Lexus RX 300

jeffmust2 · October 2001

This board is already way past those concerns.

Willard - how do you think that Prius would do, same trip, same time of day?

drskico · October 2001

I bet your mileage would have been less if it was a RED 911 coupe.

wwest · October 2001

Seattle to Portland, Saturday morning, not same time of day. I think the Prius mileage was hurt by the fact the system kept charging the batteries even though as far as I could see they weren't used very much. What did it do with the over-charge? Dunno.

Ran both legs mostly on cruse control, mostly same speed settings. Prius clearly had to rely on IC engine at those speeds, doubt if battery being there was any help at all.

Kimwipes; With regards to RX300 MPG, could the difference be becuase some are driving FWD RX300s while the rest of us are driving AWD? FWD will get slightly better MPG.

At this very moment my 2001 AWD RX shows 16.9MPG since last fillup, 98 miles, and 18.6 average. Other than current MPG being predominatly city, I don't have any idea about the city/hiway ratio for the overall average. I do have a wider tread on my RX than OEM and the increased roadbed friction from those would also result in lower MPG.

wwest · October 2001

Yes, but my time in transit would have been longer due to the time it would taken the trooper to fill out tickets.

rxcure · October 2001

In 1988 I took a bike trip from Seattle to Portland. I averaged 80 miles per day, and consumed approximately 2 gallons of water and juice per day, hence 40 miles per gallon. The bike was blue. RX would have made the journey faster, though bike would have performed better in dry conditions off-road. In wet or snowy conditions off-road the RX would undoubtedly have performed better than the bike. Rather than extend the 100 or so posts back on forth on RX AWD set-up, can't anyone find a reasonably independent group such as Car & Driver that has reviewed this?

sathomasga · October 2001

Kim,

If you have the AWD version, that could make a difference in gas mileage. FWD version not only has to power half as many wheels, but it's lighter as well.

FWIW, although I miss the manual transmission of my Land Rover Discovery, I find that I actually drive much more conservatively with an automatic. That's contrary to what others have said. The only explanation I can think of is that when driving in 4th (or heavens, 3rd) gear, that stick was just sitting there begging me to get it into 5th. With the Lexus, I have no idea what gear it's in.

Conservative driving, plus having a 4-year-old that long ago learned how to read speed limit signs and speedometers, does make a MPG difference.

Stephen

wwest · October 2001

Seems to be very knowledgeable overall, touts the ML320, but not so much that it over-shadows other truths.

I was hoping TC would get an intelligible response from Lexus Corporate, and I have made an overture to a local service advisor, but so far no luck.

Car & Driver? Lexus buys their lunch!

tc_i_am · October 2001

I did receive the response from Lexus, and the MY01+ Rexs are indeed full-time 4WD with a 50/50 split. I know that's not the independent source you wanted, but thought you'd like to know. I've driven FWD cars all my life and I know what front-end torque steer feels like, my 4WD RX definitely has a neutral, stable feel to handling.

I won't bother posting the full response since Mr. Bombastic is in full swing here. It's a free country and he can ramble on about anything. Unfortunately the side-effect might be the demise of this forum, the same way he helped destroy the SC430 forum on Town Hall.

Take care.

rxcure · October 2001

4x4abc is maintained by an ML320 aficionado who has even published a book on the topic. While I don't question that he is trying to provide some objective advice, we've all seen that people who have a strong affinity for a particular vehicle such as the ML have difficulty keeping their bias in check. Every published source I've seen on RX has the same info that TC cites from Lexus -- namely a 50-50 split. Let's think about this for a moment. While I'm a natural skeptic, I find it highly unlikely that Lexus would put its carefully nurtured reputation (and deep pockets!) on the line by distributing fraudulent information about their product. If someone has published information from a reputable source that contradicts Lexus, I'd love to hear it and would encourage you to file suit. Meanwhile, the extended discussions of technical details and speculation that Lexus is lying don't strike me as particularly credible.

drew_ · October 2001

Actually, 4x4abc.com is owned by a professional (expert) off-roader and photographer, Harold P. He has written books on both the M-class (but he doesn't own one) and the Jeep Grand Cherokee, and is so well known in the off-road and 4WD world that even vehicle manufacturers consult with him. Harold also owns The Adventures Company, which is an off-roading tour company (they teach you how to drive off-road + sideseeing at the same time).

http://4x4abc.com/4WD101/index.html

Drew
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wwest · October 2001

I have never seen ANY information, spoken, written, or published by Lexus that in any way could be called fraudulent regarding the actual workings, static or dynamic, of the Lexus RX300 AWD system.

