Tires, tires, tires

edwardn1 · October 2002

Yes there was a time when radials were only rotated front to back. IIRC it was because of stresses placed on the carcass or the inner body of the tire caused by the direction change. We are not talking about tread wear, but strain on the cords, belts, etc. Almost all tire makers (except pirelli, home website) and most carmakers recommend the modified x. I will assume you all know that means driven wheels stays on the same side of the car and non driven get x. HOWEVER, many car makers,mitsubishi, VW and nissan, plus others, all recommend front to back in their current owners manuals. I work for a Honda dealer, so I have access to late model trade in car and truck owners manuals. We are talking 99,00,01 and 02. In fact, late model VW owners manuals spell it out in CAPITAL LETTERS, do not change the rotation of the tires. Again, I would like to get TIRE GUYS input on this matter. He always had excellent info blended with experience.
I suspect that the mod x gives more even wear,but that front to back is easier on the tire body, and leads to less separations, pull and noise.

stever · October 2002

We love it when Tireguy pops in, but he doesn't get by too often anymore.

Where's Bret? He should be able to throw some light on the question.

Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

anonymous02 · October 2002

"I'm probably showing my age, but I recall when radial tires were supposed to be rotated front to back and bias ply tires were X rotated."

Wow, me too!

I wasn't even sure I was remembering it right.

Who knows the difference between "X" and "Modified X"?

Does modified include the spare?

alfox · October 2002

includes the spare.

I not only remember those days, I was running a tire store at the time radials were introduced domestically. BFG was the first (then) US manufacturer to build radials for consumer use, and they were pushing them to gain advantage over Goodyear and Firestone. The addage at the time in the business was that BF Goodrich invents it, Firestone takes credit for it and Goodyear sells it! Guess the succeeding years proved that to be approximately true.

In the early radial days Goodyear was vocally against them until they got their own radial products on-line - then they took over the domestic market, as usual. But they couldn't stop Michelin, who had been building radials for years and knew how to do it. Being a Goodyear marketing partner Chrysler actually recommended against radials on their cars for a number of years.

anonymous02 · October 2002

Goodyear Polyglas, then Polysteel. The Polysteel were a real cushy, nice riding radial.

I also had Firestone 721's on my 85 Corolla. Those things lasted a pretty long time.

alfox · October 2002

was a bias-ply tire that had real problems with belt end-splice separation. They got a rep for "broken" belts, which the public somehow equated to broken glass in their tires creating such a negative view of fiberglass belts that they stopped using the glass.

Same thing happened with 2-ply tires. Before belted tires and radials came to the US tires were of either 2-ply or 4-ply construction. The 2-ply tires were for lighter-duty applications, and so became associated with "cheap" tires. Actually a 2-ply carcass had the same cord count that 4-ply's did, and because of fewer ply layers they tended to build up less heat. Some very high quality 2-plys were made, but the public wouldn't accept them.

When belted and radial tires came along they all had (have) 2-ply carcasses to minimuze heat build-up. That tended to poison them at first, that and the "bulge" on the radials that consumers meant for sure would result in more curb damage, etc. The resistance disolved quickly, however, when people started reporting 2-3 times the treadware of the old tires. Within 5 years essentially the entire tire market changed over to radials.

bretfraz · October 2002

Lots of discussion going on. I love it when this thread picks up.

The current subject is one where I need to do a little more research. Clearly 21st Century tire technology has created some tire-specific and car-specfic rotation needs. On some cars no rotation is even possible (Corvette, Viper, etc).

The only comment I can make right now is to follow your owners manual recommendation. If I dig up more definitive info I'll try to answer some of the questions. Sorry, I'm not nor never was a tire installer like TIREGUY so I can't speak from experience.

But have a look at this link for some info:
http://www.yourtireprotection.com/about_tires/rotation.htm

heng · October 2002

My FWD sedans all wear the drivers side front tire faster that the passenger side front. Hence, it has to get miles on the other side.

