Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations

oldfarmer50 · June 2014

"...Both the manager and buyer signed it as did I as a witness.

So I think I got that covered. If for any reason, upon delivery of the car, the vehicle is unacceptable, the deal collapses, so to speak...."

Boy things have change since the old days.

Back in 1974 when I accompanied my then girlfriend to buy her Charger I was told some horror stories about how cars are banged up in transport and then patched up and sold to buyers without disclosure.

I asked the salesperson to sign a statement to the effect that this car had not been damaged in transit. He angrily refused and acted insulted that I would dare ask this. Always wondered what he was hiding.

oldfarmer50 · June 2014

Craigslist funny of the day:

Poor grandparents, no wonder they have medical bills if that's where they have their mortgage.

"on the road driven daily 99 ford taurus,silver, my grandparents are selling their car because of hospital bills and mortgage in the rears so im helping them find a new home for their car $1900 o.b.o come and test drive asap
ask for junior"

abacomike · June 2014

@oldfarmer50 said:

"I asked the salesperson to sign a statement to the effect that this car had not been damaged in transit. He angrily refused and acted insulted that I would dare ask this. Always wondered what he was hiding."

When I was in the business between 2000 and 2009, the dealer had to divulge to the customer if their new vehicle had sustained $750 or more on damage prior to delivery. If under that amount, disclosure was not required. This requirement is a result of a statute requiring more than $750 in damage to be reported to the initial buyer of the vehicle.

For the years I was in the business, I came across just one of those cars which we decided to put into loaner service in the service department rather than sell it as a new vehicle with corrected damage.

ab348 · June 2014

@oldfarmer50 said:
Back in 1974 when I accompanied my then girlfriend to buy her Charger I was told some horror stories about how cars are banged up in transport and then patched up and sold to buyers without disclosure.

I asked the salesperson to sign a statement to the effect that this car had not been damaged in transit. He angrily refused and acted insulted that I would dare ask this. Always wondered what he was hiding.

In either 1983 or 1984 I saw a newspaper ad from one of the local Chrysler dealers with a screaming deal on a new Lebaron 2-door - the little K-car based one. One evening I went to see the car. They showed it to me and it didn't look bad - sort of a creamy yellow outside, half-vinyl roof, gold or tan interior, wire wheel covers, rather nice-looking. I took it for a drive and it was OK, nothing special - these were essentially K-cars with a bit more sound insulation and nicer trim, so it was a rather underwhelming drive, but nice enough given the pricing. I stopped in a shopping center parking lot under one of their light standards to look it over on the outside (it was dark by the time I drove it). Without a whole lot of effort I was able to see that the passenger side had been repainted - there was a tiny but of overspray in a few spots and it was missing the pinstripe that the other side had. Clearly the car had sustained damage.

It annoyed me that they hadn't mentioned this so I returned to the dealer and raised it with the salesman. He pleaded ignorance but could not explain the damage or tell me the extent. With that I lost all interest and left. Seems to me they would have been better off up-front coming clean about it rather than have a prospective buyer like me think that it could have had serious damage under the skin.

stever · June 2014

The upper limit on disclosure is relatively high in some states - Ohio, iirc, topped out at $6,000. Under that and the dealer had no obligation per state law to inform the buyer that repairs had been done. Some states may have no limit. I don't know how they could hide behind the law if you directly ask them about any repairs.

I'm not sure that $6,000 covers much these days although I recently saw a body shop advertising $699 paint jobs.

So, what can I do to sell you a brand new car today? Let me take it to my mechanic for a PPI.

stewardrobbins · June 2014

Why is it so difficult to find information on managing bookmarks? I deleted the old Stories one, but how do I add this one?
Does someone have a link?

stickguy · June 2014

At the top of the page, to the right of the thread title, there is a white star. Click that and it will turn yellow to indicate you have it bookmarked.

sterlingdog · June 2014

@imidazol97 said:
Sterlingdog

Oh yes, the XLT that I was driving had the power mirrors. The truck cost $40,500 and isn't one of the cheaper XLTs. It has that 320A luxury package on it. I may just buy it and park it on the street. I do love that particular truck. My contractor is coming in the morning so that we can discuss the garage pillar situation. Wish me luck.

