What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

stever · August 2014

It varies by region, but people are getting great deals on CR-Vs, per the forums here. Best around Boston, not so great in MN or WI.

ruking1 · August 2014

Diesel Lamborghini ? Coulda, woulda, shoulda?

http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/estoque-the-diesel-lamborghini-that-never-was-1615134006/+ballaban

I am not sure why I could not find the Tesla write up by Edmunds.com ON Edmunds.com, but here is a link.

http://jalopnik.com/edmunds-had-a-lot-of-problems-with-its-long-term-tesla-1613506903

Funny that diesel (and VW) would be DOA in the USA, if the replacement of the "first drive unit" happened only once !! ??? (Let alone a HPFP?)

A new but OLD trend? Interesting no mention of diesels role in better mpg?

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/suv-back-vogue-americans-rekindle-040114314.html

houdini1 · August 2014

@ruking1 said:
Diesel Lamborghini ? Coulda, woulda, shoulda?

http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/estoque-the-diesel-lamborghini-that-never-was-1615134006/+ballaban

I am not sure why I could not find the Tesla write up by Edmunds.com ON Edmunds.com, but here is a link.

That Edmund's write up on the Tesla was a long term wrap up. It was a terrible indictment and they would not recommend the car. Who would? However, on their regular review they gave a glowing report and on their rating scale, gave it the highest marks available "A". As long as a car is fast, Edmund's loves it. I think reliability is meaningless to them.

stever · August 2014

Even after all the problems people were lining up to buy the long term Tesla.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2014

People bought Maybachs, too, and Deloreans.

gagrice · August 2014

@stever said:
Even after all the problems people were lining up to buy the long term Tesla.

What should amaze people is just how many buyers have $100k to waste on a car to look sort of Green. Most are not fooled it is a rich man's toy pure and simple.

nyccarguy · August 2014

Fuel Economy Results Are in:

I reset my trip odometer on Saturday when I got home from work 2 weeks ago. 1582 miles in total. Week 1 we didn't go too far. 2 trips into NYC (Statue of Liberty & USS Intrepid), 1 amusement park (Lake Compounce) about 70 miles away, a day trip to Jones Beach, Long Island. Week 2 we ventured out of the tri-state (NY, NJ, CT) area to Sesame Place (Langhorne, PA), Hershey Park (Hershey, PA), then down to Rockville, MD to visit some family and back to our home in Southwestern, CT.

Here are my official FE results (let me knw if you'd like me to elaborate):

-18.63 mpg
-17.46 mpg
-18.08 mpg
-25.31 mpg

To keep this discussion on topic, I was following a Passat TDI with Colorado Plates on US Route 15 South between PA & MD. I'm sure he was getting at least double my average mpg.

@gagrice‌

Ha! Yes I know Audi makes a TDI Q7, but I could (not that I would) buy a 2 Pilots for what one of those cost. We are a family of 5 with young children (almost 8, almost 5 1/2, & 2 1/2). Space was obviously a major priority when we bought the Pilot a little over 3 years ago. It was the only 3 row SUV (at the time) with 3 sets of LATCH anchors across the 2nd row and an additional set of LATCH anchors in the 3rd row. Now our sons (the 2 older children) sit in high back booster seats while our daughter is in a Britax Marathon car seat with a 5 point harness.

Do we use the 3rd row? Yes. It comes in very handy. Last week on our trip to Lake Compounce, my in laws drove up from Long Island & we only had to take 1 car to the amusement park (I drove, FIL sat shot gun, wife, her Mom, & my daughter in the 2nd row, boys sat in the 3rd row). I still had room for a double stroller & a few bags full of towels, change of clothes, cooler bags for the day for 7 people. You just can't do that in a highlander.

My parents met us at Hershey Park. While our hotel was only a few miles away, it was just much more convenient to take 1 car to the park.

When the 5 of us are going somewhere & we want our 5 year old to fall asleep in the car, we sit him in the 3rd row. He conks out rather quickly when his little sister isn't trying to whack him & scream his name when he's falling asleep.