If it were considered a fraudulent act to not state the true nature of the beast (why does that statement remind me of a certain USAF recruiter) then we would have something to act upon.

All you will hear from Lexus is that the RX300 AWD system is "full-time 4WD", or "permanent 4WD" (substitute AWD for 4WD if you want to). And I for one do not disagree with those statements.

The problem is that those statements alone do not go for enough to describe the RX300 AWD systems, and I doubt that you will ever find anyone from Lexus who will willingly enter into a discussion regarding the operation of the RX300 AWD system operating under the highly dynamic roadbed conditions owners encounter throughout the year.

mickey7777 · October 2001

Bought our new 2001 RX yesterday. Car is great except the driver and passenger seat are extremely uncomfortable! My husband and I are 5'2" and 5'7" respectively. ANY IDEAS? Please help.

mickey7777 · October 2001

My husband is 5'7" and I am 5'2". Short but not so smart tonight. Please help anyway.

wwest · October 2001

What car seats do you normally sit upon?
In comparison to a Camaro the Rx seats are very comfortable, but in comparison to an LS430?

jeffmust2 · October 2001

Mickey -

Remember, if all else fails, Read-Your-Manual.

At 5'2" and 5'7", my 2001 RX manual indicates that both of you should be comfortable because you are both within the RX height specifications for ownership.

However, the manual does suggest using both front seats instead of just one. I know that people of a certain height enjoy snuggling-up and it is getting close to winter now.

I assume that during the test drive that neither one of you were allowed INSIDE the vehicle? Boy, that's one strict Lexus dealer.

If all else fails, you'll both have to try the back seat. My Giant Schnauzer swears by it.

mooretorque · October 2001

Kimwipes, it could be worse......my wife's 99 AWD shows 17.2 for 37K mostly city miles. Oh, well.....if we had the roof rack it would be worse.

Mickey7777, I'm at a loss to explain seating comofort issue, as I'm 5'9" and SHE WHO KNOWS AND MUST BE OBEYED is 5' (5'1" if she really stretches) and neither of us have any complaints. I'll grant you that they aren't on par with, say, the Recaros in ww's Porsche.....but on the rare long trip, the RX runs out of gas long before I (or she) run(s) out of.....uh......rump. Did the RX you test drove feel the same??

drew_ · October 2001

Congrats on your new RX300. Perhaps if you provide a bit more detailed information as to the circumstances and areas where and when you and your husband are uncomfortable in the vehicle's seats, the other RX owners in here will have a few suggestions on seat positioning that may help to increase your comfort?

Drew
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kimwipes · October 2001

I do have AWD and according to some of the post that might explain it, thanks.

Regarding seats, we find them very comfy, but then our previous car was a Corolla.

wwest, what MPG would I have expected from the Corolla on a rainy day on the PDX/SEA trip?

psri · October 2001

Mickey:
I don't know if you are referring to the same issue but I also felt that the Captain Seats of the RX somewhat awkward and uncomfortable. Being used to the typical sedan (Infiniti I30) center armrest, I found the captain seats a little constraining and with the left and right arm-rests at different heights, kind of unnatural.
Excepting on long trips I find myself keeping the right arm-rest upright mostly; I had to try out several different seat positions/reclinations/head-rest/lumbar settings before I could settle down to using one setting. The seat memory feature helps a great deal in trying out incremental changes.
I would like to hear other users' comment/experience on this.

mickey7777 · October 2001

Thanks for the reply posts, especially 3220and 3221. The reason we mentioned our heights is that I heard that some seats a designed for taller people. My son has a 1999 RX300 and we drove it for a day and it seemed O.K. I did not know if there was a seat change. It seems that the seat is hitting hard in the middle of the back causing a sore back. I have the lumbar support In so it is not hitting, which seems more confortable for me.

mvs1 · October 2001

Now that you mentioned it they aren't as comfortable as my 94'ES300. I'm 6' tall the adjustment I play with the most is the lumbar, can't seem to get it right. And I actually use the passenger arm rest when I'm driving alone, just didn't think about how awkward that is until these posts. I definetly need to trade in this vehicle : )

wwest · October 2001

Recently you submitted a question to the Lexus Customer Satisfaction Department.