Doesn't matter the tire brand or the driver.

edwardn1 · October 2002

In a mod-x patern, the driven wheels are not crossed but go straight to the non driven axle. The non-driven wheels get crossed on the way to
the driven axle.
In an x rotation, all wheels cross on the way to the opposite axle. If you do this patern twice then the tires wind up back where they started.
Back to the mod-x, if you use this patern the wheels visit all 4 positions over the next 4 rotations.
Depending on your wishes, if you have a full service spare, it can be included in either patern.
It should be obvious that the mod-x would lead to the most even treadwear and we are talking two wheel drive vehicles. My concern is if rotation is put off say 10k miles in our desert climate, does the stress of changing rotation direction (always happens when you x) hurt the inner workings of the tire more than the even wear helps. BTW, the mod-x is fine for 4wd vehicles operated mainly in 2wd.

heng · October 2002

Is there a source of info that compares Cooper Discovery A/Ts to other SUV suitable tires?

Tire Rack doesn't carry Coopers so they aren't in their data base.

bretfraz · October 2002

The only tests of them I've seen is in Consumer Reports. Can't recall if their last test included the Discovery's.

lovable90 · October 2002

Thought I'd pop my head in and let everybody know that I've had my Nokian NRWs for just about a year now, and I'm happy to report we're still in love! Was kinda puzzled about the Consumer Reports article, though. Maybe wet braking is not NRW's best suit, but it doesn't even brake long! I've had no problems. Maybe CR got a couple of bum sets of NRWs, though that hardly seems likely. Nokian's quality control is pretty good.

Anyway, keep on givin' the good advice. You sure helped me last year.

Noelle

heng · October 2002

braking performance. They seem to favor braking performance over every thing else. I've seen them rate BFG long trails over Michelin LTX M/S because of better braking. Yet most people really like the LTX M/S over the BFG's.

The BFG's may be better in braking but every one else says they are not sat for everything else. Yet CR chose them as best. Sounds like Nokian NRWs got the CR axe because of braking too.

lesliejoy · October 2002

Been posting on the XJ thread, but no one's been there.

Need some help on replacement tires. I currently have Pirelli's P4000E 225/60/16ZR 98W.

I was told by some tire guys the "98" is the weight load and is more important than the speed rate. Other tire people told me that it really only matters on trucks.

Is my speed rate on my current tires "W"? If so, what does the ZR stand for?

I've been looking at the Bridgestone Turanza LS-Z's. They got great ratings on tirerack.com. My question is that the weight load is 1609 and I think the weight load for 98 is 1653. Does anyone think this matters?

Does anyone have any experience or know someone who has these tires? I believe they just came out this spring. They make them in H, V or Z. I was leaning toward the Z because the V and the Z both have 40,000 mile warranties. Thought the Z would give a softer ride, and also one reviewer on tirerack.com switched from the V to the Z and was happier. The tire guy said I'd get more mileage on the V's, but I don't drive more than 8,000 miles per year, so I'm not that concerned.

Any opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Leslie

P.S. When shopping for tires, the prices are very negotiable. Went back and forth between Firestone retail shop and Tires Plus. They try to beat each other's price. Price for the Turanza's started at 194.99 each and ended up to be $139.99!!! It pays to shop!

alfox · October 2002

Go to tirerack.com and do some research. First, they have great information about what all the sidewall information means - it's worth the read. You'll find out that today the Z-rating is the only speed rating still encoded within the size nomenclature. 98W is the service rating.

Secondly, you can search by car to find all of the tires they carry that will fit your car.

Thirdly, but less important IMO is that you might find a better deal than in a local tireshop. But it's worth checking.

lesliejoy · October 2002

Thanks for responding. I did do all my research on tirerack.com when looking for the replacements. Just now, in fact, I found the page that describes the ZR and the W rating. Seems Z just means 149+ speed rating while ZR with a W means that the speed rating is actually 168. My concern was with the weight load, but I guess it doesn't really matter if it's 97 or 98. I really liked the reviews of the Turanza's (LS-Z's) and think I'll get those. The price on tirerack.com is $133/ea. plus $40 shipping, then mounting costs. It actually comes out cheaper for me to buy them locally. I got a price of $139.99 each.

Thanks again.
Leslie

alfox · October 2002

you're ahead of me. Good luck with your new shoes!

capriracer1 · October 2002

Let me explain the "98W" thing:

The 98 is the load index. You need a table which translates into kilograms (or pounds). I do not know why this wasn't listed directly, but it wasn't.

The load index on a tire is a function of the size, so if you stick with the same size you'll get the same load index. Be aware that P metric tires (starts with the letter P) and hard metric (no letter) are slightly different, but can be used pretty much interchangeably.

