Midsize Sedans 2.0

[Deleted User] · February 2014

I loved my Grand Cherokee Laredo V8. Great handling in the snow. When I was in high school

I was handed down my fathers 1978 Plymouth Trail-Duster 4x4 white with red and orange stripes, 440 V8, and as always....dual exhaust. The top could be removed and driven as a convertible. Great first car!

explorerx4 · February 2014

Got the Fusion back today.New rear bumper looks good, maybe even fits better the one before.
Supposed to drive to Ohio next weekend. Am hoping to take the Fusion, but it may depend on the weather.

explorerx4 · February 2014

@cski said:
1978 Plymouth Trail-Duster.

Those kind of rare. Although pretty much the same thing, let me see, should i buy a Dodge Ramcharger or Plymouth Trail Duster?

Mr_Shiftright · February 2014

I've only seen 2 in my entire automotive career. Well, two that I've noticed.

benjaminh · February 2014

Ford, like everyone else, has more capacity to build their midsize car than they have sales. Story from Wards auto about how both the Flat Rock and Mexico factories building the Fusion are taking down time to reduce inventories:

http://wardsauto.com/plants-amp-production/flat-rock-get-back-speed-ford-exec-says

....Ford shifted some Fusion production to Flat Rock in August to meet escalating demand for the sedan and soak up unused capacity at the facility. Previously, the car was built solely in Mexico.

But since then, Fusion sales have cooled, with inventories rising to a 97-day supply at the end of January, despite two weeks of downtime at the Flat Rock plant during the month and 3-weeks of shutdowns at the Hermosillo, Mexico, facility so far this year.

Flat Rock utilization ran at only 43% in 2013, but a WardsAuto forecast calls for that to increase to 68% with Fusion added to the mix for the full year....

“There's more capacity (for) Fusion than there are sales right now...."

brian125 · February 2014

Speaking of Ford...

I always thought Ford was making better vehicles than GM.. Is it possible Gm has caught up?

Here in NYC/ 5 boro's. Our Sanatation dept has its offical car the Fusion. All white with orange and blue markings . I see alot of them thru the city. Mostly supervisor and bosses have them to check up on our garbage pick up and problems .

Ford has had a good run with there Crown vic's as yellow cabs in NYC for many years. Seems like as these cars get older they are being replaced with more Toyota hybrids, and Nissans.

Hey Gm Your no where to be found here????? Are you not in the car business..

Nissan new nv200 is the new mini/ box cab truck that has been approved to be one of the offical vehicles for city cabs. 12 thousand units will be made to start up production.

akirby · February 2014

GM is getting much better. The new Impala is impressive. But it seems to be hit and miss - some great products, some not so great. And still no regular hybrids from GM - just the Volt and ELR.

Ford has done more of an across the board improvement on almost every vehicle but they seem to be having more engineering and parts issues now although I think that's a product of an accelerated development cycle to get to common global platforms and ecoboost engines for CAFE compliance.

backy · February 2014

Depends what you mean by a "regular" hybrid. GM has been building "mild" hybrids for years, including the Malibu. Call these "eAssist" I think. Not the same kind of hybrid system as used by the likes of Toyota or Ford, but gas engine with some electric assist. Also they now have the Spark EV, which may be the lowest-priced EV in the US.

explorerx4 · February 2014

@brian125 said:
Speaking of Ford...

Lat time I was in Manhattan, I saw plenty of Hybrid police cars, Altima's, Camry's and Fusion's.

akirby · February 2014

@backy said:
Depends what you mean by a "regular" hybrid. GM has been building "mild" hybrids for years, including the Malibu. Call these "eAssist" I think. Not the same kind of hybrid system as used by the likes of Toyota or Ford, but gas engine with some electric assist.

I mean real hybrids, not just start/stop eassist mild hybrids that only get a few mpg better than the regular versions.

backy · February 2014

Or real hybrids that only get a few more mpg than the regular versions, eh?

[Deleted User] · February 2014

On the '78 Trail Duster... (off topic)

@explorerx4 said: Those kind of rare. Although pretty much the same thing, let me see, should i buy a Dodge Ramcharger or Plymouth Trail Duster?

