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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217

    @roadburner said:
    Depends on the ecu. The BMW units log flashes, so they will know if you returned it to stock. I think it can also detect some piggybacks, but I'm not 100% sure...

    The stage one I have on my car is a piggy back, and does not interact with the ECU. So BMW could download any and all data from the ECU but they will not be able to see the upgrade. It's a pretty slick upgrade. Since isn't not a reflash of the ECU, this is the issue with VW's if you chip a VW, VW's ECU knows that has happened.

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217

    @tlong said: To me, the lack of manual would be a bigger issue than the HP

    So a 320i is ok, since it comes with a manual...

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    @flightnurse‌ - and confirming all of this can cost less then 600 US dollars -

    "The stage one I have on my car is a piggy back, and does not interact with the ECU. So BMW could download any and all data from the ECU but they will not be able to see the upgrade. It's a pretty slick upgrade. Since isn't not a reflash of the ECU, this is the issue with VW's if you chip a VW, VW's ECU knows that has happened."
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454

    A reporter would like to speak to an owner of a 2015 Audi A3. If this is you, and you'd like to share your story, please send your daytime contact info to pr@edmunds.com no later than Tuesday, 6/3/14 at 7 a.m. PT/10 a.m. ET.

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    edited June 2014

    See my post above. The ECU tracks the boost and logs overboost events. The JB4 is exactly what I had in my 135i, and they knew it even after I cleared all codes and removed it.

    Now, granted, he did not say "we know you have a jb4." He asked me. I asked why and he explained the above. I decided not to lie about it because 1) I'm not a jerk and 2) I could just imagine the amount of unnecessary work that could ensue if they were trying to stop a stock car from overboosting.

    This, of course, isn't the place for this discussion, but since it came up, I wanted to give fair warning.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217

    @sweendogy said:
    flightnurse‌ - and confirming all of this can cost less then 600 US dollars -

    "The stage one I have on my car is a piggy back, and does not interact with the ECU. So BMW could download any and all data from the ECU but they will not be able to see the upgrade. It's a pretty slick upgrade. Since isn't not a reflash of the ECU, this is the issue with VW's if you chip a VW, VW's ECU knows that has happened."

    I posted two links to the manufacture web page so read all about it.

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217

    @qbrozen said:
    See my post above. The ECU tracks the boost and logs overboost events. The JB4 is exactly what I had in my 135i, and they knew it even after I cleared all codes and removed it.

    Now, granted, he did not say "we know you have a jb4." He asked me. I asked why and he explained the above. I decided not to lie about it because 1) I'm not a jerk and 2) I could just imagine the amount of unnecessary work that could ensue if they were trying to stop a stock car from overboosting.

    This, of course, isn't the place for this discussion, but since it came up, I wanted to give fair warning.

    Again I think BMW knows what some people will do, they know about JB4, just because the ECU captures the over boost, it would be impossible for them wiggle out of warranty work unless they have hard evidence that something was added. How do you like the JB4 on the 135?

  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,175
    edited June 2014

    it would be impossible for them wiggle out of warranty work unless they have hard evidence that something was added.

    They don't have to wiggle out of it... "We show four examples of overboost, and now you have an internal engine failure and we deny your warranty claim".

    Unless your brother is a lawyer and works for free, you'll be out of luck. Don't get me wrong.. I wouldn't presume to suggest this is likely to happen. Just that your warranty won't be any good, if they can tie anything to your modifications. And, they don't have to "prove it". They can just refuse to fix it.

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited June 2014

    It's probably fine but as you all know, a turbo or supercharger will immediately exploit any unusual weakness inherent in the engine. You have maybe a higher mileage engine with a little weepiness in the head gasket? BOOM! That's gonna blow out of there. Carbonized engine? Bad tank of gas in your neighborhood? Not a good thing with over-boosted turbo.

    The reason that BMW sets the boost level where it does is, of course, so that the car maintains that nice balance of reliability, nice manners and decent performance. They compromise, in other words, on the side of longer life, stable idle, good mpg, etc. They are looking at the consequences from hundreds of thousands of cars, not just one.