I've said this before about the Pilot. I didn't buy it for the fuel economy. I just wish the range was better. Something as big as the Pilot should have MUCH more than a 360 mile range.

gagrice · August 2014

@nyccarguy said:
Fuel Economy Results Are in:

I reset my trip odometer on Saturday when I got home from work 2 weeks ago. 1582 miles in total. Week 1 we didn't go too far. 2 trips into NYC (Statue of Liberty & USS Intrepid), 1 amusement park (Lake Compounce) about 70 miles away, a day trip to Jones Beach, Long Island. Week 2 we ventured out of the tri-state (NY, NJ, CT) area to Sesame Place (Langhorne, PA), Hershey Park (Hershey, PA), then down to Rockville, MD to visit some family and back to our home in Southwestern, CT.

Here are my official FE results (let me knw if you'd like me to elaborate):

-18.63 mpg
-17.46 mpg
-18.08 mpg
-25.31 mpg

I don't think you are going to find anything in a diesel to compete if you can get 25 MPG on the highway. Not for a fully equipped Pilot at $40k. GM and Ford offers comparable size, not mileage or price. I would say the Pilot has that segment tied up quite nicely. Too bad Honda does not offer a diesel in that model. I might even give it a shot.

nyccarguy · August 2014

That 25 mpg is by far my best tank. I was shocked & pleasantly surprised. Check me out on fuelly. My handle there is CTCARNUT. I haven't broken 20, ever.

stever · August 2014

"Motoring groups have accused the government of “betraying” drivers who have until now been given tax incentives to choose diesel vehicles over petrol ones, which contribute more to global warming."

More misery for diesel drivers (telegraph.co.uk)

(@gagrice, how's that $55k rich man's toy treating you? )

ruking1 · August 2014

@nyccarguy said:
That 25 mpg is by far my best tank. I was shocked & pleasantly surprised. Check me out on fuelly. My handle there is CTCARNUT. I haven't broken 20, ever.

19.87 mpg (4 tankfuls), if I did the math correctly. IF the 25.31 is indeed an outlier , then 18.06 mpg (3 tankfuls). What did you do different during that tankful? On the other hand, the 14 Honda Pilot lists 24 mpg H EPA. So in my mind, it should be easy to reach. Range is really a function of the mpg posting. So for example if you had the VW T's fuel tank 26.4 the range goes to 524 to 477. The VW T @ 32 mpg should post 845 miles.

gagrice · August 2014

@nyccarguy said:
That 25 mpg is by far my best tank. I was shocked & pleasantly surprised. Check me out on fuelly. My handle there is CTCARNUT. I haven't broken 20, ever.

Even 20 MPG is good for a 7-8 passenger 4WD vehicle on gas. A friend has an Acadia he really likes and rarely gets over 16 MPG. If VW can bring the CrossBlue TDI 7 Passenger AWD to market in that $40k price range, it would give the others some real competition.

ruking1 · August 2014

@stever said:
"Motoring groups have accused the government of “betraying” drivers who have until now been given tax incentives to choose diesel vehicles over petrol ones, which contribute more to global warming."

More misery for diesel drivers (telegraph.co.uk)

(@gagrice, how's that $55k rich man's toy treating you? )

AKA, one more EXTORTION scheme layer !

From the article, it is a blatant example of OPERATIVELY sanctioning burning of MORE (gassers @ app 30 to 65% MORE ) while professing to burning LESS and encouraging even MORE pollution while claiming to want less pollution @! Way to go UK !!

IS this the new opaque transparency? (higher costs per mile driven, one notable line item higher per mile driven TAXATION for diesel which actually uses LESS fuel !!

gagrice · August 2014

@stever said:
"Motoring groups have accused the government of “betraying” drivers who have until now been given tax incentives to choose diesel vehicles over petrol ones, which contribute more to global warming."

(@gagrice, how's that $55k rich man's toy treating you? )

I have never owned a vehicle I enjoyed driving as much as the Touareg TDI. I make up excuses to take drives, like going to Oceanside for a fish taco. It is such a pleasure to drive. I am right at 16k miles and it is not a year old yet. I don't think I have ever put 16k miles on a vehicle in one year before. Mine was just over $53k out the door. Now you would be lucky to get one for $60k OTD. And no more Zero Dn/0% interest either.

stever · August 2014

You can buy some darn good tacos with a Kia Rio in the stable too.

ruking1 · August 2014

@gagrice said:

I am not sure what the host is trying to imply with the reference to the $53k. BUT, one realistically needs to back out the more than 9% ($4,376) the governments make on ITS sale. It is an easy slam dunk to say the government makes more on the car than the cars oem food chain !!! Of the remaining $48.6k EASILY opaque taxation is easily ANOTHER 15% ($6,320) This would really be more like $42,304. I almost forgot the NON negotiable $ 800 to $950 transportation cost ($41,504), This is app 2 % . One hasn't even burnt a DROP of fuel yet.

