Lexus RX 300

zielinw · February 2002

The fear of sludging is affecting all of us RX300 owners. The alt.autos.toyota newsgroup has a lot of info about this issue, with comments from several "Toyota" techs. They feel that the sludging problem can be caused by both over-heating, and under-heating. In fact short drives in cold climates cause a lot of the sludge issues.

Since none of this helps us owners, I have one suggestion that does not required pulling the heads. Just stick a long rod into the oil dipstick tube that will reach to the bottom of the oil pan. Touch the bottom of the pan, and pull it out. If there is sludge on the end of the stick, one would have a problem.

On my other cars I could just look into the oil filler cap to see the inside of the valve case, but the Lexus RX300 has some type of a device that blocks the view of the valve area by looking down the oil cap hole.

dardson1 · February 2002

I have an 01 ES300 and had an 01 Sienna (had.... I just couldn't do a minivan for more than 16 months) so I have followed this issue many months. Lexus (Toyota) has pushed this fairly small engine to the limit. Very smooth, plenty powerful, and amazingly quiet, this engine ought to be treated to an oil change every 3-4k miles or 3 times a year if you drive less. Best I can tell, the only people having problems are pushing the oil changes to the max in the book (they really ought to change that 7500 oil change). I can't imagine buying a car this fine and then trying to save money on oil changes. After all, if you make an appointment you get a car to drive while they change the oil. CHANGE YOUR OIL OFTEN AND LET THE DEALER DO IT.

zielinw · February 2002

So, since the only sure method of insuring the Lexus warranty is honored is to have the oil & filters changed by Lexus. What are the going rates for giving Lexus the honor of changing our oil?

Now, I know that Jiffy Lube does not include free cookies, but they do have free (but sometimes old) coffee. So let's give Lexus a $2 credit for the extra food. Since I have never had the honor of a Lexus oil change, I don't have the slightest idea what it may cost, but I have heard rumours of $30 to $60, which seems a little high even for us deep-pocketed folks.

danrx · February 2002

What the heck is going on here, I go away for 3 days, I come back and my wonderful truck is being dragged in the mud with all this negative talk. Sounds like my resale value has plumetted in 3 days. Back to nice RX talk, please.

"They feel that the sludging problem can be caused by both over-heating, and under-heating. In fact short drives in cold climates cause a lot of the sludge issues."

This brings the question of "Warm-up or no Warm" up to my mind.

Should we be warming up our cars in these cold mornings. I have heard negative things about "idleing" and warming up. Are those old wives tales or old evil wives tales for some on this forum ???.

With regards to Oil Changes, does anyone know if Lexus accepts Oil Changes @ Toyota service acceptable with regards to the Sludge Argument or will they only accept Lexus service for re-imbursement cases ? No Sludge problems here, yet, gulp !!!

outrun · February 2002

Since Lexus IS Toyota, I don't see how they could refuse service done at one of their company-owned facilities.

I will NOT be going to Lexus for service from now on. Lexus of Norwood (MA) charges, I believe, over $200 for the 10k service. Now, looking in the little Lexus service book, the only service that should be performed is an oil change, tire rotation, and test drive.

$200+ for THAT? Puleeze. I just called up Toyota and they want $23.95 for oil change, and $15 for tire rotation.

The answer is simple.

-Craig

mikey00 · February 2002

Did anyone see anything in print yet that says the dealer must perform oil changes for the warranty to be honered? I stopped using the dealer a while ago because the quality of the work did not justify the high price. In fact the dealer is the only place where I had a service problem, the quick lubes have been fine. I had to return twice after an oil change for a leak in the filter area. I also noticed last time they rotated the tires they only moved them front to back (no chris cross) as in the manual.
I found a Mr. Good Lube where I pay less than $20. (after discounts} for oil and filter plus check and top off everything else. They use Castrol GTX 5W30 oil from the small plastic bottles, not bulk oil like the dealer and everyone else. Somehow I have trouble trusting bulk oil. I would switch to synthetic if Toyota would state that it was recommended due to recent sludge reports, but Toyota still recommends natural petroleum based oil with a warning not to switch back if you do use synthetic.
Of course I always check the work at both the dealer and quick lubes by marking the filter and writing done the wheel weight values at each wheel to check if/how tires were rotated.

outrun · February 2002

Mikey,

That's a good idea about marking the oil filter and keeping track of which tires are where on the vehicle before bringing it in. These $2/hour techies show very little interest in doing things properly. I think I'll do the same before bringing in the RX tomorrow evening.

