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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162

    It's probably because the horsepower difference came mostly from better high end torque and longer rev range. This means Joe Sixpack will not see as much difference in his driving to a grocery store.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    edited May 2014

    BMW Hecho in Mexico??

    BMW to announce its first Mexican car plant in July: report

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162

    Just saw an A3 commercial. Looks like 1.8 liter is back. But, why?

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,435

    not the same 1.8l. all new motor. Same engine as in my son's Jetta, and it is a really nice unit.

    why? So they can keep the base price down, of course. and frankly, that is plenty of motor for that car.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 240,063

    @kyfdx said:
    Yeah.. 180 vs. 240

    But, when the E46 came in 325 or 330, the horsepower difference was 184 vs. 225. You could definitely tell the difference, but the 184 HP in the 325i certainly seemed adequate. I'm not a giant fan of the horsepower wars...

    I would agree. I'd love to see BMW come out with a 220i. I think 180hp would be adequate in that car.

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    True. You reach a point where the HP can not be legally applied anymore. You'd have to branch out into track venues to enjoy the car. 180HP is more than adequate, but it does depend on the weight of the car of course. 180HP in a MINI is not the same as 180HP in a Lincoln Town Car.

  • rbirns1rbirns1 Member Posts: 311

    @sweendogy said:
    "Mind showing where BMW has called the 320 a "leaser dream"? I highly doubt they ever called it that..." Bmw would never call it that, true they want you to think that you are getting a great lux car - 269 a month with 3k down for 36m/30k miles. Seems sweet until you see the lack of technology, power, lux vs a honda accord.

    What lack of technology? Other than the detuned engine, what is missing from the 320?

  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 240,063

    @rbirns1 said:
    What lack of technology? Other than the detuned engine, what is missing from the 320?

    I don't think that it's missing so much as it's optional. A base 320i has very few standard features when compared to a top of the line Accord. To get them equipped similarly, the 3-series will end up priced in the upper 30's.

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  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217

    @dino001 said:
    Just saw an A3 commercial. Looks like 1.8 liter is back. But, why?

    The new 1.8l turbo is an all new unit and the reviews are very positive. On the VW side, it will replace the 2.5l 5 cycle they have been using. Better MPG and better power.

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217

    @rbirns1 said:
    What lack of technology? Other than the detuned engine, what is missing from the 320?

    Power seats are standard on the 328i (wasn't before), folding mirrors are also standard. The premium package is really the best package to get on the 3 series, but in the 320i leather is a stand alone option, leather is part of the premium package which make sense to add for only $1300.

  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312

    @flightnurse said:
    Power seats are standard on the 328i (wasn't before), folding mirrors are also standard.

    I don't like that; I prefer manual seats. That said, bravo to BMWNA for offering a moonroof delete option on the M235i...

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217

    @roadburner said:I don't like that; I prefer manual seats. That said, bravo to BMWNA for offering a moonroof delete option on the M235i...

    This is why BMW has a la carte ordering system.. Sunroof is standard on the M235i, I too like that you can have it deleted if you want it.

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310

    @flightnurse said:
    Power seats are standard on the 328i (wasn't before), folding mirrors are also standard. The premium package is really the best package to get on the 3 series, but in the 320i leather is a stand alone option, leather is part of the premium package which make sense to add for only $1300.

    My point on technology was pretty clear a loaded accord with more hp and leather and nav kills a comp 320 in every aspect of tech as equipped- the Accord sport has power driver seat standard for 23msrp. Bmw no such luck- everything is an add on- I'm sure it's a bmw at heart but its expensive for a car with little standard. I wonder if this car is being crossed shopped vs bmw mini

  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312

    Depends on the buyer; the presence or lack of power seats, leather, and nav have no influence on my choice. Once I'm spending over $30K RWD and three pedals are my minimum requirements.
    That said, having extensively driven several iterations of the F30 I have to say that it leaves me cold; I much prefer my Club Sport and '02, not to mention my Mazdaspeed 3- and this comes from someone who has owned BMWs since 1983...