    I don't practice what I preach. My MINI is jacked, too.

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    In looking at this I'm all for the 320- but would do a lot of research b4 strapping a performance mod even to a cheap lux sedan - 35k not a lot to spend on a car these days but I don't know if I could deal with the embarrassment of a blown engine and going to the dealership for replacement.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312

    @Mr_Shiftright said:
    It's probably fine but as you all know, a turbo or supercharger will immediately exploit any unusual weakness inherent in the engine. You have maybe a higher mileage engine with a little weepiness in the head gasket? BOOM! That's gonna blow out of there. Carbonized engine? Bad tank of gas in your neighborhood? Not a good thing with over-boosted turbo.

    The reason that BMW sets the boost level where it does is, of course, so that the car maintains that nice balance of reliability, nice manners and decent performance. They compromise, in other words, on the side of longer life, stable idle, good mpg, etc. They are looking at the consequences from hundreds of thousands of cars, not just one.

    I don't practice what I preach. My MINI is jacked, too.

    Hypertech's tune for the Mazdaspeed 3/6 is relatively safe because it doesn't push the small stock turbo past its limit of efficiency; I''ve only heard of one engine failure on a HT tuned car. This is almost certainly due to the fact that the tune cannot be modified by the end user- unlike the COBB AP or Versatune tuning devices; a little knowledge can prove to be very destructive...

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889

    I liked the jb4 a lot...when the car worked. Unfortunately, as shifty points out, tweaking a car will expose its weak points. In my 135, at least, those weak points were vanos solonoids, brakes, and very poor stock engine/trans cooling. Moments of fun with everything working in synch were brief, so I de-modded it and traded it before it got really expensive.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217

    @qbrozen said:
    I liked the jb4 a lot...when the car worked. Unfortunately, as shifty points out, tweaking a car will expose its weak points. In my 135, at least, those weak points were vanos solonoids, brakes, and very poor stock engine/trans cooling. Moments of fun with everything working in synch were brief, so I de-modded it and traded it before it got really expensive.

    Was the JB4 the only mod you did? So far I haven't had any issues with the car, and we are coming into summer, it was 110 today in Phoenix... I think the stage 1 is good enough. 220hp is just right for this engine.

  • justg0justg0 Member Posts: 70

    @qbrozen said:
    I liked the jb4 a lot...when the car worked. Unfortunately, as shifty points out, tweaking a car will expose its weak points. In my 135, at least, those weak points were vanos solonoids, brakes, and very poor stock engine/trans cooling. Moments of fun with everything working in synch were brief, so I de-modded it and traded it before it got really expensive.

    320i engine is basically the same as 328i, but de-tuned, so its a somewhat different scenario vs. boosting 135, which may already be or close to its limit. I am no expert on this, just an observation...

  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,175

    That could be true, except the 135i in stock tune isn't near it's limits, either.. BMW even offered a "Performance" upgrade that they could do at the dealership that bumped HP from 300 to 320. I think @graphicguy had that done..

    I also wouldn't surmise that the 328i and 320i engines are indentical, except for the software.. The 328i could have (probably has?) beefed up engine internals, to handle the extra power.

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  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665

    @kyfdx said:
    That could be true, except the 135i in stock tune isn't near it's limits, either.. BMW even offered a "Performance" upgrade that they could do at the dealership that bumped HP from 300 to 320. I think graphicguy had that done..

    I also wouldn't surmise that the 328i and 320i engines are indentical, except for the software.. The 328i could have (probably has?) beefed up engine internals, to handle the extra power.

    Yep...I did. At the time I had it done, they had a "special" on the upgrade ($600). I added a dealer coupon to it, and I think I ended up paying $200 for it. The good news there, it was covered by BMW's warranty. Don't know if they still offer that upgrade. Don't know why they wouldn't, though.

    As I look back, the situation that pushed me to get rid of it wasn't ideal. That's a car I wished I still had ('11 E92). Handled well....muscle car fast....comfortable....good looking.....didn't give me an ounce of trouble.

    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217

    @kyfdx said:
    That could be true, except the 135i in stock tune isn't near it's limits, either.. BMW even offered a "Performance" upgrade that they could do at the dealership that bumped HP from 300 to 320. I think graphicguy had that done..

