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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited January 2014

    @ahightower said:
    EX-L Navi manual - you really do have something of a unicorn there!

    It's a weird one. And it might hurt my trade in value? Don't know. The salesman thought I was mad to order it, but eventually he gave in. I'm glad I got the exact car I wanted.

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311

    ahightower: By any chance do you have the manual Sport? If so, any comments on the transmission and clutch? I've driven my brother-in-law's 2012 Civic Si 6 mt, and it was smooooth, but took some getting used to.

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • brian125brian125 Member Posts: 5,244
    edited January 2014

    a hightower,

    One would expect the EX to be better equipped for more money. One has to draw the line somewhere. The LX really does have everything necessary, and more. Power everything, bluetooth, backup camera. Those are the essentials, so it seems. A solid package for a very good price. But what sold me on the Sport were its upgrades vs the LX, for not a whole lot of money ($1720): -dual exhaust (good for 4 whole hp, woot) -18-inch wheels (good design, nice stance) -leather-wrapped steering wheel and shift knob (who wants to grab a plastic steering wheel every day? EX does not have this.) -upgraded cloth upholstery (vs LX and EX) -10-way power adjustment (incl lumbar - HUGE for me, EX does not have this either, you have to go EX-L) -decklid spoiler (purely cosmetic, but what can I say, I haven't given up on trying to look cool yet...) -fog lights (not that I really need them, just that I absolutely despise blanks where fog lights are supposed to go, advertising that I got the "cheap" one) -sport suspension

    I agree what you said about the Accord and its looks. For me the EXL V-6 was the clear choice and the best bang for my buck. I enjoy that extra power from the V-6, the leather , lights and all the little extra's that make this accord special. My neighbor has the The 4cyl with smaller tires and one exhaust, basic lights. Its like night and day in the looks dept. When you see the V-6 exl on the road it is a sharp vehicle.

    Upgrading from the LX, to the...... Sport model or the EX, is a must in the looks dept. Dont get caught looking like granny in this new accord.....LOL

    23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE

  • ahightowerahightower Member Posts: 539

    Best MT I've ever driven. Smooth shifter, clutch is easy but not too light. I agree it took some getting used to, but I only stalled twice in the first few hundred miles and never since. I think I was taking full advantage of all the new leg room vs my last car and getting using to the driving position. And the gearing is different than what I was used to (pretty short 1st, and 4-5 is rather close so I often just wind out 4th and skip to 6th). But after a short time it feels very natural. Creeping in traffic is no problem. All the praise for Honda manual transmissions in the enthusiast mags is true. I almost bought a Civic or Fit back in '08 because their MT was so nice, but the deal I got on the Mazda3 was too good to pass up. And that Mazda was also a good transmission, really a good car overall. Traded it in with 90K and no issues, just wanted to upgrade really. But the Honda MT is better. The hill-holding feature is also very nice. Not necessary, because of course I am an expert ;) driver, but very convenient when there is a texter right on your bumper...

    @benjaminh said:
    ahightower: By any chance do you have the manual Sport? If so, any comments on the transmission and clutch? I've driven my brother-in-law's 2012 Civic Si 6 mt, and it was smooooth, but took some getting used to.

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311

    ahightower: Thanks for the report. But darn, now you're making me want one!++

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,253

    @dudleyr said:
    What major tuneup? The only tuneup I did on my 2007 was replace the irridium plugs at 130k (and they still looked almost new). 170k miles right now and the only non maintenance item was an o2 sensor at 120k miles. Front brakes are still original as is the clutch. If you really like the top end stick you may need to keep it a while as they are getting rare.

    Didn't the timing belt need to be changed? Maybe that was a particular engine.
    My '02 Explorer has 138k and other than the air filter, the PCV (<$20) is the only thing touched on the engine. Other parts of it, that's another story. :p

    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited January 2014

    explorerx4:
    My 2002 Accord I-4 had a timing belt. I traded it in right before that needed to be done. By the time my 2008 Accord was built, however, they'd switched to timing chains, which are supposed to last the life of the engine iirc. And so maybe the 100k "major" service isn't so major after all.

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062

    You should never leave the spark plugs in place for more than 100k (80k on aluminum heads). Even if you don't need to replace them you should remove and replace them so they don't get welded to the head and break off.