Richard

sterlingdog · June 2014

@houdini1 said:

Great minds run in the same channels. I saw one of those at church Sunday and was pondering the idea. It's just that I've always loved those F150s. I'm afraid to settle for less and be disappointed later. At my age, may as well get what I want.

Richard

stickguy · June 2014

Can't you park in the driveway in front of the garage?

Plus,with the open slit, you can buy a convertible spirits car too!

sterlingdog · June 2014

@houdini1 said:

Wrong answer. I went in the garage with the mirrors wide open. I folded the mirrors inward before backing out, but scraped that right side mirror. My wife ,who was watching, thinks that I turned the steering wheel slightly as I was backing out which caused the mishap. As for the folding mirrors, I did them by hand. A friend told me that if you hold the power mirror button down for a few extra seconds, the mirror will actually fold in on its own. I would have to try that. Even if the mirrors weren't a problem, it's still a tight fit. I can barely get out on the driver's side because I have to move over so far to miss that brick pillar when I'm pulling in to the garage. We'll see what the contractor says in the morning.

Richard

sterlingdog · June 2014

@stickguy said:
Can't you park in the driveway in front of the garage?

Plus,with the open slit, you can buy a convertible spirits car too!

No, the driveway is too short and exits onto a side street because our house sits on a corner lot. If it wasn't for that brick pillar in the center, I would have plenty of room in the garage. If I can shave six inches off that pillar, I'll be in good shape. I'm staying optimistic.

Richard

laurasdada · June 2014

@stewardrobbins said:
Why is it so difficult to find information on managing bookmarks? I deleted the old Stories one, but how do I add this one?
Does someone have a link?

Look for the "Star" symbol to the right of the forum title. Select the star, it should turn gold, siginifying you've now bookmarked this thread.

explorerx4 · June 2014

@sterlingdog, just build a nice doghouse for your soon to be new truck. Problem solved.

sterlingdog · June 2014

@explorerx4 said:
sterlingdog, just build a nice doghouse for your soon to be new truck. Problem solved.

Just where would you suggest that I build this doghouse for the truck? The front of the house faces the main thoroughfare going downtown; the rear of the house is a formal garden and patio area with a brick wall and two fountains plus five large statues and mature trees and shrubs; one side of the house is on a side street and the other side is a neighbor. I suppose that I could ask my neighbor to give me part of his lot. Then again, I could build a parking garage on top of the house between the two chimneys. As I used to tell my new teachers, you need to think outside of the box.

Richard

bwia · June 2014

@sterlingdog said:
I suppose that I could ask my neighbor to give me part of his lot.

That is actually a great idea but with a twist. Instead of simply asking the neighbor for permission present them an offer to lease that small parcel of land for a reasonable fee. That way, you will have the legal and moral right to park your truck, without guilt or fear, should the neighbor decide to change his mind....I think its worth a shot. I gave that same advice to a friend once, and it worked.

oldfarmer50 · June 2014

@bwia said:

That is actually a great idea but with a twist. Instead of simply asking the neighbor for permission present them an offer to lease that small parcel of land for a reasonable fee. That way, you will have the legal and moral right to park your truck, without guilt or fear, should the neighbor decide to change his mind....I think its worth a shot. I gave that same advice to a friend once, and it worked.

OK, OK, I can see where this is going....