@MrShift@Edmunds said:
I've only seen 2 in my entire automotive career. Well, two that I've noticed.

We had the Top Hand version, white with the orange and red stripes on the hood and the sides, and white mag wheels. cloth high back bucket seats, A/C (dealer installed and never, ever worked), factory CB radio, huge center console with 12 pack storage and cup-holders, 440 V8 w/ 3 speed automatic, and the top came off so it could more Jeep like. My father was a real estate land developer and used it off road almost daily. Finally, It got stuck in a swamp up to the doors, which rusted the whole body out over 10 years. It never, ever broke down. It was bad [non-permissible content removed] and I loved it, just rusted apart.

I have only seen one (other than my fathers/mine) with those options. Here is the one I found just like it, except with yellow paint.

I just saw that they only made 402 of them in this article.
http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2012/05/30/hemmings-find-of-the-day-1978-dodge-power-wagon-top-hand/

explorerx4 · February 2014

We are driving to Ohio and hopefully back this weekend. I plan on driving the Fusion. Don't want to take my old Explorer and trying to keep the miles down on the wife's Escape.
Only plans I know of for the weekend are visiting the Rock and Roll HOF.
On the way back, I'll try to buy some Yuengling ice cream at Wegman's.

[Deleted User] · February 2014

The Fusion sounds like a good idea for the drive. My neighbor just bought a purple/blue one with black chrome rims on it. I haven't had the time to go over and chat him up.

We are bracing ourselves for 8" to 10" of snow. The news hypes it up so much that you'd think it was a national disaster. People flock to the Shell so they can make sure to get a full tank of gas, and then to the Safeway in droves to get 8 gallons of milk, 4 loaves of bread (and hopefully hot chocolate). Then home where every neighbor has an emergency full tank of gas in their cars, which of course will not be driven for days.

Do people really think that after the storm on Friday...those items will no longer be available?

Anyway. Be safe on your trip.

It's a pretty long drive from CT. Let us all know how you do on F/E and have a nice trip.

explorerx4 · February 2014

Update. Wife nixed taking the Fusion.We are taking the Escape. She's worried about driving across PA and I don't completely disagree. She did agree to drive the Explorer for a couple of weeks to 'buy back' some of the mileage.

ryster · February 2014

@cski said:
The Fusion sounds like a good idea for the drive. My neighbor just bought a purple/blue one with black chrome rims on it. I haven't had the time to go over and chat him up.

We are bracing ourselves for 8" to 10" of snow. The news hypes it up so much that you'd think it was a national disaster. People flock to the Shell so they can make sure to get a full tank of gas, and then to the Safeway in droves to get 8 gallons of milk, 4 loaves of bread (and hopefully hot chocolate). Then home where every neighbor has an emergency full tank of gas in their cars, which of course will not be driven for days.

Do people really think that after the storm on Friday...those items will no longer be available?

Anyway. Be safe on your trip.

It's a pretty long drive from CT. Let us all know how you do on F/E and have a nice trip.

If the power goes out for a week, then those items will not be available immediately. We are bracing for 9-14" of snow plus some ice. There have been warnings to prepare as if power will be out for a week.

I have 3/4 of a tank of gas in my Sonata so I didn't wait in line for gas on the way home tonight.

[Deleted User] · February 2014

I don't think my grocery store has closed in the 30 years I have lived here. Anyway, we have 12+ inches here, and the Optima is going nowhere until they plow my street.

[Deleted User] · February 2014

just usede the yardstick to measure. 16" of wet, heavy, gloopy snow.