Subject:
Fw: Trac

Dear Mr. West:

Thank you for contacting Lexus Customer Satisfaction.

In a limited traction situation, the viscous coupling is "hardware-controlled" power delivery, which helps get power to the end of the car with more traction.

The four-wheel TRAC system is "software controlled" power delivery. In limited traction situations, this helps get power to the individual wheel(s) of the vehicle.

The two systems work together to provide increased traction control.

Your Question:
----- Original Message -----
From: Willard West
To: Customer_Satisfaction_Inquiries@lexus.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 12:32 PM
Subject: Trac

I have a 2001 RX300.

My understanding of the Trac system is that it will automatically brake any wheel or wheels which lose traction and begin to turn faster. It is also my understanding of the AWD system that the nominal torque distribution front to rear is 70/30 and if the front wheels lose traction the differential turning rate causes the fluid in the viscous clutch coupling to "stiffen" which increases the torque coupling to the rear wheels. I understand that the torque distribution can be as high as 51/49 front to rear once the viscosity of the fluid is increased through this circumstance..

My question is this: If the Trac is used to "quickly" prevent wheelspin, how is it possible for the viscous clutch (with a much longer "time constant") to "sense" differential turning rates long enough for it to have any positive affects?

Willard West

If your issue remains unresolved, please update this question here.

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If you have any further concerns, you can also reach the Lexus Customer Satisfaction Department at 1-800-255-3987, Monday through Friday, 6:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., Pacific Time. Sincerely, Jessica Caldwell Customer Satisfaction Representative

wwest · October 2001

Recently you submitted a question to the Lexus Customer Satisfaction Department.

Subject:
RX300

At 07/18/2001 07:36 AM we wrote -

Dear Mr. West:

I am following up with you regarding your inquiries on viscous coupling and the normal distribution ratio. The definition of "viscous coupling" found in the Lexus web site is a dictionary definition and does not necessarily mean this is how our system operates.

The normal torque distribution ratio front to rear generally has a ratio of 50/50, but there are factors that can affect this ratio (ex. going around a corner, accelerating up a hill, etc.)

If you need any further assistance, you can also reach the Lexus Customer Satisfaction Department at 1-800-255-3987, Monday through Friday, 6:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., Pacific Time.

Your Question:
Dear sirs,

At Lexus.com under RX "specifications", "viscous coupling" "window", you state that the coupling compensates for slippage right to left and front to rear, is this statement actually correct? I can see how the viscous coupling "clutch" can "tighten" the coupling coefficient between the directly driven front axle and the rear axle (driven only through the viscous clutch) when there is a differential turning rate between the two but I don't see how this can happen left to right with the intervention of the VSC or Trac system.

Is your statement on viscous coupling specifications correct, or am I wrong?

Also, I'm quite sure that my salesman, when I bought the 2000 RX ( I have since upgraded to the 2001 RX for the added benefits of VSC, Trac, and HID), told me that the normal torque distribution ratio front to rear was something in the range of 70/30. I have since seen many statements in various automotive media stating a ratio of 50/50. As I understand the setup the torque coupling can increase under front/rear slippage conditions to very close to 50/50, but never actually greater than 51/49 front to rear.

Which is correct?

Thanks for your time,

Willard West

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If you have any further concerns, you can also reach the Lexus Customer Satisfaction Department at 1-800-255-3987, Monday through Friday, 6:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., Pacific Time. Sincerely, Kevin Saylan Customer Satisfaction Representative

wwest · October 2001

TC:

Lexus supplied my 2000 GS300 with yellow fog lights and I have just discovered via a post on clublexus that this is unique to the GS with HID.

My immediate response was why?

But after thinking it over I came to the realization that the GS with HID is equipped with yellow fog lights to increase the driver's vision, forward contrast, in foggy conditions.

