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Comments
M sport is a package. M3/M5 is a vehicle.
The moderator is a pizza dude?
In his spare time, yes
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
I am. Gets me out of the house and away from the computer. Otherwise, I might grow roots here in the home office.
BTW, I have a "real" day job as well ... where I work from home.
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2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2014 MINI Countryman S ALL4
Hey Kirby. I already stated that, and after all this time I have been here you know darn well I know what an M3 and M5 is!
M-Sport is a package. M cars have the M in front, the package cars have M-Sport after the name of the car. 335i M Sport for example.
I think BMW may be working the hell out of its brand marketing lol.
I was just providing a summary (with fewer words) for the others.
I did it too. Network Engineer by day, Domino's by night. With a 1, 3, and 4 year old at home we needed all the cash we could get. It worked out great, allowing us to pay for all the little stuff with pizza cash, and got me out of the house, limiting diaper duty.
Unless you are looking at the 4-series Gran Coupe...which has 4 doors. I don't care if they call it a "Coupe"...it is a 4 door sedan with a stubby trunk
Don't get me started on "4 door coupes".....
4 series "Gran Coupe?" Oh my god, I wasn't even aware that existed. BMW seems to have every niche product with no end in sight... this is what I meant in an earlier post. Even I would be intimidated if I walked on to their lot. I thought the 4 series was invented denoting a 2 door car! Someone oven there is behind this BMW branding blitz, and I am starting to wonder if he is insane.
I actually hate to keep the entry level luxury sedan posts going, but I have been on the Fairfax BMW e-mailing list forever from when I had my old 320 serviced there, and I just got a mailer featuring over 50 328i cars, all slashed to $33,575. That is a seriously good price on a $50,000 car! I have no idea if any of them come with "available" features like seats and steering wheels, but $33k for a car that does 60 in 5.8 seconds and the quarter in 13.9 at 101. Very quick for a 4 cylinder in such a big car.
If I was in the market for a loaded mid size sedan, I think I would add this long established BMW dealer on my short list for a test drive. It would probably come down to me buying the Mazda 6 or moving up to a low end BMW, with insurance and taxes being the deal breaker on the B-Mer.
As long as it isn't a 320. Been there done that.
Another way to move up a bit is with the Regal. I saw a great deal on the Regal Turbo in my local paper yesterday: $219/month for 36 months, no money down + TTL and first payment. That's a better deal than something like an Accord LX. Although the lease rates on those have dropped recently due to a $500 incentive. Weird thing about Honda ads in my area--they NEVER advertise sale prices, just lease rates.
A few other mid-sizers advertised great deals yesterday, e.g. a new Fusion S for $16,500. It seems to me these super-low prices are coming a little earlier in the year than in the past. It used to be you'd only see the low-low prices in the fall, with the best deals around Thanksgiving to year-end.
In the back of the new (9/14) issue of Car and Driver, there is a graph of RETAIL sales numbers through April this year. The source of these numbers is IHS Automotive with POLK new-vehicle registration data. It is located on page 128, in the middle of a Honda Accord Sport (manual) long term test. It returned 29 mpg, did 0-60 in 6.6 seconds when new AND after 40,000 miles, No problems except 3 unscheduled brake rotor resurfacing trips to the dealer, and we all know it was driven hard by C/D staff.
They loved it, but missed the lack of heated seats, SAT radio and navigation, and leather. Stated it is an extremely good value at $24k.
Here are their numbers:
Honda Accord - 112,100
Toyota Camry - 110,379
Nissan Altima - 84,111
Ford Fusion - 72,746
Hyundai Sonata - 54,014
Kia Optima - 44,000
Chevrolet Malibu - 43,101
Subaru Outback - 37,534
Volkswagen Passat - 26,824
Dodge Avenger - 25,068
Chrysler 200 - 21,648
Mazda 6 - 15,306
Buick Lacrosse - 12,080
Subaru Legacy - 9596
Buick Regal - 6452
Volkswagen CC - 3563
Anyway, I don't know if these numbers are truly all retail but that's what the graph says.
Alright folks, come Labor Day weekend I'm going to be ready to pull the trigger on a Fusion. I've been in talks with a few dealerships around the country (Some in Chicago-land and Illinois, two in NJ and one in CT)
Before this morning I was pretty set on driving to Columbia Ford out in Columbia, Connecticut to pick up a Fusion model they have available.