lovmycar · February 2014

I feel for you guy's! I have very good friends in Verginia and they live in the upper elevations so it has really been a beoutch for them getting around. I'm waiting on word from them now as to how they are making it. Anyway we actually had snow and sleet and icey roads here which is very rare but happened 3 times in about 3 weeks and i'm in extreme south Louisiana. The first time this year no one was prepared even though it was predicted by the weather service, we get that sort of thing so rarely that hardly anyone took heed. Well after 777 auto accidents and I think 6 deaths accross the state attributed to black ice the next one a week later shut down nearly everything. The state police and all the local law enforcement agencies took so much heat for not closing the bridges and elevated road ways the first time didn't mess around the second go around. Things closed early and for sure here where I live and the next parrish over a curfew was set, you get caught on the hiway you will be stopped, period! I am a coordinator for an oilfield support company and we could not ship anything in or out for 3 1/2 days. That made the oilfield here come to a screatching halt.
Why did I write all that mess you say? Well I have what I call a brand new 2014 Optima SX-T and there is no way I would risk taking that thing on the road in that garbage weather. Down here there is no roads or Interstates to travel on without crossing a bunch of bridges and elevated roadways over water "BLACK ICE". 9 times out of 10 you can't see it till you are in it then it's to late, no control over your vehicle at all get off the gas and grab your butt with both hands and pray. Most of our overpasses, bridges and elevated roadways are posted " will freeze before hiway" or something like that. So if you travel to Louisiana and have in mind you don't have to worry about slipping and sliding on the hiway, please use extreme caution in the winter during freeze conditions it can fool you and it will get you!! Another thing, some people are under the assumption it doesn't get cold here, well for all you snow birds that migrate south for the winter months if you come here I suggest you bring some cloths. Our 30 degrees with 30 MPH wind gusts and drizzle with fog will cut you to the bone, I promise. My oldest daughter and her family live in Alaska and they go out and play in below zero temps and she will tell you, it is much colder at home in Louisiana than there if you have to be in it for extended periods. This damp cold gets to you. We have a little saying down here that goes like this, " if you don't like the weather today you will probably love it tomorrow".
Enjoy your travels but please take caution when driving in harsh winter conditions it can be deadly!!

brian125 · February 2014

lovmycar.............I'm with you.......... Enjoyed your painful post about the weather.

And I thought i was the only miserable person suffering this bad winter here in NY. Thank god for the Edmund friends to cheer me up on another snow bound day here in New york city area..

looks like another 3 inches has fallen since 10am so far here in NYC and its starting to come down Now..

boy you talk about bang up car derby down south with all the road ice and car pile ups. Our Ins. premiums will be going up across the board you watch.

I tried to get down to my place in Myrtle beach but with this nasty weather coming up the coast for the 3rd time flights are so backed up and why bother with bad weather there.

All I could say today is........... Thank God for my X-5 it is paying off in dividends... LOL

dudleyr · February 2014

Absolutely right that 30 degrees can feel cold in a 30 mph wind. Cannot compare to -20 degrees with a 50 mph wind like we can get up in the Dakotas (and I am sure Alaska). We also have no trees to stop the wind, so it is not some number that only occurs at the airport.

Hope you all drive safe in the snow - it can be very tough with no equipment to clear the roads. Probably very few people have snow tires as well. Some of the worse driving conditions can be in the South especially when you combine a few people from snowy areas showing off with many locals that don't have much experience in the snow.

[Deleted User] · February 2014

When I went outside Thursday morning it was SNOWMAGGEDDON. I measured up to 2 feet in drifts next to my car. I could not even see my car... except for the mirrors.

However, at about noon it seemed like the whole neighborhood went out and we shoveled for hours... but it was easy when all were committed. By 5:30 AM Friday I was on my way to work. Fastest recovery DC has ever had. I was very proud of our governments response.

My Optima climbed up my icy uphill street with ease, and had very good traction. Thank god I replaced the stock tires with my Bridgestone, which I chose for wet weather traction and extreme quiet ride. Even over packed snow roads I had full control at all times. Great car.

[Deleted User] · February 2014

BTW I have the Serenity Plus Bridgestones
215/55/17

[Deleted User] · February 2014

Anyone having good (or bad) snow experiences in current or late model mid size sedans? How about worst snow driving experience period?

dudleyr · February 2014

Good or bad is much more about the tire than the vehicle. My '07 Accord is terrible in the snow with half worn Michelin Primacy. With brand new Xice3 I would take it over any AWD or 4wd vehicle on all seasons.

suydam · February 2014

I have been pleasantly surprised at how well our '13 Accord has done all winter. We have a steep, curving driveway and country roads. It's unusual for our area to have such sustained bad weather. I have the Goodyear Assurance tires and the car hasn't slid or gotten stuck yet (knock wood!). This winter has been quite a test.