    I also wouldn't surmise that the 328i and 320i engines are indentical, except for the software.. The 328i could have (probably has?) beefed up engine internals, to handle the extra power.

    There are some internal differences here is a URL that explain them

    f30driver.com/forum/showthread.php?t=966132

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    edited June 2014

    I ran JB4 by itself for a while. (Then camber plates.) It was Ok for a few months, then started triggering limp mode once a week or so. Dealer replaced coils, plugs, and fuel pump (this was the car's second fuel pump) across 3 different trips for the limp mode problem. Seemed OK for a little while again.

    After 1 track event where the car was plagued by overheating, I added a custom larger oil cooler and downpipes (thought maybe deleting the cats from so close to the engine could help with heat). But then the vanos solenoid problems began. While on my 3rd set of those, the car started making some very disturbing but faint noises from down deep within, so I gave up, quickly removed the downpipes and tuner, and traded her in. Total ownership period was 18 months.

    With the JB4 by itself, I think they were claiming 340-350 hp, IIRC. With the DPs, it should have been somewhere in the 370hp range. Some folks were pushing far more through the N54 engine, but I didn't feel the need for that much. It was damned quick, and a great deal of fun when running right. I'm pretty sure, even in stock form, though, it wouldn't have been a reliable car in the long run.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,432

    Hey Q, how is the mustang? Still fun and bulletproof? Any mods?

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    edited June 2014

    Its good. Zero issues (but only 9k miles). Still LOVE the sound of it and its damned fast, but can hardly ever get on it. I'm jonesing to track it, but just can't take the time or money to do so.

    Funny enough, my experiences with the 135 have put me off modding for the time being. Not that I blame the mods... guilt by association, I guess. My biggest challenge with the stang is traction. Even with the widest summer tires I could squeeze on the stock wheels (255s), it just smokes them at will. I would LIKE to do the BAMA tune, which is cheap and easy (OBD2 interface for under $400) and adds a fair bit of power for an NA engine (claimed 31hp/37tq) along with a pair of Outlaw mufflers ... but it all has to wait. Wider wheels should be first on the list and I don't have the $$ to spare at the moment with the family vacation looming in August.

    BUT, we are way off topic. haha. I was behind an S60 this morning for a moment...I gotta admit, I think that might be my current top choice for ELLPS these days. Maybe I could get the wife one after the Leaf lease is up.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,432

    I love the S60. And V60. really want to test drive one next month when I take the S40 in for it's annual service. Might not be a good idea, since no way I can afford it now!

    the new 2.0 4 sounds like a great engine. And love the seats, and the style (interior especially) just feels right to me. Guess I am an understated elegance type of guy!

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217

    Car and Driver have been posting archived test reports from yesteryear. This one today was of the original AMG Hammer here is the URL for the article. It is a very interesting read.. I truly believe this car started the manufacture tuner wars.

    caranddriver.com/reviews/mercedes-benz-amg-hammer-archived-test-review

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    @qbrozen‌ - like your style all over the place on cars- blown 135, mustang in hyper blue, wife drives a Leaf- and loving the v60. Impossible to make out this pattern of cars, or what could come next.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889

    ha. Yup, that's me. Ownership history includes 37 vehicles from 19 different manufacturers and with 10 different vehicle types (roadster, 4-seat convertible, sedan, etc).

    Its all part of my addiction.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373

    @sweendogy‌

    ** "Impossible to make out this pattern of cars, or what could come next"**

    The question isn't WHAT will come next, it is WHEN will it come;), right @qbrozen ?

    We have a support group here on edmunds

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310

    @nyccarguy hahaha- how's the prelude? How many miles on the 13-14 year old rig?

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343

    Miss a Few Days and You Miss a Lot!

    Well I last posted on May 29. Whew! I think I am finally caught back up on the reading of the many -- mostly very good -- posts.

    I have some take-aways that comes from speed-reading about 60 posts AFAP:

    1. Talking with specificity about cars you haven't driven is like critiquing a movie after only seeing the trailers -- that's a good one, I will be swiping that with great enthusiasm and some frequency.