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,253

    @akirby said:
    You should never leave the spark plugs in place for more than 100k (80k on aluminum heads). Even if you don't need to replace them you should remove and replace them so they don't get welded to the head and break off.

    How about years? The spark plugs in my Mustang were replaced last year. It's a 1991. :o

    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited January 2014

    We've commented on this before, but what a difference a few years make. Back in 2011 and 2012, the Hyundai Sonata was one of the first Hyundais to sell without huge discounts and rebates for the most part. But now, in 2014, the new Fusion, new Accord, new Altima, new Mazda6, etc., have kicked the heck out of the Sonata's prices in my area. Take a look at this discount in my area: $4400 off msrp on a nicely equipped leftover 2013 Sonata. It's a lot of car for the money, and really pretty close to the price of a Civic or even Elantra. The optional paint color and interior look pretty good imho, if you want to take a look:

    MSRP $23,280
    Savings $4,399
    Oxmoor Hyundai Price $18,881

    Color:Shimmering White Mica
    Interior:Camel w/Premium Cloth Seating Surfaces
    Stock#:H6110
    Engine:2.4L 4 cyls

    http://oxmoor-hyundai.calls.net/New-2013-Hyundai-Sonata-GLS-Louisville-KY/vd/14584641

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited January 2014

    Actually, looking at today's newspaper in Louisville, some other midsize cars are available for similar prices. As you folks know, I'm a loyal Honda guy, but there are some great deals out there, for instance: 2014 Toyota Camry for $18,890 (w/$500 loyalty), 2014 Altima 2.5S $18,850, etc. I'd still pay c. $2000 more and get an Accord, but....

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited January 2014

    Wow, so much to comment on. I agree with ahightower on the sun/moon roof. I need the headroom. As a bonus my car is 150 lbs lighter, and there is no chance of potential leaks and squeaks over time.

    I still like the Accord Sport, despite what the EX has to offer. The wheels and exhaust plus fog lights is the look that I like, but you do get only 4 speakers in the stereo. However, it is listed as having 160 watts, which is good. Also, the 10 way drivers seat (listed here @Edmunds as an 8 way) and the leather steering wheel and shift knob is also important to me as I will be touching them very frequently.

    There was a time when a sports car, or sport package, was actually a more bare-bones car that was a hoot to drive on weekends and track days. Now "sport" is affixed to almost every car in some way. Things like "sport shift mode" on an automatic is simply the manual operation of the same automatic trans gears that are in the rest of the lineup. My moms 83' Plymouth Reliant Wagon had "sport shift" then (D, 2,1).

    I like the Accord Sports black cloth seats too. Very grippy and great looking in black.

    The rear vents, push button start, turn signals in the mirrors, all can be added on later. My choice is still absolutely the Accord Sport. The white one that I see all the time in my neighborhood always makes me look back at it and stare, and I can only imagine that owning one like it would produce the same effect in spades.

  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062

    @explorerx4 said:

    Ok - 100K miles or 7 years. You're lucky that's not an aluminum head or you'd probably be replacing the entire head just to get the plugs out!

  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469

    @ahightower said:

    -10-way power adjustment (incl lumbar - HUGE for me, EX does not have this either, you have to go EX-L)

    EX does have 10 way power with lumbar.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited January 2014

    I just looked at both the 2013 Sport M/T and the 2013 EX M/T. Both have 8 way adjustable power seats. Only the EX is listed with lumbar support. My source was right here in Edmund's.

    On the 2014 specs it lists both cars as having lumbar support. I think the 2013 specs may be a listing error with Edmund's. Does anyone have a 2013 Sport with power lumbar? How bout an EX?

    Now, I just went over to Honda's site, and compared both cars with both transmissions, and Honda says that all 4 have 10 way power seats with power lumbar. Honda also listed all 4 variants as having manual transmissions, so even Honda is confused about what car comes with what. I guess you get a bonus M/T in case your CVT explodes, which is what we all have feared in the first place.

    Here is the URL: http://automobiles.honda.com/tools/compare-trims/results.aspx#modelname=Accord Sedan&modelyear=2014&compmodel1=CR2E5EEW&compmodel2=CR2E7EJW&compmodel3=CR2F7EJW&compmodel4=CR2F5EEW

  • garythesnailgarythesnail Member Posts: 7

    @m6user said:
    garythesnail
    Usually when adding quotes one references the source. Where did you read read this? I was at my Mazda dealer yesterday and they said pretty much nothing was changing on the 6 for the 2015 model year. I was just in for service and shooting the bull with the service manager so it wasn't some salesman trying to sell the 2014 model. But it wouldn't be the first time a dealer was just not up to speed on the latest and greatest. But if you're source is right and it doesn't arrive until early 2015, it would probably be a 2016 model. Tks.