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217

    @sweendogy said:
    My point on technology was pretty clear a loaded accord with more hp and leather and nav kills a comp 320 in every aspect of tech as equipped- the Accord sport has power driver seat standard for 23msrp. Bmw no such luck- everything is an add on- I'm sure it's a bmw at heart but its expensive for a car with little standard. I wonder if this car is being crossed shopped vs bmw mini

    If you sole argument is technology then you should have bought a Q50 and not your S4... If someone wants a strip down Sports Sedan, which BTW, BMW is selling many 320i with just the Sports Package and 6 spd manual that is the way to go. Some people want a car just like it, others will load up the 320i with all options. One thing I give BMW over many other manufactures is, you can build your car how you want it.

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310

    @flightnurse - my whole argument was Price - 35k to get a car equipped as you stated- no sunroof - base stereo, no power seats or sunroof-select colors and no leather- missing 30 other items and same power as an 18k mainstream cruiser. When you say they are selling many? Where ?

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217

    @sweendogy said:
    flightnurse - my whole argument was Price - 35k to get a car equipped as you stated- no sunroof - base stereo, no power seats or sunroof-select colors and no leather- missing 30 other items and same power as an 18k mainstream cruiser. When you say they are selling many? Where ?

    In your world there are people who don't want all that but want a Sports Sedan, so they order a 320i with Sport Package, with 6 sod man and they are happy. Then there are people who take a 335i and load it up to 63K.... There isn't a right or wrong answer here. it's all about personal preference. I remember you stated you would never buy a ELPS without a manual transmission, but look you have a automatic.

    Dealers are ordering 320i's with Premium Package and leather, that seems to be the bulk of what is on lots. This isn't the lease that is all over the net, but someone who understand leases can get this 320i for roughly $250/m on a lease with very little out of pocket usually tax and fee's.

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    edited May 2014

    I agree $35k is alot of money... but, and maybe I'm forgetting something here, I believe the 320 is the cheapest RWD sport sedan on the market, regardless of luxury status.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217

    @qbrozen said:
    I agree $35k is alot of money... but, and maybe I'm forgetting something here, I believe the 320 is the cheapest RWD sport sedan on the market, regardless of luxury status.

    For the price point it's the entry level Sport Sedan that can he had with a manual transmission and sport package.

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310

    RWD sure - but you could get a more powerful german - that's an all around better sports car?

    And the double jeopardy answer alex- what is the vw golf R?

    car has more of everything in a nice German shell- except for the nice bmw "free maintence" and let's not forget about the lease deals and nice dealerships- the vw has everything a value oriented performance person would want in a 4 door.

    And motor trends take -...(and to be fair they did talk it up a bit going into this ending blurb)-

    "A $35,000 3 Series sedan sounds like a bargain until you learn what's not included. Extra-cost options on a sport package-equipped $34,775 320i include a rear-view camera, navigation system, real leather, enhanced Bluetooth, HID headlights, a moonroof, hands-free keyless entry, and an auto-dimming rearview mirror. Though the sport seats have two-way adjustable side bolsters, fully power-operated front seats are extra. Heated seats cost more, too, unless you consider how hot the black leatherette gets after the car sits in the sun for a few hours. Then there's the aforementioned $550 for a selection of metallic colors. We don't expect any luxury automaker to include all of the above options as standard equipment, but new-to-BMW customers intrigued by the 320i model but familiar with more value-oriented luxury brands may be taken aback by the fact that none of the above is standard."

    Oops I did it again- @qbrozen‌ @flightnurse @flight_doc‌

    You can read the whole article here -

    Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/1307_2013_bmw_320i_first_look/#ixzz32agaDJKa

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217

    you just don't get it, but that is fine.. Just proves again you like to hear yourself talk.

  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312

    @flightnurse said:
    you just don't get it, but that is fine.. Just proves again you like to hear yourself talk.

    Agreed...

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited May 2014

    @roadburner @flightnurse - I "agree" to disagree - simple logic for me - if you pay 35k for a car why not compare to cars costing 35k and what you actually get/ or in the 320 case what you don't get. So "I get" the value of money. Just because you think its a great sports sedan doesn't mean its a great value. - as clarified by car and driver. I would also like to know how many 320s are being ordered with sport and stick- up east all Ive seen are awd and I'm assuming auto, dk about the sports package set up.
    I like facts as well

  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194

    When I bought my A4 way back in '98, one of the reasons I bought Audi instead of BMW was that even though the prices looked similar, the BMW didn't have ANYTHING standard. Not even a folding rear seat. I see that nothing has changed. Once you content it up, add $5K or $10K easily. If you want more sport than luxury, BMW is good. If you want some luxury, too, there are better values out there.