Oh, even the fuel companies (ExxonMobil) will tell you the government makes huge percentages and volume more per gal of fuel than THEY do !!!!!! The corollary is they (fuel companies) DO make a LOT !!

stever · August 2014

Oh, that was in reference to buying a Tesla was just a rich man's toy. A Touareg is pretty rich for my blood.

fintail · August 2014

But right now, that's what it is. Probably never bought as a solitary car. Definitely bought by a subset of the socio-economic spectrum who has already been coddled by modern day policy.

Touareg doesn't get a nice fat tax break, nor should it (nor should a Tesla)...IMO, MSRP cut off for such subsidy should end around 40K. More trickle down at work.

@stever said:
Oh, that was in reference to buying a Tesla was just a rich man's toy. A Touareg is pretty rich for my blood.

fintail · August 2014

But the driving experience would make you want to call out for delivery, and they probably wouldn't be using a diesel

@stever said:
You can buy some darn good tacos with a Kia Rio in the stable too.

ruking1 · August 2014

@stever said:
Oh, that was in reference to buying a Tesla was just a rich man's toy. A Touareg is pretty rich for my blood.

Well, of course the silver lining is the USED vehicle market? I read this in an article in passing "the most EXPENSIVE car I ever bought was a "used and CHEAP" MB". (of the 600 hp and 780 # ft of torque type, 27k used sold new for 180,000)

http://www.thestreet.com/story/12831147/1/dodge-to-tesla-eat-your-heart-out.html?puc=yahoo&cm_ven=YAHOO

This will probably cause a lot of STEAM.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2014

I think you missed the point. It wasn't the amount of fuel wasted by idling, but the TYPE of emissions released that was being addressed (whether the science behind that is good or not, remains to be seen). Apparently, local UK officials consider NOX more dangerous than CO2 to public health on the local level (as opposed to the climate change issue) , because it is more reactive in the atmosphere, whilst C02 can be more readily absorbed.

@ruking1 said:
IS this the new opaque transparency? (higher costs per mile driven, one notable line item higher per mile driven TAXATION for diesel which actually uses LESS fuel !!

fintail · August 2014

Britainistan public sector needs extra revenue somehow - those pensions won't fund themselves, and the demographic mistakes aren't cheap either.

Of course, the untouchable authorities won't distinguish between dirty old commercial rigs and modern passenger cars.

@stever said:
"Motoring groups have accused the government of “betraying” drivers who have until now been given tax incentives to choose diesel vehicles over petrol ones, which contribute more to global warming."

More misery for diesel drivers (telegraph.co.uk)

(@gagrice, how's that $55k rich man's toy treating you? )

ruking1 · August 2014

@Mr_Shiftright said:
I think you missed the point. It wasn't the amount of fuel wasted by idling, but the TYPE of emissions released that was being addressed (whether the science behind that is good or not, remains to be seen). Apparently, local UK officials consider NOX more dangerous than CO2 to public health on the local level (as opposed to the climate change issue) , because it is more reactive in the atmosphere, whilst C02 can be more readily absorbed.

No ! the point was clear, but the other point was equally clear, gassers do cause more pollution. But like you say, it's ok. Just like I have said.

[Deleted User] · August 2014

Diesel Lamborghini ? Coulda, woulda, shoulda?

Just wait. With VW leading them by the hand in powertrain support I would be surprised if Lambo DIDN'T offer a diesel/Hybrid powertrain with over 1000 Lb-ft of torque, just to be able to advertise that figure. Especially if they end up with an SUV offering

Mr_Shiftright · August 2014

gasoline and diesel cars cause different kinds of pollution, was the point of the article. The NOX and the C02 can combine in the lower atmosphere into other carbon chains, and that's the problem.

ruking1 · August 2014

@Mr_Shiftright said:
gasoline and diesel cars cause different kinds of pollution, was the point of the article. The NOX and the C02 can combine in the lower atmosphere into other carbon chains, and that's the problem.
@Mr_Shiftright said:
gasoline and diesel cars cause different kinds of pollution, was the point of the article. The NOX and the C02 can combine in the lower atmosphere into other carbon chains, and that's the problem.