    2. Going on and on about how a 5, 10, 15 year old or older car and proclaiming it is better than the current crop must've been said/written sarcastically or perhaps ironically. Not that everything new is better, but, well as a general rule things (like cars) have tended to be better along with the passage of time.

    3. Stick shifts are great, "no one" buys them anymore because: see #2. Oh, somewhere I read that even in cars -- like the ELLPS's -- that actually do offer stick shifts, the take-up by actual paying customers continues to shrink and it is something less than 3% or perhaps 2%. Now that I have, in my garage, a 7-speed dual-clutch and an 8-speed tiptronic, I know the reason. If the best of breed 8-speed doesn't "shift your opinion" well today's 7-speed dual-clutch certainly will be virtually irresistible.

    4. Some folks here will correctly note that they can option load-up a non-ellps car, note that it meets or beats the "fill-in-the-blank" ellps in content, performance and the big one, price and apparently end with an implied "so how 'bout them apples" or "so there!"

    Continuing:

    In my experience "people need those stinkin' badges!"

    To make a, or perhaps "the" point: My MontBlanc pen uses a 3 or 4-dollar refill, the same one used in some other really "way less expensive" (I'll say) pens. In the same spirit, my Tag watch doesn't tell time any better than my $750 Swiss Army Watch I got at Macy's. That's not the point -- well, OK, it may be ONE point, but it's the overall "certain something" that makes luxury goods, well, hmm, "worth more." Once I get over "needing" a white and blue roundel or four interlocking rings, etc, well, I'll get a KIA of some sort.

    I like coming back after a few days to see how we've advanced the discussion here.

    I'm really gonna try to test drive more cars, 'cause y'all are BRUTAL!

    DILYL

    B)

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    The value of a money I guess means different things to different people. Acura at one time was a superior value to other lux cars and offered performance- still does-- now the mainstream cars, many of which use the same components as lux siblings cost thousands less and similar performance but I guess should not be compared because of a badge. 750 Macy watch sounds good to me, my timex just broke.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    edited June 2014

    I do like, very much, my Victorinox Swiss Army watch -- I think it, in some ways, looks nicer than the Tag. But, the thing is, the Victorinox is not a "luxury" watch. A new Malibu LTZ (a very attractive looking car), is also not an Infiniti, Lexus, BMW, Audi, Mercedes -- it even doesn't fit in the same class as the Volvo S60.

    We're here -- well some of us are -- in ELLPS land perhaps because we "choose" not to buy/lease an LPS automobile. Perhaps some of us -- as Alfred Sloan imagined -- would start with a Chevy and aspire to a Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Buick and ultimately a Cadillac. I suspect Sloan is the father of the term "aspirational" as it applied to cars.

    We're here, I'll bet, because we either aspire to an ELLPS, have an ELLPS and aspire to an LPS or are just car-nuts who know the good stuff comes from Audi, BMW, Infiniti, etc.

    I was wondering today when the last time I saw a Phaeton was -- years ago is all I could come up with. Saw several A8's today, however. I test drove a Phaeton (way back when) which was seriously discounted and sub-vented (and as a reminder I owned an A8) thinking I could get a "new A8" for a fraction of the cost by going with the Phaeton. The Phaeton was, closed eyes, an A8. Same sweeeet 4.2L V8, quattro (well, you know) etc. I just couldn't bring myself to pull the trigger -- probably the biggest bargain I'll ever see. Damn HUGE-[non-permissible content removed] "VW" emblem on the thing.

    Instead of the bargain it probably was, I knew I would be thinking, "I paid THIS MUCH for a VW?!? What was I thinking?"

    You know I still think if you can't or won't go with an S4, the next best thing is the Acura TL SH-AWD Advance (and I assume the TLX is even better). Even my non-car loving friends called my TL "a Honda." Slamming the tinny doors was just enough of a confirmation of that notion to remind me that the Acura brand had slipped from Premium status.