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889

    That's certainly true. Could get a mazda3 with more options than a base 320 and even save a chunk of change. Still doesn't mean it is a good substitute for someone wanting a RWD sporty sedan, though.

    It's really so simple. Different shoppers have different orders of preference. Some folks put tech on top, some fuel mileage, some RWD/FWD/AWD.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,435

    funny thing though about the 320. People keep talking about it being a RWD, when in much of the country (at least the NE), almost every one at a dealer is an X drive.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited May 2014
    "funny thing though about the 320. People keep talking about it being a RWD, when in much of the country (at least the NE), almost every one at a dealer is an X drive."

    Would also bet most are auto, non sport and have a sunroof. - as this is BMW setup for sweet lease deal.
  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 240,063

    Is this the ELLS thread? Or the ELPS thread?

    No!

    Luxury and performance together.

    We will never agree on what constitutes performance, or luxury.

    Accord V6 will smoke a 320i - in a straight line.

    Sonata limited comes standard with features you have to pay extra for on an A4 - if they are available at all.

    We will all agree to disagree.

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  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310

    Is a pleather non-sun roof 180 hp 4cyl considered lux or performance?

  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312

    Vinyl or leather? I could not care less.
    No hole in the roof? A MAJOR plus.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    The very term "luxury performance" is tricky--in one way of looking at it, they are at odds with each other, in another way, why can't you have both in equal measure?

    For some, having a howling engine and gobs of feedback through your ears, hands and butt are anathema to "luxury", to others, any car lacking such things cannot be regarded as a "performance" car.

    I hate to bring up ancient history but in this case it might be relevant. When Mercedes first starting getting serious about capturing the luxury car market in America (by serious, I mean, large sedans, leather, wood trim, AC, automatic, plenty of gadgetry, plenty of power)--this would be in the very late 1960s, early 1970s---they ran into some serious marketing problems with former Lincoln and Cadillac owners.

    What was that? It was a lot of complaints about "these cars ride too hard" and/or "the shifting i too firm" and "the seats are too stiff".

    What the American drivers were experiencing was "performance" --excellent brakes, precise handling and a rational cockpit designed to help you drive fast.

  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312

    I have an E28 brochure from the early '80s that contains the phrase "That unfamiliar sensation you are feeling is called the road."

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    edited May 2014

    Been so busy for weeks! Promised myself I would at least make a post when the '14 S4 reached 10,000 miles. Well, I'm about 400 miles away from 11,000 and I need to report to the collective that once again Audi has managed to build an engine that starts out strong, reboots itself somehow around 5,000 miles into a stronger (and more economical) version of itself, then settles in for another 5,000 miles before it again reboots itself into a noticeably more potent version.

    My wife's SQ5 also has passed 10,000 miles and I am now fully able to discern the differences between her 8-speed tiptronic transmission and my 7-speed s-tronic.

    In a nutshell: the 8-speed seems, to me at least, to offer the most balanced (of the attributes comfort and sport) presentation of goodness in "D" -- the thing is virtually always in its sweet spot in terms of torque on tap, although the downshift rev-matching seems to be, hmm, "muted" or somehow pushed out of the foreground. Conversely, the S4 in "D" seems hell-bent to hide the performance of the supercharged engine behind a penchant to always shift up a second or a second and half too soon. Also, the s-tronic, in "D" really doesn't seem to want you to notice when it downshifts as you are slowing down.

    In "S" mode, the S4 can bear its teeth providing gobs of torque, a willingness to pull in second gear as if it were on a mission to pull a 100 year old tree stump out of hard dirt. Also, in "S" mode the S4 under even somewhat mild acceleration makes that delightful "burp or fart" sound upon up-shift, time after time. The s-tronic is a miracle of modern medicine in fact.

