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juice: Was that for real re: the cruise control lawsuit and payment?? wow!
tidester
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SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
-Frank P.
http://www.auto.com/industry/buyer18_20020718.htm
Personally, I feel most companies go out of there way to develop safe products, unfortunately it is impossible to totally "idiot-proof" everything.
I think most people think that structurally most vehicles are pretty much the same, so it isn't the safety they are as interested in as other things. And if the idiots I saw passing multiple cars on a 2 lane road with difficult visibility yesterday are any indication, they don't care about their safety or the safety of anyone else. It looked like one of them managed to pull back into his lane only about 10 feet in front of the oncoming car (who had moved over onto the shoulder as much as he could).
Re: coffee. The point might have been that the coffee could have been rendered more safe with a lower temperature, while maintaining its appeal. And that McDonalds had shown a disregard for safety, choosing to injure people and settle, rather than take a safety measure other similarly situated companies had taken.
Re: juries. The Defendants have good attorneys too. There is a right to jury participation. The jury system gives the public a voice in how these situations go. If there is a problem with jury awards, it is the public at large that can remedy the situation.
If manufacturers and insurance companies had greater regard for safety and the sanctity of contracts, there'd be fewer claims and frivilous claims could be better contained.
Yes there are ravenous lawyers looking for a big score. No argument. But it takes clients, juries, injuries, negligent manufacturers or service providers, and a supporting body of law to the lawsuits possible. And most are valid claims.
Further, blaming attorneys for an ill that is basic to American culture is just one more time that people do not take responsibility for their actions. Without America being America, in all its complexity, the lawyers that try to trump up false claims could never succeed, and they would not try, as economic forces would discourage it.
Doesn't that apply only to criminal cases? I believe the McDonald's case (and the others mentioned here) are civil cases.
Any lawyers here?
tidester
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SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
I do agree that safety isn't any good if I can't afford it.
-juice
Funny how people love to jump on the lawyers, but never their clients, the juries, the judges. Guess we're all so easily manipulated by lawyers and led down the garden path by our noses.
(don't mind me - I just read John Grisham's book about jury nullification last month or so ago, so I'm an expert ).
Steve
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http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm
While the plaintiff, Stella Liebeck, legitimately suffered and was relatively paid her due, the story of this case inspired The 'Stella' Award for the most frivolous lawsuit in the U.S. Look that up on any search engine and you will find the Winnebago story and many other amusements, although it's hard to say what's urban legend and what's not without further research.
Otherwise, juries tend to favor whichever side they can empathize with on a personal level, certainly not just the facts. That's one of myriad reasons so many cases against monolithic corporations settle out of court without establishing precedent, and an obvious driving force in the vicious cycle.
Thx
Generally, I think the Forester is an excellent choice for good mileage, adequate pep, easy urban parking, excellent full-time AWD, etc.; but the others each have their definite advantages and no terrible deficiencies. Be sure to also check the other boards about these vehicles to help your decision.
I'll go ahead and stir the pot..
If you want to off road 4x4ing: Liberty
If you want great acceleration,performance: Escape
If you want great MPG's: Forrester
The Sante-Fe doesn't really have anything that makes it stand out. It has a rather 'unique' styling, but no more or less so than the Liberty or the Forrester..
Personally, I (or really my wife) drives an Escape. We never go off road, it gets a quite acceptable 21+ mpgs for us, has a great look to it and is a blast to drive..
In addition to the vehicle itself, how good are the dealer services (both in the sales and maintenance departments) for the different brands in your area?
If I were forced to rank them..
Escape, Sante-Fe, Liberty, Forrester.. My rank isn't completely based on how the vehicle 'looks', but it just has a look that doesn't appeal to me at all, coupled with its higher price and mediocre performance put it last. I also didn't like the lower seating position.
The Liberty is a small step up in performance (not handling). It is rugged (and has more of an SUV look to it) but you pay for this off road ability with a much firmer ride than most others in this class. I'm not a fan of the spare on the rear tailgate. I don't have any off-roading needs that you cant do with common sense and a front wheel drive car with decent ground clearance. (gotta have the bottom of the vehicle above the snow).
The Sante-Fe doesn't have the acceleration that the Jeep has, but makes up for this with a comfortable ride, great price for the options you get, and decent interior.. I didn't like the exterior look of the Sante-Fe, and the Hyundai dealerships in my area have questionable reputations.
The Escape was the best for what mattered most to me. Great acceleration, excellent handling, comfortable ride and seating position, excellent exterior look, good value, reliability and dealer service.
Everyone has different priorities and tastes. All of these are great vehicles. No matter which you choose, you won't be disappointed..
