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Lexus RX 300

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Comments

  • gohuskiesgohuskies Member Posts: 40
    I have been RX300 shopping in the Northwest and discovered that two Dealerships, one in Portland and North Seattle are controlled by Kuni in Portland and that the Bellevue and Tacoma dealerships have the same ownership. Therefore, they control which options and option packages are available in the Northwest. One option that is not readily available is the "Nakamichi Audio System Package" which includes HID headlights without the Navigation system. The audio package requires a special order, which they discourage and requires 3-4 months from order to arrival.
    I have found one Northwest dealer who is very competitive on pricing and will accept special orders. The dealer is "Kendall Lexus of Eugene", Oregon, contact Dan David at 800-43-Lexus.
    Also, many good tire shops and some dealerships have local chrome, exchange wheels for $800-900. In my case I have used the same tire dealer for three previous sets of wheels and have found the quality to be superior to original factory plating.
  • gonzo7gonzo7 Member Posts: 259
    MPG in town averages for me:
    2000 Nissan Xterra 4x4: 15.3
    1999 RX300 4x4: 18.7- "regular" fuel.

    I bought my chrome wheels from the person who supplies the local Lexus dealers. The dealer gets 1795 for a set of his wheels. He charged me $550 including the labor/rebalances.
    You can also check:

    www.4chromewheels.com
    and chromeyourwheels.com
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Other than tractors on the farm in Arkansas I first learned to drive in the AF in 1958 in New Hampshire. Often had to drive out on the runway ramp there and at Goose Bay when it was icy and covered with snow so they gave us a good lesson so we would not have to pay for damaging a B47 or KC97 or worse.

    Spent a few years in central Montana to boot.

    My conclusions about RX FWD vs AWD vs AWD & Trac are first, Logical, but also draw on my many years of driving RWD and 4WD in rather adverse conditions.

    Living in the Pacific Northwest as I do I have sworn that I will NEVER own a FWD vehicle and the 2000 AWD RX is the closest I ever hope to come to aborting that stand.

    Lexus dropped the limited slip differential from the 2001 options list because the Trac system makes it needless.

    With its normal, or latent, 70/30 front to rear torque distribution the 2000 RX AWD is basically a FWD vehicle until there is enough differential wheel "spin", front to rear, to heat the viscous fluid and thus increase the amount of torque delivered to the rear axle. Notice I did not say "rear wheels".

    In the 2000 it would have been the job of the (optional) limited slip differential to "decide" which of the rear wheels would get the (most) driving torque.

    I really no real idea how long it would take to "heat" the viscous fluid to a level sufficient to couple additional torque to the rear axle but I suspect that the number would certainly be in the range of many hundreds of milliseconds when the vehicle is first started after setting outside all night in a sub-freezing climate. I even wonder if one could rely on as much as an 80/20 torque distribution in such circumsatnces.

    It is my understanding that the Lexus Trac system uses the ABS wheelspeed sensors to detect that a given wheel or wheels have lost traction and will instantaniously apply the brakes to any wheel or wheels that spin "out-of-control".

    This "delay", inherent in viscous clutch systems would also help to explain why my two Jeeps, an 87 and a 92, would always perform much better in adverse conditions in (part-time) 4WD rather than (full-time via viscous clutch) AWD.
  • kuangtickuangtic Member Posts: 14
    I live in Beaverton, OR and I am going to buy a 2001 RX300 AWD, who is your sales person at Lexus of Portland? Is the car you get a demo unit or brand-new one? To get that price ($500 over invoice, what did you do? Do you have to haggle a lot?

    Thanks for info.
  • finch3finch3 Member Posts: 113
    Sue....... had a 98 Pathfinder before I bought a 2000 RX. It's pretty much the difference between a car and a truck. While competent, with many nice features, and a much improved engine, the Pathfinder still has that truck suspension and you will feel the bumps everywhere except at highway speeds.
  • bigorangerx300bigorangerx300 Member Posts: 1
    Hello to all my felow man kind Lexus RX300 owners.
    First of all, I can't believe you complian about the RX300. WHAT WERE YOU THINKING IN THE FIRST PLACE??? That you would be able to go "off road" ?? If you wanted to go off road get yourself a Ford Explorer!! The RX 300 was NOT designed as a "off road" SUV anyway. If you were RESPONSIBLE, and an educated person, you would have done your "homework" and research the RX300. I love the RX300, it is a great SUV, and for people to complain about it is STUPID!!!! If one little thing is out of placed, everyone yells about it. I would like to see you guys try to build a BETTER SUV and sell it!!!!! It's a Lexus , therefore, it is going to be Expensive, what you thought it would only cost $1,000---NO WAY--Put You foot where your mouth is!!!
  • mooretorquemooretorque Member Posts: 241
    If that was "first of all", can't wait to read "second".
  • jeffmust2jeffmust2 Member Posts: 811
    BigO -

