

[Deleted User] · January 2014

@akirby said:
What could the mfr do to prevent washer nozzles from freezing in 4 degree weather? I don't get it.

I don't get what you don't get. The washer fluid would not spray, in weather where I need it the most. They worked the day before, and it didn't rain or snow over night, and the fluid in the car was just topped up at the dealer. How is it not the manufacturers fault that I can't spray off my windows? Is it mine? They do sell Optima's in Canada right? Do they just carry a bottle of Windex with them and lean out the window? Should I? Does this happen to all cars in the cold?

We don't get this kind of weather here often, so I have never owned a car (ever) that has had the washer fluid nozzles freeze. Both of them were frozen too. After the car sat in the sun for an hour they worked fine.

[Deleted User] · January 2014

@crkyolfrt said:
You might get lucky and the freeze may be right at the nozzle and you can warm it enough between your fingers if it protrudes enough. Or get a cup of hot water..

Sorry I didn't see your response, and thanks for the info. As I was just explaining to akirby it does not hard freeze here often. I just drove into DC and the Potomac is frozen all the way across between the key and the Memorial bridge. Wow.

Also, thanks abe348 for the info. I think crkyolfrt nailed it that the alcohol evaporated out of the very top of the fluid at the nozzle and it froze.

On the issue of lane keeper systems and passenger side cameras; it is never overkill if the systems stop a senseless accident from occurring. But it depends on where you live too. If I lived in the country then I would most likely not need it, but with the way my car is designed it has a very thick, sports car style C pillar design, and I can only look so many times before I have to make a move. Not a week goes by where I find a car in my blind spot. It is heavily congested here, and people drive Winston-Cup style, as if it is a reward for slogging through traffic all of the time.

I have the 2012 Optima and I had to add an expensive technology pack in order to even get a back-up camera. Now I really wish I had it, especially when there is precious cargo aboard (Kids).

Sandman6472 · January 2014

Love the backup camera in my new Tuscon, it gives an added level of security I never had before. Eventually this feature will find it's way down into the compact and subcompact classes as it is very useful. I wish it had that lane departure technology to but again, that'll also trickle down the food chain within a few years. Great safety features eventually get universally acceptance and wind up on all classes of vehicle. I think insurance rates should go down on vehicles equipped with additional safety features. maybe one day it'll become reality!

The Sandman

akirby · January 2014

So how does the mfr control whether the alcohol evaporates from the end of the nozzles? Or whether you're using washer fluid with antifreeze at all? If the car doesn't have heated washers then it's up to you to make sure they don't freeze, not the mfr.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2014

@akirby said:
Wait - it's only on the passenger side? What about the driver's side? And it only works when the turn signal is on or the lever is pressed? Sorry, but Ford's BLIS works much better since it's always on and works on both sides of the vehicle.

The Honda system works either way---default is to work when the right directional is pressed, but you can set it to be on all the time. I'm not sure that option would be chosen often, since you need that screen for other things.

akirby · January 2014

But it still only works on the passenger side, not the driver's side. Other blind spot systems work on both sides and they work automatically all the time without looking at and interpreting a picture with lines on it.

b25nut · January 2014

Akirby, I'm not implying that Ford should replace BLIS with Lane Watch. It should be an added option. As Suydam stated, LW won't work for the left side. The view you get in the center screen doesn't take interpretation. Your mind reacts immediately to it. What did you mean by "a picture with lines on it"? That is what you get with the Rear View camera, not Lane Watch.

dudleyr · January 2014

@akirby said:
But it still only works on the passenger side, not the driver's side. Other blind spot systems work on both sides and they work automatically all the time without looking at and interpreting a picture with lines on it.

There is no interpreting necessary. It is just an image like your rear view mirror but larger and wider angle.

akirby · January 2014

You have to compare the vehicle to the lines on the screen. That takes at least a second to focus on the screen and see the vehicle and the lines. You can glance at the side mirror and see an orange dot in milliseconds. But again that's not the biggest issue. The biggest issue is that it doesn't work on the left side at all.

crkyolfrt · January 2014

@akirby said:
You have to compare the vehicle to the lines on the screen. That takes at least a second to focus on the screen and see the vehicle and the lines. You can glance at the side mirror and see an orange dot in milliseconds. But again that's not the biggest issue. The biggest issue is that it doesn't work on the left side at all.