Richard can park his truck in my driveway. I'll even drive it every day so the tires stay round.

mako1a · June 2014

Here's a link to the refurb and sale of a 2000 M5 on Wheeler Dealers, a British car show. It's 42 mins and well worth a look see (in my opinion).bing.com/videos/search?q=Wheeler+Dealers+BMW&form=VQFRVP&first=1#view=detail&mid=9D241E373BF125236F499D241E373BF125236F49

abacomike · June 2014

@mako1a said:

"Here's a link to the refurb and sale of a 2000 M5 on Wheeler Dealers, a British car show. It's 42 mins and well worth a look see (in my opinion)"

I watch that show every week. Great car repair, diagnostics and restoration show. They broadcast on cable - the Velocity Channel.

jayrider · June 2014

@abacomike said:
mako1a said:

"Here's a link to the refurb and sale of a 2000 M5 on Wheeler Dealers, a British car show. It's 42 mins and well worth a look see (in my opinion)"

I watch that show every week. Great car repair, diagnostics and restoration show. They broadcast on cable - the Velocity Channel.

Love the show too --- they never figure Edd China's labor into any of the projects -- still enjoy the banter. I wonder if the cars are pre-sold --- seems a stretch to rely on real car selling action. Then of course, there is no way to know if the car actually sold. Call me a cynic when it comes to reality tv.

Mr_Shiftright · June 2014

"; the rear of the house is a formal garden and patio area with a brick wall and two fountains plus five large statues and mature trees and shrubs"-------okay, there's your spot to build!

Or could get rid of that useless extra bedroom. Priorities, man, priorities!

sterlingdog · June 2014

If my wife even thought that I was entertaining the idea of a truck in the formal garden area, I wouldn't live long enough to drive it. It's taken me years to even bring her around to the idea of purchasing one. My contractor came by this morning to see what could be done about the brick pillar. Being a main support for one of the walk-up attics, he is doubtful that we can make the pillar any more narrow. He's calling in a brick contractor to get a second opinion. The garage opening has two steel beams for support but the brick pillar is also needed to some extent. The drama continues.

Richard

Mr_Shiftright · June 2014

Hmmm...if that brick pillar isn't supported by a steel tube inside it's not doing very much of anything, seems to me.

fezo · June 2014

Wow. You're 14 pages in before I found it. If you want to hear about my trip (just back) with my daughter - just home an hour ago - to Cooperstown and new health devolopments (well sort of the opposite) check the end of the old topic.

explorerx4 · June 2014

@sterlingdog Maybe the brick pillar can be notched out and you can call it an architectural detail.

abacomike · June 2014

@fezo said:

"Wow. You're 14 pages in before I found it. If you want to hear about my trip (just back) with my daughter - just home an hour ago - to Cooperstown and new health devolopments (well sort of the opposite) check the end of the old topic."

Sorry to hear about the infection, fezo. Keep us updated once you see the doc on July 1st. Need to get some platelets, that's for sure. Get well soon.

stever · June 2014

Bummer, so you didn't make it to the UP at all this trip? We only plan to be here two more months @fezo - after that you'll have to get out to NM.

fezo · June 2014

We're still (as of now) planning on being there! We are leaving here (barring funny biz from doc) on July 13. I'll have to keep you posted during the trip but a ride through the Soo Locks is definitely in the plans.

oldfarmer50 · June 2014

Hey Fezo, were you up at Cooperstown the same day as the president? That day I was doing a bus run near the Albany airport and got to see the C-17 that carries his limos.

stever · June 2014

@fezo, oh, k, got my months backward, d'oh. I have to bug out on 7/21 for a few days but otherwise should be here.

roadburner · June 2014

Well, it looks like persistent rain/t-storms will keep me from reviving the Speed Triple and installing the rear bar on the Mazdaspeed.

ab348 · June 2014

I mentioned that I had the Regal to the dealer for service last Monday and they recommended an air filter change for $92. I passed.

So today I went to the neighborhood parts store and picked up the filter, a Fram, for $16.50. Replacing it involves loosening a half-dozen Torx screws (thankfully I had the bit) and freeing up a couple of clips. The original filter was made in France but looked identical to the new Fram otherwise.

Here's what cheesed me off: when the car was at the dealer I paid for the extra service that involves checking filters and fluids, oiling hinges, making sure bulbs aren't burned out, rotating tires, etc. I know its a profit pack for them but I don't mind that, at least I get some peace of mind. This is where they found the air filter needed changing, and in fact they said it had bugs and twigs in the housing. At $92, I passed.