This is going to be my first trip to the local Toyota dealership (only 3 miles from my house). If their service is good (doesn't even have to be "great"), I'm going to bringing the RX there from now on.

-Craig

gsenthil · February 2002

See if you have any Toyota Express service stations. I went to one near mine (less than a mile from my home) and labor for oil change was $10 and another $10 for tire rotation. I forgot to tell them the order of tire rotation and saw the service guy just swapping the front and rear tires (no criss cross nor using the spare). Make sure you tell them in advance the order you want your tires rotated. And instead of reading the magazines there, I watched them working on my RX through the glass window.

Senthil

ctk1 · February 2002

Oil change at 5000 miles at no cost, but when I bring the RX home and check the oil dip stick, it over fill. I drain it out about 1 Qt of oil in order to low the oil level at high mark (car is parking in leveling garage).
I will not bring it in for 10,000 miles service.I will do it by myself with Mobil 1 synthetic oil 5w-30 and the Lexus OEM filter. Total cost 25 bucks without my 15 min labor.

outrun · February 2002

I didn't check the dipstick afterwards. Maybe we've been driving with an over-filled crankcase for 5000 miles. OOps. On the brighter side, maybe there wasn't any room for the sludge to build up. Hey, there's a solution!

Should I tell Toyota to include the spare tire in the rotation? I don't even know if Lexus did that at the 5000 checkup. We now have 9985 on odometer. Would it be "bad" to start including the spare in the rotation at this point? My wife primarily drives the car, so the tires are just about new in appearance.

ctk1, have you changed the oil yet on your RX? I've heard it's a pain to get to the oil filter. Mobil 1 at BJ's or Costo is pretty cheap, so if it's not too much of a pain, I could do it myself as well (except for maybe in the dead of winter).

Are jack stands necessary?

-Craig

dardson1 · February 2002

that people buy these high dollar cars and then worry about an extra $20 for an oil change 2 or 3 times a year. It's cheap insurance to know the oil has been changed by the dealer and it's on file. While I agree it's too bad and ought not be something any of us have to worry about, there's just too much "smoke"(pardon the pun) for there to be no fire. At this point I won't consider anything but letting Lexus do my oil changes with whatever they care to use, be it syn, dino, or cooking oil. If there is a problem, I want it to be there's.

outrun · February 2002

Lexus of Norwood wanted over $200 for the 10k service. Bernardi Toyota wanted $38.95 for the factory recommended 10k service.

For over $200, I would expect my oil to be changed, my tires rotated, an hour massage, a 4 course meal of my choice, and a bottle of wine. All I would get would be the first two item, some stale donuts, and a lousy cup of coffee. Oh, and I'd get to watch the news on a cheap big screen TV and surf the web with their dial-up internet connection. Joy.

If Lexus charged, say, $50 instead of $38.95, I would go there. But over $200? No thanks.

And if Toyota were smart, they'd link the Toyota and Lexus databases, so all the records would be available no matter where one went.

-Craig

wwest · February 2002

I do my own oil changes.

Not to save money, but to be certain its done correctly.

I don't understand why anyone would go back to Jiffy Lube if you can't trust them. That's why I don't go to Lexus or Toyota, they hire those same "gofers", mcD "flippers" as jiffy lube.

Also I don't like getting hasselled each time I go in and have to tell them "no, I only want done just what my Lexus owners manual says needs to be done, and my car doesn't quialify for "rough service"".

outrun · February 2002

I called up Toyota and told them what vehicle I have, and what service I wanted (oil change, tire rotation). The guy on the phone was very polite, didn't pressure me into anything, didn't mention anything about a rough service, etc.

Hopefully they'll treat me like a human being when get there, and the service guys aren't ex cons.