[Deleted User] · February 2014

@dudleyr said:
Good or bad is much more about the tire than the vehicle. My '07 Accord is terrible in the snow with half worn Michelin Primacy. With brand new Xice3 I would take it over any AWD or 4wd vehicle on all seasons.

Wow man. A pretty bold statement. I suspect ground clearance would be an obstacle in 10" of snow, which my Jeep handled easily. but in 2' of snow there are very few vehicles that can contend with it unless on tracks.

I am not sure of your area suydam but good to hear that the 13 Accord doesn't disappoint.

suydam · February 2014

Ground clearance is definitely an issue. I have friends with Jeeps who drive over snow-covered driveways I wouldn't even attempt with a Honda. That said, in the typical roads that are non-salted with 3 or so inches that we tend to have before plows get to them, the Honda has done very well. I'm in Ohio and we've had continuous snow on the ground since November.

[Deleted User] · February 2014

I guess Ohio is probably very similar to Buffalo in the snowfall and temperature department. That leads me to a big question.

Rust.

How do you handle rust up in the great lakes states as it pertains to car buying and car maintenance? Which cars are the best at repelling rust, and how does one go about buying a local used car? I have lived here in VA since I was 5 so I am just curious.

The only example I know of dealing with it (off the top of my head) is my cousin in Erie. He bought a nice 25 year old home that has a 2 car garage with sloped, heated floors with a drain in the middle. Every time he came home, he washed all the salt off his car before pulling in the garage, (from heated water inside) instead of the outdoor spigot, which is obviously going to be shut off for the winter. Then he would pull in and finish up w/o flooding the place. A very elegant and practical way of protecting his cars.

I have heard that the Mazda 3 is terrible from rust, and that Honda's rust faster than Toyota's, and that GM pickups are better than Fords. Stuff like that, but I think you may be a better source!

m6user · February 2014

I've lived in Michigan and Illinois all my life and have had over 35 different cars/trucks/motorcycles. Rust hasn't really been much of a problem since about 1995. I've kept two or three of the more recent vehicles for 10 years or more and haven't had any trouble with rust. I never do any kind of rinsing at home and only wash the car a handful of times during the winter. I have a 2003 p/u in my driveway that doesn't have a speck of rust and it is what, almost 12 years old. I think when the weather is very cold it is better to just let the stuff stay frozen rather than constantly thawing it out with warm water. I've never rustproofed either as I believe it is not necessary for one and two I've read where rustproofing can plug up weepholes and actually cause more damage than one is trying to avoid.

The Mazda3 did have a problem but that was about 10 years ago it wasn't even called the Mazda3 then but the Protege. As far as Hondas rusting faster than Toyotas I have no idea but I would guess that is very old information too as I can remember very early Hondas(like in the 70s) rusting very badly but nothing like that in modern times so to speak. Same with GM and Ford pickups. Some of these old problems live on by people repeating them and don't apply today. Kind of like the rep Hyundai had for the first 10 years in the U.S. and now they are accepted as fairly reliable vehicles. I like to deal with factual, more recent information. I could say that "I heard" Hyundai/Kia are pieces of sh$$ which would be true if I was talking 10-15 years ago but not now.

suydam · February 2014

I agree. Haven't seen any rust problems with any of my cars, and not generally except for 20 year old trucks.

ab348 · February 2014

Up here in Nova Scotia, Mazda 3s had a terrible problem with rust up to about 2007 models. The jury is still out on later models.

explorerx4 · February 2014

We are back from our trip to Cleveland. There are some big potholes there.
Other than that, can't wait to go back when the weather is better.
Rock and Roll HOF was great. It's currently featuring a Rolling Stones exhibit.
Doesn't get any better than that.
My mother came with us and she wanted to sit for a while because she was tired.
We sat and watched a Stones concert for about 1/2 an hour.
She told me, I don't usually like this music but this a pretty good.
BTW, she is 84!
I think I'm going to go smaller on rims next vehicle. I'll go for more tire sidewall height rather than less.
The only vehicles I saw in the ditch on the highway other than a few 18 wheelers were fwd sedans.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2014

Cut off age for enjoying the Stones is about 72

[Deleted User] · February 2014

Cut off age for being IN the stones is 95!