The W is the speed rating. In earlier times, the speed ratings stopped at V (up to 149 mph) and Z was open ended (the top speed of the vehicle), so you had to be careful to select tires that were at least as capable as the vehicle, which wasn't a problem at the time, because there so few vehicles capable of speed higher than 149 mph.

Times have changed and it became apparent that they needed some closed ended speed ratings in the upper ranges. So ETRTO (European Tire and Rim Technical Organization, the tire standardizing body in Europe) created 2 new speed ratings - W (up to 168 mph) and Y (up to 186 mph). Since you can't change the past, Z was left at open ended with the 149 mph lower limit.

The intent is to allow all the tire manufacturers time to do some testing, redesign, and to change the stamping on their molds. In the meantime, tires can be marked Z with or without the W or Y rating.

Hope this helps.

erichutchins · October 2002

If I have 17" diameter tires as standard and I replace them with 16" winter tires does that mean at a given rpm and gear I will be travelling slower?

alfox · October 2002

Check the specs and choose a size that has approximately the same overall diameter, and therefore a similar revolutions-per-mile. (The 16" and 17" are rim diameters at the bead seat.)

tidester · October 2002

You need a table which translates into kilograms (or pounds).

FYI, a quick approximation is to just MULTIPLY the number of kilograms by 2 to find the number of pounds.

If you need more accuracy, MULTIPLY by two then ADD 1/10 of that to find the number of pounds.

tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories

krzyss · October 2002

capriracer1 · October 2002

"FYI, a quick approximation is to just MULTIPLY the number of kilograms by 2
to find the number of pounds."

Just so there is no confusion - one Kilogram = 2.2 pounds (or thereabouts)

BUT

100 Load Index equals 800 KG or about 1760 pounds

AND

90 Load index equals 600 kg or about 1320 pounds.

In short, you still need a table to translate Load index into KG's and pounds.

mrk4 · October 2002

Looking to replace OEM Dunlops on 2000 Toyota Sienna after 32k miles. Yokohama avid tourings from Tirerack interested me although I really do not want the hassle of having to find installer and potential problems with mail order. I am also interested in Michelin X radials from BJs. This is the only place that sells these tires and I wonder if they are up to Michelin standards. They are as costly as other Michelins but I wonder about durability.

Anyone have either of these tires or other suggestions.

Thanks

pluto5 · October 2002

My local Costco will install any tires for $10 each. They don't care where they came from. Wal-Mart quoted a few dollars higher but said they would include lifetime balancing. I would rather order from Tirerack.

stickguy · October 2002

easiest thing is to use a preferred installer. They usaly charge around $12 or so to install, but you can have the tires shipped directly to them, so no hastle to you. Really no different from using a local tire shop if they don't have them on hand and have to order from the waqrehouse.

bretfraz · October 2002

Great to hear from you. I'm glad the tires are working out well.

- - Bret - -

heng · October 2002

Check out the info at Michelin.com. The X radial isn't quite up to the X-one and it seems they have dropped the X-Plus which I believe was a twin of the X-one.

stever · October 2002

The twin used to be the X Radial Plus. I got mine at Costco, and they may or may not have "Durablack" in them. I suspect the names and formulas have changed a few times since I got mine a couple of years ago.

Steve, Host

anonymous02 · October 2002

Just got some of these in 195/60R14.

Was going to get the Dunlop SP A2, but they were out, and the guy said these are even better.

I paid $49 per tire before add'l costs.

How'd I do?

This is for a 1996 Jetta.

mike1qaz · October 2002

I had a tire pick-up a triangular piece of metal on the interstate. It pierced the tire and has put a 5/8" cut in the interior of the tire. This slash is in the center of the tire tread and is a clean cut.

This being a Michelin MXV4+, at $115 a pop, I'd like to salvage the tire if possible and SAFE to do so. Can this tire be safely patched from the inside???

bretfraz · October 2002

If you haven't seen it, pick up a copy. It has their latest reviews on snow tires and all season tires. Also covers their past recommendations. A good little resource to keep if you are or will be in the market for tires.

alfox · October 2002

Should be able to fix that cut. The best repair is an umbrella plug that both patches the inside, and plugs the hole to keep the cords dry. NTB uses such a repair technique.

anonymous02 · October 2002

No ideas anybody on the Toyo Spectrum?

mike1qaz · October 2002

for the quick reply. By the way, what does NTB stand for and will most tire chains know what an umbrella plug is?

capriracer · October 2002

I doubt if anyone will repair a 5/8" slash. The largest repair approved by the RMA ( Rubber Manufacturer's Association) is 1/4".