-Craig

mikey00 · February 2002

If Lexus was just charging an extra 20 or 30 bucks I would probably pay it. Mainly because they are the providers of the warranty and stand behind their work. I just don't think their work is any better than the quick lubes.
10k service at my dealer is $100. It's not as much as some others charge, but it is still 5 times as much as I am currently paying. If your math still comes up with $20 difference I have a used car you may be interested in.

ctk1 · February 2002

Still wait untill car reach 10,000 miles. It's 9500 miles.
Get the OEM oil filter at irontod.com cost 5.99 each + .72 for drain plug gasket.You must asking for oil filter PART# 90915-YZZB9. Lexus Norwood charge 12.00 each after 20% discount...damn
No need for the jack to do oil change.
Agree with wwest, I change oil for two reasons:
1.Save the money (Make my wife happy)
2.Done correctly (I feel safe when wife drive alone with the baby)

gsenthil · February 2002

If I had the knowledge/place to do an oil change, I would do so. Due to lack of a garage, I have to get it done at a dealer.

I am willing to pay a small premium for Lexus service but not willing to pay 4-5 times the amount compared to that charged by Toyota. At my Lexus dealership, oil changes and simple jobs are not done by the service people at the the main shopfloor but some rather inexperienced people, some of which wash the cars too.

When I didnt have a car (at all), I would often wonder at people when I saw S Class/7 Series/Lexus LS etc parked at Costco. Now that I own a Lexus, I think differently. People who own luxury nameplates dont have money to throw away, they just have money to spend on what they deem a good value for money. I spent more for my Lexus because I perceived it to be a good value for my $s. As for the $300 10k service, I dont see any justification for the additional $$$s.

Lexus charges $12 for the oil filter, the same is available for $5 at my Toyota dealership. Go figure.

Senthil

gsenthil · February 2002

In case of a tire flat, the last thing you want to discover is to have a unusable spare. At least if you rotate them every 5/10 miles you know they are in good condition.

All tires must be treated equally, irrrespective of their placement or position

Even if you didnt have the spare tire rotated the first few times, I guess you can start doing so from next time. I am going to do the same

Senthil

danrx · February 2002

From all of this Oil-Change talk, it sounds like the Toyota Service Center will be quiet busy from now on.

What is the deal with Warming up the Car ?
Do you warm-up your RX ?
I have heard that the ideling is bad, but with all this sludge talk and Short trips running cold

What's the concensus ? Idle, no Idle ???

wwest · February 2002

The idea is this, if your "typical" trip is not long enough to allow the entire engine, oil, water jacket, etc, to fully and completely warm up to a normal operating temperature, then it would be a good idea to "pre-heat" it so it will.

As the engine warms up any moisture ondensed on the various parts and possibly in the oil itsself will be evaporated or boiled away.

zielinw · February 2002

My idea of a warmup is to let the engine run for about 20secs. I do wait a little longer in the winter sometimes 2mins, if the temp is below 20. The only reason I wait for a warmup is to allow the oil circulate before starting to drive. This has never cause a problem on any of my cars, that I was aware of.

On tire rotation, maybe I am just fooling myself, but I just have the fronts rotated to the rear. I don't ever rotate the spare, nor use it unless I have a flat. It seems less expensive to just deal with 2 or 4 tires when obtaining new ones then rather than 3 or 5 tires.

zielinw · February 2002

To the person who was off for 3 days only to see the Lexus trashed, and the resale values plummet... Not to worry, there is no better car for its purpose than the Lexus RX300, (or else why would all of us astute folks have bought one)!

But, one has to complain just to keep the dealers honest, and on their toes. The Caddy dealers always acted like I was made of money when I came in for service. Believe or not the Infiniti dealer was not too bad for the cost of service.

Now for the Lexus dealer, I should not be getting gouged for at least 4 years, unless they get me at the scheduled checkups.

But, the reason I bought a new Lexus versus a used one was the cost of a used Lexus was so high that a new one seemed a better value. There are people getting $28k for a 1999 RX300 in excellent condition. That is outrageous, unless you are the seller!

lex2270 · February 2002

My wife's 1999 Lexus RX 300 had an "oil turning to gel" problem at 67.000 miles. Lexus said it was "failure to maintain problem", denied warranty coverage and said the solution was a new engine, $14,000. After much complaining by me up the chain to Lexus national they said that they would try to clean it, and finally did for $1,300 out of my pocket.

Three weeks ago, at 85,000 miles the engine seized while I was driving. At the dealer they laughed when I suggested it that the "gel" problem was a an engine design error and told me to have my rx300 dead hulk towed off of their lot.