    I can't put my foot where my mouth is; from all your previous posts (under a different name now, eh GT?), don't you remember that's where us yuppie RX owners store our Starbucks supply?

    Glad to have you back; it's way too tame over here. But try to calm down before that ol' blood pressure overheats...hey, did you ever take delivery of the Santa Fe Dream SUV or are you still putt-putting around in the '83 Mustang with 900,000 miles?
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    When I bought my first Lexus, a 92 LS400, in late 1991, I did so because I had decided that it was far and away the best car for the money in that class. That car is still in my "family" today and it has NEVER been back to the shop for repairs. But I would be the very first to tell you that it is not without design flaws, or design aspects that really cannot be called "flaws" but design aspects that clearly could easily be improved upon.

    Lexus' motto was "The Relentless Pursuit of Perfection", and now it has been changed to "The Passionate Pursuit of Perfection", either way it is an acknowledgement that "we're not there yet, folks!".

    Now, I "live" in the electronics manufacturing segment and I firmly believe that customer feedback is the MOST valuable feedback we can obtain for improving our products, and yes, even sometimes discovering and correcting design flaws that somehow slipped by us.

    Maybe you live in the sunbelt and can't quite accept that the further north you live, sometimes an "off-road" condition comes to you, not you to it.

    But, just as an example, the MDX does not have an HID option. I will bet you odds that the many people who have asked the dealers "why not" will have a positive effect and the 2002 will have HID.

    I bought a 2000 RX AWD because I KNEW it was the best value for the money. I also knew that it had some shortcomings such as the lack of true AWD. Had not Lexus come out with Trac in 2001 I would probably be driving an MDX today and be looking for an aftermarket HID upgrade.

    I don't wish you to get the impression that a trade-up this often is the norm for me. I put 250,000 miles on each, a 78 Ford wagon, and a 75 Ford wagon.

    I very pleased recently when I found that Lexus.com now has a "channel" through which owners can comment or register complaints about the cars.

    So, I bought the Nav system because that was the only way I could get HID. The Nav system has definite flaws, but at the same time I have admitted that it has been helpful on several occassions.

    The RX's have the same basic Climate Control design flaws as did the 92 LS, and I am surprised that neither Lexus nor Denso has acted to correct these. But then Denso is the HVAC supplier for the majority of auto manufacturers and thus most of those exhibit the very same flaws.

    Lexus Vehicles are ALL, far and away, within their individual market segments, the best that can be had for the money thoughout this world.
  • inkyinky Member Posts: 370
    Lexus just sent the brochure. Anyone seen this thing. Seems like a waste to eliminate that nice Walnut for the stainless steel crap. Perhaps some will like it. Outside looks nice and perforated leather seats is nice touch.
    INKY
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    I understand that a few years ago Porsche hired some Japanese engineering/business consultants to help them get their manufacturing system back "on-track". It now appears that that effort was extremely successful.

    Is it now time for Lexus to hire Porsche consultants to tell them how to "option" their cars?

    A new 911 can be ordered with light or dark dark wood grain accents, aluminum accents, or "fiber" look accents. Almost everything about the interior of the car can be customized according to customer wishes and desires. For about $4,000, Porsche will even paint the exterior of the car any color a customer designates.

    My 92 burgandy LS400 with ivory/beige leather and wood accents is indeed a beautiful car, color combination, even today.

    The 2001 LS400 Dark Cherry is not available with the ivory/beige interior and if you chose another color in order to get beige then you are stuck with non-matching greytone wood grain accents.

    Only when Lexus can offer me a dark cherry UL LS with beige/ivory interior (anything not toward the "whiteness" of ecru) and light woodgrain accents will I even consider purchasing another LS.

