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I don't really have any stake in this matter, but the logic in these arguments continues to elude me, so I've got to further pursue it. What is the difference if one person double dips on gov pensions while another does the same thing from corporate ones? In either event, the public pays. Gov through taxes, corporate through markup and prices consumer pays whether directly, or indirectly through the supply chain. I guess I'd understand if the pension rules are way too loose, and maybe is some cases they are, but it seems that usually you'd have to work at least into your 50's to collect a full pension before then working more years somewhere else for a less than full pension unless you're 80 or something. If not, then it seems you'd have two less than full pensions because most any pension plan I've heard of requires at least 25 or 30 years to max it. I think a cop has to at least work 20 or 25 years to get a full pension, and if they do it in someplace like Chicago or LA I think they are due a good pension after all of that. Seems to me that they face the same danger daily as a military member in a combat zone. It's easy to pick at cops, particularly if one just gave you a ticket, but would you really want their job and all of the grief, and sometimes real danger that goes with it? As for military, do you really want a bunch of 50+ years olds in the Infantry or trying to quickly haul and load heavy ammo on an aircraft carrier? I don't think most people who aren't veterans really understand the military pay structures. You can retire after 20 years I believe, but it's half of base pay, not full pay that includes subsistence, housing allowances, etc. and makes up a considerable amount of their total pay. So someone in that situation almost has to go back to work, particularly if they are supporting a family. Also, how does social security play into all of this? Using some of the logic I've read in this thread by various posters social security would seem to also qualify as double dipping.
What amount of corporate workers can even get a pension anymore, compared to public sector workers? Not exactly an apples to apples piece of logic there. That's the crux of it, if some like to complain about union excess (esp industrial workers), public sector union excess must be fought alongside it, or it becomes hypocritical. Usually defended by those who benefit from it, or are connected to similar.
Police aren't even in the top 10 most dangerous professions, and I won't get that ball rolling from here. Combat zone, please. They deserve a pension they pay into, sure. Not something wildly subsidized and guaranteed for life that can start while the recipient is still relatively young. What percentage of military employees are in physically demanding roles? Seems a little dramatic, in my opinion. I know just one recent military retiree, who was pretty much an office worker. Some distractions there too - family is irrelevant, if they have a family to pay for, they shouldn't be retiring.
SS has income limits, no?
My point is that if a retired judge collects a pension and is later appointed/elected to the bench, the net impact to the taxpayer is zero. The retired judge collects a pension either way, and someone is going to be appointed/elected and be paid a salary regardless. A retired judge won't get a boost in his pension or a second pension from the later service. In any event, it's almost certainly a moot point, since if I do decide to get another job in the legal profession it will be in the private sector...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
I understand where you are coming from. I was more concerned with California, where our governor has two state retirements plus his governor pay and the exclusive state pension plan that is for top tier government officials. This is in a state that is on the verge of bankruptcy. Much of it due to the overly generous pensions the state has always offered their over paid workforce.
Bringing it back to the UAW. Currently the UAW pension plan is supporting 600,000 retirees. With about 300,000 workers. Most of whom are NOT paying into the pension plan. The bottom tier workers are now into a 401K plan. The Tax payers out of the goodness of our hearts already put $27 billion into that pension fund to get it healthy again. This in spite of the fact that 100s of other pension plans are in critical condition. When does this madness stop?
My pension plan is on the list is yours??
http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/criticalstatusnotices.html
Maybe things have changed, but when I was in the military very few were office workers and all were subject to constant location rotations and deployments. It's not easy work and even your office worker buddy was subject to a lot of other duties beyond his desk job and many beyond his normal "office" hours. My point on military pensions is they are not nearly as fat as are being generalized in this blog and the military probably has a tougher up or out policy than most companies, so quite a few of those 20 year retirees didn't really have the opportunity to go 25 or 30 years to up their pension ratio and payout. Doesn't mean they were poor in job performance, just a very steep pyramid for higher level promotion and advancement in those latter years without alternative lateral job placement opportunities like in commercial employment. I'll agree that a police officer in LA is probably different work and risk than one in Beverly Hills, but they both work odd shifts and simple traffic stops and domestic disputes can turn ugly without notice. Admittedly, most don't get shot or seriously injured, but some do and there is no guarantee who that will be. It's kind of like the risk/reward concept in finance, so their payout is higher than a more conservative career. Both of these professions are far from the normal family life of most office workers or other jobs. Even liberals in gov have admitted to that.
401K's are generally not as lucrative as pensions that older employees got, but also many participants are not taking full advantage of them early in their career, or investing it too conservatively, which diminishes their return. Not to mention gov economic actions and globalization that have really kind of screwed them over. But that is not the fault of older employees who have earned or collected a pension from their job. I think your beef should be with Congress and senior corporate executives, not pensioners and employees that still get some pension eligibility.