[Deleted User] · February 2014

@explorerx4 said:
We are back from our trip to Cleveland. There are some big potholes there.
Other than that, can't wait to go back when the weather is better.
Rock and Roll HOF was great. It's currently featuring a Rolling Stones exhibit.
Doesn't get any better than that.
My mother came with us and she wanted to sit for a while because she was tired.
We sat and watched a Stones concert for about 1/2 an hour.
She told me, I don't usually like this music but this a pretty good.
BTW, she is 84!
I think I'm going to go smaller on rims next vehicle. I'll go for more tire sidewall height rather than less.
The only vehicles I saw in the ditch on the highway other than a few 18 wheelers were fwd sedans.

I came up in the Iron-Maiden/ AC/DC era, but I have been to a Stones concert at RFK in the late 80's. I can't remember exactly when, as the Stones were my friends thing. I like them too just not hard core.

As for the tire side wall thing, I thought you took the Escape?

explorerx4 · February 2014

@cski said:

I thought you took the Escape?

Yes we did, but that has 19's too.

explorerx4 · February 2014

@MrShift@Edmunds said:
Cut off age for enjoying the Stones is about 72

I bought my neighbor who is a big Stones fan, a clear vinyl version of Hot Rocks (greatest hits up through '71).

[Deleted User] · February 2014

Potholes!

We have all been talking about the weather, and because it has been very cold (for us) this winter, that for the first time in years we have a lot of potholes.Deep potholes. My car has hit some, thankfully with no damage or alignment issues. One of them was so bad that it rattled my teeth. I really am amazed there was no damage. And no, I am not an idiot just driving into potholes willy-nilly. Hard to judge their depth at night, and it is so easy to forget they are there in an area that usually does not have to worry about them at all.

I have much respect for snow belt dwellers, and for the cars that endure it and still clean up good in the spring. These cars have come a long way from the rust buckets I saw in Buffalo in the late 70's-early 80's.

benjaminh · February 2014

Ford raises incentives on Fusion to cut inventories

Nick Bunkley Twitter RSS feed and Bradford Wernle

Automotive News

February 21, 2014 - 4:07 pm ET
DETROIT -- Ford Motor Co. has been raising incentives on the Fusion sedan to help clear out growing inventories, just months after it started building the car in a second North American plant to keep up with demand.

In many parts of the country, the Fusion is now offered with zero-percent financing for 60 months plus $1,000 cash back....

"The car is selling, but not as fast as they're building them," said Larry Taylor, the owner of Beau Townsend Ford in Vandalia, Ohio, and a former member of the Ford dealer council. "They've buried us."....

http://www.autonews.com/article/20140221/RETAIL/140229964/ford-raises-incentives-on-fusion-to-cut-inventories

akirby · February 2014

It's not that bad - they only have about 88 days inventory on hand. Most other midsized sedans are much higher than that.

serenity185 · February 2014

Yeah, a few dealerships in the Twin Cities are offering the Fusion at up to $4-5 K off MSRP. I was surprised, as I always hear of how expensive they are in comparison to other midsize sedans. However, compared to such competitors as the Accord and 6, it's actually less expensive, as I'm not seeing anywhere near $4-5k discounts on those models. It sure makes the Fusion a tempting choice, but I have no idea how reliable the 1.5 Ecoboost will be after hearing about all the problems with the 1.6 Ecoboost.