    Until about 95 I, and many of my Lexus owning friends, believed that Lexus was fully attuned to the "fashion" desires of the american public, at least from the viewpoint of automotive "fashion".

    Today they seem to have lost their way. I suspect that they will not again pay much attention to the opinions of american buyers until the sales rate falls below their manufacturing capability.

    And that is a real shame. We WILL remember!
  • kimwipeskimwipes Member Posts: 21
    The car was brand new, 7 miles on it ;)
    I dealt with Steve, forgot his last name.

    Not much haggle. Went there on Sun, test drove, picked model/color and they offered a price.

    Monday 9am I called Lexus of Eugene, got them to offer their best price on same model/color after telling him I could get for the price I've found on the net. They agreed. As another post mentioned, the Eugene dealer is very competitive.

    Monday 10am, called back Kuni, let them know the deal I was offered in Eugene, and that I would be happy to stay in town if they lowered the price. They did, but by a few bucks (I guess they knew I wasn't going to drive 120 miles).

    So, I would say this was pretty easy. At first Kuni did not believe I was offered this price in Eugene, but after I told them "OK, I'll buy somewhere else", they accepted. I was firm and I was prepared to go elsewhere and he must have felt that. Another thing, they had just gotten that car the previous day, so they were going to get all the dealer holdback as profit, and I let them know that I knew this. So their argument of
    'We have to make a little something' was not flying.

    Hope that helps.
  • mooretorquemooretorque Member Posts: 241
    Jeffmust2, thought something was familiar about that ranting syntax. I agree, I think GT has returned.

    WWwest, true that the 911 can be customized to a fare-the-well but Porsche is very proud of their opportunities to do so; how much can leather covered knobs for the HVAC/stereo controls REALLY be worth?? That said, I tend to agree with you. It makes no real sense to restrict interior/exterior color combinations when there are only 3 interior colors for Lexus anyway.
  • adpcsadpcs Member Posts: 59
    I know this has been discussed before, but please help me pinpoint these..(2001 RX - 2WD)
    1. I have a rattle coming from the glovebox somewhere..what is the fix? It seems to be getting louder and louder. I emptied everything out of the glovebox and that side of the car.
    2. There is a clicking sound coming from the drivers side under the dash. Any ideas? Seems to be more prevalent while making turns, but I could be just imagining that.
    3. Also, when you put the key in, without the ignition on, there is some noise coming from under the hood, like something is drawing power...Ideas?

    Thanks.

    Ashish
  • rparis2rparis2 Member Posts: 46
    On my new RX I have no noise other than your comment #3. I asked the service manager about it and, he did not know although it was happening on the showroom car. He will investigate it and get back to me. Something is being activted.
  • mooretorquemooretorque Member Posts: 241
    Tarik, no disagreement from me re customization. And as far as value, things are worth precisely what someone is willing to pay - merely seems to me that Porsche likely has a healthy profit margin on their options. Nothing wrong with that either!!

    adpcs, glovebox rattle can be fixed by "felting" the box. seems to be a somewhat common Lex problem; my wife's 99 RX hasn't done it, but my new 01 GS430 did. clicking may be fuel injectors (they are faintly audible). is it rpm variable?? occur when driving or any time engine running? as far as third issue, a fair number of things power up when key inserted, so no clue.
  • plugnickleplugnickle Member Posts: 3
    Does anyone know how to turn off the daytime running lights?
  • mkdwyermkdwyer Member Posts: 4
    Just another data point - I called two Lexus dealers and both said that the chrome wheel option uses the same tires as the stock wheel. The option is for the wheels only - no tire upgrade. This seems to differ with what has been reported here as well as what is listed for this option on carsdirect.com "Tires: All Season w/Chrome Wheels, Heavy Duty tires with 225mm width, 16.0".
  • sybelesybele Member Posts: 42
    Just curious, how many RX owners have leather seat cracks?
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    If you look at Porsche dealer invoice price (and IF you tend to believe them!) of the various options versus the basic car margins then it appears that the margins on the options are lower, as a percentage, than the margins on the basic unadorned car.