    Automotive News (www.autonews.com)

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited January 2014

    Only a few of the players are really satisfied with their place in the midsize market. Even Toyota, according to an article in Auto News today, wants its forever boring and mediocre Camry to be more interesting. Nissan is said to be let down with the performance in the market of the Altima, which they once thought might go to #1 or 2, but which now seems stuck between 3rd and 4th place, and has had some quality issues. The Sonata, after riding high in 2011 and 2012, apparently saw its sales to rental fleets soar 40% last year, and discounts are heavy. Maybe this is one reason why the former head of Hyundai USA, John Krafchek, isn't there anymore? Don't know. VW has been bitterly let down by the weak sales of the Passat, which meant laying off 500 workers at its new factory in TN, and even laying off the head of VW of America.

    I think the only players who feel happy with their position in the midsize market right now are: Honda, which is staying at a strong #2 (and even outsold the Camry last month) without huge discounts; Ford, which saw sales of the Fusion jump 22% last year and has started production in the US; and Mazda, which is getting rave reviews for its Mazda6 and sold a whopping 200% more in December than a year ago (which was still only 4,365 cars).

    At this point the players can make more of these cars than people in the US can buy, which is leading to intense competition over features, price, and financing. And so, it's a buyer's market.

    For reference, here are the sales numbers again from last month:

    1. Accord 32,321
    2. Camry 29,964
    3. Altima 24,816
    4. Fusion 24,408
    5. Malibu 15,493
    6. Sonata 14,479
    7. Optima 9,474
    8. Passat 9,254
    9. 200 5,652
    10. Avenger 4,950
    11. Mazda6 4,365

    My predictions for 2014: Fusion will pass Altima and become the #3 selling midsize car. Accord will get close to the Camry but won't quite pass it, since Honda won't play the "0%+ 2000 rebate" game. The Mazda6, I think, might pass the Dodge Avenger, but that's not saying much.

    Maybe Honda is the only one selling close to capacity at this point. I think they can make about 33,000 Accords a month for the US market, and that's almost what they sold. Iirc, Toyota can make up to 40,000 Camrys a month, and so they are already way under what they can do. I believe Ford and Nissan have about the same capacity as Honda, and so they are selling about 8000 fewer midsize cars a month than they are able to make....

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited January 2014

    from Auto News:

    Toyota readies remix of Camry with 'waku-doki'

    Alan Ohnsman
    January 17, 2014 - 10:38 am ET
    DETROIT (Bloomberg) -- Toyota Motor Corp. has a challenge: How to heed President Akio Toyoda's insistence on heart-racing design for the next Camry and Prius models without jeopardizing their mass-market appeal.

    Getting it wrong risks knocking Camry from its perch as the best-selling U.S. car, a title held for 12 consecutive years, and seeing Prius, which sells more than 200,000 units annually in the U.S., eclipsed by newer hybrid vehicles. While next-generation versions of both cars are in the works, Toyota executives haven't provided many details.

    The aim for the next Camry is a "more emotional, more impactful design," Kevin Hunter, head of Toyota's U.S. design studio, said in an interview at the Detroit auto show this week. "Camry's taken some hits on styling, but it's still selling well. But we need to create better design for Camry in the future."

    Toyoda, grandson of the company's founder, is pushing an overhaul of vehicles with an emphasis on "waku-doki" design, shorthand for the Japanese phrase for heart-racing qualities. That would break from the current styling of the Camry and Prius, which together accounted for about a third of the company's U.S. sales volume last year....

    Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20140117/OEM03/140119700/toyota-readies-remix-of-camry-with-waku-doki#ixzz2qhQHcMaX
    Follow us: @Automotive_News on Twitter | AutoNews on Facebook

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 19,029
    edited January 2014

    I have heard that Mazda is hugely disappointed with sales of the new 6. From those numbers, I can see why. An early refresh is due next year I hear.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311

    ab348: Really? I didn't know that....If you find any links to articles, I'd like to see what Mazda's plans are for the 6. It's really the only car beyond the Accord that tempts me at this point.