The reason for my posting remains simple, they will conduct no before during after measurement to see if the action and frequency makes an iota of difference. This is not even to qualify and quantify what statistical significance it makes. In addition, say they collect 2 M BPS. How are they going to apply that to reducing the pollution, they say it caused?

Closer to home, why did EPA, CA EPA, et al wait SO long to get the lead out when they knew for a VERY long time before, the deleterious effects? In the mid 70's when they decided to do that simultaneously why did they not also drop both ppm sulfur in RUG/PUG AND diesel? Pretty simple in the case of diesel, up until the time it was mandated in late 2006. it was IMMEASURABLE. Now 8 years later it is still immeasurable especially in the case of the increase in population of diesel passenger cars. Case in point the LA smog area.

nyccarguy · August 2014

@gagrice‌

For the amount of space it has, the Pilot's mileage is perfectly acceptable. Especially considering there were 5 of us in the car (sometimes 7).

@ruking‌1

My 25 mpg tankful was indeed an anomaly. I was able to set the cruise at 70 (maybe slowed down to 65 in some parts) and loaf along on flat interstates. I trust you did the math correctly. You always do:)

ruking1 · August 2014

I am addicted to the (British) series "Fifth Gear" (Top Gear also) . In one episode's segment, one of the hosts ( of three, female in this case) did the (executive) summary version (of the EU version, of the US C/H EPA) mpg testing.

There were a number of upshots:

laboratory testing
testing protocols serve as BASELINE, aka can be almost EXACTLY duplicated (except by normal consumers )
MINUS - 20% results in the so called "real world"
the EU is just as disappointed in published vs real world results as the US.

Long story short applied in your (gasser) case, the differences in mpg SEEM to be reflected in your anecdotal trip numbers (#3) .

One of my take aways, for as opaque as that EU (side of the pond ) story seemed to be; it was infinitely MORE transparent than most US consumers know about the US's C/H EPA laboratory testing. THE US EPA testing of course claims UTTER transparency. But hey, even CR doesn't do articles on the real procedures other than to say they do procedures. The EU story line basically gave a video macro and let the audience connect "the procedural" dots so to speak. (protocols were NOT specific, other than to illustrate that they ARE specific)

They did NOT highlight nor talked about DIESEL SPECIFIC testing procedures nor differences. There is a whole anecdotal diesel side, if that is of any interest.

I think if one sees the Gerdes, et al, and Taylor's postings of 77+/84 mpg on an 43 mpg H EPA TDI vehicle in context; . diesel ranges are EASILY far greater (79% to 95%). This is on the outlier end of course.

stever · August 2014

Posters on Gerdes' site are getting almost 200% of EPA numbers with their hybrids and gassers too.

ruking1 · August 2014

@stever said:
Posters on Gerdes' site are getting almost 200% of EPA numbers with their hybrids and gassers too.

I am sometimes tempted when they (folks with that "hobby") are NOT in the EXTREME right lane to get in front of them and slow down. But the truth is really more like you can see and or feel the ADVERTISEMENT from FAR far away !! Forwarned is forearmed.

But then on the other hand, the 03 Jetta TDI is @ 114% of EPA (fuel economy.gov) and all I reasonably do is keep it @ 90 mph and below. My best tank full (62 mpg) was @ 141% of H EPA. (makes watching lacquer dry an adrenaline blood sport.)

On a slow news diesel day, prices are in the cards to SLIDE. This is despite the louder middle east conflict war drum beats.

stever · August 2014

They just don't understand that you can save a whole bunch more gas just by parking yourself in front of the Travel Channel.

ruking1 · August 2014

@stever said:
They just don't understand that you can save a whole bunch more gas just by parking yourself in front of the Travel Channel.

YUP ! And just given em 3 D glasses, so they can do 2,500 miles across country in high def. cable tv !!! Don't forget the stop in Colorado for the newly legal mind altering TCH or was that THC?.

Let's see @ 18 mph that should take 139 hours? or 5.79 days non stop? The WOW man PEACE stop in CO will take goodness knows how long? We can pause and watch grey scale takes.

