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Suzuki Grand Vitara vs Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape vs Saturn

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Comments

  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Whether it's fake wood (plood) or fake aluminum (pluminum), what's the point? Either give me real burl wood and brushed aluminum or don't bother at all. I'd rather have a nicely padded and textured plastic interior any day. I also think that the current brushed aluminum look is just a fad and will look dated in a few years. (Just my .02 of course)

    -Frank P.
  • mmspealmmspeal Member Posts: 122
    No Steve, the problem with the QEW is that it is not enough lanes, 6 most places, then goes to 8, then bottle necks when it drops back down to 6.

    The 401 through Toronto is 16 lanes wide at some points though. Have you ever been up here or just know what the traffic is like from what you've heard?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Right, the 401. I've been on both, but just a few times.

    But by far the worse drivers up there are going East out of Montreal :-)

    Steve
    Host
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  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    Never understand that bottle neck through Oakville / Burlington. Seems to happen all the time.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Some plood (plastic wood) is ok, some aren't. I at least want something that won't scratch off, so I'd prefer that to painted silver.

    -juice
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    Been there, done that!

    tidester
    Host
    SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
  • clever1clever1 Member Posts: 123
    Thanks for the CarConnection link. Keith Bradsher is a very controversial figure who has literelly made his career from thwarting the trend toward Detroit's light truck and SUV production. Like most studies that he and others use to prop their opinions, there are significant flaws and inconsistencies.

    Bradsher on Frontline, PBS, July 2001: How will the changing demographics of SUV buyers influence rollover rates?

    "A big factor holding down the number of rollover deaths in SUVs until now is that these have mostly been $35,000 luxury vehicles being bought by prosperous middle-aged families with children who don't go out much after dark, aren't drinking a lot. The problem is coming in that teenagers like SUVs more than any other age group, according to the automakers' research. ... They lack the driving skills to keep a vehicle like a sport utility on the road with all four wheels down. Then you are probably going to see more rollovers. ... "

    --- so, what's the point? SUVs are dangerous, or that they're dangerous in the hands of inexperienced drivers? Isn't any vehicle? Should we outlaw anything bigger than a Kia Rio to anyone under the age of 23? Or, should we pretend that the teen who wants to lay waste to another SUV from a stoplight (sorry, I couldn't resist) might not lose control and roll over our smallish convertible or sedan?

    From the Colombia Journalism Review, Sept/Oct 1998
    "Bradsher has blown the whistle on the harsh reality that their [SUVs] increasing presence on the roads can be deadly to passengers in smaller, standard cars. Auto executives, and many journalists on the beat, argue that larger vehicles have always had an advantage over smaller cars in accidents – so why all the fuss? .....Speak with other auto reporters and they'll tell you that winning a Pulitzer is Bradsher's primary motive in devoting so much time and space to SUVs."

    Of course, there are probably as many references touting Bradsher's wisdom about the dangers of SUVs as there are critics, although I believe the matter is much simpler than such debate. Answer this: If you were driving with your family and saw an out-of-control Navigator speeding at you head-on in thick traffic, what would you rather be driving, a Camry or a Land Cruiser?
  • carseeker4carseeker4 Member Posts: 228
    .... its going to be totally one-sided.
  • clever1clever1 Member Posts: 123
    That's a direct quote from Bradsher on Frontline. I just found it interesting that he's providing one of the best arguments against blaming the vehicle niche he deplores.

    Frankly, I think it would be more effective to battle aggressive drivers and tailgaters than any particular auto class.

    By the way, I'm not a fan of fake wood trim either, although some lacquered real wood looks almost as plastic-y.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    you can say I am bias against large SUV's. These vehicles are such a waste. Granted, we live in America were we choose with our wallets. I have personal friends that drive a Yukon, another drives an F250 4 door truck. Neither own boats, campers or anything to tow! Simply owned for status.
    Where do you prefer your gear selector?
    column or center console between the seats?
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    Gosh - you don't think that they are going to start blaming the driver for rollovers, do you? It isn't his fault that he is driving 20-30 mph over the posted speed limit in an overloaded SUV, and weaving in and out of traffic, tailgating slower cars etc. It's got to be the car manufacturer for putting out an unsafe car.