    My wife collects pens -- I have perhaps four or five (that were gifts from her) -- I probably would not go out and buy a new 4-figure MontBlanc, but I do notice when I see Brian Williams use one on the air. My MontBlancs (3 of them) are all the pens I need (one of them broke and I had to send it to Germany to get it fixed -- seems as good as new). My wife must get 6 new pens per year. I sort of get it. Until her current car (the SQ5 Prestige), she liked cars, but wasn't really "passionate" about them.

    Get this, for about 15 minutes she actually considered a Subaru -- which was pretty nice, but kind of trucky and not at all luxurious or even terribly sporty. I knew she would love the price and by the time she needed her second tank of gas would be "praying for the end of time" (Meat Loaf).

    Now, however, she is "into cars" and is unlikely to aspire to anything other than an Audi or a BMW -- I can't see reverse aspiration being a viable option (for her or for most people, in fact).

    Anyway, this collection of ELLPS cars is perhaps the most exciting and "strokable" lot in all of cardom. It is here that we see innovation (often before the LPS offerings, even from the same brand), performance and often a huge leap up from even the top of the next lower line.

    Remember the Phaeton, long live the Phaeton.

    You know how to drive it . . . .

    ;)

  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181

    In other words......you get what you pay for. On paper a decked out Hyundai Sonata Turbo has the power, leather, panoramic moonroof, fancy bells and whistles that most of these ellps have but every switch, piece of leather. undercarriage part, latch, hinge, carpet etc etc is cheap compared to these cars. Other mainstream brands may be a little better but still don't approach the luxury brands. The dealer experience is not the same either. I had an Infiniti and have an Acura but have had tons of non-luxury brands and the dealer experience is much different. Yes, you pay for it but that is my point.

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited June 2014
    Funny you mention the phaeton - what's the view on the genesis (k900)- or was the vw to early to this party- or better yet was the vw to costly to begain with-or does the Kia not work because of the badge. vw started at 60 and went to 100k -had issues with reliability and was not marketed well, but as mentioned here as they might redo it for sale. - so maybe not totally forgotten.
    http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1079049_is-the-timing-right-for-a-lower-cost-volkswagen-phaeton-in-the-u-s

    While the posts are long and take swipes you add no real value when you dive into the pens and watches, Brian Williams- 4 figure mont blonc . Ellps "stokeable"? Really.- come on enuf of the better then now stuff- the title of the segment is entry level - so dollars make sense - enjoy the 1k pens - some of us like bics and would spend the extra 1k on a upgraded radio.

    Check back next month

    Drive this
  • billyperks4billyperks4 Member Posts: 57

    You got serious issues man- not sucking up to Mark, I dont see anything wrong with a little humor.

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217

    @billyperks4 said:
    You got serious issues man- not sucking up to Mark, I dont see anything wrong with a little humor.

    IF one doesn't have humor, how are they suppose to get it?

  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681

    @flightnurse said:
    IF one doesn't have humor, how are they suppose to get it?

    I actually found the rant pretty humorous...it's probably because I'm immature but I have a chuckle when I see people go off :)

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    edited June 2014

    Sween,

    Small correction, I used the term "strokable" in my post, I'm not sure how it got translated to "stokable" -- I meant, by strokable, cars that are as described in the next post by 'm6user' who continued and gave an additional example of the point. Also it was a rip-off of a Wayne's World throwaway line by Mike Meyers.

    Also, yes, these are entry-level LPS cars and they can be less expensive than the next step up. However, many if not all of these ellps cars can be easily optioned to numbers beginning with a 5 or a 6. So while it is true that ellps customers -- and want to be customers -- may be somewhat budget minded (since they're not shopping further up the MSRP scale, apparently) folks that shop and buy these vehicles are looking for "better" and/or "more" and/or a pretty hefty step up in luxury features and perceived quality of materials.

    OK, the forum is about cars, not other luxury goods -- perhaps the analogies and some poorly written or expressed sarcasm or irony are misplaced. In response to the shopper who configures a Ford Taurus SHO and then remarks the "fill in the blank" ellps or lps isn't worth the extra $X-thousands, I had hoped the point would be punctuated by examples in other areas, e.g., outdoor grills, pens and watches. Some folks only buy Rolex's (not me, FWIW) and some see not one bit of extra value in a Rolex when they can have a far less expensive timepiece, etc, etc. Some folks wouldn't pay $1,000 more for an upgraded audio system in their new Mercedes C -- but might spring for the MontBlanc.