    When I got into the SQ5 the other day, I felt the transmission attempt to provide velvety shifts (which it did virtually all of the time, except when I pressed it hard, not to). The slight differences in feel between the two transmissions are that the s-tronic can also provide velvety shifts, but they are just "this much" smoother somehow -- shifts that under light or moderate acceleration are more heard than felt. The differences are subtle when you're pressing lightly on the right pedal, but even the masterful Audi transmission programmers cannot completely make the tiptronic mimic the s-tronic's slick moves.

    The sport seats in both Audi "S" models continue to impress with no break-in or break-down of any kind perceptible -- and, the interiors still look fresh despite the recent time I spent sitting behind the wheel of a Premium+ A3 (didn't get to drive it, however.)

    The technology too is impressive, even though the choice of T-mobile as the in-car WiFi carrier (3G with very poor signal quality about 1/3rd of the time and 2G with even worse quality the rest of the time) impresses like a turd in a swimming pool.

    I have repeatedly asked Audi for an upgrade to another carrier (AT&T, Verizon, cup and a string), I have to assume there is something that (for some fee) could be done to unlock the technology to get off of what has to be the worst cellular carrier ever (at least in SW Ohio). Of course when you get behind the wheel of a new A3 you notice NO T-MOBILE this time around. You can bet by 2016 all Audis will be divorced from T-Mobile. I'd keep my subscription if they'd price it in synch with its usefulness, perhaps $7.50 per month (in SW Ohio anyway). Instead they want $30 per month on a month-to-month basis.

    That fellow ELLPS lovers is the only flaw in other-wise delightful pair of "S" Audi cars.

    BTW - went to the Porsche dealer: finally they had ONE Macan S in stock -- hideous color combo, black on black on black (wheels), gawwd I thought goth was dead (I crack myself up).

    However, we do want to drive the Macan to see how the SQ5 holds up against it pound for pound and dollar for dollar.

    As always, drive it like you live.
    B)

  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188

    Isn't the Macan a virtual twin of the SQ5? Same powertrain and platform, right?

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  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    edited May 2014

    Nope. Porsche engine, transmission -- lower HP and torque than SQ5 but offers the ability to option to over $90K with a super high output turbo V6 not offered by Audi.

    SQ5 lifted ground clearance; Porsche ground clearance in "hunker mode." 33% of the Q5 lives on in the Macan. Offers from Porsche a seemingly price competitive version of the SQ5, if you play with the configurations possible, however, the Macan does cost more. The presumably typically optioned Macan S at the Porsche dealership (which owns the Audi dealership too) was about $64K. My wife's Prestige SQ5 was $63.5K or something close to that. An argument could be made that the Prestige SQ5 with several upgrades is still less ($5K) than a comparably equipped Macan S.

    I would think, however, if you're looking at the two at sub $65K, the Macan may present itself as, well, a Porsche! And, even if the Audi is the "deal" it is still NOT A PORSCHE.

    I would want to drive both and I would want to be fair with the option set up.

    I am an Audi fan, to be sure, but the Macan could cannibalize the SQ5 -- not the mainline Q5's, the SQ5. Either Audi needs to up the ante (an RSQ5 perhaps) or be relegated to a rung lower in the giant pecking order in the automotive sky.

    Funny, Audi has registered the name RSQ3, but as far as I can find out, NOT the RSQ5 -- can you say "Marketing!"

    :o

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310

    @markcincinnati‌ - great write ups on your experience with both audis. Now I have to ask the question you have 60k and need one car - which one of the audis do you pick?

    • I wish they still had the s4 wagon-
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343

    I guess I would go with the SQ5 if I had to choose but one. But, since I don't, I'll be very happy to motor on in the S4 -- which I still think is more fun to drive.

  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738

    @flightnurse said:
    For the price point it's the entry level Sport Sedan that can he had with a manual transmission and sport package.

    Oddly enough, if you're comparing a base model 320 to other options, the various "Muscle Cars" can be had with more options. They handle just as well and offer RWD and a manual transmission if you want it. And for as much as $5K less. And we're not even getting into VW, Infiniti, and others, which also usually come with large year end incentives.

    I know this forum is about Luxury Performance cars, but the fact is that the 320 simply is so dreadful in its base form that it's not even as nice as a Civic EX. Now, with the bigger engine and more options, it's a great car, but anyone looking for a $30K or under car has a plethora of better choices.