Today the dealer called and said, as matter of good will, they would replace the engine for free. He said a lot of rx300 owners were having a gel problem. It will take 3 to 7 weeks to get the new engine because the demand for replacement rx300 engines is so high.

They did not know I am in the process of preparing a class action law suit for similarly situated Lexus and Toyota owners. The advantage of being a lawyer is that you do not get taken as often.

randyrhodes · February 2002

I can't believe this, I picked up my new Lexus RX300 today, because I am so wealthy and all, I was driving home and noticed the stiching on the leather wrapped wheel was uneven in one spot. Oh My Gosh.What should I do?

tarik · February 2002

Interesting behavior on Lexus' part, but every other manufacturer would most likely have acted in a similar way. Please keep the board posted as to the further goings.

As I dropped my Rex off for the 30k service today, the SM explained to me that oil gelling is a result of oil changes being done every 7500 miles. He said that Lexus only shows that much good will because this interval is what they suggest in their manual - they better recognize it as their fault. It also seems that this particular engine design is somewhat sensitive to heat accumulation and therefore prone to sludging.

Tarik

tarik · February 2002

The big pricing guide in my dealer's service hall suggests that a regular 30k service costs $560. When I got the car new, they had supplied me with a dealer-specific booklet listing all necessary services (incl. work done) and their cost. In it, the 30k lists at $490. Before I brought the car in, I compared the 25k ($145) and the 30k write-ups, and whaddaya know - the differences (for $345) are the replacement of:

- transmission fluid
- differential oil and transfer case oil
- brake fluid
- air / fuel filter
- PCV valve
- a/c filter
and the inspection of:
- engine drive belts (?)
- drive shaft support bearings (?)

I didn't even have to argue with him about this calculatory dead end before he agrred to $300 for the entire service. I picked up the loaner and off I went. Well, it's still expensive but reassuring in case my engine gives up on me.

Tarik

ruski · February 2002

Why is it bad to go synthetic and then switch back to petroleum-based?

fedlawman · February 2002

Are you going to get your original $1300 back?

wwest · February 2002

I still have a MY2000 GS300.

fedlawman · February 2002

I haven't forgotten.

I've been busy with work and haven't had time to call on you. I did think of you a few weeks ago while I was working in Mercer Island, or should I say, "Lexus Island"?

I'll call you before the end of the week and set something up.

Regards,

Brian

mooretorque · February 2002

lex, also replied over at clublexus.

all my lawyer friends maintain that the best thing about being a lawyer is that you can sue someone for free.......

maybe medicine wasn't my best career choice after all; all of the above mentioned also seem to play a lot more golf than me, too

john339 · February 2002

Important information from CBS News and Automotive News that should be of interest to any family members or friends who currently own or are considering purchasing one of these affected Toyotas, RX300s are included:

http://www.kmov.com/business/business_stories/NEWS_020219_toyota_engines.html

Automotive News Article:

http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=38302

mrrogers · February 2002

in the way that auditing firm Arthur Anderson misled the Enron employees, and the way Consumer Reports magazine and J.D. Power and Associates misled consumers about the reliability of the Lexus/Toyota vehicles concerning oil gel? Their published reports read like ad copy for Lexus/Totota. I always found it interesting that they are "experts" on everything from can openers to autos, but the serious car magazines like Car & Driver give lukewarm reviews to many Lexus/Toyota vehicles. For example, Car and Drivers Ten Best list is not dominated by Lexus/Toyota.

Perhaps it is like the mutual fund ads where they say that past performance does not guarantee future returns?

Could it be that their surveys ask the wrong questions, and they ask the wrong people? I feel many people that fill out these surveys would probably try to put another CD in the CD changer if their car would not start. They also may take the key out of the ignition, and look at it for awhile.

wwest · February 2002

Kill the messenger, ignore the bad news..

rlui1 · February 2002

All this talk of engine sludge is making me worry. Is the sludge problem a concern for the 2002 RX?

Another question - The shifting into Reverse and Park with a cold engine seems a little rough. Is this normal? Seems to me an expensive luxury SUV should be much smoother. My 2002 Jetta 1.8T doesn't do that!

outrun · February 2002

I get a little "jolt" when shifting from P to R, from R to D, etc. when the engine is cold (warmed up less than 2 minutes when it's below 30 degrees outside). The RPMs are up around 2k, so the engine is making a bit of torque at that speed.