HID light output is of a much wider spectrum, whiter, than is normal automotive lighting. So Lexus equips its GS with HID with yellow fogs to partially compensate and thus give the driver more forward vision, more contrast, in foggy conditions.

wwest · October 2001

The only time torque steering is really noticeable in my 2001 RX AWD is when entering a hard, tight, turn to the right while having a moderate to high level of power applied.

In that circumstance it appears to want to go further to the right than I have the steering wheel.

mooretorque · October 2001

I can induce a slight amount of torque steer also in low traction circumstances, even in a straight line, if I really nail it.

(ww, lest you think me guilty of plagiarism, I had not read your posts here on Edmunds till after I had posted my note over on CL!! I always attribute my sources, just like I was taught many moons ago.)

And now I have to go look at the fogs on my GS.....thought they were white but haven't had them on, either.

fedlawman · October 2001

Your quest is interesting in that there does not seem to be an industry standard for defining AWD systems. I think every manufacturer is free to call their system whatever they want and it is an exercise in futility to actually determine the nuances (prestidigitation?) of how it works.

Now that there is no doubt our summer is gone for good, I am looking forward to putting my AWD system to the wet pavement!

BTW, in a nutshell, the response you received states that the viscous coupling (hardware) distributes power from front to rear and the TRAC system (software) distributes power from left to right. It seems like a much more complicated way of doing the same thing that GM's Versatrak system does, except that Versatrak doesn't waste torque (and friction) by sending 50% of the power to the rear during normal driving. Do you have any knowledge of the difference between these two systems?

wwest · October 2001

The only thing I know about GM is just enough to be able to openly disparage the FWD cadillac. Regardless of what Lexus says about the RX having 50/50 torque distribution, it doesn't, except maybe when the viscous clutch is completely "firmed up".

You noticed their, Lexus' disclaimer, escape clause, I'm sure.

Like you, I expect to rely on my AWD to get me through the winter months safely. But I have no intention of going forward into winter blindly, if I discover the RX will not handle it to my satisfaction, it will be off to BMW, as much as I hate the very thought.

stever · October 2001

Styling: Does function trump style?

explrsport · October 2001

"if I discover the RX will not handle it to my satisfaction, it will be off to BMW"

I'm sure the people on the X5 board are screaming in terror at the very thought....

I hope the BMW customer service folks can diagram a viscous clutch for you.

fasterthanu · October 2001

Hey people, I just got my RX two months ago (White Gold Crystal) with the beige interior. I actually find the seats very comfortable but yes, you have to find that perfect adjustment, and then set the memory for it. The lumbar support is great - has a wide degree of support settings. I set it on max - last time I drove for 3 hours it was very comnfortable. Enough so that I didn't even think about the lumbar.

My seats, however, are showing signs of dirt. They are of the ivory leather variety. Can you share your experiences with leather care - make product recommendations? I've been leaning towards getting Zaino's cleaner/conditioner, but heard Hide Food is good. I'd like to keep the leather supple and don't want the shiny look.

Thanks guys

drew_ · October 2001

You may want to read the Leather seat maintenance discussion topic. I think you'll find everything that you need in there.

I hope this helps!

Drew
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fasterthanu · October 2001

Thanks but I checked that forum and there was little written specifically about leather in the RX or Lexii in general. Having looked at competing SUVs (ML, MDX, X5), I found the RX's leather more soft, supple and delicate than the others. So I wondered if anyone else in this forum might be able to share their experiences with their RXs.

I sure love this SUV - it rides amazingly smooth and quiet. And it attracts women's attention like a Ferrari 360 Modena (no, I am not exaggerating!) :-)

BTW who is this Willard West character? I've read the back posts and this guy strikes me as highly anal-retentive, and living an overall miserable life. I can't think of anything dumber than obsessing over something like how the RX's AWD works. I mean, Road and Track (I think it was R&T .. I read so many publications ...) tested it against every luxury SUV, and the RX made it out from over the rocks, gullies and streams okay. Not in stellar fashion as the truck-based SUVs did, but it got through courses as an SUV should without ever needing a tow. In fact, it ranked #3 out of 7 or 8. In comparison, I think Willard will survive the winter snow, unless his abnormal fear of AWD not working compels him to stay at home. Maybe he can hibernate or something.

I say just enjoy the RX dude ...

wwest · October 2001

Yes, you're perfectly right, rather than being obsessed with good wintertime traction for personal safety I could be a lot more creative if I concentrated my efforts on keeping the Lexus seat leather supple and delicate.