Today when I did it I found removing the lid on the housing was the toughest part. I guess GM determined its cheaper to use 6 Torx-head screws than a few spring clips, but they are time-consuming and there are still a couple of plastic clips you have to wrestle with. But finally I popped it off and removed the air filter. This is what pissed me off: the twigs and bugs were still there! After going through all the trouble to remove the housing at least he could have blown some compressed air into it to get rid of the debris. But instead they wanted to charge me the time to again remove the housing and then replace the filter. Ridiculous. I really should write a letter to the dealer principal. If they had paged me when he found the junk in the housing and said , "You need a new air filter, the part is (say) $30" I would have said yes. But not at $92. Greedy bas*ards.

oldfarmer50 · June 2014

"...greedy bas*ards..."

They have to pay for all those recalls and lawsuits somehow.

imidazol97 · June 2014

@ab348 said:
I mentioned that I had the Regal to the dealer for service last Monday and they recommended an air filter change for $92. I passed.

@oldfarmer50 said:
"...greedy bas*ards..."

They have to pay for all those recalls and lawsuits somehow.

I don't believe for a second that a costly engine air filter change is unique to General Motors dealers. Especially it has nothing to do with the thorough recalls and lawsuits. To suggest that something at a dealer store is due to recall cost and lawsuits, is wrong: those are cost items the companies, Audi, toyota, Lexus, Honda, VW, Tesla, Hyunkia, all carry, not he dealer's service departments.

Price an engine filter change at your favorite dealership? Those are viewed as add on items and are profit centers. Ask about a cabin filter change cost?

Better yet, price one at Jiffy Lube? Check out the price for a cabin air filter change as well.

A favorite technique is to show the naive customer a dirty oily filter and claim it's from their car when it's not theirs. They did not dig in to remove the customer's original. Then they charge for a new filter and change but don't replace the filter. It's "free" money.

roadburner · June 2014

OEM Air Filter Element Costs

2009 328i:$ 20.70
2004 X3 2.5: $14.21
1995 318ti: $17.52
2007 Mazdaspeed 3: $16.27
1999 Wrangler TJ 4.0: $9.08

I only use OEM filters; I just don't have a lot of confidence in Fram filters. Maybe my bias is unfounded, but the price delta just isn't large enough to sway me from going the OEM route.

abacomike · June 2014

@roadburner‌ said:

"I only use OEM filters; I just don't have a lot of confidence in Fram filters. Maybe my bias is unfounded, but the price delta just isn't large enough to sway me from going the OEM route."

Most people are oblivious to the critical importance of filters in the maintenance of the internal combustion engine. Oil filters have become increasingly important with the use of synthetic oils that stay in the engine 10-14 months. Fuel filters are just as important in order to filter out gasoline impurities. Air filters are critical in order to keep out contaminants from entering the engine during combustion.

Internal cabin air filters are essential to my health since I have asthma and I am super sensitive to air quality or the lack thereof.

When my car goes into Mercedes in November, I too insist on OEM filters as well as other parts. I believe Mercedes uses a Mobil 1 oil that is specifically designed for use in their vehicles.

stickguy · June 2014

Hey Oldfarmer, I was up in your neck of the woods Friday. Looking at apartment complexes, and we visited a few off Western in G'land. I think one was on Schoolhouse, one on Johnson, and another just past 155.

for various reasons he did not end up at any of them (he took a unit just down into Albany, but Buckingham pond). Nice area, and a whopping 2-2.5 miles to where he is working. But most important, it actually comes with a real garage spot! And when you have to be at work by 7, in the winter up there that can be a real time saver.

stever · June 2014

@abacomike, I'm not convinced that OEM filters offer any more protection than a Fram. (I'm half suspicious that Fram makes a bunch of OEM filters anyway).