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • brian125brian125 Member Posts: 5,244

    The 2014 mazda 6 has been redesigned. The reviews on edmunds are pretty good. The only thing i dont like is No 6cyl.. Unless i misread the reviews wrong.

    23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE

  • brian125brian125 Member Posts: 5,244

    The Accord is still the best buy in this midsize lot.

    23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE

  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 19,029

    @benjaminh said:
    ab348: Really? I didn't know that....If you find any links to articles, I'd like to see what Mazda's plans are for the 6. It's really the only car beyond the Accord that tempts me at this point.

    This is from Automotive News:

    "Mazda6: Despite getting redesigned for the 2014 model year, a re-engineered Mazda6 is scheduled to arrive in late 2014 or early 2015 with a new interior and updated front fascia.

    Since the debut this year, the redesigned Mazda6's interior has been criticized by some as bland. Sources say the new interior will include new gauges, instrument clusters, materials, center stack design and seating surfaces, as well as a version of the connectivity and infotainment system in the upcoming Mazda3. The new interior's overall aesthetic will be similar to that of the 2014 Mazda3, but more refined to help the mid-sized sedan keep its place atop the hierarchy of Mazda's cars.

    A 2.2-liter turbodiesel will be added to the powertrain lineup this year. Sources say that a hybrid powertrain is under study."

    Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20130826/OEM04/308269968/mazda6-cx-5-to-get-earlier-updates#ixzz2qhswxe8f
    Follow us: @Automotive_News on Twitter | AutoNews on Facebook

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • @benjaminh said:

    My predictions for 2014: Fusion will pass Altima and become the #3 selling midsize car. Accord will get close to the Camry but won't quite pass it, since Honda won't play the "0%+ 2000 rebate" game. The Mazda6, I think, might pass the Dodge Avenger, but that's not saying much.

    Maybe Honda is the only one selling close to capacity at this point. I think they can make about 33,000 Accords a month for the US market, and that's almost what they sold. Toyota can make up to 40,000 Camry's a month, and so they are already way under what they can do. I believe Ford and Nissan have about the same capacity as Honda, and so they are selling about 8000 fewer midsize cars a month than they are able to make....

    Cool!And you have Predictions too!

    I think that everything you said is dead on. It is a buyers market, unless you want the Accord. For quite a long time I have felt what most of us know, that the Accord is the most desirable mid-size on the market, so folks are not going to have salespeople begging at their feet at the local Honda store.

    Also, The day of the Camry and it's supernatural build quality have passed. It is just another mid size sedan, and only the SE V 6 stands out as one I would gladly have in my driveway. Unfortunately, I would have the Honda and it's buttery smooth 3.5 instead, and so would many others.

    My Optima has slipped below 10,000 units a month. There are a few new adverts for the Optima, with one about a father rushing home in his SX-L Optima to deliver a goldfish home before his young daughter realizes hers has passed; and replaced with an impostor. I think the restyle looks great in the front, but the "diffuser" in the back is a bit much, and does not at all do anything for under-car airflow like it does on real racing cars. A bit much is being kind. Garish is more like it.

  • @ab348 said:
    I have heard that Mazda is hugely disappointed with sales of the new 6. From those numbers, I can see why. An early refresh is due next year I hear.

    I have not heard anything about a refresh either. I can't understand why folks are not at Mazda dealers in droves for these cars. The Mazda 3 is almost even better than the 6. It's Audi-like interior and logical control layout is rated as superb. I can't wait to see more of them on the road..all of them.

  • brian125brian125 Member Posts: 5,244

    The mazda 3 is a nice car but much to small to be a contender with adults.

    23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited January 2014

    @cski said:
    ....It is a buyers market, unless you want the Accord. For quite a long time I have felt what most of us know, that the Accord is the most desirable mid-size on the market, so folks are not going to have salespeople begging at their feet at the local Honda store....

    Actually, even the Accord can be had for big discounts. I got almost $2700 off msrp on my 2013 EXL Navi, and that's when the model was just a few months old. And some people have done better than that. And Honda is even offering 0.9% on the Accord for 5 years. So even on the Accord you can get a great value and a very good deal.