BTW, I have used Lexus products, cleaner and conditioner, purchased at the Lexus parts department, beginning with my first Lexus purchased almost ten years ago, a new 92 LS, and while the seats don't really look new anymore, they are still "supple and delicate".

Maybe on some counts Lexus does know what it's doing.

fasterthanu · October 2001

Willard

You're such a punk, but I know you find that to be a compliment. Maybe you should get the X5 and harass the Bimmer forums. They'd rip you a new poopchute. But then you'd be twice as anal.

When you bought your LS, which was rear wheel drive (and had Trac, I suppose), did you worry about snow conditions? Hey, remember those commericals where they drove an LS across an ice pond and it was able to stop on a dime? Did you try that yourself and find it not to be true? Did you sue Lexus for it? Did the ice water affect your brain?

Why did you buy your RX anyway? If goodies and leather are not your priority, and AWD is, seems to me you had plenty of other options that would've made you happy. Considering all your gripes about the RX, the options you had available, and your lack of pre-purchase research, looks like you brought all this anguish and trauma on yourself. What a sad case.

jeffmust2 · October 2001

Fasterthanu - sure, you can go to Lexus to get leather maintenance products, like Willard, and pay 2-3 times what they're worth.

Or you can go to Pep Boys or KMart and get Lexol's products, the separate cleaner and conditioner and their VinylTex (?) for the non-leather items, which do just as good a job.

Hey, it's just good quality cowhide in a Japanese SUV - not Connolley matched hides in a Roller!

Hey Willard - you must live next door to that Lexus dealer since a) you found it without a trustworthy Nav and, b)it wasn't snowy or icy out so you managed to keep your RX on the road with the rubber things pointed down.

wwest · October 2001

Has NOTHING to with STOPPING on a slippery surface, the commercial you are mis-remembering had to do with its ability to get up and go on that icy lake surface.

I have found that the nicest thing about Trac on my 92 Lexus is that button on the dash that allows me to TURN IT OFF.

I think you might have a basic misunderstanding about Trac on an LS vs an RX. Most of us of my age have gotten there because we learned long ago to accelerate sl-o--w---l---y on a slippery surface. When you operate a vehicle properly to begin with in these conditions you have no need of a computer to apply BOTH REAR BRAKES SIMULTANEOUSLY, and certainly we have learned not to persist with a floored throttle such that now the computer has to dethrottle the engine because the idiot behind the steering wheel doesn't have enough sense to do so.

The Trac on the RX is there for a completely different reason, to eliminate the need, nay REQUIREMENT, for mechanical Limited Slip Differentials. The RX300, With three OPEN differentials, and absent the presence of LSD or Trac, could not move out of its own way with just one wheel slipping.

drew_ · October 2001

Let's get back to discussing the RX300, and not other Town Hall participants. Everyone's opinions are equally valued here.

Thanks,

Drew
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drew_ · October 2001

You may be happy to know that the advice in the Leather maintnance topic applies to all leather seats, so it doesn't matter if it's from a Jaguar or a Lexus :-). I have good luck with Lexol's products myself, but others have also highly recommended Connolly Hide Food.

Good luck and please keep us updated as to what you personally find the best.

izabelajohn · October 2001

Willard,
I don't know how long you have had your RX and why you bought it, but I can assure you that my AWD RX (MY2000, so it doesn't have trac) does very well in slippery conditions and can definitely move out of its way.
This past winter I was caught in a really bad snow storm. I was going up a hill and the car before me stopped so I had to stop as well. I forget what make the car before me was but it took him about 10-15 minutes of slipping and sliding around before he could start moving up that hill again. I was just standing behind him and praying that he doesn't slide back as I didn't have room to move. Well, once he finally got out of my way, my RX had no trouble whatsoever starting to move and accelerating up the hill on extremely slippery surface.
I don't care if you call it AWD, 4WD or if in theory it cannot possibly work. I assure you it works! (I hope though that you will buy that BMW and move to the other boards to harass other people).

fasterthanu · October 2001

Thanks for the advice. I didn't want to get the Lexus brand stuff because I don't know who they're rebranding from - if it's Armorall cleaner then I'm screwed :-)

The leather ain't Connolly but I still want to preserve it in the best manner possible. I'll look into Lexol and see ...