It's a loaded Darkside model with Charcoal Interior with the following options:
-6spd manual transmission
-202A/Luxury pkg
-Driver Assist pkg
-Heated Steering Wheel
-Power Moonroof
-MFT/Navigation
-Reverse Sensing System
-18 inch black gloss alloy wheels
Got a dealer quote late last night for $29200 prior to any rebates which comes out to about $340 above invoice. Currently I qualify for rebates up to $4750 if I take the Ford financing ($3750 if I don't) so the total cost as of last night was about $25,500-$24500 depending on rebates. I was about to plan the trip out there today when I got a call from the dealership (which is open on Sunday surprisingly) and now I'm putting the brakes on the purchase.
Part of the deal I acquired last night was to include splash guards and some all-weather mats in the price of the car, and today the salesperson agreed to do that since the car is still over invoice a bit. Then before we ended the conversation he told me that the dealership charges a $498 "Conveyance" fee for all purchases which he says is required by law (I just researched it and the only thing the dealership is required to do is post a sign saying they charge these fees and what they charge. Its a charge the dealerships themselves comes up with but he made it seem like it was a one-time fee all dealerships charge that Connecticut themselves requires them to charge)
Seems kinda shady to me. He's supposed to email me again tomorrow about the car, I'm going to stick to my guns...either give me the price you quoted me and include this "bogus" fee in the price of $29,200 or just keep the car.
He also mentioned that the "Competitive Rebate" that is available in my region only applies to GM vehicles, NOT to other makes/models. I researched Ford's website and they mention nothing about the car only needing to be a GM product. I'm not trusting these people right now...
I live in Wisconsin, only drive stick shift cars and I'm willing to drive out there to get the car BUT if the pricing isn't good (and right now the dealership looks mighty shady) I'm gonna pass on it. A dealership in my area has the exact car with the exact same options as the model out in Connecticut, but its an AUTOMATIC
Anybody have any dealings with Columbia Ford or any dealings buying a car in Connecticut before? The car is exactly what I want down to the options...but Im not just going to give away $500 just for the hell of it.
Considering the manual transmission is dead for 2015, I'm not paying anymore than the $24500-25500 total for the car. I'm not going to budge a bit!
Thanks in advance for any advice you can give.
I'd pay up to $200 conveyance fee, and that's it. This is just another dealer "pack"--it's for doing the DMV paperwork.
The "law" the dealer is referring to is this law, which applies to the dealer (see below). Obviously, this law was written to curtail abuses by the dealer.
"The State of Connecticut has also mandated that a sign be posted where sales transactions are processed containing the following information:
The amount of the conveyance or processing fee
The services performed for such fee
That the fee is not payable to the State of Connecticut
That the buyer, where appropriate, may elect to submit the documentation for registration and transfer of ownership to the DMV and that the amount of the fee will be proportionately reduced by that election. (NOTE: If the vehicle purchase requires the listing of a lienholder, the customer may not elect to submit the documentation.)
Sign specifications per Connecticut State Regulation:
The sign’s overall size is 36” x 26”
The top line of print is 125-point bold and underlined
The next five lines are 48-point bold
The last line is 60-point bold"
I read where one guy saw "ADP - $500" on his contract after negotiating a low price, and when pressed about it the the sales person sheepishly admitted it stood for "Additional Dealer Profit".
Keep sharp out there America!
Max, depends what is important. Getting the car you want, or that last few hundred $$. If you are willing to go all the way to Ct. for one, you obviously are very picky.
so, unless you are willing to compromise a bit to take a unit elsewhere, not sure how much real leverage you have.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
maxamillion85
Just read your post . Under no circumstance do you drive out of state to buy a vehicle without a signed buyers order. This can be done by fax. You need something in writing from the Int. sales mgr. If a dealer wont due this for you tell them you will take your business elsewhere.
Tell this dealer you will leave a credit card deposit to show you are a serious buyer till you could get to there dealership to pick up vehicle.
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
A guy over at driveaccord.net says he picked up a 2014 Accord Sport 6MT for 20k flat + taxes and fees! Wow that's a bargain for that car. What a steal. Wonder what I could get for my 2008 in trade....?
I just bought a brand new 2014 Porsche 911 Turbo for $22.
See how that works?
@maxamillion85
I live in CT, but have never had any dealings with this dealer, nor do I even know where Columbia, CT is. What I can tell you about conveyance fees is that they are real. The dealer has to charge it to everyone. Which just means they have to "show" it on the bill of sale. So like so many on edmunds have said before, go in with an "out the door offer." They have to sell YOU a car. It does them no good sitting on their lot. Just tell them to take an extra $498 off the price of the car.