No! The BIGGEST issue is the expectation of an orange dot saying it is ok, when in fact if there is something IN FRONT of the orange dot, then you CAN'T SEE IT!! I'm sure I'm not the only one here noticing that you keep ignoring addressing this valid point.

I know, I know...Ford can do NO wrong. They are the be-all-end-all to everything 4 wheels..

(not)

explorerx4 · January 2014

My wife's Escape has BLIS, which is useful, but I wish the right side prompt(orange light) was more obvious.
I also have experience with Lane Watch.
Lane Watch takes over the top center screen and gives you a nice picture, but it takes your eyes away from everything else.
If you need to know exactly what is to your right, Lane Watch give you the most information.
If you just want to know something is to your right BLIS works for that.
BLIS also prompts you the same way on the left.

akirby · January 2014

My mirrors have never ever been blocked by anything. And anything that could block your mirror could just as easily block the LW camera too. And it has nothing to do with Ford or Honda - just common sense.

crkyolfrt · January 2014

@akirby said:
My mirrors have never ever been blocked by anything. And anything that could block your mirror could just as easily block the LW camera too. And it has nothing to do with Ford or Honda - just common sense.

Aren't some of these lane watch cameras actually 'inside' the car now? Around the central rear view mirror it sell? The idea being that a camera at the rear restricts peripheral up the sides the car. Surely cameras that are place on the outside of the vehicle should have some means to squirt clear their lenses. Not everyone lives in CA and FL.

But there is another dynamic to obstructions in front of a camera lens, vs an LED light bulb. You can take some dirt, that is almost covering all of that pencil sized light, and take the same debris covering a lens. If there is basically 'any' part of the lens with a bit of view, you still get a muddy picture. Not so with a tiny light that's 4 to 5' away.

And you still didn't address these lights flashing on and off all the time on both sides of the car when you are simply in heavy multilane traffic with no intention of changing lanes. Can they be turned off? Unlikely. If they are bright enough to draw attention in the daytime, they must be damn distracting at night even if they have a dim feature built in to the lighting circuit.

stickguy · January 2014

the cameras for the side are in the mirrors. the one up by the inside rear view mirror is for forward looking.

and none of those cameras clean themselves. and once they get some grime on them, the view is terrible. especially if there is any rain. At least based on my back up camera in the Acura!

brian125 · January 2014

Fords light system is a nice feature on both sides . you stll have to turn your head plus you cant see anything pre turning your head. With hondas side camera if you look at the mirror first you see the right side of the car and the lane off to the side and behind the vehicle.
the right side guide is a homerun in my 47 years of driven.
i drove from NY to Boston with the lane watch on half the trip. This new system is by far one of the best new features to see whats near and around you at all times. Without turning your head.

I think the scary thing about the right side lane watch is people may get so comfortable not turning there head and just using the mirror as there turning guide.

I have the pleasure of using this lane watch for the past 9 months. If you have the opportunity to get this feature in one of your vehicles you wont be disappointed.

akirby · January 2014

It's not distracting at all even in heavy traffic. And my mirrors are never obstructed. The only real complaint i have with LW is that it doesn't work on both sides of the vehicle. And I use BLIS on the left side just as much as I use it on the right side.

ahightower · January 2014

Well. Fascinating as the blind spot debate has been, let me throw out something new. Just saw the press release for the Passat Sport.
http://www.autoblog.com/2014/01/09/2014-vw-passat-sport-26475-pricing

Let's discuss Accord Sport vs Passat Sport. My observations:

-Accord is almost $3K cheaper.

-Passat has leather(ette?) to Accord's cloth (if leatherette, I'd prefer cloth, and the Sport's cloth is an upgrade from the LX/EX cloth (which was also upgraded for MY 2014 although I haven't seen it in person yet)).

-Passat 170 hp, 184 lb/ft. Accord 189 hp, 182 lb/ft.

-Accord manual is 6-speeds to Passat's 5-spd, and universally considered among the best MT available.

-Accord Sport does have a few extra hp vs LX/EX, due to upgraded exhaust. And it has a tightened suspension. While certainly no "sports car", it's more deserving of the Sport appelation than the Passat which appears to be entirely cosmetic touches.

-Both are sadly lacking in color choices (gray, white, or silver for Passat SPort, whereas Accord Sport can be any color unless you want the MT, in which case it's either gray or black.)

-IMHO, the Passat needed that 250 hp they teased to be compelling at this price. Or else, the Accord Sport is just a super bargain.

What other features and specs has the Passat to justify its premium?

stickguy · January 2014

It's German?

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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