    Your point is well made, most of the cars sold in the US (we are quite spoiled and aren't used to waiting for anything) are sold as "off-the-shelf", so both Porsche and Lexus have their basic pricing models correct.
  • newtosuvnewtosuv Member Posts: 9
    Sybele, etc. I noticed after 3 weeks of driving my RX 300 that the leather of the driver's seat was cracked. When I brought it in for the first service, the guy said that it was normal wear and tear. I disagreed with this and talked to the service manager. He said that this is not the first he has heard of this and that when I come in for the 5000 mile service, he will take care of it. He said that it is not wear and tear but a dye(?) problem.... not sure what that means.

    Has anyone else had this problem? Has anything helped?

    Thanks.
  • newtosuvnewtosuv Member Posts: 9
    One more question...I have only had my RX 300 for a month and the front plate is bent from going through the car wash. Is there a differnet kind of plate holder that will work better? Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

    Thanks.
  • pschiffepschiffe Member Posts: 373
    I attached a 6" x 12" sheet of aluminum to the back of the plate with stainless steel bolts to give it extra support - scrap from local DOT sign shop. Pretty weak front bracket design on a 40K vehicle!

    Pete
  • malhokcmalhokc Member Posts: 83
    This is a safety feature, it can not be turned off.
  • tariktarik Member Posts: 344
    Cracks in leather

    My last car, a Volvo 850, developed small cracks on the left hand side of the driver's seatback after 3 months. The dealer had those spots "re-dyed" at a local detailing place, and you couldn't tell the slightest bit! Why it happened, I don't know, but believe me, I'm PARTICULAR, and I have not been disappointed for the following three years.

    License plate

    Peter, you are dead on, it's simply cheap!
    Local car wash employees here offer to remove the front tag (as a precautionary measure) before they run the car throgh!!! What??? I am reluctant to merely reinforce the license plate with any backing, plastic or sheetmetal, as I am afraid it will be ripped out of the bumper INCLUDING the screws (what a thought...). It is difficult to find another bracket, since the RX's front bumper is pointed in the center, and a new holder would have to fit this shape. If anyone finds a suitable replacement, please let us know.

    Tarik
  • mlevinedcmlevinedc Member Posts: 45
    Though I did not order the Gold Package with my RX300, I did start to do some checking on eBay for parts and accessories. I found a fellow in California that sells 24K Gold Plated items for the RX. I bought the front grill "L" for 9.99 from him. He will plate your Grill L, Lexus name, RX300, antenna trim ring, and Rear "L" for 50.00 plus shipping. Email me privately for his eMail address.
  • rmorin2rmorin2 Member Posts: 110
    My '00 RX has also developed cracks on the left side of the driver's seat cushion. Hope to have it taken care of at the next service. We are also having problem diagnosing an annoying reverberating noise while the engine is idling and the transmission is in Drive or Reverse. The noise comes and goes but is very irritating, kind of a resonation not unlike an exhaust leak. Dealer has been unable to fix even after replacing the rear muffler. Am going to suggest replacing the catalytic converter since it seems the source is right under the front seat area of the vehicle. Any help would be appreciated from others who may have had similar problem. Thanks.
  • tariktarik Member Posts: 344
    Hi Randall, I have read your cry for help regarding the vibration numerous times, but did never comment on it for my lack of knowledge. Have you considered / suggested to the dealer to involve a factory service rep? Is the idle speed a bit too high and the car wants to pull? Can you tell a difference if you raise (or lower) the idle speed SLIGHTLY? Did the dealer comment on the possibility of a transmission-related issue? It could also be a loose or wobbling flywheel or harmonic damper. How about the (in)famous electro-hydraulic motor bearing, function failure or so...

    Although it seems to be an isolated case, I feel that the Lexus folks should have more interest in getting this flaw worked out...

    Having said that, I just remembered a fax answer, which I got back from Lexus in California, after inquiring about the fact that the '99 AWD RX WILL get stuck (it also happened to a former TH-poster) with only one wheel having zero traction (or getting stuck in snow and then spinning).

    I was basically told that Lex deemed their AWD completely worthy of a 40k vehicle, and that it really is a rare situation to begin with. Well, all that doesn't matter, if I happen to be the one in trouble!!! Plus, newer versions of the AWD RX have VSC, which should resolve the issue...