Now on the flip side. If you have your heart set on this "rare bird," and you have to have a stick shift, what is an extra $500 in the long run? Or if its the best deal you can get on the car you want, in a year you won't miss it. Either way, keep us in the loop & good luck!
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
You sure that wasn't in Bitcoin?
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2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2014 MINI Countryman S ALL4
SE of Hartford. somewhat boonies I think. so if flying in to buy would go into Hartford airport.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
just looked up that Fusion. looks like it must have the "sinister pack" on it!
but good news, if Max can sneak it on the plane, he can bring a goat because they take them in trade too!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Well, one of my rules is never buy a car more than 15 miles from the dealer where I bought it to make service more convenient.
That way recalls, warranted breakdowns, etc. lie squarely on the shoulders on the dealer who sold it to me. Also what about free service? Will it be offered at a dealer in another state? Are you going to drive to Connecticut every 3 to 6 months for an oil change?
I can't tell you how many times I have said "It was so worth it to buy it close to they house".
I can really appreciate your situation, since no one likes to feel like they are getting ripped off. Especially on a bogus fee; but if you try to nail them to the cross on price, they WILL try to make it up at every opportunity. The dealer "conveyance" fee is called "doc prep" here, and is generally $250 to $300, so $500 is high. They are trying to make sure they can pay the people who work in the back office that you usually do not see from this type of fee. Just to give you background, I worked for GMAC and AmeriCredit as a contract buyer. If you get a good price, and you can negotiate that fee down to $250, then I would sign for it. If you are unwilling to pay it, then they are going to make it up somewhere in F&I on interest or points, or GAP insurance, credit insurance, and so forth.
They're real but they are not required to charge any type of doc fee or conveyance fee. They just have to post it if they do charge it.
Yeah, but there are multiple posts from multiple sources at this point showing that a few people are getting more than $4000 off of msrp on Accords right now. I think Brian can back me up on this...
And some people are getting as much as $5k off of msrp on 2014 Camrys and Sonatas. It's a buyer's market out there for those willing to negotiate....
My financing is already lined up with Capital One...took care of that last night. I'm not adding any of the "accessory" stuff to my car. I don't want it and I don't need it.
I'm not saying the prices aren't real, but you can't just go by what someone says they paid. Even if they're giving you the right price, you don't know if the dealer lowballed the trade-in to make up the difference or if that included a huge doc fee, etc.
I am not conversant on Fusions but I didn't even know they offered a manual transmission on those. That must be a pretty rare bird, and considering that you say it is going away for 2015 I am guessing it is not a big seller. Just for fun I did an inventory search locally and not one new Fusion in inventory around here has a manual transmission. They all have black interiors too which perhaps says more about how dealers order cars for stock than anything else.
I don't know what advice to give you except to suggest that maybe you could find a local dealer that is willing to do a national inventory search for a car and do a trade with another dealer that might have one of these? Might be less painful in the end than driving all the way to CT.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
More bad news on the 2015 Sonata/Optima too. The 2015 Sport turbo was tested by C/D (9/14 issue page 77).
It took 8 seconds to get to 60. Just to be clear, the 2015 Sonata/Optima turbo models have been fitted with smaller turbos and have been reduced from 274 horsepower to 245. Still, even with "just" 245hp, a 0 to 60 time of 8 seconds is slow. My 2.4 liter non-turbo car is marginally faster to 60 (7.7 seconds).
The 2011-14 "Sonoptima" turbo models did 60 in 6.3 seconds. Unfortunately, they were also not able to get anywhere near 24/34 EPA numbers. Hyundai also said the smaller turbos will have "better tractability" as well. Scary. To me, it means the turbo models had much worse MPG than advertised, and will be needing a lot of dealer visits as they age.
The non-turbo cars have been reduced to 185hp, down from 200. I believe that this is done for EPA reasons is well.
I gotta tell you, this is the first time I have ever seen a manufacturer reduce it's power figures so dramatically on an essentially unchanged drivetrain. I guess they are trying to avoid being caught in any more lies. Anyway, I feel more happy that I bought the non-turbo as time passes. My Optima is still problem free at 31k, knock on wood!