And ab348, I have been reading more about Mazda's rust issues, and it's almost scaring me out of a 2014 Mazda 6. I live in Minnesota where the roads are salted and where my car is outside 24/7. My 2007 Accord has held up very well (it helps that it's Carbon Bronze Pearl, so it doesn't show the dirt), so to think of even the possibility of a rust issue on a new car is unsettling.

suydam · February 2014

I had an '04 Mazada 6 wagon that is still on the road and doing fine. I also owned a '90 Mazda 626 and an '88 323. Each lasted well over 100k. All were kept outside. We have cold winters and live in a rural area. I would have no hesitation about buying another Mazda. Today's cars of any make are so much better now than they were 20 years ago.

ab348 · February 2014

Mazda's rust problems seemed to be model-specific. The Mazda 3 had terrible rust issues. Mazda fans say that the company made changes around 2007 or 2008 that addressed them, but it is still too soon to say for sure. They also had problems with the minivan and the Mazda 5. The 6 seemed largely immune, but it was made in a different plant (Ford's Flat Rock site). The new one is no longer made there, so who knows.

[Deleted User] · February 2014

Anyway, there are 2 layer covers all the way up to 6 layer. I found an Optima specific, 4 layer cover on eBay for 31.95 with free shipping. It has a fleece lining and mirror pockets. Too good to be true?

backy · February 2014

I have a 2005 Mazda6 that's seen 10 Minnesota (Twin Cities) winters, 9 with its previous owner, in 165k miles and no signs of rust on it yet. From its appearance, I think it was cared for well by its previous owner, a woman, and I wash it as often as I can in the winter but THIS winter has been a real challenge to keep salt off a car for any length of time, as you know.

I also have a 10-year-old Elantra GT, and it has only a quarter-sized spot of rust near the rear license plate. I think automakers in general have been doing a better job in making cars rust resistant in the past 10 years or so. It used to be that every older Honda you'd see in the Twin Cities would be rusty. The engines would last forever, but the body... not so much. But I haven't noticed that as much in the past 10 years or so.

@serenity185 said:

And ab348, I have been reading more about Mazda's rust issues, and it's almost scaring me out of a 2014 Mazda 6. I live in Minnesota where the roads are salted and where my car is outside 24/7. My 2007 Accord has held up very well (it helps that it's Carbon Bronze Pearl, so it doesn't show the dirt), so to think of even the possibility of a rust issue on a new car is unsettling.

explorerx4 · February 2014

@cski
The car should be clean before you cover it, so you still would have to wash a lot.

I've toying with the idea of getting a Fusion with less power, so I took a look at some hybrids today.
Definitely would want the 18 inch wheels. SE doesn't look quite was good as a Titanium, but i could live with it.
Incentives are a lot less on a hybrid, but I could make that up in fuels savings in about 3 years.
Just thinking about things, at this point.

[Deleted User] · February 2014

Well, I would imagine the new Mazda 6 is being made in a very modern factory with state of the art rustproofing of it's high strength steel components. Don't get scared. It is a great car. I think it is made in Mazda's Yamaguchi plant in Japan.

[Deleted User] · February 2014

@explorerx4 said:
cski
The car should be clean before you cover it, so you still would have to wash a lot.

I've toying with the idea of getting a Fusion with less power, so I took a look at some hybrids today.
Definitely would want the 18 inch wheels. SE doesn't look quite was good as a Titanium, but i could live with it.
Incentives are a lot less on a hybrid, but I could make that up in fuels savings in about 3 years.
Just thinking about things, at this point.

I have noticed that the Fusion 17" rims look like the optima 16's. They are not commiserate with the cars beautiful design. I would want the 18" and the 2.0T. It is on the heavy side. However, a hybrid electric motor has 100% of it's torque available at 0 (zero) rpm, and would save me a ton of money at the pump due to my congested city driving. If you like to take long trips though, the battery and electric motor are dead weight on the highway. If it was my money I would still buy the SE 2.0T. To be honest, I don't like the center stack on the Fusion. All those flat panel "clicky" buttons just doesn't do it for me. I want knurled knobs, more like an Audi.

benjaminh · February 2014

from Auto News

Sonata drags down Hyundai

Brand ranks near the bottom on 2014 J.D. Power dependability study

Ryan Beene

Automotive News
February 24, 2014

LOS ANGELES -- Hyundai notched big gains in its sales, market share and image when its swoopy 2011 Sonata hit the market. But barely three years later, the mid-sized car has left Hyundai with a black eye.

Problems reported by owners of the 2011 Sonata were the main reason that the Hyundai brand ranked fifth from the bottom in the latest dependability rankings from J.D. Power and Associates....

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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