    If someone wants to "prove" than a Subaru WRX is the equivalent of or superior to a BMW 335 X-drive, by configuring both "similarly" and then citing some performance stats, well have at it. The WRX, for all I know, may actually out-accelerate the Bimmer and so on -- but that doesn't make the Subie an ellps or lps by any stretch.

    Anyway, if the grills, pens and watches analogies don't track, I'll endeavor to minimize such transgressions.

    I do not, however know what "enuf of the better then now stuff" means. These cars, I think we all mostly agree, are better "now" than "then." I guess several of the reviews of the Q50 have suggested that it did not improve upon the G37 -- which may be what you were referring to.

    We may all have our definitions of ellps or even luxury for that matter, which is why I say, most of the time, "Drive it like you live. . . ."

    ;)

  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,684

    We appear to be a verbose, well-educated, fair and friendly bunch. I enjoy this topic, and topics in a similar vein. Watches and cars are a bit related, as several car mfgs and watch mfgs have affiliations, e.g. Breitling/Bentley, Porsche Design, Ferrari/Girard Perregaux. Heuer and racing. Heck, Autoweek regularly writes articles about watches for drivers and regarding auto affiliations.

    Just my humble opinion, but these forums should be fun and informative. Marktheredsbengal's posts generally are just that.

    I like cars and watches, epecially my IWC, Omega, Tag Heuer and Seiko. Even my ShopNBC sourced Invictas! And, yes, I would love a Rolex Cosmograph Daytona, if anyone would like to give me one...

    Drive it like you enjoy life!

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,498
    edited June 2014

    @laurasdada said:
    Drive it like you enjoy life!

    Indeed.

    If one enjoys life, much of what goes on here is perfectly acceptable, especially Mark's verbose missives (which he's been posting for far longer than those who keep this particular board's numbers up). I've been reading his posts for well over a decade and generally find them enjoyable and/or useful.

    Skip the stuff you don't like. Read the stuff you do. Make comments that don't piss people off.

    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited June 2014
    Marks comments stand on own, you can love them or question them- I generally love his posts and they usually add something. He's long at times and trys hard to explain things in verbose commentary which is his style. The ego driven explanation on LUx is nothing but rude, well educated in writting sure but let's be real- no one needs to know about the 4 1k pens one ones .maybe he was "stroking" his ego.- I understand people here are drawn to badges, I'm a city person who grew up in a modest environment and we are on an ELlps forum- this is not a BEntley forum- the category started with value oriented lux performance cars, entry level. From post One on this board I have always stressed the dollar as being a major factor when comparing cars, research and overall drive as well. That's why I don't understand the puppet mentality of some who just follow the badge.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    edited June 2014

    I would suggest, perhaps even argue, the dollar becomes progressively less of a major factor when we move into any incarnation of the Premium or Luxury class (especially where cars are concerned). Folks -- generally speaking -- don't shop for ellps or lps cars with much consideration for budget (however, even when buying an ellps, I assume we all stipulate $X dollars for the purchase -- of our new 3 series or new IS 350, etc). I would hope we all want to get the most we can for our dollar, and I assume we do. If, however, you want to spend less, it is quite possible to move down a rung and get, for instance, a Chrysler 300 -- and there is NOTHING wrong with that.

    The reason the Escalade (for example) exists is because there are folks who are very happy to pay for the Caddy over the lesser GM offerings that lack the Wreath and Crest. Of course there are substantive differences (between the Cadillac and the GMC for instance), but if you read the profits story you know the margins ARE much higher the more you climb the lux/premium/ellps/lps ladder.

    Perhaps the luxury goods represent a lesser "value" since they have higher profit margins -- but I'll wager if fill in the blank produces yet another vehicle with breathtakingly expensive MSRP's there will probably be no shortage of takers. Who would have thought an X6 would have a market -- well, not me. And, much as I love Audis, I test drove -- back to back -- an A6 and an A7 and until I opened the glove box and found the stack of bills, I kept hunting for the $10,000 premium the A7 commanded.