@cski
Before condemning completely based on one source, you might want to consider other sources
from automobilemag.com
"This 2.0-liter four-cylinder engine with its twin-scroll turbocharger has been revised for much improved response at low rpm, so the car surges away from a stoplight with more authority than before. The price has been a reduction in peak output to 245 hp @ 6000 rpm and 260 lb-ft of torque at 1350 – 4000 rpm, some 29 hp and 9 lb-ft less than before.
This seems like a bad deal on paper, yet we liked this 2.0T engine’s notably quicker, quieter response while accelerating away from stoplights in metro driving, and the engine made great use of the 2.0T’s six-speed automatic with its shift paddles on the steering wheel and a set up of shorter ratios in first through fourth gears for quicker acceleration. Also we expect that the 2.0T should more easily make its EPA fuel economy rating of 23 mpg city/32 mpg highway and 26 mpg combined. Even better, the 2.0T comes with a different electric-assisted power steering (the motor is mounted on the steering rack instead of the column), and its behavior feels more natural."
I'm not really a big fan of Hyundai products(just don't feel they've made it yet in the suspension/handling dept) but I find that 8 sec 0-60 time suspect. Most magazines est. the standard engine 0-60 at about 7.6-7.8. Hard to believe with that much more torque offered at very low rpms it would be would be slower. Maybe it was a "slow" day at Car & Driver so to speak.
I don't think the HP reductions were made to only improve EPA FE ratings. I think they were made for improved driveability. But if 8 secs is all the better the new 2.0T can do, then I bet Hyundai won't sell too many of those. It's plenty fast for me, but it won't compete with the cars that offer a V6. But 185 hp is competitive with base engines in competitors.
I'll be interested to see how the 1.6T does in this car, with ~300 lbs less weight than the 2.0T.
I didn't condemn. I reported what I read in a major magazine in the appropriate forum. I also have read similar stories about the same powertrain being off the pace it should have been while reviewing two other Hyundai products. One was the Santa Fe Sport I believe, but I would have to look it up.
I don't have time to read more than one car mag, but would really like to know if Motortrend, Automobile, etc have different stats.
When you make statements such as:
"Scary. To me, it means the turbo models had much worse MPG than advertised, and will be needing a lot of dealer visits as they age."
Did the article actually state that they expect the MPG numbers to be much worse then advertised or that they actually experienced it? Did the article say they expect maint problems with the turbo which would mean more "dealer visits"? I took it that those were your assumptions. If not, I stand corrected.
I don't think I've seen many 0-60 times per se but the automobilemag article did say they felt the new turbo was faster off the line which makes me think that it would be as fast or faster to 60 than before. I agree, if the 8 secs is correct which I have my doubts, it is slow for the given weight/hp mix.
Well, those Korean ponies have proven to be a lot smaller and less powerful than their SAE counterparts...
Actually I visited a Hyundai dealer that was closed yesterday and they had the new models parked next to the outgoing version, so it was easy to do a side by side comparison. The new car is much more conservative in design both inside and out. Seeing them in the flesh side by side, I actually like the new design better than the old, with its tortured sheetmetal and overdone styling features. The new car looks bigger, squarer, and a bit more imposing. On the interior it is a similar story. Again the new design is more conservative but in some ways I like it better than the outgoing one, which is very reminiscent to that in many competing cars like the Fusion and Altima. But the ones I saw on the lot had a smaller center screen in the new model than in the old, but that might be a function of trim level, I don't know. The new car had a dash that looked more square and upright than the laid-back version in the old model.
I imagine Hyundai will do what they always do, put enough incentives/cash on the hood to move the metal regardless of how buyers react to the design.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
When you make statements such as:
Le t me clear up this statement. I was speaking of the 2011-2014 models. The turbo was swapped out for 2015 and the EPA figures STILL dropped from 24/34 to 23/32. So how close to EPA figures do you think the previous car was able to achieve? Not close at all.
See, I also post on Optima forums site, and get a lot of information from actual owners. They complain of inability to reach EPA figures constantly and in large numbers. Also, higher mileage turbo owners are having trouble with exhaust leaks, turbo bearing failure, and check engine lights resulting in turbocharger replacement.
Hey Nova Scotia! (ab348).
One of the first things I checked on my car is if my 2.4 was SAE certified at 200hp and 186 lb ft.
It is SAE certified. I had concerns too, and all I came up with is that the 6 speed is geared for economy, not power. I really have to get some revs before she feels strong. On the highway, 50 to 90 mph is much more impressive than off the line.