    Do not give up, go for your own relentless pursuit of getting what you deserve, and if you come by my area, let me know and we crawl under the car together and figure it out.

    Seriously mad Tarik
  • mikey00mikey00 Member Posts: 462
    My front plate was also bending at the car wash. Funny thing the car wash bending the plate was the free one provided by the dealer at service. I just found an old license plate and put it behind my bending one. It stiffens the plate enough to prevent future bending, it's the perfect size, and already has the holes in the right place.
  • mikey00mikey00 Member Posts: 462
    I have a 2000 RX300. When it is raining or when going through a car wash, if you turn your head to look at the rear corners of the sunroof glass, dripping water is visible. It drips into a channel above the head liner designed to route it out of the car near the rear wheels. The dealer checked it out and said it is normal and all Lexus sunroofs do it. I called the 800 Lexus # and they also said it was normal. Anyone else notice this?
  • gonzo7gonzo7 Member Posts: 259
    Posts 1432, 1433- Stop washing your RX.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    My 92 LS does the same thing, just be sure and clean out the drain lines in the back corners of the sunroof retraction "cavity" every few years. It takes a long vacuum line like those sold to reach under refrigerators.

    Otherwise after a few years enough dirt, debris will accumulate from the times when the sunroof is open to block the flow.
  • ahuiahui Member Posts: 15
    I have been reading posts of people complaining of cracking leather. Are those primarily with the Ivory or Black leather, or both? For those of you with the cracks, were you using the heaters alot? Shouldn't make a difference I guess.
  • mvs1mvs1 Member Posts: 462
    I had a similar problem when I first got the RX. I initially thought that it was caused by dark clothing dye(i.e. denim). I ended up using a cleaner and conditioned by Tanner's preserve, then a scotch guard. I'm sure a similar cleaner will do the same such as Lexol, recommended by others here although I myself have not used it. Haven't had the problem again, use the heated seats frequently, no smells etc.
  • spakcharspakchar Member Posts: 37
    The regulars on this forum will probably get a chuckle out of this, but I paralell parked my RX for the first yesterday after 6 mos of ownership. In the PHX area you rarely need to do it, sounds incredible I know. Anyway I pulled into a scottsdale bar/restaurant and the only available spot required this little used maneuver. I couldn't believe how easy it was to put the RX into that tight looking spot.
    I also played in a golf tourney this weekend and following sundays round we decided to go home with intention of at catching at least the last 30 minutes of the masters telecast. We covered the 150 miles in less than two hours averaging at least 80mph, mileage for the run was 21mpg--which I think was just fantastic.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Make sure you lock the doors:-)

    Phoenix Tops for Auto Theft

    Steve
    Host
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  • bcmksrtbcmksrt Member Posts: 1
    New to the Owner's Club and to the RX. Since we opted not to get the Premium Package on our '01RX300, but still wanted a CD changer, our salesman dissuaded us from spending $1400 or whatever on a brand-new, dealer-installed one. He told us that he'd seen used Lexus Six-CD Changers on the Web for $200-400.

    On lexuspartsmall.com, they do offer the CD changer for $699.55 and about $140 total for the glove box and instrument panels. Does anyone know of another site where I might find what I'm looking for? This doesn't quite match the salesman's optimistic predictions!
  • 00rxguy100rxguy1 Member Posts: 38
    I've been reading posts regarding the leather cracking. What exactly happens when someone says the leather is "cracking". i have a 2000 rx and in the front driver and passenger side the leather is starting to wrinkle. I thought that it was mainly caused by sliding in and out of the seats. or denim, as said the previous posts. But is that what you guys mean when you say it is cracking. Is this normal? i use to think it was, but after reading this i think not. i only drive my rx on the weekends so it is never really exposed to the sun. It has been garaged all the time.What i see in the seats of my RX is lines i used the Lexus leather cleaner and it takes all the dirt away but the cracks are still there. So, what is leather cracks and is it normal.
  • sybelesybele Member Posts: 42
    The wrinkling of the leather is from normal everyday use. However, the leather should not crack, particularly when you regularly apply Lexol. Three friends of mine, owners of RX's, have the same problem. On my next visit to the dealer, I am planning to get to the bottom of this.
  • trmgatrmga Member Posts: 50
    In response to tariks message I am also having problems with my front license plate coming loose after going through a very gentle car wash. I called the dealer this afternoon and asked if he had a fix for the way the license plate is mounted on the front bumper. He asked if the clips were in place. I said there were no clips, just two holes through the vinyl front bumper and the screws didn't seem to go into anyting metal--just the vinyl. He said to come by and get the metal clips that are supposed to be on the bumper. I'll go by this weekend and see if these clips do anything to give additional support to the license plate. I suspect that a KIA or Hyndai (sp?) probably has a better mounting arrangement than the RX 300. Do others of you have metal clips that your front license plates are secured to?
  • rmorin2rmorin2 Member Posts: 110
    Can I expect my dealer to replace or repair the cracks in my driver's seat when my car is in for the next service? Also, I have not been able to get the noise fixed after 5 trips and involving a factory engineer. He said that the noise was "characteristic" of this model. Please, anyone out there that has had success in getting a similar problem resolved, let me know. Feel free to email me privately by accessing my profile.