Will ACE ace out the UAW at VW TN?
Mike Burton, who helped anti-UAW workers defeat the UAW's effort to represent VW Chattanooga hourly workers six months ago, told Reuters he hopes the new union will force VW to hold another vote to determine which one is favored by hourly employees.
Burton said the proposed union local at Chattanooga will be the first chapter of what will be called the American Council of Employees. The new union will operate differently than the UAW, which he says hurts the competitiveness of unionized U.S. automakers.
Burton said that he and co-workers collected 108 signatures on Monday for a petition supporting the ACE. He hopes to get enough signatures to show VW that his union has widespread support in the plant.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/26/us-volkswagen-unions-tennessee-idUSKBN0GQ1K820140826
Those workers seem to know that the UAW is not a value-added proposition for them.
"Gary Casteel, the UAW's secretary-treasurer, said roughly 750 Volkswagen workers have joined a recently-formed union outpost in Chattanooga, Tenn. The drive comes just months after the UAW narrowly lost an organizing vote that would have given it exclusive bargaining authority over the plant's 1,500 hourly workers.
Mr. Casteel, who oversees UAW organizing activities in southern states, said the labor union won't hold another vote. Instead, it will ask Volkswagen to recognize the plant's Local 42 as a "members" union, and allow it to negotiate on behalf of those workers who have joined voluntarily."
Details at a registration only link at the WSJ.
Seems like the american taxpayer gets to choose who extorts them---corporations or unions.
But some of our friends like Rocky don't believe it is possible to spend too much money on the Green agenda. Even if most of it ends up in billionaire pockets. I see it all as corporate welfare that will never likely benefit the middle class tax payer.
But not tomorrow morning
After all, a number of gun manufacturers are leaving their home states (the anti-gun states like NY and others) to move to pro-gun states like TX, AZ and others...if those states are giving the companies incentives to move, bringing skilled folks like gunsmiths may be an improvement over say, the opening of another McDonalds, which will only give us more burger flippers (and after six months of training, they can move up to fries...a la Eddie Murphy/Louis Anderson in Coming to America)...
And nice to hear from you again!
And nice to hear from you again!
Trickle down has all but been shut off by Keynesian QE and TARP. It starts at the top and stays there. No more trickle down for US lowlifes. Thank you Liberal Oligarchs.
And nice to see you again, too
I don't see QE or TARP as greatly impacting failed tax theories. We were yet again sold a bill of goods. Thanks again, so-called right.
You may very well be correct that trickle down doesn't work (at least the way in which it has been implemented, but the current evidence is far form a proof since you can't run the experiment both way - i.e., you don't know what would have happened in the alternative scenario. That's why drug trials are double-blinded. Unfortunately we can't do that with a nation's economy.
And nice to hear from you again!
That is a fact. The 600,000 UAW retirees cannot be supported with less than 300,000 workers. The Ponzi scheme that is most pension plans is a failure. More Union Pensions are in critical condition than healthy. The UAW would already be BK if not for the $27B gift from Obama to the UAW.
The auto industry agreed to a lot of this stuff with the UAW going back the days when D3 was an oligopoly or even duopoly. In that environment they could just jack up prices to cover it all. What I find scary these days is how the gov is blindly letting tons of acquisitions and mergers take place potentially moving many industries into that oligopoly mode. The auto industry history should be a warning flare that these excessive market consolidations are not good for the consumer and will hurt the US economy down the road. But money talks when politicians have their hands fully extended.
The D3 oligopoly wasn't so bad when the product was superior to the competition. But when that slipped...watch out. We might see similar situations to that in cable/telecom, where the big players become arrogant.
Always remember the real golden rule.
I tend to run libertarian, but the one thing I feel government should really do (and isn't doing very well) is to preserve a relatively level playing field and prevent major mergers and oligopoly situations, Which is why I can hardly wait for the disruption in the internet and telecom industry (which will come). Don't get me going about the big banks that are even bigger - you know, the ones that almost sent us into the second great depression. And then there are the original D3 - they were an oligopoly that fell apart with the advent of competition. It was the oligopoly that enabled crappy products and a fat UAW. Fortunately those situations have changed for the better.
I am still not sold that it was primarily a worker issue when the competition started making in-roads. Supposed managers and cookie cutter cereal box MBA sycophants sure didn't react well, either - and haven't paid nearly the price.
"Were Kennedy-era tax breaks as widespread and strong as Reaganomics, and the unproven idea behind it?"
I'd say they were only because if they weren't we wouldn't have the Alternative Minimum Tax. Which BTW I got hit with last year. OUCH, that freakin hurt! And I'm no where near being a 1%'re much less a .01%'re the AMT was initially created for.