The RMA is the collective voice of the rubber industry and reflects their considered advice.

IMHO, 5/8" is way too large to attempt a repair. The tire is likely to fail at some later date. I would not take the risk, if I were you.

BTW, NTB stands for National Tire and Battery.

Hope this helps.

fritz1224 · October 2002

Also, repairing a puncture like that will negate the speed rating that the tire has( H or V I assume).

bretfraz · October 2002

Not a bad little tire. According to their dealer broachure the Spectrum is, "an economical all season steel belted radial that delivers long treadlife and resists aquaplaning. One of Toyo's best buys!"

It states the typical customer match as, "value conscious first time replacement buyers interested in good mileage and comfort".

http://www.toyo.com/tires/tire_lines/conven_as/spectrum.html

Seems like a good choice vs. Firestone, General, Uniroyal, Kelly, etc.

mike1qaz · October 2002

In my heart I knew this, but I was hoping to cut corners and salvage a full size spare. To the graveyard it goes!

My four on the ground are approaching the wear bars and since I don't need an all-season tire, I'm considering the Sumitomo HTR 200 for my '01 LX Accord. I have no experience with this manufacturer, but the Tirerack description seems to fit my needs.

Any feedback on this tire would be greatly appreciated.

bretfraz · October 2002

For those who are members and need new tires, there is a $60 off promo at Costco on the purchase of four (4) Michelin tires only. Applies to Michelin passenger car and light truck tires. Promo runs from Oct 21 to Nov 3. Good for in stock and special ordered tires as long as purchase is made between those dates. Your rebate is processed immediately at the register - lots better than having to mail in a coupon or something.

bretfraz · October 2002

The Michelin Energy MXV4 Plus' on the ol' Saab are showing serious wear on the outer shoulders; down to 2/32 and no more than 4/32 on the inner shoulders. But I am happy that the tires are still quiet and smooth. The wear is extremely even among all four tires showing that my frequent tire rotation and pressure checks are paying off. I'm a bit disappointed that I've only got 25K out of them but that's what I get for all the hard driving I've done.

So I stopped by some of the local tire dealers and whse. clubs to see what they were offering in 215/55-16. Here's what I found:

Firestone
Bridgestone RE950 - $99.99
Bridgestone Turanza LSH - $99.99
Goodyear
Dunlop SP Sport A2 - $99.00
Dunlop FM901 - $89.00
Amazingly they didn't suggest a Goodyear tire! I asked about the F1 GS-D2 but they couldn't give me a price as they are being discountinued (I knew that and was hoping for a great deal)
Sears
Michelin XGTV4 - $164.99 (on sale)
Yokohama A550V - $124.99
Michelin Energy MXV4 Plus H rated - $172.99
Dunlop SP Sport A2 - $165.99 (uhhh... just a bit overpriced....)
Needless to say I will not be purchasing at Sears.
Sams Club
Michelin Energy MXV4 Plus H rated - $125.32
Goodyear F1 GS-D2 - $136.04 (great price!!)
Mounting & balancing is $9 per tire.
Costco
Michelin Energy MXV4 Plus H rated - $135.99
Michelin Energy MXV4 Plus V rated - $146.99
Michelin Pilot Sport A/S - $184.99
Michelin Pilot Primacy - $185.99
Bridgestone RE950 - $114.99
Mounting & balancing is included.
Kaufmann Tire (local chain)
Toyo Proxes FZ4 - $119.99
They only offered me Toyo and Mastercraft eventhough they are a Pirelli dealer too. The salesguy was the only person who pointed out that since my car came with V rated tires that's all they would sell me due to potential liability issues.

Clearly the Firestone dealer had the best prices as long as I wanted Bridgestone. He highly recommended the Turanza and said he's been installing lots of them on high end cars with very satisfied customers.

I still haven't made up my mind nor am I finished shopping but I thought I'd share these prices with y'all. Comments, questions, ideas welcome.

stickguy · October 2002

I'd be deciding between the Turanzas and SP sport A2s.

actually, you can do the research for me. I have a Mxima with 39k on it, and the OE Toyos are running short on tread. Pefectly even wear on each tire, no problems at the edges. My car wears the same size as yours, and there aren't usually too many choices.