    The noise comes and goes and can best be described as a reverberating resonance that can only be heard when the vehicle is idling, in gear, and completely stopped. Dealer has checked the vibration damper in the engine mounts and also replaced the rear muffler but noise is still there. It seemed to be worse and more frequent when the temperature was lower, but even now with temps in the 60s and 70s, it can still be heard at times.

    Car is due for 22.5K check up and I will again ask that they try to fix it. I am also having the typical glove box door rattle in addition to the cracked driver's seat. Hopefully these can be fixed the first time.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I've been looking at video clips here tonight. There's one of a road test of the RX300.

    Steve
    Host
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  • gonzo7gonzo7 Member Posts: 259
    spakchar/Steve-
    Don't worry too much about about locking the doors. The RX300 isn't that popular in Mexico.
    (that's where the stolen cars end up)

    Now if you had a Chevy truck...
  • malhokcmalhokc Member Posts: 83
    I've had my RX for nearly about an year now. I regularly use LEXOL conditioner on the seats and have not experienced such wrinkling and/or cracking problems. I highly recommend this product or other equivalent product to avoid such problems.
  • cassiricassiri Member Posts: 40
    I am not alone I guess. I too have heard the noise. I have a '99 RX300 AWD with 30k miles. The noise was really frequent when we first bought it (about every other stop light). I couldn't of course duplicate it for the dealer or even get anyone else to hear it. The noise I heard was coming from under the hood and could be felt through the brake pedal somewhat. It has since gone away, but I speculated that it might be those electronic vibration canceling engine mounts overreacting. Just a theory.
  • gpvsgpvs Member Posts: 214
    I've noticed that i have not read any of Tony's comments lately, do you guys know what happened? I enjoy reading his comments and his knowledge of SUV's.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Last time I saw him was over in Aztek a couple of days ago:

    tonychrys "Pontiac Aztek - III" Apr 10, 2001 1:46pm

    Maybe he decided he couldn't top that one :-)

    Steve
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  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    He came, he saw, he posted.

    We lost 'em.

    While working to fix some problems the database was corrupted. Unfortunately we were only able to recover data up to this morning - meaning that all posts since early today are missing. Several people are pulling all-nighters; we'll find out in the morning if they can recover the missing messages. Apologies.

    Steve
    Host
    Vans, SUVs and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
  • app1eqfapp1eqf Member Posts: 9
    After months and months of thinking, I finally tinted my front windows. I looked around different shops, and finally found one where they do light mirror tint, bronze color. It's not a 100% match to your rear windows, but I would say 85-90% match. It looks great.
  • clee4clee4 Member Posts: 103
    NAV System revisited for tedcohn.
    The RX300 DVD based NAV system will not play DVD movies. The computer unit is also under the floor of the rear cargo area.
    There is a manual supplied by Lexus when you pick up your RX, just for NAV equipped vehicles.
    If your dealer does not show you how to work the system, you will be able to tell Lexus of their short fall when you fill out the buyer comment card that Lexus will send to you.They will not tell you everything, cause there are some hidden aspects of the system they do not want you to mess with. I found them by reading the shop manuals. Research back some 400-500 post and you will see some discussions between myself and the notorious tonychry. Sorry tony, I had to throw that in there. The topic has been very dull lately.
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