General Motors is splitting off its Cadillac luxury brand as a "separate business unit" and relocating its headquarters from Detroit to the trendy SoHo area of New York City next year in a "strategic realignment."
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/09/23/gm-cadillac-separate-business-unit/16093343/
No UAW workers around here as far as I can tell.
Same headline, different "Southern" company and state:
"The head labor official on Daimler AG's supervisory board says he considers it "unacceptable" that the German automaker's Mercedes plant in Alabama stands alone among the company's factories around the world without union representation for its workers."
Mercedes Labor Chief Seeks UAW Foothold in Alabama (ABC)
Of course, there were a lots of weird little cars running around that we don't see here or in europe. Mostly HyunKia's...
More like we are going to the dogs.
The article says they will have a 100 people and only 30 will re-locate from Detroit. To me splitting means just that. See ya GM we are outta here. And with their largest seller SRX mostly made in Mexico, I really wonder. Though NYC does not seem a likely place for engineering to move. With Cadillac sales in the dumpster, it makes you wonder if this is the last gasp.
The German labor leaders are wanting to beat down the US competition. They don't like the fact they are losing market share with factories all over the World. I don't think the US MB management will be quite as easy as VW USA.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
(Did you miss my holler or are you just gonna be smart and ignore me? )
http://www.gmpartsoutlet.net/auto-parts/2013/cadillac/ats/base-trim/2-0l-l4-gas-engine/brake-cat/drums-and-rotors-scat/bd135405-assy
Questions to Ask any Local 42 Member
1. Have you read your charter and understand that you have NO real rights as a Local? Are you restricted to do only what the national lets you?
2. Do you want to be laid off if we have to have a layoff, or would you rather have temps be laid off?
3. Is it true that Detroit determines where Local 42 dues go for political purposes?
4. What protections can Local 42 offer? Job security? Has that worked for Detroit?
5. Like Detroit, will Local 42 experience multiple Unfair Labor Practice Charges because of favoritism?
6. Who will hold Local 42 leadership accountable for their decisions?
7. How will overtime be distributed among employees?
8. How will Local 42 help VW Chattanooga reduce costs?
9. How will Local 42 help VW Chattanooga improve quality?
10. How will Local 42 help VW Chattanooga improve efficiency?
11. How will non union employees be fairly represented on the works council?
12. How will Local 42 ensure privacy of employees when represented by their union at a performance or disciplinary meeting in HR?
13. Will Local 42 vote on what responsibilities can be delegated to the works council, and will non union people be a part of that vote?
14. Does Local 42 plan to allow non union members to have a vote in works council related issues, events, plan and activities?
15. If yes, how does local 42 plan to integrate their vision of works council with the vision of employees not represented by the union, or not members of the union?
16. Since the UAW has stated that they do not intend to unionize the salaried workforce, how will they legally ensure the voice of the salary workers are heard in the works council?
17. Do you understand that if the UAW takes you out on a sympathy/support strike, you will not get “strike benefits” unless you walk the picket line? Can you afford to live on $200 a week, for as long as Ford, GM or Chrysler might go out on strike next year?
18. Since Local 42 has a no-strike clause, why will part of your dues go to a strike fund?
19. Is it true that showing interest in another union disqualifies you from a leadership position in Local 42?
http://www.no2uaw.com/
"Today I cannot describe the shock and disappointment we had when we heard that in Paris that he made a comment that the next generation of Wrangler coming out in 2018 may not be built in Toledo,” Mr. Baumhower said. “He didn’t say it wouldn’t be, but he said there’s a chance that they may have to build it somewhere else because they’re going to go to an aluminum body.
“I don't care if they make it out of aluminium, if they make it out of steel. Whatever they want to make it out of, it’s got to be made in Toledo, Ohio,” he said. “We’ve earned that. We’re going to demand that. We expect nothing less than that."
http://www.toledoblade.com/Automotive/2014/10/02/UAW-Local-12-president-reacts-to-comments-by-Chrysler-CEO.html
And because of "right-to-work" laws, Michigan workers will be able to opt out of the union if they don't like it. "We haven't been in this situation," Dziczek said. "We don't know how it will play out."
It's going to be a balancing act, Dziczek said. "I don't think they can get rid of second tier, but I think they can get darn closer." She said the UAW might be able to win a phase-out of the two-tier contract in the next negotiations in 2019.
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/2014/10/02/uaw-readies-big-three-contract-showdowns/16569363/
UAW Local 42 in Chattanooga earlier this month elected officers and it will be those officers who will liaise with VW plant officials about recognition, Williams said."
UAW eyes bargaining rights at VW Tennessee plant within a year
I don't think the people of TN are that stupid. When they see the goofy two tier system still in place in 2015. What would it gain the VW workers. They already have a 401K which is all the UAW will have for all new workers since the bankruptcy. All the UAW is looking for is more dues to waste.