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    edited May 2014

    but a muscle cars you are talking about aren't sedans.

    Its still a really simple equation. RWD + sedan + manual. Find another new one for less. The only chance is if street prices for the ATS or G are lower at any given time.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying its a good choice by any means. I'm just simply giving facts as I know them. You could get a Charger, but its a fat pig with auto trans. I honestly can't think of anything else. If Suby/Yota makes a sedan version of the BRZ/FRS, they'd be in a category of 1, I believe.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310

    Agree can't find one for less- bmw did it again- for 35k they are giving away RWD sports sedans-- let's be honest and call it what it is, a base car with nothing in terms of performance or luxury ----lux aside for my dough you could get a more powerful wrx standard- would have to live with driving the 4 wheels but you get a lot of what the bmw gives you- crappy radio, no sunroof, different looking front end, 6speed manual- but you would be driving a faster, sportier, sedan and save 8k bucks.

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343

    A part of the reason folks buy the LPS and ELLPS cars is "the logo." Yep, you can almost always find something that seems to equal and often better the "LPS" and/or "ELLPS" -- call it whatever you want (including brainwashing), but folks frequently look at a fairly large swath of the market and then end up with a "fill in the blank" because it is a "fill in the blank."

    I would suspect, as a somewhat related example, that the Macan S might cannibalize the SQ5's sales (especially if there are Macans on the lot for under $60K), because the Macan is a Porsche.

    My friend, thinking he had an a-ha moment bought a Passat CC thinking he got so much more than he would have gotten (in this case) in an A4. Now, the truth of the matter is that he may be accurate in his Consumer Reports Clinical assessment of the two vehicles.

    Perhaps "hate" is too strong of a word, but -- he hated the CC -- because it WASN'T an Audi. Same story goes for someone who did the same kind of thing with a Nissan instead of an Infiniti, they couldn't wait to early terminate the lease.

    Several additional data points are certainly possible for me to share with y'all -- but you probably have your own data points and stories to tell about someone who "saw the light" and finally got the Infiniti instead of the BMW and then, almost immediately, was pining for a BMW (which would have been seriously de-contented when compared to the Infiniti -- which cost less money too.)

    I sat in (didn't drive) a maxed out Avalon and sat in and drove the Lexus "ES," concluding the Avalon was mo' car for less money. Now, in my case, I have little if any affection for the Lexus brand vs the Toyota ) Avalon -- so I would think of myself as opting for the Avalon seeing no advantage to the Lexus that would justify an extra charge.

    But, somewhere back in back of my mind, I know so many "top class" folks who practically worship Lexi, so were I to be faced with the choice, I imagine I would ultimately cave (and opt for the Lexus.)

    Funny (well sorta), I'll buy Kroger Brand every time vs the national brand if given the chance and if the Kroger Brand (pasta for instance) is cheaper. I buy Costco shirts for crissakes, but I wouldn't own a Costco gas grill -- gotta be Weber.

    The badges on cars and many other things (and yes we do need those stinkin' badges) are quite an important part of selecting, buying, financing and "enjoying the ride" [of the new 'sheen.]

    I have no idea why -- maybe I really have been brainwashed -- but I have no interest in a WRX at virtually any "real life probable" price. I'd rather have a bone stock "fill in the blank" ELLPS any day.

    DILYL

    B)

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310

    Fair commentary - and I do believe its brainwashing- I love the weber analogy because I'm the same with grills. The pasta right on as well.. Years back in 03 I bought a jetta gli because it gave me more car- 6spped vr6 then the acura tsx I also considered. I get the brand clout but for bmw but this car is pretty weak when you look at the stats sheet and consider price. Maybe the 1 series (is that happening?) will fix this, and you can have a little lux for a cheap price.

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373

    I know this is a sedans discussion, but for the same money I'd take an X1 with more power & torque than a 320i.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited May 2014

    Yeah x1 but no manual , like what you are thinking tho

  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    edited May 2014

    @qbrozen said:
    but a muscle cars you are talking about aren't sedans.

    Its still a really simple equation. RWD + sedan + manual. Find another new one for less. The only chance is if street prices for the ATS or G are lower at any given time.