    They can't keep the A7's in stock. If you had any concern about price for content, there would be far fewer A7 sales "if you axe me!"

    I have a few "expensive" pens (gifts from my wife, to repeat), I "appreciate" them, but would not buy them for myself. Like laurasdada, I see the "value" of the Omega or the IWC or the Tag, I also appreciate the Invicta and the Swiss Army -- in sum this particular forum is less about "budget" or "value" or "MSRP" than it is about folks who "aspire" to "the next step up the ladder."

    Of course, I am often wrong, but seldom uncertain.

    ;)

    To anyone who interprets anything I say as being rude either in intention or execution, I apologize. Like I said, you guys (not gender defining) are brutal.

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217

    Mark's writing reminds me of a friend, when he told a story he took the long way to get to the point, which I kind of like.

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162

    In other, words people buy what they want. They don't care if other people don't think that "it" is worth the price. Conversely, other people cannot even comprehend why somebody would buy something like filltheblank because there is another filltheblank just as good (in their eyes, anyway) and cheaper. And it's all good.

    There is another type of discussion we have here constantly - does filltheblank belong to ELLPS? Honestly, I don't really understand why people get so worked up if it does, or does not. Many people would cross shop cars that are not the same "category", so what... The line will always be blurred and they move. Yesterday's luxury is today's standard. Yesterday's benchmark of sportiness (like manual transmission) is becoming so rare that it's impossible to use as an actual measuring stick. Prices go up incessantly, so yesterday's 30K car is today's 40K. And so on. If somebody cross shops Ford Focus ST or Subaru WRX/STI with BMW 328i and somebody else cross-shops Lexus ES (not even IS) with same BMW, who am I to say they are "wrong" about looking at them? They'll choose what they like at the end, it may not be ELLPS, but who cares.

    I say something much more revolutionary - ELLPS is dead, there is no ELLPS. There is bunch of former ELLPS, but they got so diverse that it's too wide. Some lost "Entry Level" pricing (long time ago, I might say), others lost performance, others went beyond "Entry Level" luxury. Then bunch of outsiders got to the 0-60 and horsepower game, keeping to horses on front wheels, but hey, it's still 250+ horses. There is also a small breed of AWD (some are FWD) bandits that are "too small" or don't have enough "stuff", but 30 years ago "real" ELLPS were just their size, had lesser 0-60, slalom time, crank windows, cloth seats and nobody was ranting they were no ELLPS. Just saying...

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217

    Mid last year on a flight from Detriot to Miami my seatmate struck up a conversation with me regarding cars (I have all of the car mag's on my iPad.) His questions were odd, but focused. He asked what kind of car I had, when I told him none at moment, asked why, and if I'm in the market for a car. After about 20 minutes I asked him what he did. Come to find out he works for Intellishop, then we started talking about mystery shoppers and such. He asked if I would be interested in being a mystery shopper, but declined, but knew someone who would, Rick. We talk about him and my seatmate was happy. So for the past year Rick been a mystery shopper for Intellishop, this is where the testing of cars come from. It's been interesting so far the Kia K900 and E350 have been standouts, maybe not in the way you think.

    K900 is a home run, but the biggest issue is getting people who can afford a $66K car to come into the dealer or think about Kia.

    E350, the saleman was the worst but the car he showed us was absolutely stunning, the color combo worked on the car. That is the only positive thing Rick said about the whole MB experience. We weren't even offered a test drive, and haven't driven a E class in several years I was looking forward to it.

    In regards to cross shopping, the Kia dealer ask this when we looked at the Cadzena and K900, no other dealer ask this question.

    The interesting thing about Intellishop is you have a "script" already going into the dealership, and a certain car to look at. At the MB dealer, we had to look at the E350 "gas" so the new E350 Bluetec was out of the question, but really want to test drive this car...

    This whole debate on what is and isn't a ELLPS is really a subjective thing, just like in the medical word, pain is a subjective. I had patients who would complain of the worse pain of their life, but couldn't keep theirs eyes open because of the heavy doses of pain medications they were on...