    Sorry about being sarcastic - I see the above situation almost every day. It constantly amazes me that many people don't seem to realize that having that extra height comes at a price - you can't drive an SUV like a sports car. And that sports car has some advantages over the SUV - like nimble handling and lots of power.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    "It isn't his fault that he is driving 20-30 mph over the posted speed limit in an overloaded SUV, and weaving in and out of traffic, tailgating slower cars etc. It's got to be the car manufacturer for putting out an unsafe car."

    Even if you aren't weaving in and out of traffic in an overloaded SUV at 20-30 mph above the speed limit, you are still putting yourself and others in danger by moving along at an excessive speed alone. You never know what is going to happen in front of you and a speeding SUV will not handle an emergency situation as well as most cars will.

    paisan seems to think otherwise. It is easy to do that though.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    scape: but Ford, GM, and Chrysler are most guilty of selling huge trucks, FWIW.

    Some Excursions are even exempt from CAFE standards because the GVWR is so high. I think a special license should be required to drive such a huge beast, it only makes sense. You want a 16 year old driving that thing and sharing the road with you, loaded to capacity? We need graduated licensing.

    I prefer shifters on the center console. Column shifters remind me of my dad's old cars. I don't like the ones in the dash, either, like the Highlander. Tradeoff is you can't walk between the seats, but I prefer the solution Volvo uses - let the rear seat slide forward for access to a kid in the center booster seat (also built-in).

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    SUV or pickup with a GVW over 8500 pounds is exempt. That means all Excursions, 2500 series Suburbans/Yukon XLs, Chevy-GMC 1500HD/2500/2500HD/3500 pickups, Ford Super Duty F-250/350 pickups, and Dodge 2500/3500 pickups.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    So they're all gas guzzlers and will remain that way, basically.

    Yet any 16 year old with a plain, basic license can drive them. It ain't right, they should require a different class of license.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    and probably everywhere else, if you have a regular drivers license, you can drive anything up to (Class VI) 26,000 pounds (school buses excepted, I think). Anything over that requires a CDL (commercial drivers license).

    I disagree with you about the license. I want to be able to drive the bigger trucks if I need to.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    But you should be tested to higher standard if you are going to be driving a 13 ton vehicle (loaded) down the road, don't you think?

    Let me put it this way - could your son handle driving a 13 ton truck without any additional training?

    Someone like you probably should get a little extra driver training to drive something that big. I wouldn't mind if I had to go. Nowadays they require similar training before you can get a motorcycle license.

    -juice
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    atex - Toyota builds the Sequoia, Tundra, Land Cruiser which aren't gas savy.. Honda now builds the Pilot. Nissan too is on its way with a full size truck/SUV. Rumor is HOnda too is on its way with a Truck also. Its not all GM/Ford/Dodge..
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    would never (want to) drive anything that big.

    The problem with extra licensing is, it would put a HUGE burden on the commercial industry. The only real difference between a Class VI (26K GVW) truck and a Class VII (26,001 - 33K) truck is the GVW. The class VI exists "purely" so drivers don't have to get a CDL. Physically, a Ford F-650 (Class VI) and a Ford F-750 (Class VII) are identical. Same is true with other Class VI/VII trucks.

    I've been driving since 1962, and in all those years I've driven a Class VI truck no more than a 1/2 dozen times, if that much...

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Toyota followed the domestic makes' lead. Besides, they've sort of replaced Chrysler as the 3rd part of the "Big Three", if you ask me.

    The Pilot is mid-size and far more fuel efficient than the full-size SUVs. Nissan's Murano will also be mid-sized.

    Bob: even if he has no interest, my point was he would not be prepared to drive that thing, though he's legally registered to do so.