If lawyers did not exist, certain persons would fulfill the role, and...lawyers would exist. Lawyers fight bullies, and are generally well compensated for it. And they are unpopular. And they suffer tremendous stress. They are responsible for their clients' welfare, morally, ethically, and legally; and the vast majority take that responsibility very seriously and end up losing sleep over it. Without lawyers willing to face an unsympathetic public and espouse unpopular causes, many if not most of your rights would not exist now. It is not out of the goodness of the hearts of large US businesses and the US government that civil rights are enforced or that you are protected from tainted food, unsafe working conditions, poorly manufactured products, or pollution, or a host of other hazards and infringements of privileges and rights granted by law, or God, or whatever. It may not always be convenient that people can behave as if they live in a relatively free country -- not if you have to pay some price for it. But when it is your rights or health that is on the line, and the majority of people would you prefer that you suffer in silence, take your loss, and disappear, then it is pretty good to have someone that will take up your cause.
There are many individuals out there who's only interest is making a buck (or several thousand), when there was no wrong done. These individuals seek out a lawyer to pursue their cause, and it is the lawyers responsibility to help their client. My problem here is with the individual that approached the lawyer..
Then there are folks who are on the fence. They know there was no wrong done, and have no plans on getting a lawyer involved. UNTIL some lawyer looking to make a buck (or several thousand) and gives incentive for the individual to pursue the case (by offering that the customer can only make money, and not lose). My problem here is with the lawyers that do this, and the clients they represent.
There are other types of individuals out there that want to blame everyone else and not take responsibility for their actions.
Summary: I'm glad there are lawyers there to take up our causes. But often the 'cause' being pursued was created by the lawyer and not the individual.
Lawyers can't stop law suit abuse, but there are alot of lawyers out there encouraging it rather than discouraging it.
Sortof like the media which today does more 'creating the news' rather than just 'reporting the news'.
And now back to our originally scheduled program.
tidester
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SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
Anyone else want to weigh in with some opinions for 4wdisfun?
Steve
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SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Speaking of which, I think all paper clips should carry warning labels admonishing the user from thrusting them into their eyeballs! :-)
tidester
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SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
ENJOY YOUR NEW CARS... NO MATTER WHICH YOU GET!
The Liberty is by far the best choice if you plan on doing any serious off-roading. It has striking looks and is arguably to most SUVish of the bunch. It also gets the worst MPG, has a stiffer ride and will be the most tippy in turns.
The Santa Fe probably offers the most features for the price and is an excellent all-around vehicle. Its negatives include questionable looks and long term reliability as well as a weak V-6 engine. However, looks are subjective and the Santa Fe's reliability thus far has been excellent and may continue to be so.
The Escape/Tribute twins also offer good value. Since Bess has already expounded on their positive attributes I won't repeat them here. However, I have to disagree with his inclusion of reliability as a positive attribute. These vehicles were plagued by several recalls when they were initially introduced and while Ford seems to have corrected most of the initial problems, their long term reliability is estimated to be average at best.
The Forester has the best handling, gas mileage, safety ratings and predicted reliability. Its 0-60 times are second only to the V-6 Escape and even then it is only a fraction of a second slower. Some people don't like the Forester because it has a relatively lower seating position and looks more like a wagon than a SUV. However, these are pluses when it comes to handling. The Forester also is a poor choice if you plan on towing much. Finally, the Forester's base prices are higher than most but then it generally comes with more standard equipment.
In summation, each of these vehicles is a good choice depending on what your needs are. In most cases it usually comes down to personal preference. Test drive each and then decide which you like the best. Good luck and let us know what you decide.
-Frank P.
That goes for carrying heavier loads in the cargo area and/or on the roof too. The Escape/Tribute and Liberty easily win out there.
That's one of the main reasons we went with the Escape. Our frequent Home Depot/Lowe's trips almost always result in bringing something very heavy home, and the way home has a lot of hills to climb.
An interesting figure - I computed how much it would cost for gas for 2 vehicles - one running on premium and getting around 27 mpg (like the WRX) and another that got 20 mpg running on regular (most of this group, and includes the Wrangler). I assumed a 20 cent difference in cost (seems to be the normal difference around here) and the higher gas mileage vehicle came out cheaper. I didn't figure the mpg where they would be the same, but that did tilt me closer to the WRX (though I still would like the Forester).
-Frank P.
-mike
978 is more than 950 which is what I said. That's just how much the floor and suspension can hold. Factor pulling the stuff around (up and down hills or not) and the Escape does not get winded as easily. However, the manual transmission offered in the Forester can help in that area.