Drew, I'll withhold further comments on Willard. But after reading through past posts, I believe he earned some payback.

wwest · October 2001

via "forcing" you to read what I have written?

Look, I admit that I am fully guilty of not doing enough personal research before purchasing my first RX300. I cannot say that I really had any adverse conditions under which to try the AWD ability of the MY2000. It was when Lexus themselves pointed out to me that my 2000 RX300 had a major flaw that I really stood up and started to pay attention.

Lexus announced that the 2001 model had TRAC as standard and did a very good, I might even say super, job of explaining why the addition of Trac made the 2001 AWD system so much better than my 2000 RX.

Previous to the RX I had owned two Jeeps, an 85, purchased used in 87, and a new 92, both with full-time and part-time AWD. I didn't understand why, but I discovered that oftentimes I had to use the part-time mode of the Jeep 4WD to get me out of "sticky" situations. To my knowledge I believe I never used the Jeep low range gearing even once.

But now having looked into the workings of the RX300 AWD, I see why the Jeep's "full-time" AWD didn't always get the job done. The Jeep's "full-time" 4WD has the very same short-coming as the RX300, absent an LSD or Trac, one wheel slipping and it doesn't go.

So I got very curious about AWD in general and started looking into it in more depth. I also have a personal bias, which I have readily acknowledged, against front wheel drive vehicles.

So I guess I would say that my writings here are not for those of you who have already made your purchase decision, but for anyone out there who might not take enough of their own time to look into the short-comings of the RX300 AWD, or like me, place too much trust in the Lexus name. But they might have the time to read about it here and thus be able to make a more informed purchase decision when the time comes.

tc_i_am · October 2001

You've made all your loud noises based on a MY2000 shop manual and a flawed personal experiment.

wwest · October 2001

HOW?

stever · October 2001

You guys wanna take it to Usenet?

Steve
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wwest · October 2001

host:

Sorry if I'm being out of line or disrespectful, but I am sincerely curious why TC thinks my personal experiment was flawed.

And, by the way, just what is usenet?

stever · October 2001

I'm not sure that anyone else wants to see this particular horse beat any more around here.

Usenet is the "original" internet bulletin board (although it actually predates the internet). Imagine a Town Hall covering every conceivable subject with total anarchy, and you'd be about there. Your ISP can tell you how to access it.

Steve
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jeffmust2 · October 2001

Steve,

I know it's vital for Political Correctness to prevade Town Hall, but when a poster writes on a Lexus board...

"or like me, place too much trust in the Lexus name..."

After he's purchased three (3) Lexus vehicles over a ten-year period, isn't it reasonable to assume there's a few resistors that ain't wired right?

Come on, you must recognize "Net Baiting" when you read it.

stever · October 2001

If you think someone is "troll" posting, the best course is to let it slide and move on to the next message. I'm not sure what political correctness has to do with pointing out that a thread that has been warmly debated with no clear end (or new info) in sight may be in need of a rest. If you want to enlighten me, please blast me an email. Thanks. Now back to the Lexus RX300 please.

Steve
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wwest · October 2001

Silent majority vs Vocal minority...

I wonder...

I notice over at Clublexus that they have a counter which shows the number of "reads" of each "post" thread.

Has Edmunds thought about how much value this type of input could be to knowing how threads and subjects are really valued. Not just for myself, but otherwise how do you know for certain that you're not allowing a "vocal minority" to control your board.

Most of the inputs you seem to be reacting too are of the type "no more bad news, kill the messenger".

I don't especially care for rebuttal posts which only serve to impune my person and do nothing to address the issue at hand, but I can easily overlook those in favor of posters who have valued and valuable information on the issues.

An instance of this is TC's "flawed experiment" statement, for which were I you I would hold him accountable and ask him to describe how he felt the experiment was flawed otherwise there may be a few, or not so few, who take the statement to heart.

I'm not saying TC's statement doesn't have foundation, but if it does why should he resist stating it?

In the last few years I have found myself confounded by the fact that from my viewpoint we no longer have a two party political system in the US. The religious right (silent majority?) is so dominating the republican party that no centralist dare speak up.

Lexus RX 300

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