    But if I have to nit-pick, I don't think you should be licensed to drive a manual tranny if you took the driver's test in an automatic. Think about it - my little sister is completely dangerous behind the wheel of a manual-equipped car.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    driving a Class VI "rig" is not something you do without extreme caution. The last time I drove one, was when I moved into my first house back in the late 1970's. That truck was an International, and did NOT have power steering! It was literally impossible to turn the steering wheel when the vehicle was parked!

    More recently (3 years ago), I drove a rather imposing Class III (F-350) U-Haul van, to move stuff out of my father-in-law's place, after he passed away. It's really just a matter of getting used to the size.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Imagine how overwhelming that might be to my sister, who got her license this month. I don't think a mere driver's license should be enough to qualify her to drive that rig legally. Just my humble opinion.

    -juice
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    I have to agree with Juice on this. As most driver's testing by the states is a joke anyway, allowing anyone who can parallel park to be able to drive whatever they want up to the point of needing a CDL is asinine, IMHO. A stepped system makes too much sense and requires too many additional trips to the DMV to appeal to most people though.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    This topic doesn't do much comparing lately, but the threads are so interesting I'm not complaining :-)


    For those who are shopping, here's a new review of the Vue:


    Long-Term Road Test: 2002 Saturn Vue



    Steve

    Host

    SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Price paid seems a little high, and 18.5 mpg ain't nothing to brag about. OTOH, the red looks better than any other color I've seen on it.

    -juice
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    Look at all the options added, of course it's pricey, the tester is loaded. Most small SUVs don't even have OnStar and side head air bags available.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Guess so, $23k for starters ain't too bad given the V6. I'd add ABS ($575), sunroof ($725), and a 6CD ($500), so that's pretty loaded for just under $25k.

    $700 for OnStar? You gotta be kidding me.

    I wish they offered a manual with the V6.

    -juice
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    I'm glad that Edmunds got one for a long term test. I was surprised about the gas mileage - I thought for sure it would be better than that. My 4.0L Wrangler gets that kind of mileage.

    I don't have a good answer about licensing. For instance, I drive one of the poorest high speed handling SUVs on the market, I think. Should there be a seperate license for it, just because a small number of idiots out on the road don't drive it safely? Most people I know who drive them know enough to drive it slower than anything else, and to crawl along if it is windy.

    As far as younger drivers go - as juice and others pointed out - they don't have much experience to know what safe handling is all about. Maybe we should go with a system that has a 1 year learners permit, or something like that, so that young drivers can get more experience before they are "turned loose."
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It has 4k miles, so it might get better with break-in. Also, the V6 Tribute they had long-term got something like 16mpg. Those Edmunds editors can be pretty demanding!

    -juice
  • shill3shill3 Member Posts: 124
    I have my heart set on the Liberty since I plan to go off-road quite a bit, but if I was looking at a soft-roader, I am not sure the VUE would get the nod. Styling-wise, it looks like the Outlander but with less personality. I am dissappointed to read about the quality issues. Think I prefer the upcoming Nissan Murano (sp?) as an urban all-wheel drive run about, at least as far as looks go.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Murano is going to compete at a higher price level, though, probably in the 30s. It's supposed to go up against V6 Highlanders.

    -juice
  • clever1clever1 Member Posts: 123
    I've been seeing a silver Vue around town for the past few months -- pretty nice looking, considering the design generally reminds me of a hybrid Buick-Rendezvous-meets-Chinese-take-out-food-container. Owners seem pretty happy with them, especially since Saturn does make their customers feel well appreciated after the sale.

    As for the graduated licensing topic, I'm wondering what's done in other countries. For example, I know that Germany has (or at least had) relatively stricter training and licensing standards (including first aid classes) for all age groups; but I'm not sure what the minimum age for cruising the autobahn is. I haven't formed an opinion on this yet, but wonder what it would be like if the US raised the minimum driving age for full licensing. Maybe inexperienced drivers should have vivid decals or antenna flags indicating their level of training until they have proven some practice and skill (isn't something like that done in Canada?). Conspicuity has a way of making people behave more carefully.