But then, SO SAD, on grid electrical consumption remains 40% COAL fired. Got to love those coal fired TV's and I products. With those same folks not granting natural gas fired plants, nor heaven help us NUCK CLEAR plants, looks like COAL will be around easily for @ least another generation, aka biblical.

fintail · August 2014

Speaking of coal, yesterday I saw a Fedex tractor trailer (contractor I bet) that was putting out so much smoke, one could think it used coal for fuel. Not even a peep of enforcing anything against that ideal. No doubt the kind of things that intelligent and legitimate authorities will use as an example when teaming up with sensitive greybeard types to draft future legislation for diesel cars

gagrice · August 2014

@stever said:
Posters on Gerdes' site are getting almost 200% of EPA numbers with their hybrids and gassers too.

The 194% vehicle is a Honda Accord DIESEL. Not sure how you could possibly do a comparo with a plugin like the Volt. Would be interesting to see how the Volt or plugin Prius would fare in an around the USA test like the ones holding the records with diesel.

PS

Or better yet from the tip of SO America to the Arctic Ocean. See what the Volt or Prius can do real world.

ruking1 · August 2014

Even Toyota is phasing out of (hybrid) Prius, and EV plug in. Lots of articles about Toyota shifting into hydrogen fuel cells !!

Diesel will continue to make in roads easily for another biblical generation for a host of reasons. The infrastructure investments are just WAY too massive. IF anything, it also serves to keep a lid on the middle east. Anything past that and things remain foggy.

Any more, 5 year cycles are LONG in the tooth. The real issues are most capital intensive projects require LONGER cycles.

gagrice · August 2014

I think the Germans have hit the market with diesel SUVs at just the right time to cash in on the retiring Baby boomers wanting a comfortable vehicle. Easy to get in and out of and gets good mileage. Most will opt for the RAV4, Escape and CRV. The discriminating drivers will go with the German luxury and a good percentage diesel. Mercedes is not saying much about the individual diesel models. The GLK was up 39%. I wonder just how many MB is bringing in to the dealers.

Sales of the company's BlueTEC diesel models totaled 1,118 for the month, up 27.2%, with year-to-date volumes reaching 9,284.

ruking1 · August 2014

@gagrice said:
I think the Germans have hit the market with diesel SUVs at just the right time to cash in on the retiring Baby boomers wanting a comfortable vehicle. Easy to get in and out of and gets good mileage. Most will opt for the RAV4, Escape and CRV. The discriminating drivers will go with the German luxury and a good percentage diesel. Mercedes is not saying much about the individual diesel models. The GLK was up 39%. I wonder just how many MB is bringing in to the dealers.

Sales of the company's BlueTEC diesel models totaled 1,118 for the month, up 27.2%, with year-to-date volumes reaching 9,284.

I think that VW's shift to 5 year model change (from 7 year cycles) was way under the radar to most consumers, let alone VW consumers. The good/bad news are newer and fresher models go to market faster. " Constant improvement/s" during that cycle gets a 2 year hair cut (minus-29%).

The "platform " structure concept lessens that and other risk/s and hopefully adds to increased reliability and durability rates; above and behind what they are doing to better the rates: where multiple models share both platform/s and parts bin/s. My take is the new 5 year cycle will debut with the 2015 MY.

Mercedes Benz has been on a tear bring new products to market and to a lesser extent diesels. They haven't outlined what protocol they are following in doing either to both.

Slow diesel news day

$4.01 ULSD

$3.89 RUG

$3.99 MGUG

$4.09 PUG

dudleyr · August 2014

For those who want a picture of national average prices (vs anecdotal).

My anecdotal prices are 3.06.9 for RUG

ruking1 · August 2014

@dudleyr said:

For those who want a picture of national average prices (vs anecdotal).

My anecdotal prices are 3.06.9 for RUG

For what my anecdotal prices are, I want to pay national prices and/or LESS. It would seem your anecdotal ULSD prices would be less also, which is probably way better.

xwesx · August 2014

I'll second that vote, ruking! I suppose it could be worse; we're "only" paying 60 cents over the current NA for gasoline, and maybe 30 for diesel. Somebody up here must be slacking.

ruking1 · August 2014

@ruking1 said:

>

But even at anecdotal prices of 4.09 PUG and 4.01 ULSD, the GLK's @ 20 mpg/35 mpg, with 15,000 yearly miles US drivers average will use 750 gals vs 429 gals ($3,068- $1,720=) So I would pay $1,348 more per year for PUG.

dudleyr · August 2014

Interesting choice to use a number for the gas GLK at 5 mpg under EPA highway, and a number 2 mpg over EPA highway for the diesel.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2014

Average miles @ 15,000 is only for the 35 to 54 age demographic. It falls off sharply on either end of that. Total miles driven by the US population as a whole has been falling pretty steadily since 2005, and adjusted for population growth, it's even steeper.

gagrice · August 2014

@Mr_Shiftright said:
Average miles @ 15,000 is only for the 35 to 54 age demographic. It falls off sharply on either end of that. Total miles driven by the US population as a whole has been falling pretty steadily since 2005, and adjusted for population growth, it's even steeper.