    I'm with Dino, the ELLPS is dead, since one can buy a $27K hatchback that does 0-60 in the same time as a car that cost twice as much from the homeland.

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310

    I think this 30 sec clip explains everything

    http://youtu.be/P6TXTV3tpRU

    And @flightnurse does the intellachoice gig pay?

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    edited June 2014

    Inellishop pays but not that well, for the amount work they require it's a joke. Rick enjoys it and so do I when I have time to go with him' Perception is everything, but status is another. As I wrote the K900 has everything anyone would want in a luxury car except the name.

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Didn't see you comment on the k900 besides saying it was a home run, but you have to agree Morpheus has a huge point here- which key do you choose flight?

    it's like buying watches do you need the Tag if you have 3k when you can get a macys watch for 750 (with coupons less) and that said watch for 750 actually looks and performs better then a 3k tag? They both have the same warrantee - sure the dealer experience could be better at the tag dealer - but most people would rather not spend time at a dealer, unless they are getting paid.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217

    The K900 is NOT a sports sedan lets get that out first. The K900 (which I really hate the name) was impressive, the 5 liter V8 has plenty of power and has a nice rumble to it, but nothing too loud, just enough to let you know it's there. The 8 spd transmission is the same unit in BMW (but of course gearing and software differences) shifts very smoothly and never had a problem with that. The Kia dealer came to our house with it (this was part of the scrpit from Intillishop) and the salesman (specially trained to sell K900s) was very good explaining the car to us, and he used certain "key phrases" when pointing features of the car. So just driving around town, the V8 is right in the smack of it's torque band. Merging onto the freeway the K900 moves well, but not as well as one would think with 420hp. The K900 is not a rocket ship, it can move if needed. Head room, leg room, hip room is bigger then a 5 series, it's more inline with a 7 series, but with a mid level 5 series price tag. The Nappa leather was supple, soft and felt very rich. Fit and Finish was first rate, everything was though of and placed perfectly. IF you are looking for a luxury car not much of a sports sedan then the K900 would be well worth the look. As I stated it is a home run, but not a grand slam....

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    Don't you think a person's definition of "performance" or "luxury" really is based on where they are starting from in their particular experience level?

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Got it- so a k900 is not a sports sedan- it's probably closer to a Lexus ls type of rig.

    Is the 320 a luxury sedan then?
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217

    @sweendogy said:
    Got it- so a k900 is not a sports sedan- it's probably closer to a Lexus ls type of rig.

    Is the 320 a luxury sedan then?

    I would put the K900 and Equus into the Lexus type vehicle as well as the Genesis and Cedenza. Given how far the Koreans have come and these vehicles are the first of their type, the Koreans studied the play books very well.

    Now Luxury is subjective, is the 320i as luxurious as say Ricks Genesis, NO. Is the 320i a luxury sedan compared to a Kia Forte, Yes.
    If someone goes from a Mid-level Atlima SV to a 320i they might say the 320i is more luxurious. I don't think you will ever see BMW ever advertise the 320i as a luxury sedan, even with Premium Package, Nav, Xenon lights, I would call it a Entry Level Luxury sedan. Just as you can't call the Genesis or Cedenza a Entry Level Luxury Sedan. Because of their price.

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217

    @Mr_Shiftright said:
    Don't you think a person's definition of "performance" or "luxury" really is based on where they are starting from in their particular experience level?

    Absolutely my comment to Sweeny answers this.

    Kia will have a hard time getting people who own BMW's, Audi's, Lexus and MB to come into their dealership to look at the K900, the perception would be, the K900 isn't to the level of the Germans, but if one looks deep enough they will find out that they are. it would hard for a MB owner to see themselves driving a Kia.

    I think Kia and Hyundia have a big uphill battle to deal with, it might have been for them to take a play out of Honda, Toyota and Nissan and make a luxury Brand outside of Kia and Hyundia. Mazda was going to have Amati as their luxury brand and didn't go through with it, I think this is why you wont see a 50-60K Mazda, Getting people to spend that kind of money for Mazada will be tough, very tough.

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