    Otherwise, I wouldn't be completely averse to taking special driver training for different classes of vehicles, although it might be inconvenient. The biggest problem would be dealing with (and paying for) the inevitable beaurocracy. I suppose that our "insurance point" system takes care of some of that problem indirectly. Meanwhile, whenever I see a rental truck in my mirror or path my impulse is to get as far away as possible.
  • jimbob17jimbob17 Member Posts: 77
    Is the problem an industry, state or parent problem.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    while great in theory, would be just about impossible to implement here. It would effect virtually any business that uses a truck in any sort of manner. It would probably be the end for any truck rental business, especially those who cater to homeowners in need of a truck for moving chores. The average person, who rarely needs a truck would never apply for such a license, and therefore would not be able to rent a U-Haul truck, on those rare occasions that one is needed.

    Besides that, the trucking industry would fight any such legislation to its death.

    Bob
  • clever1clever1 Member Posts: 123
    I agree with regard to rental trucks, although greater restriction would most likely create a new or larger market for professional services to take up the slack (i.e., the truck rental businesses would merely add drivers for hire). Insurance standards and heightened liability issues for businesses that allow employees to drive vehicles for or from their company are taking care of part of that problem, anyway. I was really more curious about what the minimum licensing standards are for drivers elsewhere in the world compared to here in the US.

    More on topic, has anyone here actually seen a Murano up close yet?
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    paisan seems to think otherwise. It is easy to do that though. I've been in emergency situations with my lifted trooper, my XT6, my escort, my rodeo, and in all cases never felt any less safe or more out of control with my SUVs than my std. passenger cars. Perhaps people should take responsibility to learn how to drive rather than try to blame everyone and everything other than themselves.

    -mike
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    about people taking responsibility for their own actions. I don't think my Wrangler, driven within its handling characteristics, is more inherently dangerous than my Mustang was on the autoban (my closest experience with a sports car). I would never try to drive the Wrangler like that Mustang (I sure wouldn't want to tempt fate by seeing if the Wrangler could go 95+ mph).

    I talked to my friend who owns the Vue. She has a 4 cylinder and still loves it - it goes up and down the mountains very easily. She has a 2WD (lucky her - she isn't a commuter) so it isn't important for her to be able to get out of her place in the winter. She thinks the seat back isn't the most comfortable, but it isn't bad, and she loves the gas mileage.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Remember, these are v6 engines with torque and power to pull and haul heavy loads confidently. I am now averaging about 21.7MPG in my v6 4wd Escape. I would be willing to bet the mileage on the VUE will get better in time.
  • vin_weaselvin_weasel Member Posts: 237
    here is a link to the program in our province:


    http://www.gov.mb.ca/tgs/leg/gdl/class5.html


    We have many more classes of vehicles that you need special tests for to be able to drive legally. The link is only for cars and light trucks.

  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    "Perhaps people should take responsibility to learn how to drive rather than try to blame everyone and everything other than themselves."

    I agree too paisan, but would you or anyone else blame themselves if they rolled an SUV over while driving at "excessive" speeds?

    We stand to benefit more (both financially and legally) by blaming the manufacturer(s).
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    But that's me. If I'm doing 90mph in my Trooper and roll it it's not Isuzu's fault.

    -mike
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    I like to think that I would too. It's a crazy world we live in though.
  • carseeker4carseeker4 Member Posts: 228
    .... as Americans in general (not anyone in particular here), we tend to blame others for our failures to assume responsibility with risk. Hey...look at how many lawyers we have in this country! They are always encouraging us to blame someone else! My one sister doesn't want to buy an SUV because she worries about "the rollover problem". As mentioned here, its definitely an increased risk. You don't drive an SUV like you drive a car. But, I assume the rollover "risk" because the car gives me greater ability to NOT risk getting stranded in a snowstorm, for example....its all a tradeoff of the risks you want to assume.
  • clever1clever1 Member Posts: 123
    Thanks for the link, vin! Very interesting, and yet not particularly complex. Canada seems to have more interest in common sense than the US in that regard.