    But you won't get 0% and 4000+ off list like with some Camry models. As everyone says, the Accord is just a better car than the Camry in pretty much every way, and so they don't have to give them away. At least not yet. But even Honda is feeling the competitive heat. I actually credit the Sonata and the Optima with making Honda step up its game and add lots of stuff as standard (including a direct injected engine) for a very good price.

    With Honda looking for 30,000 new Accord customers every month, even they are blowing them out the doors to some extent....

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • brian125brian125 Member Posts: 5,244

    A camry per unit cost is over 1k per vehicle less than a Accord. That with Toyota's fleet sales puts them over the top.

    23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE

  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    edited January 2014

    Mazda, from everything I've read in the news, seems to be pleased as punch with it's sales of the Mazda6 and sell about as many as they can build and ship over from Japan. I'd like to know from where somebody "heard" differently. They couldn't meet demand the first few months but are now catching up. The refresh doesn't appear to be any kind of drastic redesign but just the infotainment system is going to be changed to basically what the Mazda3 has. That system was not ready when the redesigned 6 went on sale early last year. Now, whether the 2015 Mazda6 will have it this year or the 2016 model which won't arrive until next year, 2015 I don't know. According to that autonews article apparently they don't know either and are guessing as to when the upgrade will be. Everyone is expecting the upgrade to the infotainment system after seeing the new one in the Mazda3 and it is pretty nice and does make the one in the Mazda6 seem "old" in comparison.

    There is nothing in that article that insinuates that Mazda is disappointed with the Mazda6 sales.

  • brian125brian125 Member Posts: 5,244
    edited January 2014

    The toyota matrix was a nice little vehicle. I think it was discontinued. The mazda 3 is def. a better car.

    Is the mazda 3 bigger than the hyundai veloster.

    23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited January 2014

    @benjaminh said: But you won't get 0% and 4000+ off list like with some Camry models. As everyone says, the Accord is just a better car than the Camry in pretty much every way, and so they don't have to give them away. At least not yet. But even Honda is feeling the competitive heat. I actually credit the Sonata and the Optima with making Honda step up its game and add lots of stuff as standard (including a direct injected engine) for a very good price.

    Right, and the Camry just didn't live up to it's customer expectations. The interior is cheap looking, with C/D saying it's materials were "barely acceptable" and "is fake aluminum supposed to squishy and able to be scratched off with a fingernail? As a matter of fact, if Mr.Toyoda loses the "best selling car in America" moniker, I fully believe that the board of directors will expect him to commit Hari-Kari at sunrise the following morning.

  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062

    If the new Camry is anything like the prototype I saw a few months ago, the competition has nothing whatsoever to worry about. It's an improvement over the current one, but not by much.

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited January 2014

    Didn't the Camry get a full redesign in 2012? If so, I think this would just be a mild refresh, since it's probably on a c. 5 year cycle for a full redesign? I bet, however, that they are beefing up the steel structure so that it can pass the IIHS small offset test.

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • wayne21wayne21 Member Posts: 259

    @ab348 said:"Mazda6: Despite getting redesigned for the 2014 model year, a re-engineered Mazda6 is scheduled to arrive in late 2014 or early 2015 with a new interior and updated front fascia.

    I could not agree more on the mazda 6 interior. I think it has the sharpest exterior of the class, but once you open the door the party is over! It just looks dull and cheap! In fact, as much as I hate to admit this, I think it's worse than the camry's interior. I also think they are way overpriced. $30k for a 4 cyl? with a loser interior? I think they are more expensive than most of their equivalent counterparts.

  • ahightowerahightower Member Posts: 539
    They certainly begged me plenty, on the last weekend of the second quarter ;)
    But the car sells itself. I bought it despite the irritating salesman, not because of. Factory rebates are rare but dealers will sell at invoice. They know we know how to look things up online... Then they quickly tack it back on with "dealer installed accessories". It was not an easy negotiation from there, but deals can be had and financing is at 0.9%.
  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 4,676

    I think their small dealer network is part of the problem and that probably keeps prices higher than they should be too. I had an '04 Mazda6 wagon awhile back. Terrific car. Wish they would make a wagon again. Very practical for dogs. It was a gas hog though, not like their current lineup. And back then there were at least 3 dealerships in the city closest to me. Now there's only 1.

    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • wayne21wayne21 Member Posts: 259

    @suydam said:
    Wish they would make a wagon again. Very practical for dogs.