    So basically it has to have 4 doors at the expense of every other option and criteria? I can so live with two less doors and 10K less money spent for a car that drives better. (0-60 in 5.7 seconds vs 6.7?) The base model 3 series is just such a disappointment. 60 less HP just turns it into a slug that feels like you're driving an E30 with a almost thousand pounds added. Oh, wait...

    And they make you pay for everything including color paint. The article mentioned above didn't clarify that your choices without spending $550 extra were plain black and white. Not just non-metallic paint, but spray-can basic black or white to add insult to injury.

    $10K less and two fewer doors... If you need that easier back seat entry and exit that badly, you're better off just getting a SUV or a Camry.

    Also, of note was the test of a V8 mustang vs a M3 that was done a while back. The reviewer gave the "win" to the M3, but it was 0.02 seconds around a track with everything turned off in the hands of a racing driver. And a loss of 6+ seconds(!) with the normal driving assists turned on (same driver - ouch). Given the vast price difference, it was clear that the "muscle cars" of today don't handle anything like their namesakes.

    Sporty and performance? I'd take one of those "muscle" cars, add leather and all the goodies, and live with two less doors. And still be less money than a 320i with nothing on it.

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373

    @sweendogy‌

    Along the same lines, for an "as built" MSRP of $41,700 (metallic paint, cold weather pkg, HK sound) I'd seriously look into an X1 35i with its super sweet turbo Inline 6 over a 328xi.

    Just to stay on topic, I've only got 4 months left with my 2011 328xi. Time flies when you are having fun!

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • cherri4cherri4 Member Posts: 7

    Altima has athletic handling and abundant power optional six-cylinder engine does not have many problems.

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    edited May 2014

    @plekto‌ Personal criteria are just that. Can't say I agree with "might as well get a Camry," though.

    So basically it has to have 4 doors at the expense of every other option and criteria?

    No. The point is 4-doors + RWD + new. That's the equation we keep talking about.

    I agree with the comment that the X1 > 320i. But, yeah, I guess it doesn't precisely fit the sedan category.

    EDIT: I just checked on X1 pricing ... you can't get a 28i sdrive with a manual trans?? Ugh.

    And its not just a matter of living with 2 fewer doors. Even if I cut 2 more holes in my Mustang, it would not make the back seat much more inhabitable. I can live with it because my need of the back seat mostly amounts to taking my 4-yr-old 3 miles to the daycare. But I find myself driving one of my other vehicles on those 2 days a week when I pick up both kids in the evening.

    Given the vast price difference, it was clear that the "muscle cars" of today don't handle anything like their namesakes.

    I'm not following this comment. Sounds like you are saying a '60s Mustang handles better than a new one, but I'm sure that's not what you meant.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217

    @nyccarguy said:
    I know this is a sedans discussion, but for the same money I'd take an X1 with more power & torque than a 320i.

    But you can't fit 4 adults in a X1. IF people are looking at a sedan just on power alone then just move up the B7 and be done with it. But we are talking Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans are we not?

    I get the fact that Sweeny like to hear himself talk and beat his chest, this is a person who wrote on this forum he would never buy a sport sedan that didn't have a manual transmission... What happened..

    The 320i is a Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans sure one could go out an buy a accord, Camry or cough Altima, that has more equipment for less money that goes for everybody on this forum, not just me, but the aren't sport sedans. We each have our likes and dislikes for cars, but what i don't get is people talking down other peoples cars, for now the 320i works for me, I'm happy with it that is all that matters.

  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181

    flightnurse: Quit taking it so personally and falling into other poster's traps. They are talking about a model of car, not specifically your actual car, and certainly not your child or partner. Chill brother. You have to admit that the 320 hardly could be called a performance car when many run of the mill midsize sedans have more room, power and bells and whistles than the basic 320. A lot of naturally aspirated I4s have more HP than the 320 and when optioned out are many thousands less than a similarly equipped 320. The two things that the 320 has going for it are the luxury nameplate and experience and possibly handling. I say possibly handling because the Mazda6 handles pretty darn well and has more HP than the 320.

    So, really, one can say the 320 is an entry level luxury sedan but is lacking on the performance side. Heck, people on here used to complain that the TSX with a measly NA I4 with 200hp and shouldn't be included because it wasn't performance enough.

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