I did look at tirerack recently, and they had Yoko Avids (touring or H4, not sure which) for about $65, which is probably what I would go for, since I hope to get new wheels in the spring, and may not make the winter on these tires (they are lousy in the wet).

stever · October 2002

That savings on 4 Michelins will pay for a couple of years membership dues at Costco. Of course, then you'll want to shop there every week, and that'll cost you a fortune.

Great research on the tire prices, Bret - thanks!

Steve, Host

anonymous02 · October 2002

I'd get them if I were you.

I had some prior generation to those Sumitomo's and loved them.

Great performance and decent wear for a performance tire. Don't expect them to be good in snow. I'd get snow tires for Thanksgiving through April here in Taxachusetts anyhow. I generally find "all season" tires to be a compromise in all 4 seasons.

lesliejoy · October 2002

Bret,

I did all the research and just put the Bridgestone Turanza LS-Z's on my 1998 XJ8L Jaguar yesterday.

Don't put anything less than a V on your car! You'll get better handling on a higher speed rated tire because the sidewall are stronger. Read about tires on tirerack.com. I learned a whole lot!!!!

I chose the Z's because of the reviews on tirerack.com. (One guy had originally bought the LS-V's and switched to the Z's. He said they handled better).

My decision was also between the Michelin Pilot Sports A/S and the Bridgestone Turanza's. The Turanza's have a 40,000 mile treadwear warranty where the Pilot's don't. The warranty is the same for the LS-V's and LS-Z's, so I got the Z's.
The Turanza's just came out this spring and have the newest technology.

One thing you should know is that tire prices are very negotiable. I paid $134.99 finally after first being quoted $194.99 (retail price).
It may be cheaper for you, as it depends on tire size. My tire size is 225/60/16.
I first got a quote from Tireplus.com on the internet. Then I went to a Tireplus and they gave me an even better price. I then went to Firestone who beat Tireplus's price. Once you decide which tire you want, shop it for price.

I just got the tires yesterday, but they are quiet and handle well. The Turanza's are Grand Touring All Season tires, which is what I wanted for the Jaguar.

Good luck.

lesliejoy · October 2002

Just checked the Bridgestone website and want you to know that the Turanza's (LS-Z) don't come in your size. The closest size is 225/55/16.

I would NOT put a "H" rated tire on the car. Don't go below the lowest recommeded speed rate of "V".

The best tires in your size would probably be the Michelins Pilot Sport A/S.

Hope this helps!

Leslie

mike1qaz · October 2002

Being that I live in the deep South, I have no need for an all-season tire since we seldom get ice or snow on our roads. Lots of rain, potholes and dips though. I believe a 3season tire will meet my needs, thats why I'm considering the HTR200.

But, I'm also looking at the Bridgestone RE950 and the Dunlop SP A2 like others.

I'll be doing something soon because all 4 MXV4+s are near the wear bars at 79k. The Michelins were nice interstate cruising tires on smooth roads, but their wet traction wasn't great. I think I may be able to find better traction for less $ and not give away much in noise and handling.

Anyone out there have Sumitomo HTR200s on a 98-02 Accord?

bretfraz · October 2002

Thanks for all the great info. Sounds like we are on the same track. I'd love a set of the Pilot A/S but price is a consideration so I'm juggling all that.

I'm leaning towards another set of Michelin MXV4's from Costco to take advantage of the rebate. It would put me at the same price as the Turanza LSH and RE950. A set of Pilot A/S even with the rebate would run me $725 installed and that a bit steep for me. But I agree, the Pilot A/S is the ultimate tire of its type on the market and the best stuff is always gonna be pricey.

lesliejoy · October 2002

Do you have a Tires Plus near you? If you do, they will beat anyone's price. I was amazed how fast $$ came off each tire when I asked!

Can't hurt to shop once you know which tire you want!

Good luck!

Leslie

alfox · October 2002

I appologize for dispensing bad advice. I have to remember that my information may be too old for modern tires. When I used to repair tires we were trained to repair up to a 3/4" cut as long as it was in the central tread area (inside the first rib) and as long as it was patched with an internal patch. I guess times have changed. Guess I'd better let people more knowledgeable in current products be the experts.

Tires, tires, tires

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles