Tires, tires, tires

colin_l · August 2009

The rubber compound actually does not perform at low temperatures, to the point that it will be noticeably hard and slick instead of grippy.

A high performance vehicle (which is what most summer tires are mounted on) will not brake, corner or even accelerate as well if you do use a summer tire in cold, dry temperatures.

oldfarmer50 · August 2009

"...will not brake,corner or even accelerate as well..."

That's what I thought. So it's a matter of reduced performance rather than having something happen to the integrity of the tire itself. In other words the tire won't blow up if you drove it in winter.

mz6greyghost · August 2009

In other words the tire won't blow up if you drove it in winter.

Correct, but you and/or your car would if you tried to drive on them in 3" of snow.

capriracer · August 2009

".........That's what I thought. So it's a matter of reduced performance rather than having something happen to the integrity of the tire itself......."

There is one possibility that I should point out.

Rubber compounds have "glass transition temperatures", where the properties change at given temperatures. These will vary from compound to compound - and ceratin between manufacturers.

But there is a temperature below which rubber compounds tend to become brittle and crack. This, of course, also varies from compound to compound. In most cases, this temperature is bitterly cold - say below -20°F

Nevertheless, it is good advice that summer tires should not be used below 40°F.

stickguy · September 2009

I have a 2000 Acura TL. My sons car, that is now my "spare" car since he is away at college (freshman). There is, however, a chance that I sell my other car and just keep the TL until next summer when he needs it again.

Anyway, the tire issue. Discovered recently that 1 tire (RF) has a small sidewall bulge (an impact break from the couple of tire guys that looked at it). Probably has been there for a while, since the kid remembers hitting a big pothole back in late winter/early spring, and there is some cracking around the bump.

question is two fold: How dangerous is it to drive with, and what should I do to replace?

tires on car are 4 years old, 58K on them, but still with ~4/32 tread (very evenly worn too). OEM replacement Micheling (MXV4, maybe energy? Something I don't think they make anymore).

Too much wear to replace 1 (and the comparable tire tends to be a ridiculous price).

I have never been a fan of replacing just 2 tires, but right now, I am not a fan of spending much money on this car.

So, how much will I notice (actual drving, not the mental aspect of knowing about it and having it bug me) if I put 2 other tires on one end? Have been considering Eagle GT (for price), Yoko Avids, and Potenza G019 girds.

For now, I am only using the car around town a couple days per week to give it some exercise, so maybe 30-40 miles local?

Am I taking my life in my hands ignoring the issue for a while? And, would I be nuts to put on just 2 tires, even though the rears have a decent amount of life on them?

stickguy · September 2009

car drives fine. Perfect alignment, no vibration at all even at highway speed (damn thing has better tire balance then my other 2 cars!)

jeffyscott · September 2009

4/32nds is the new 2/32nds and some would say your tires are worn out...assuming there is rain from time to time.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=51

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/tires-auto-parts/tires/how-safe-are-worn- -tires/overview/

mz6greyghost · September 2009

Firstly, ANY tire with a bulge in the sidewall is dangerous, and should be replaced immediately. A bulge usually indicates a structural deformity in the sidewall, which significantly increases the chance of a blowout...

As for replacements, personally, I think that 4/32nds is about time to change into new tires, and I'd do all four, because although it may be your "spare" car, it's still also your sons, which I'm sure he'll drive it when he's home. I'd feel safer with four new tires compared to two new tires and two others that are on their last rotation.

As for brands, there are plenty of choices that are around or below $100 each that are good choices. Check out Tirerack.com. I also recommend the Yoko Avids, since they are on my Mazda6, and have been excellent in all aspects of traction and wear for a decent price...

Good luck.

stickguy · September 2009

I pulled out the last report on the TL. As of the last oil change (1K ago) the Honda dealer said it had 6/32 all the way around.

I thought they looked better than 4!

The original tires on the car (same model) made it to 91K, but I have no idea how bald they were at that point.

stickguy · September 2009

Turns out that they still make Kelly springfield tires. Got a good price quote on Kelly CHarger GTs. Looked nice enough, and had A traction and temperature ratings.

Anyone have any experience or thoughts on these?

stickguy · September 2009

Looked up the Kelly's on line, and didn't find anything to be impressed about. Certainly not enough to be worth ~$50 on a set of 4!

frm making the rounds, looks like the best deal (dropping down to an H from a V) is either the Avid H4S of Potenza Grid G019.

not surprising, the same exact pair I had to choose from back in April when I put tires onthe Accord (same size and everything).

Probably will go with the Avids that I put on the accord. They certainly have worked well, and from the tirerack test, the Yokos have better wet traction than the Girds (always a plus, especially when the kid is driving!)

0123456789 · September 2009

Hello,

I have a 2003 car with 19,000 miles on it. The car still has the original tires on it. It seems like one of the tires has a slow air leak in it. This one tire leaks down from the recommended 29 PSI to 25 PSI in a day and to 20 PSI in a week. However, it doesn't seem to get fully deflated even after months (the lowest was like 13 PSI after many months). I've got two questions:

1. What might be a possible cause of a tire air leak that doesn't seem to fully deflate the tire even after many months? If the tire had a puncture, wouldn't it eventually become fully deflated and visibly flat?

2. Is it possible that permanent, unrepairable damage has been done to that tire from driving the car for 6 years and 19,000 miles with the tire severely underinflated (below 20 PSI)? It is possible this air leak was present when I bought the car new. I wasn't very diligent about checking the tire pressure, so it took me a while to figure out that there might be a slow air leak. The tire looked normal to me.

Thank you in advance for your response!

ruking1 · September 2009

Slow leaks can be caused by any number of things. The best thing to do is to bring it into a tire shop, so they can troubleshoot/isolate/correct. As part of the process they can inspect your external and probably more importantly, your internal tire structure.

obyone · September 2009

Tires being 6 years old should be replaced. That should solve the slow leak and any concern over damage caused by running an under inflated tire.

ruking1 · September 2009

It can be truly pristine or a disaster waiting for a place to happen. Inspection by a professional is at the very least, a second opinion.

0123456789 · September 2009

Thank you for the responses ruking1 and obyone. I will take it to a tire shop and see what they think of the problem.

marsha7 · September 2009

is driving me nuts...I have 2004 Crown Vic, OEM tires were Goodyear Eagle LS and the car rode smooth as glass for 48,000 miles...I then had the tires replaced with new LS tires, and we went thru about 7 sets of tires because none of them could be balanced...the car would ALWAYS vibrate between 50-70 mph...we finally settled on Eagle RS-A tires, which vibrated the least, but still never ran smooth...

At 98,000 miles, time for new tires (car now has 128,000 miles)...again we went thru 3 sets of Goodyears, always bad vibration (steering wheel shakes and my seat vibrates) between 50-70 mph...so we changed to Michelins, still the same problem...tires have been road-force balanced, and balanced on three different computer balance machines...all machines balance it to "00", but on the car they still vibrate...

All 3 machine technicians have told me that my wheels are NOT bent, yet no one can balance these tires...does anyone have any thoughts of this???

There is a place that advertises they can balance wheels ON the car, I thought of trying them, but how can they balance rear wheels on the car at high speed since the axles connect to the differential???

This is driving me nuts since 2006, and it is so odd that the factory tires/wheels were perfectly balanced, and no one has done it right since then...and these are all tire specialty shops!!!

What would my next step be from here???

kiawah · September 2009

Have you considered that the problem might not be the tires?

- Loose body part (like air dam under the car), that begins flapping in the wind as the speed picks up.
- Shocks (or Struts, don't know the Vic suspension) bad
- Driveshaft/axles out of balance
- Is the alignment in spec, or a bad ball joint, causing premature wear of the tire throwing it off balance?

imidazol97 · September 2009

>What would my next step be from here???

Several thoughts. Which Michelins did you put on? And they were Road Force balanced? The Michelins should have been nearly perfect if the Road Force tech knew what he was doing...

Did it come on with the new tires and the old ones were great and smooth?

Has it been aligned to the Nines--right on the optimum setting. Some cars are sensitive to slight variation from the optimum alignment. The old tires may have worn and become flex-adapted to the slight misalignment. I am thinking of GM H-bodies with the sensitivity to alignment and out-of-round; I really haven't heard it discussed re Fords.

I see two approaches. One is to take it to a Ford dealer with a long-time (old and/or knowledgeable) alignment guy. Let him check every rubber bushing, link, and other part for wear. Two would be to find an independent shop guy who understands the physics of everything about a car and he might find it.

Is there any chance it's a brake rotor slightly out-of-round bumping the caliper and causing a vibration? Or a caliper dragging slightly.

A comment that's my opinion about replacing a popular new car tire with a like tire. I was told the better tires go to the new car plants and the slightly less than perfect tires go to the service dealers for replacements. I had a Century that came new with a particular brand of tire which I won't name and it was as good or better driving than the Michelins I had on the other Century. When I replaced the tire at a dealer, the tires were out-of-round/out-of-balance all the way to Charleston (SC) and back. When I went to the tire store, he didn't even offer to put on another set of same national brand tire; he recalled I'd priced Michelins along with the national brand and he put on Michelins at no extra charge. That was when I heard that replacements sometimes weren't as good as the new car version.

ruking1 · September 2009

I think a lot of it has to do with how FORD builds their cars specifically alignment and suspension sub systems. It would seem that since yours is a Crown Victoria and local police departments push modified Crown Vics, the municipality mechanics that service police Crown Victorias would be an awesome resource. The worse the shop supervisor could say is no, so I would ask him and ask to speak with the mechanics and or him/her.

kiawah · September 2009

Just thought of something.

Take your spare tire out, and start rotating it thru the 4 different positions....and see if the symptoms change and/or vibration goes away.

imidazol97 · September 2009

Does that car have lubed suspension joints or are they all sealed. I'm wondering about wear due to lack of lube.

The spare is a good idea. It probably has a full-sized spare.

imidazol97 · September 2009

What would be great is if a shop or someone you know has a full set of wheels that are on a car equivalent to yours that roll okay and you could temporarily switch them with your wheels to test them on your car. That would eliminate the current wheels or would incriminate them. Check your email on your profile.

weeter · September 2009

I'm new in town, so if this is a stupid question, be kind. I have a Japanese mini truck (honda acty) that needs 12 inch tires. I want street tires, not off-road tires. These are available for about $40 a tire which is OK, but I see tons of 12 inch trailer tires for a lot less. When I purchased "trailer tires" for my car dolly, they told me the only difference was much stiffer sidewalls. So my question is, "Could I use the trailer tires on the little truck?" -- would anyone mount and balance them for me if they'd fit? Who is an expert on this?

kiawah · September 2009

Be careful of the rim width. Every trailer 12" trailer tire I've had is a very narrow tire, that mounts on a relatively narrow rim.

I used to own an old Honda many years ago with 12" tires, and they were substantially wider than a trailer tire, which would have a wider rim.

The other problem will be tire heat and speed. You don't pull a trailer at 70 or 80 mph, which are speeds that you could easily hit in a vehicle.

Just stick with a vehicle tire, this is not worth getting killed over with some blowout and wreck in the middle of the night somewhere.

Check tirerack.com

marsha7 · September 2009

Alignment was checked and was perfect...at 50K miles, with the OEM tires smooth as glass, alignment was perfect, was not even tweaked...

The vibration problem literally started with the first set of replacement tires...suspension components have been checked, altho I found it hard to believe that some suspension component went bad in the 60 minutes it was on the lift while changing the OEM tires...

I had thought of driveshaft imbalance, but the same question applies...why would the drive shaft become unbalanced in the 60 minutes it sat on the lift removing OEM tires...it didn't fall off the lift, I was there...same thought with the disc rotors, we could not find a "clean" spot where a balance weight may have fallen or been knocked off...

The shop that I am now at is the shop that maintains the county police cars...all Crown Vics...

Shocks seem to be OK, and, again, same question...why would (or how could) shocks go bad in the 60 minutes the car was on the lift with the first tire change???

I am NOT trying to be obstinate here, but I think we covered all of your thoughts, which I appreciate...

The one thought that keeps coming back to me is this...despite being told from 3 shops that the wheels are not bent, that keeps coming back to me as one main variable from the first tire change...that maybe the tech bent the wheel, since he did work on all 4 of them, and maybe bent just slightly, but enough to cause this "impossible to balance" problem...I just hate to spend $400 on wheels and find out I am wrong...

Any followup thoughts???

Is there some machine that can balance a driveshaft, or are they possibly not too expensive and can be replaced cheaper than trying 4 new wheels???...maybe I can "borrow" one from a police car???

Oh, U-joints were checked, too...same question always comes up...why would something in perfect balance for 48000 miles suddenly become impossible to balance after coming off a lift???...that is why I tend to think that a wheel was bent, but that is why I am asking those of you who know more than I do...

Again, thanks for your thoughts...

stickguy · September 2009

after reading all the back and forth, I agree that the bent wheel theory is liekly.

But, wouldn't this show up when they tried to balance? I apparently have a slightly bent wheel on my odyssey (according to the guy at NTB that last balanced them), but he could tell on the machine, and had a heck of a time (and used a lot of wieght) to dial it in. But, once he got it, no problem on the car.

I like the suggestion of trying different, known to be good wheels. If it is the shop that does the CV fleet, maybe they could swing this at some point? Won't need long.

The other option of course if you had a full sze spare is use that. Or, find 1 lone wheel, and swap it on 1 at a time to see when the problem goes away.

finally, yes a suspension peiece can go bad in those 60 minutes, if they soemhow screwed up something (maybe bent something?) But again, seems like it would show up at other speeds, or with alignment issues.

The real solution? buy a new car.

imidazol97 · September 2009

Bent rim: the Road Force balancer would have shown that there was some bend in the rim. What you really need is to switch wheels with a Vic that has wheels and tires that are rolling round. Maybe a wrecking yard could be a source for 4 wheels off a wrecked car cheap? Maybe you could come up with two good rims and wheels and put them on the back and test, and then move them to the front and test.

A driveshaft is rotating several times while a wheel rotates once; the frequency of the vibration would be different.

Without driving the car to "feel" the vibration under different situations, it's almost impossible to judge from where it's coming. One thing is you can run the rear wheels with the car up on a lift. If it were driveshaft or something about the physical wheels and rear axle, you might get a feel of the vibration; the difference is the suspension components are under weight so the bushings are in their usual positions and loads. The front wheels individually can be spun by a spin balancer on the car...

capriracer · September 2009

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. If it was me, I would have started looking for a different answer after the second set of tires.

One possibility: Vented brake rotors are sometimes balanced by applying a sprung coil of metal into one of the vents. These rust right along with the rest of the rotor - and can fall out. That would explain why the vibration suddenly appeared and nothing else seems to fix it.

Unfortunately, a lot of time has come and gone, and the evidence that there used to be one of these coils in the rotor will be gone as well.

Also unfortunately, most shops are not equipped to solve vibrations that aren't tire and wheel related. Once they road force and balance the assembly, they can't do much more - which is why they tend to do that procedure over and over again - Insane!!

Finding the source of a vibration takes some sophisticated equipment - and about the only place you are going to find that equipment is with a vehicle manufacturer. If you can find a Ford Service Engineer who is not only knowledgeable, but is also willing to work with you (and you might have to pay a bunch for the service!), this guy ought to be able to track down where the vibration is coming from.

Given how bad the economy is right now, I would bet that it will be difficult to get one of these guys to spend much time trying to solve a problem on an older car. Kinda hard to justify to management!

Nevertheless, good luck.

stickguy · September 2009

I have been poking around looking for a deal good enough to make me break down and replace the tires on my 3.2TL (once has a sidewall bubble from an impact break.)

Although I finally found a tire store guy that said don't bother to replace now if I was just doing local driving! Ask enough people until you get the answer you want I guess...

Anyway, I can get a nice sale this week on BFG advantage TA (V rated). Looks nice enough, but not too many review on Tirerack.

Anyone have opinions or experience? General use, with wet driving feel important. Will have to be prepared for some snow duty (hopefully nothing to deep).

the other option at the moment was a Goodyear Eagle GT.

prasadp · October 2009

Can is install a different size than a recommended size for my car?

my car needs P185/60R14 I found some set of tires in junk yard but of different size with is P175/60R14.

my car is 1997 Mitsubishi mirage LS coupe

please advise.

stickguy · October 2009

they should fit. But in general, junkyard tires are a risky way to save a few $$. For one thing, you have no idea what condition they are in internally. You should also check the manufacture date to see how old they are (tires do have a shelf life).

Your size (14") are generlaly pretty darned cheap anyway. And since you still have to pay to have them mounted, how much are you really going to save (plus you get tires with a ful allotment of tread!)

Just did a quick check, but justtires (a chain in NJ) has nice DUnlop SP sport A/S tires for $48.77 in that size.

stickguy · October 2009

actually, the issue with fitting will be the width of th erim. Tires usually fit a range of widths, but it is possible the 175 might be too narrow if the 185 is the minimum width for your rims.

oregonboy · October 2009

I would think that the load rating might be a deal breaker. Some places might not be willing to mount tires with less than the car manufacturer's recommended load capacity.

If you can possibly afford it, either new tires, or near-new, factory "take-offs" would be a much safer choice.

prasadp · October 2009

Thank you stickguy.

kkovak · October 2009

I need to replace the tires on my 2003 Avalon which has ~60K miles on it.

Driving is split 50/50 highway and city with the highway usually not over 80-85 mph.

Can anyone recommend a couple of good alternatives?

Thanks
Ken

rcarr7 · October 2009

Funny, but what I would recommend for the Avalon, happens to fit 2 entirely different cars and sizes (VW TDI's)

1. Michelin Primacy MXV4
2. General Altimax HP

If price is an issue, item #2 is $43. cheaper per tire or -$172. per set of 4.

mz6greyghost · October 2009

Any winter driving involved? Or is it all just dry and wet conditions WITHOUT snow/ice?

kkovak · October 2009

Yes, snow and ice would be present here in Eastern Pennsylvania. We don't force ourselves to drive much in snow and ice, just if caught out in it.

THanks
Ken

woodyww · October 2009

What are the current tires on your Avalon? Were you happy with them? Have you checked tirerack.com for tires for your car? Great resource.

Also, *We don't force ourselves to drive much in snow and ice, just if caught out in it.* It only takes a few times per winter for snow and ice performance to matter......

jipster · January 2010

Lately I've noticed that new concrete being laid down on interstates and highways has heavy grooves(maybe 1/4 or 1/8 inch deep) running either vertically or horizontally the full width of all lanes. I suppose this is for better traction and maybe drainage. I would think that running tires over this would shorten their life... over say concrete that hasn't been roughed up. To what degree it would shorten a tires life is a guess... maybe a couple thousand miles over the life of the tire? Also, the rougher surface seems like it would influence the mpg of cars riding on the surface, say a half a mile a gallon of gas less. It would also seem the horizontally grooved lines in the road would hinder mpg more than vertical lines. Anybody else notice this, or do I just have too much time on my hands? I know weird questions, but this discussion has been dead now for a couple months, most unusual. :surprise:

capriracer · January 2010

1) Most tire wear occurs in cornering. Driving straight ahead is practically free.

That means the grooves in the pavement aren't going to have much effect on the wear rate.

2) Rolling resistance is mostly a function of the amount of deflction that takes place in a tire.

That means that grooves in the pavement aren't going to have much effect because the deflection is mostly a function of the load and pressure of the tire, and very little with the friction developed by the contact patch.

3) There is a term called "Groove Wander", also referred to as "Tramling", where the tire tends to follow the grooves in the pavement.

Needless to say, cross wise grooves (grooves crossing the direction of travel) would have no effect, but grooves in the same direction of travel will line up with the grooves the tire and sometimes cause this phenomenon. Since the dsicovery of this phenomenon, most pavement grooving patterns (the width and the spacing) have been standardized enough so the tire manufacturers can space the grooves in their tires such that there isn't a noticeable problem. However, occassionally, an odd combination of pavement vs tire will occur and the phenomenon will appear.

From what I have been able to tell, groove wander is the only problem will grooved pavement.

stickguy · January 2010

with BFG Advantage T/As? Looking for new sneaks for a TL, and right now, they are the leading contender. WIll have to deal OK with snow though.

ilyaz · February 2010

I have a '01 Ford Focus wagon. Lately, the car has become fairly loud, especially at higher speeds. One contributing factor is old tires. I need to get news ones, and I was told that certain tires are louder than others even when new. So can I get tires that are relatively good quality and quiet while also not being overly expensive? If they are only for 20-30K miles instead of 60-75K that's OK since we're thinking of getting a new car withing the next 1-1.5 years. Any recommendations? Thanks much!

srs_49 · February 2010

It's hard to tell how loud a tire is going to be ahead of time. You could go to TireRack.com for reviews of particular tires, but drivers perceptions and tolerance for things like road noise are very subjective.

Since you're only planning on keeping the car another year or two, I would look for a special at your local tire dealer, something like 4 tires for $200-$250 or so. Just make sure the dealer will replace them for only the difference in the tire price if you are not satisfied with the road/noise. Many tire places offer a 30 day return/exchange policy, no questions asked.

Keep in mind that, in addition to the lower expected tire life, low-cost tires also are usually not as good when it comes to handling and braking, particularly under wet conditions.

jeffyscott · February 2010

I think CR gives a noise rating in their tests as does Tire Rack (their own tests, not consumer ratings).

mary_smith · February 2010

Are there some brands of tires that just squeal all the time or especially loud when turning corners or backing into a parking spot? Whenever I hear tires squealing for no apparent reason, I always laugh to myself and think, those must be Daytona Radials (obviously this was the brand that always squealed for me)

capriracer · March 2010

Since no one else is going to respond, I'll give it a shot!

Tire squealing is caused by many things, but mostly it is caused a thing called Akerman. Akerman is the difference in steering angle between the tire when the steering wheel is turned - that is, the tires on the inside of the turn need to be turned more (smaller radius), than the tires on the outside of the turn.

Some cars have steering geometries that are less than optimal for Akerman - plus it is difficult to get a steering geometry that works for both highway speeds and parking lot manuevers.

For example, I had a mid 80's Ford van that had the worst possible Akerman - none! Every time I went into a parking garage and had to make sharp turns, the tires squealed.

But there are tires that would be noisy at certain conditions that are tiggered by less than optimal steering geometries - but this isn't a brand type of thing. Not to mention that driving surface also seems to have a major affect - smooth concrete surfaces seem to be worse.

srs_49 · March 2010

I gonna make a guess also. This has to do with tires that squeal when in a turn.

When you turn the the steering wheel, the front tires turn also (obviously). The tires try to pull the car into a new line. However, there is a thing called slip angle, which is the difference between where the tire is pointed and where the tire is actually going. For instance, say you want the front of the car to steer 20 deg right. Well, in order for that to happen, the front tires may have to be steered to 22 deg or 25 deg. The difference between the desired and actual steering angle is the slip angle.

So, since the direction the tire is moving and the center line of the tire are different, the tread of the tires squirms, or walks across the roadway in order to make up for the slip angle. This squirming causes a noise.

What the noise sounds like is very dependent on the tread pattern of the tire, the rubber compound, the slip angle, tire pressure, steering geometry, road surface - a whole host of things. That's why it's almost impossible to say, before actually trying a tire, whether it's going to be ones that squeals a lot or not.

kiawah · March 2010

I had a 97 suburban that had front tire squeal. Took me a little while to figure out it had a bad lower ball joint, and was going out of alignment.

Got the ball joint replaced, front end re-aligned (again), and the squealing problem went away.

Tires, tires, tires

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