    Part of the solution: Driver skills training. Safe and considerate driving practices. Remembering that driving is a privilege, not a right.

    Big part of the problem: Lawyers and insurance companies have created a game not unlike "Who Wants to be a Millionaire?". Here, even something like getting fat from too much fast food stands a great chance of gaining people a financial windfall (from court or publicity); while taking personal responsibility for foreseeable consequences costs money. No mystery about whether that's likely to change.

    On many of these boards, lots of complaints turn quickly into "is there a possiblity for a class action suit here?" And then everyone wonders why manufacturers are often slow to adjust anything that can be construed as an admission of defect. Buying a new vehicle and buying a lottery ticket are still two different things, aren't they?
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    Buying a new vehicle and buying a lottery ticket are still two different things, aren't they?

    I'm considering bringing a class action suit against the PowerBall because they invariably pick the wrong numbers! I know I have the winning numbers when I buy my ticket but they always manage to bungle it and invariably pick the wrong numbers every Wednesday and Saturday. :-)

    tidester
    Host
    SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
  • carseeker4carseeker4 Member Posts: 228
    ... the problem is, there are too many Americans who seriously consider doing (or actually do!) something just like that. Its like the MacDonald's coffee spilling thing... tipping over my SUV MUST be someone else's fault!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, how dare they serve coffee that's actually hot! I want mine cold, luke warm at most! LOL

    I wonder if UHaul would offer some basic advice, and maybe offer a little instruction to a newbie. Just a thought if the industry wanted to address it themselves.

    -juice
  • goldencouple1goldencouple1 Member Posts: 209
    The McDonalds coffee spilling thing was possible because McDonalds preferred to deliver their coffee at a certain temperature. They knew that on a fairly preditable basis customers would be scalded by their coffee at this temperature, but McDonalds had done the math and determined that they could deliver the coffee at that temperature, sell more coffee (because it was so delightfully hot) and settle with those who were scalded by McDonalds coffee, while still making an acceptable profit. Restaurant coffee is a very high profit item in general, and McDonalds knew that their coffee drew people in and helped sell other menu items. However, other fast food chains had had the same experience as McDonalds (that is, a predictable number of scaldings and the necessary settlements out of court) and these other fast food chains had taken the tactic of reducing the heat of their coffee to reduce scalding incidents, and the necessity of settlement. Given this background, a jury awarded the nice older woman who was burned by the McDonalds coffee a substantial award -- more as a punishment to McDonalds than to compensate the woman for her injuries, though her injuries were pretty significant.

    You may object to personal injury and manufacturer liability claims. You may find PI (personal injury) attorneys objectionable. God knows I do, and I've worked with them and for them in a support capacity; they argue with you over where the sky is blue on a sunny day. But if you are aware of what goes on, you begin to see that most large manufacturers and insurance companies will do the math and go for profit over safety on a pretty regular basis. And in a world where your elected representative will put campaign contributions ahead of morality, ethics, and your safety, someone has to be the objectionable [non-permissible content removed] that makes things uncomfortable for those that put profit over public safety. And do not forget that the vast majority of awards are given by juries, and that the defendants have the highest priced lawyers available, the best educated, the best supported, the most articulate. Where things settle out of court, usually the plaintiff actually has a pretty good case - if he/she did not, there'd be a fight.

    I've known a lot of doctors. And bankers. And architects. Self-made men, CEOs. Owners of insurance agencies and at least one insurance company. They were all objectionable bastards. But they had their purposes and they did their jobs well.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    This year's winner I heard was Winnebago. Apparently a guy bought one, set the crusie control and then got up to go make breakfast. Needless to say it crashed. He got a huge settlement! :(

    -mike
  • big_guybig_guy Member Posts: 372
    My favorite claim was by some elderly lady that took a pair of pliers to the lid of a 2 Liter bottle of soda to wrench off the top . . . the problem was she was twisting it the wrong way and the lid popped off (after much twisting and jerking) and hit her in the eye. She sued the soda company and won even though it was her own stupidity that caused the accident in the first place! Makes you wonder sometimes . . .
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