    I believe wagons are still made, but they call them crossovers. When I was shopping for a station wagon I bought a venza. To me it is a camry wagon. Cheapest, hardest plastic Toyota could find for an interior, but it had the wagon characteristics I was looking for.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited January 2014

    @wayne21 said:
    I could not agree more on the mazda 6 interior. I think it has the sharpest exterior of the class, but once you open the door the party is over! It just looks dull and cheap! In fact, as much as I hate to admit this, I think it's worse than the camry's interior. I also think they are way overpriced. $30k for a 4 cyl? with a loser interior? I think they are more expensive than most of their equivalent counterparts.

    I think Mazda is taking things step by step. First, they had to offer a solid foundation. A product that is great at the core. They can then introduce a more powerful engine (like a 2.0T) after generating some income and hopefully selling some top-end GT models that have a healthier profit margin than say the entry-level Sport model.

    I have driven a Mazda 6 Touring. The interior is VERY well screwed together, and is just as nice in most ways as my Optima EX (a direct equivalent trim wise). My gripe with it was the small LED readouts and the never ending sea of black plastic, but it is at least good quality plastic. It handles like a dream though, and is absolutely stunning in red.

    Lastly, $31,000 for a sedan with only 185 hp is not going to cut it for me either. Mazda better get some zoom under the hood ASAP... IMHO.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited January 2014

    Here is the black on black Mazda 6 interior like the one I drove. It looks great....just too much black for some people. I can't tell if the seats are leather or leatherette, but they look like perforated leather. I would have no problem with this being my office.

  • @suydam said:
    I think their small dealer network is part of the problem and that probably keeps prices higher than they should be too. I had an '04 Mazda6 wagon awhile back. Terrific car. Wish they would make a wagon again. Very practical for dogs. It was a gas hog though, not like their current lineup. And back then there were at least 3 dealerships in the city closest to me. Now there's only

    I/we also had a 2004 Mazda 6 wagon. It was a black Sportwagon V6 w/ 240 hp. It was actually my wife's car. We had trouble keeping the A?C working, it liked to hydroplane a bit too much, too, and the transmission was kaput at 67 k. It drive great though, and back then 240 hp was really powerful for a mid size wagon.

  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 19,029

    I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with it from that picture, though the sea of black would not appeal to me as I hate black interiors. I understand they have a parchment version that still has a lot (perhaps too much) black in it that I might like better. With interiors I find you need to experience them in person to get a sense of the materials quality. I wonder if the criticism comes from it being a bit too conservative in design and not swoopy inside like the Fusion and others? I know that is de rigeur these days but I am not a fan of that style.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 4,676

    Ours is still on the road. We had no problems with it. Fuel economy not great. Only sold it because of vehicle changes with one child going abroad for a year. Every time I see the person who bought it she tells me how much she loves it. It would be good if Mazda had one kind of vehicle you couldn't get anywhere else. Like the good luck Kia has had with the Soul or Nissan with the Leaf or Honda's Fit.

    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,253

    Accord and 6 interiors are ok for base models, but really fall short when compared to the higher end of their competition.

    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • brian125brian125 Member Posts: 5,244
    edited January 2014

    Explorer

    Accord and 6 interiors are ok for base models, but really fall short when compared to the higher end of their competition.

    So what would you consider higher end. The 2014 EXL v-6 is selling at 26 to 27 k with tax excluded. I cant think of any vehicles that have this much to offer for that price, resale, and build quality..

    23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,253

    @brian125 said:
    Explorer

    So what would you consider higher end. The 2014 EXL v-6 is selling at 26 to 27 k with tax excluded. I cant think of any vehicles that have this much to offer for that price, resale, and build quality.

    I have a Titanium model Fusion. My boss has an Accord EXL. Interiors do not compare.
    Mid size cars don't need a V6 anymore. The 2.0 turbo is a good balance of power, more than I need, and fuel economy.

    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • brian125brian125 Member Posts: 5,244
    edited January 2014

    Explorer,

    Both cars are priced about the same. My problem with the fusion is i just cant get past that ugly front grille look. Toyota did a similar look on the new Avalon but the grille isn't as large. I remember the older fusions they had very wide window pillars that block your turning view. I rented a 2012 fusion se and hated it .. Did they make the window pillars smaller with the new redesign??.. Is it bigger inside.. What kind of mpg are you getting with the 2.0.