My recently sold '99 Quest mostly got Frams and some kid is driving it to diesel school the next state over with 200k on it.

explorerx4 · June 2014

@stickguy, My daughter just signed a lease for an apt in Madsion, WI. I didn't go on the trip, figuring 1 less opinion was good. I did ask that they try to find a place with indoor parking, if possible. Although her Escape spent the last 2 winters outdoors, it's over 10 years old and inside parking should save some wear and tear on it, not mention the added convenience/security factor for my daughter.

imidazol97 · June 2014

@stever said:
abacomike, I'm not convinced that OEM filters offer any more protection than a Fram. (I'm half suspicious that Fram makes a bunch of OEM filters anyway).

The Champion company makes a lot of filters such as for Walmart's brand. I believe that quality companies also make the oils marketed under Supertech label for Walmart. I recall Honda had all their owners scared that if they didn't use the special Honda oil, the car wouldn't break in properly. It was simply an oil with a higher content of molybdenum IIRC, which you can pick from among various oils for yourself. But it had the Honda label so it was special?

stickguy · June 2014

Explorer, in the more budget end of apartments, a covered space (let alone a garage) is a rarity, but very nice to have in areas like that where the winter is severe. Unless you are downtown I guess, in a high rise that has a garage (my son got a garden apartment style, so most people park outside). The garage was an extra $30, which to me is a bargain!

stickguy · June 2014

The only thing with filters that worries me is that while the same company makes it for Wally World, they are doing it to a different price point and minimum specs. so the outside may look the same, but they may have cut corners on the inside. The oil if anything is more likely to be a straight relabel.

stuff like filters really don't cost much more at the parts counter, and you replace them so infrequently that an extra few $$ is not a big deal. I do however save money on the cabin filters buying them at Walmart!

oldfarmer50 · June 2014

"... To suggest that something at a dealer store is due to recall cost and lawsuits, is wrong..."

I should have used an emotorcon to show I was being sarcastic.

ab348 · June 2014

@imidazol97 said:
I don't believe for a second that a costly engine air filter change is unique to General Motors dealers. Especially it has nothing to do with the thorough recalls and lawsuits. To suggest that something at a dealer store is due to recall cost and lawsuits, is wrong: those are cost items the companies, Audi, toyota, Lexus, Honda, VW, Tesla, Hyunkia, all carry, not he dealer's service departments.

Oh, I agree, this had nothing to do with GM. This dealership group owns dealer operations for Toyota, M-B, Nissan, Hyundai, Kia, and god-knows what other makes here. I'm certain this is their service management policy. They have (or had) a decent reputation here, certainly better than their main competitor, but this is the second or third time they have disappointed me in the last 2 1/2 years.

My point is, I was already paying them $89 to do all these inspections, etc. The guy did the hard part of the job by removing the housing. He had the dirty filter in his hand. I know because what they described they saw is exactly what I saw. I was sitting 100 feet away in their lounge. They could have paged me and asked, and sold me an OEM filter at list price. But that $92 must include a hefty labor component, which I had already paid for.

As for OEM vs aftermarket, I am generally an OEM guy. I will only buy OEM wiper blades, and I prefer OEM oil filters, especially after that analysis years ago on the cheap state of Fram oil filters at the time (maybe they have improved since, I don't know). When I had my Intrigue with the Shortstar engine I bought a case of Delco oil filters for it, and I did the same for my '68 Cutlass. I know lots of folks with VWs, M-Bs, Hondas, etc that will only use the OEM oil filter and I have no issue with that. Air filters I am less concerned with. I figure if people are paying big bucks for K&N air filters that probably let more stuff into the engine, then an aftermarket air filter that looks and appears identical to the original which was not made by GM anyway probably will work fine. It was just the sales tactic in this case that irritated me.

oldfarmer50 · June 2014

@stickguy said:
Hey Oldfarmer, I was up in your neck of the woods Friday. Looking at apartment complexes, and we visited a few off Western in G'land. I think one was on Schoolhouse, one on Johnson, and another just past 155.

for various reasons he did not end up at any of them (he took a unit just down into Albany, but Buckingham pond). Nice area, and a whopping 2-2.5 miles to where he is working. But most important, it actually comes with a real garage spot! And when you have to be at work by 7, in the winter up there that can be a real time saver.