They COULD have put in some electronics to supress the power sent to all 4 wheels (in AWD models), but didn't.

Maybe the '03 redesign will incorporate that.

-Craig

ranjith1 · February 2002

Does anybody know whether they are going to remodel the 2003 RX300?

rlui1 · February 2002

Craig,

Thanks for your response. Nice to know I'm not the only one experiencing the "jolt".

Rich

hzhao · February 2002

There are several posts who asked about 2003 RX300. I have posted some info about 2003 RX300 in early this month, here is some of the recap:

2003 RX300 will be using a new 3.3V6 and overall length will be 11 inches longer than current model, but will NOT have third row seats. Although the length is close to LX and even a bit more than GX, but the width and height will be less than LX & GX. Just take a look the Toyota highlander, which is 11 inches longer than current RX, you will have an idea why "overall length" is not the only fact to make a car "bigger"......

ravl · February 2002

What is this GX model you keep talking about? Is there a link to pictures and description?

kmh · February 2002

The GX 470 is a new model that was introduced at the Detroit Autoshow this past month. It has a V8 engine and fits in between the RX and the LX. Third row jump seats and a horizontal opening full rear door are amongst some of the features. I think Lexus has some information on this model and a search for the GX470 on any search engine should turn up some photos and info, too.

stevern · February 2002

hzhao - you talk about the Highlander being 11 inches longer than the RX...Edmunds lists the 2002 HL length at 184.4 inches, wheelbase 106.9 and the 2002 RX is 180.3 and 103 inches respectively. I have a 2000 RX 300 and have driven a Highlander....the HL is not nearly a foot longer than the RX.
I assume there to be at least a significant change to the '03 RX since production is moving from Japan to Canada. It just makes sense that if they are re-tooling the Canadian factory (which currently produces Sienna's I think) they would incorporate the new model then have to switch everything again a year later........Steve

hlron · February 2002

mrrogers, regarding your statement in posting number 4489: "For example, Car and Drivers Ten Best list is not dominated by Lexus/Toyota"... you left off the Car and Driver 2001 5 Best Trucks in your posting: the Toyota Highlander was rated by Car and Driver as the best large SUV (they rated the SUVs as only small and large, no mid-size; the SUVs with a length no greater than 178" went into the small size, the rest large, thus the Highlander is in their large category).

http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/features/2001/July/200007_5best_toc.xml

mrrogers · February 2002

has the Highlander as one of their Five Best Trucks. I still feel in general, their coverage is more balanced. For example, in their long term test of the RX300, they recommended the GS and the LX470 even though they were not crazy about the RX.

outrun · February 2002

Had the oil change/tire rotation appointment last night at my local Toyota dealership for the '01 RX300.

Upon driving in, I was greeted by a friendly gentleman, who guided me into the "service" area. He ask me if I was in for the oil change/tire rotation (guess he memorized the appointment book). I acknowledged, he went out and got the VIN number, mileage, etc.

Upon returning, I asked him a few questions. First, I asked if they use the spare tire in the tire rotation. He said no, that they prefer to not use the spare, especially on AWD vechicles since the tread difference between a "fresh" tire, and one with 10k miles on it might cause an imbalance of tire rotation speed. Personally, I thought it was a bunch of malarky, but hey, whatever.

Then I asked if they do a front to rear, or criss-cross rotation. He said front to rear, because of something to do with the steel belts, and criss-cross may cause a vibration or something. Whatever.

Then I asked about the gelling/sludge issue. He's like "You've heard of that, too?". So I told him that the news agencies have reported it, it's all over the news groups and car sites, etc. So he said that they've had "some" sludge engines in their bay (mostly Siennas), took them apart, confirmed the sludge, asked the customers for proof of "normal" oil changes, and none of them could come up with any. It sounds a little odd that NONE of the customers could come up with oil change receipts, but hey, who am I to argue.

So I asked him what I should do with the RX. He said I should change the oil between 3,000 and 5,000 miles, and that the 7,500 mile schedule in the RX is a bit long, and is in there to show new customers that the maintenance of the vehicle isn't so bad. I don't know if I believe that, either. But I'll faithfully be changing the oil every 4,000 miles from now on. I even scheduled it in the Nav screen "Info" center to remind me (first time using that feature).