The center stack looks very BMW like. The whole design is much more traditional. I have said in the past that I never had to consult the manual on any of the buttons on my car, so it is nice to see that Hyundai is doing the same on the Sonata. The 2.0T Sport in this months C/D has a nice sized screen (looks like 6" to 7") and it is built into the dash instead of a pop up unit, which I like better looks wise.
C/D said "The interior is nicely thought out. There are no glaring ergonomic flaws., and the materials are par for this highly competitive class". The Sonata registers 7 series quiet on the decibel meter".
Nuff said!
Don't know what the deal is with the Hyundai turbo. Accord and Mazda6 both hit 60 in under 7 seconds (with the stick) and get much better mpg to boot - no turbo needed. Now what exactly is the advantage of the turbo? Ford is in the same boat. CR gets the V-6 Accord at 39 mpg highway and the little turbo 1.5 liter Fusion at 34 mpg, and the Fusion is much much slower. Again - what is the point of the turbo if a V-6 gets better mpg.
Not everybody goofs up the turbo. BMW does well with the 3 series being seriously fast and getting good mpg. The 1.4 liter Fiat/Chrysler turbo also seems to do pretty well.
Until I see real world numbers for turbos these days I take any claims with a grain of salt.
@maxamillion85.
I live in CT and just got back from MadTown. Checked Columbia's website and the only manual trans Fusion listed on their website is silver. There are 3 Dark Side listed, but they are all automatics.
I went to Columbia's website yesterday and found it there then.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
I saw it yesterday too. Had to go into each link and look at the pictures to find it though.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
First problem with the 2012 Optima EX. My A/C has discharged. I thought it was getting weaker about 5 days ago, and today I went out to my Doctor Appointment and only the center vent was cool, the rest were completely air temperature.
So, now I get to see how good (or bad) Fairfax Kia is at AC service and repair. Frankly, I am not looking forward to it.
@cski, If there is cool air coming out of some of the vents, it could just be the climate control out of sync.
It seems like the head unit is directing warm air to me (it is dual-zone) and cooler air to the passenger, and cool air comes out of one rear vent, but not the other. I think it still needs to be recharged, since not even the cooler air could be mistaken for cold. Not even 3 years old and already A/C trouble.
I will let you know Friday, as I made an appointment.
cski,
Sounds like the dealer will be checking these things to determine your problem. its always nice to have this done under warranty in the worse case scenario I listed below.
Compressor Checks
Start with the compressor. Does it engage when you turn on the A/C?
If so, the compressor is working and the A/C system probably contains enough refrigerant to make cold air, so the problem is inside the HVAC unit. Replace the motor that controls the blend air door (this is a difficult job and best left to a professional since it involves tearing apart the HVAC unit -- about an 8 to 10 hour job!).
If the compressor does not engage when you turn on the A/C, see if it will run by jumping the compressor clutch wire directly to the battery (use a fused jumper wire). If the compressor works when you jump it, and the A/C blows cold air, the system contains refrigerant and the fault is likely a bad A/C compressor clutch relay or a bad clutch cycling switch or pressure switch.
If the compressor does not engage when you jump it, the problem is a bad compressor clutch.
If the clutch engages but the compressor does not turn (the belt will start to slip and squeal), the compressor is locked up and you need a new compressor.
If the compressor clutch engages and turns the compressor, but the A/C still does not blow cold air, the system is probably low on refrigerant and needs to be recharged.
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
If you're getting cold air through some vents and not the others it could be the blend door or the controller controlling the blend door.
This could be a great excuse to buy a new 2015 Mazda6. I'm sure the Mrs. will understand. Tell her the kids need there air. And the a/c unit blew the motor in the Kia.
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
She isn't that stupid! I think Kirby is on to something though. Still getting cool air from the passenger side, but warm on mine. I think whatever makes it "dual zone" is broken.
I am glad it is under warranty. The compressor and everything else is working fine. I washed it today and heard the compressor kick on, and I would have noticed a new sound coming from the engine bay, sounds like "oh my god what is that?". Seriously though, I have lucked out since the weather here has been unseasonably cool the entire summer. It was 58 degrees this morning and 57 yesterday. High temperature? 82!! It should be a sticky 82 at 6AM and 99 all day.
I am not complaining though, as I hate the heat; and rolling down the windows has been totally fine except when the sun is directly on the car and I am sitting in traffic... then I feel a bit like a chicken in the oven.
My appointment is tomorrow at 2PM, so I will let you guys know how competent or otherwise the dealer is at sorting this issue.