Near Buckingham pond, that sounds like Stonehenge Apts. What a co-inky-dink, on my summer bus run I'll be traveling Buckingham road every day. Tell him to be careful of swerving school buses.
http://www.stonehengegardens.com/Files/PropertyManager/Amenities/charming-apartments-by-lovely-buckingham-pond_search.jpg

Living in the city of Albany may not be the time saver he thinks as Albany's winter snow removal program is to wait until spring.

Also, if he can avoid rt. 85 to get to work he'll save on suspension repairs to his car. Try Western Ave. to Fuller. Slower but he won't feel like he drove through a naval gunnery range.

imidazol97 · June 2014

@oldfarmer50 said:
"... To suggest that something at a dealer store is due to recall cost and lawsuits, is wrong..."

I should have used an emotorcon to show I was being sarcastic.

I feel much better. Auto repair anywhere is a ripoff for far too many people, be
it dealer or local mechanic.

stever · June 2014

That filter housing "analysis" a while back was a joke. It's all about the media. Fram is owned by Reynolds (of aluminum fame) and they also happen to own some paper mills.

If Frams were so bad, the consumer protection agency would be all over them. (The consumer protection agency being, of course, the American Trial Lawyers Assn. ).

About the only OEM replacement part I'd really want on my car are the shocks.

imidazol97 · June 2014

@ab348 said:
As for OEM vs aftermarket, I am generally an OEM guy. I will only buy OEM wiper blades, and I prefer OEM oil filters, especially after that analysis years ago on the cheap state of Fram oil filters at the time (maybe they have improved since, I don't know).

Only their advertising has improved to try to make people "feel" better about their brand.

The bobistheoilguy analyses were good stuff. Wish someone would repeat them with more current materials. As for the oil filters, the more they use data in the advertising to make me feel guilty that I need to use their better filter, the less I react. Getting 99.1% of particles is great. I don't need to pay double or triple to get 99.6% of particles. The ones getting through are so small they don't matter.

Further, the oil filter matrix catches some particles that block some of the larger pores after time. The filter then becomes what the finer, smaller matrix of the higher-priced filter was at the start. So a used filter actually filters "better" because it will have a smaller average opening size. However, the downside is that the finer filter restricts the oil flow more. This in turn causes more of the oil to go to the bypass valve on the pump or the filter and circulate without being put through the filter material. This is more true with colder oil. So my logic is a standard Purolator filter is better for my car which is driven on a combo of short trip with colder oil and on longer drives with hot thin oil. I do buy the Purolator One which is a finer matrix for my Cobalt which gets only Pennzoil Platinum full synthetic and I change the oil once per year even though it doesn't make the mileage needed for a change.

stever · June 2014

@stickguy said:
The only thing with filters that worries me is that while the same company makes it for Wally World, they are doing it to a different price point and minimum specs. so the outside may look the same, but they may have cut corners on the inside.

Guess I'd better beware those Samsung phones and iPads Wally sells.

Just had my oil changed the other day (I've decided to retire from that job). Didn't even look to see what filter got put on; probably a Carquest. Guess I should go check for drips - that's the problem with having a good mechanic, you wind up trusting them implicitly.

jayrider · June 2014

@ab348 said:
I mentioned that I had the Regal to the dealer for service last Monday and they recommended an air filter change for $92. I passed.

Here's what cheesed me off: when the car was at the dealer I paid for the extra service that involves checking filters and fluids, oiling hinges, making sure bulbs aren't burned out, rotating tires, etc. I know its a profit pack for them but I don't mind that, at least I get some peace of mind. This is where they found the air filter needed changing, and in fact they said it had bugs and twigs in the housing. At $92, I passed.

GM dealers in the states include the multipoint inspection with the oil change. About $60. In fact, I can't remember when I had any oil change that didn't include a comprehensive print out for all systems. I still change my own air filter because it's one thing I can still do.

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