I must be a late driving bloomer. I am 71 and put more miles on the last 12 months than any I can remember. I am at 19k on the T-reg and Nissan Frontier. 16k on the VW TDI. Never enjoyed driving so much as in this vehicle. 600+ mile days are a pleasure. Planning our Oregon trip this October via Yellowstone and Boise.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2014

hey, act your age!

xwesx · August 2014

@gagrice said:
Planning our Oregon trip this October via Yellowstone and Boise.

LOL That's a whole additional trip! There's no "via" when that is farther away than your destination. While you're at it, I think you should hit Prudoe just to keep in touch with what's happening up on the Slope; it's not that far out of the way.

I'm impressed with how much you like this vehicle, though. It is fun to read you and ruking's musings about your TDIs.

henryn · August 2014

@Mr_Shiftright
Average miles @ 15,000 is only for the 35 to 54 age demographic. It falls off sharply on either end of that. Total miles driven by the US population as a whole has been falling pretty steadily since 2005, and adjusted for population growth, it's even steeper.

There's something funny about that. Not ha-ha funny, strange funny. Whenever I'm shopping for a used car, I seem to see mostly cars that have been driven 20k or even 30k miles per year. No, not all, but it seems like the vast majority.

@gagrice
I must be a late driving bloomer. I am 71 and put more miles on the last 12 months than any I can remember.

I'm the opposite. I'm 63, and I drive a lot fewer miles now than when I was younger.

ruking1 · August 2014

@Mr_Shiftright said:
Average miles @ 15,000 is only for the 35 to 54 age demographic. It falls off sharply on either end of that. Total miles driven by the US population as a whole has been falling pretty steadily since 2005, and adjusted for population growth, it's even steeper.

I ran the numbers off the 2012 NHTSA statistics miles traveled by PVF # of cars and by licensed drivers ( I also posted the link). They did not break down age demographics, for either and/or both. I also doubt that that demographic owns ALL those cars. You might want to run your own numbers, from whatever or where ever you are getting your statistics.

stever · August 2014

I gotta start acting my age - we did 600 miles today and it's more fun taking a day and a half for those kinds of miles. Kind of a boring drive just bombing up I-75 for hours on end.

I saw two stinkpots spewing on the roads the last couple of days.. Both gassers - yesterday it was a Honda S2000 spewing from both tailpipes and the driver had the top down (and everyone was going about 10 mph in the Smokies). Today's winner was an older Saturn.

In the minus column, gas is "cheap" right now making the typical regular/diesel price differential fifty to eighty cents a gallon. I rarely think to look, but I'm guessing that premium is running thirty cents more than regular.

(@gagrice, thinking of a Boise move? Check out Eagle and put Mai Thai on your list - voted the Best of Boise 9 years in a row).

Mr_Shiftright · August 2014

DOT statistics---pretty solid looks like. I think the point is that in general, American are driving fewer miles and this downward trend continues:

Americans drove 30 billion fewer vehicle miles in 2008-2009 than in the 2001-2002 NHTS survey period

You have to keep in mind that this is a large cumulative number. Our individual decrease in driving might not seem very significant to us, but you multiply that by X million drivers, and it adds up.

I mean, someone doesn't just apply the brakes on his 55th birthday!

But the statistic makes sense if you think about it. The older the driver, the less likely to be taking long road trips, or driving at night; and as for the young 'uns, many have migrated to big cities and use public transport way more than kids 20 years ago.

@ruking1 said:
I ran the numbers off the 2012 NHTSA statistics miles traveled by PVF # of cars and by licensed drivers ( I also posted the link). They did not break down age demographics, for either and/or both. I also doubt that that demographic owns ALL those cars. You might want to run your own numbers, from whatever or where ever you are getting your statistics.

"

What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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