    My V-6 accord gets very good gas mileage if you drive sensible.. my gas mileage was between 23 to 26 mpg. in nyc area when i drove it slow.. My 2013 Accord which is now my daughters car was the best Accord i owned compared to my other 3 Accords . My only problem with this Accord is i hate the parking brake in the center console. At almost 6' 2 there are not many Cars that i find comfortable. I love my SUV's

    23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311

    suydam: The Mazda5 is still made, and you can even get it with a 6-speed manual. But it hasn't yet been given the Skyactiv treatment, and so mpg is, as you say, mediocre. I owned a 2010 Mazda5 for a couple of years, and I liked it in terms of the handling, the room, and the performance of the engine and transmission. But the interior felt cheap to me, and it had poor rear visibility.

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • brian125brian125 Member Posts: 5,244

    It would be nice to take the five best models in this class and make your own vehicle from each of the 5 different companies. Take the best each have to offer making one bad [non-permissible content removed] vehicle..

    23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited January 2014

    The Fusion is a very nice car with great looks, inside and out, as well as very strong performance.

    But it seems like a draw at best for the Fusion in the engine dept. Both the V-6 Accord and 2.0 Fusion are rated by the epa at 26 combined for mpg, but according to edmunds.com the V-6 Accord will go from 0-60 in 6.1 seconds, while their test of the Fusion to 0-60 was 6.9. That's a significant difference.

    http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/track-tests/track-tested-2013-honda-accord-ex-l-v6-vs-2013-nissan-altima-3-5-sl.html

    http://www.edmunds.com/ford/fusion/2013/road-test-specs1.html

    Car and Driver got a V-6 Accord to go even faster than that, and in fact it tied a BMW 328i:

    With less weight to haul around—3552 pounds versus 3607 for the last V-6 sedan we tested—our Touring example sprinted to 60 mph in 5.6 seconds and tripped the quarter-mile lights in 14.1 seconds at 101 mph. Those figures put it solidly ahead of all its competitors and into sports-sedan territory; the Accord ties our long-term, six-speed-manual BMW 328i to 60 and trumps that car in the quarter by 0.2 second and 1 mph.

    http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2013-honda-accord-sedan-v-6-test-review

    Motor Trend tested the Sport Accord 2.4 6MT at just 6.8 going zero to 60. In other words, in manual form it can give a 2.0 turbo Fusion a run for its money:

    http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1209_2013_honda_accord_first_test/specs.html

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited January 2014

    The new 2015 Ford F-150, out in about 6 months, apparently has lost 500-700 pounds of weight because of the use of high quality aluminum alloys. Could this work for midsize cars? What are the costs and the risks? How much weight, do you think, could be lost in this way? And what would the performance boost of this be for mpg and performance for the next generations of midsize cars due in about 4 years.

    Total guess here, but it's remotely possible that someone like Honda might follow the road that Ford is blazing here. If aluminum is strong enough for a truck, and works in terms of manufacturing, performance, and commercial acceptance, why not do it for a car? It might make the car costs $500-$1000 more, which is perhaps the biggest challenge. You'd save more than that in gas in probably 5 years, and maybe less, but....

    My guess is you could potentially shed 300 pounds of weight in this way, which might not sound big but is in fact almost 10% of the weight of the car. With 10% less weight you could have an engine that was 10% smaller and have the same acceleration and significantly better mpg.

    The next generation of Accord, for instance, due in just a little more than 3.5 years, needs to get mpg as high as the current Civic, which gets 30 in the city and 39 on the highway. And yet the next Accord still needs to have about the same interior room as the current Accord. It needs to shrink on the outside, and get lighter, without shrinking much on the inside.

    I do think the V-6 is probably doomed in the long run for the Accord. Even though I feel lukewarm at best about turbos, I think Honda will probably go with a c. 2.0 turbo as the next high performance Accord. This would allow them to shrink the engine compartment by a few inches without shrinking the passenger compartment. The standard engine could potentially be a 2.2 normally aspirated ice, which, with the next generation earth dreams cvt might be able to get the mpg of today's civic. Or close, anyway.

    You can bet the Honda engineers, as well as the engineers of every other player in the midsize market, is gaming out scenarios for how to get to 30 mpg city and 40 mpg highway without a hybrid.

    VW has already tested a 1.4 turbo 4 that can deactivate 2 cylinders at highway speed and get as much as 42 mpg, and so this is possible.

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
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