I was going to ask him why other engines from other makes don't have this problem when they don't change their oil on a regular basis, since I find it hard to believe that only Toyota owners neglect their cars, but I didn't want to piss him off and get crappy service in the future.

Within 40 minutes, the RX had the oil changed, tires rotated and filled to 32PSI all around, and exterior washed. Final damage: $38.95 + tax.

When I got home, I checked the oil level. The mark on the dipstick is about 1/2" below the full mark. No oil drips on top of the engine or exhaust. Perfect.

I will definately be visiting my local Toyota dealership for maintenance from now on. Two thumbs up.

For those interested, it was Bernardi Toyota in Framingham, MA (on Route 9).

-Craig

outrun · February 2002

While at the Toyota dealership last night, I took a long look at the Highlander they had in the showroom. There are actually a few parts of the Highlander that I liked better than the RX.

For example, the buttons that control the butt warmers on the Highlander are of much better quality than the RX (but only one temp, not Hi and Low). I like the dark tinting of the windows better (don't like the "mirror" finish on the RX). There is an in-dash 6 cd changer, unlike the glove box cartridge of the RX. The wood in this Highlander was a dark walnut, which I liked better than the normal wood in the RX (not sure if it was fake though). The rear passenters get two huge cup holders right on the door.

But there are things I like better on the RX. Navigation, HID lights, auto-dimming rear view mirror and side mirrors (the rear view mirror on the Highlander looks like it was pulled from a '85 Tercel), better window switch placement, wood steering wheel, two temp bun warmers, etc.

The Highlander in the showroom stickered for $35,200. It had wood all over the interior (tastefully done though), and where the pocketbook holder is in the RX, this Highlander had it covered with a "console" type add-on, that made a bridge over this area (there was a pass through from the driver to passenger). So there was still place to put a small pocketbook (under the console), and it looked pretty slick with a continuous flow of wood from HVAC controls to the cup holders next to the driver.
But for $35k, just spend a few more k's, and get the Lexus with better warranty.

-Craig

kmh · February 2002

Maybe so, however, the HL has had the advantage of a few years to "improve" some items over the RX which has never really had any significant changes since its introduction. That said, the RX was still the best selling Lexus. Hard to mess with a good thing...

BTW, what was the Toyota service guy's response to your question regarding why it seemed only neglected Toyota engines get sludge and other makers do not???

Thanks.

outrun · February 2002

Read my message again. I said I wanted to ask, but didn't, since I didn't want to start a "relationship" with the dealership on a bad note. Maybe in the future I'll ask.

The RX, for '01, had some significant improvements, including, but not limited, to:
o Navigation
o HID headlights
o VSC
o TRAC
o Additional wood trim options (steering wheel)
o "Shiney" door handles inside
o Revised tail lamps (maybe not significant, but I hated the old ones)

Some of these improvements aren't even available on the Highlander, so I don't really see an advantage of the Highlander being released later.

-Craig

tarik · February 2002

Well, I asked this very question yesterday when I picked the Rex up from its 30k service. First, the mechanic had given me the explanation on how sludge develops, and that noone with this problem could verify correct oil changes...

Whan I wanted to know why Toyota's 3.0 V6 is especially susceptible to this phenomenon, he went to explain to me that due to the aluminum construction of the engine, the heat dissipation is quicker, therefore the warming of the engine takes a little longer. This, in turn, would gunk up oil returns and such with gel while the remaining little bit of oil has to take care of lubricating the engine, allowing it to now run hot.

They are basically trying to imply that all these situations are caused by an oil change interval of more than 5000 miles, which is bologna. In Europe there is no car on the market with an oil change interval <9000 miles, why should it be any different here? Is the Toyota V6 the only aluminum engine? Didn't think so. The only engine which is somewhat abused by short-distance and city driving? Reality check, please. Oil quality? Hmm, that's a possibility.

Redundand and brainwashed is what comes to mind, but hey, we've got to deal with it.

Tarik

outrun · February 2002

Honda has been making aluminum engines for eons. I don't see any sludge issue with them. And they're probably the highest revving of them all.

I also have a '96 Honda Accord EX with the 2.3 inline 4 (aluminum). There are a TON of these engines in service. Haven't heard of any sludge in them.

-Craig

Lexus RX 300

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