-Frank P.
If you want to pick on a model's payload, choose the RAV4, which at 760 pounds cannot even carry 4 football players, never mind their cargo.
But "mediocre" performance? I beg to differ. 0-60 times even with an automatic are right around 9 seconds (Washington Post, Motorweek), so the Escape is only maybe 5% quicker, yet it consumes about 25% more fuel.
I think the 4 cylinder Escape, Santa Fe, and Liberty might be called mediocre, but the lighter Forester still manages to be at least adequate, if not better.
Let's look at what matters to 4WDisfun, since he was the one asking. All of these fall within his price range. Only high-end Libertys would be excluded.
90% city driving, are the other 10% on the highway? I wouldn't assume he meant off road, in fact I seriously doubt it. Forester has EPA city mileage in the 20s, none of the V6s here can match that, and only the Escape V6 is quicker.
He mentioned AWD, and I would give the nod to the full time systems of the Forester and Santa Fe. The Vue and Escape and primarily FWD, with part-time AWD for slippery surfaces only.
Only the Forester and CR-V are "Best Picks" according to IIHS. Escape fall flat on its face in this test. Sante Fe still does OK.
So Forester is a well rounded choice, with no significant shortcoming. If you want more power, a turbo will arrive in less than a year, and tests from other markets have it clocked in the 6 second range to 60mph (!), which will make the Escape V6 seem, well, mediocre.
-juice
I can vouch for the Escape/Trib reliability. I have an an Escape with over 16,000 miles and not one problem. There are now 2 other web sites out on the net. I cannot link you because its agains Edmunds policy. One site has over 4,300 Escape/Tribute members. A poll was done to see how many have had this "stalling" issue along with any other terrible problems that would cause them to trade or use the lemon law. LESS than 1% had any of these problems! Another site has about 300 people who had responded to review there vehicles. With just a quick scan I counted about 13 people!@ This constant bashing that the Escape/Trib are unreliable doesn't pan out if you do your research.
If you need power to pass, pull, haul, or tow with the performance, ride and handling of a car the Escape/Tribute is the best rounded SUV on the market.
As for "16K miles of reliable service" Come talk to us when you 160K of reliable service on it.
-mike
We'll only really know the reliability after waiting. I for one am curious to see how well Santa Fe's hold up over the long haul - if they don't Hyundai's 10-year warranties may be coming back to bite them bad!
Why so defensive?
-james
I own both a Forester and a Legacy, and they are actually quite different. You probably have not driven both if you are even saying that, in fact I bet you haven't.
The Forester has a shorter wheelbase and feels more nimble, lighter on its feet. It is lighter, so it's quicker off the line, has lots more ground clearance. I've taken it on the beach and through the Pine Barrens, and done things I would never even consider trying in our Legacy.
-juice
http://www.snopes.com/autos/techno/cruise.htm
Snopes is a great site for debunking urban legends.
Although I must say my grandpa wasn't much better than that when he had his motorhome. It was a rare road trip that didn't include an extended stay at a body shop. Now he drives a minivan, which makes him slightly less lethal.
-Jason
-ss4 (one of 4 football players)
-Frank P.
They still won't hold a Big Gulp, though. ;-)
The Washington Post had an article about that McD's new cooking oil, BTW.
-juice
Gonna try for 150k on the '99 Quest, but only 1/2 way there.
Steve
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Plus my father had a 1974 F-100 custom that he had until he traded on a 1993 F-150 Lariat.
I'm planning on keeping my Escape until at least 8-10 yrs. My wife is the one who will have the sports car in the family (which I will drive too, LOL)
Odie
chuckling here
Odie
P0926 brings up good points and provided good balance to the universe.. All of the vehicles on the list stated for this little discussion(Escape, Forrester, Sante-Fe, Liberty) have just average reliability.. btw, average reliability is still very good, but Honda and Toyota generally have a slight statistical advantage in most publications.
They have consistently rated it as "above average" in previous models (and the 2003 is more of an evolutionary than revolutionary change--same engine, transmission, drive train, etc...) Consumer reports predicted "much better than average reliability" for the CR-V, the class leader in this regard.
Consumer reports lists the Liberty as too new to have adaquate data for, but other recent Jeep models have not faired well in this department. The Sante Fe was listed as "just below average" in first year reliability, and for the Escape "reliability was poor" in it's first model year.
These are all quotes from the Consumer Reports web site (www.consumerreports.org, but you need to be a member to view the vehicle profiles). Again, I'm not aware of any other source doing a systematic review of vehicle reliability.
I would probably still happily own our '88 Nissan hardbody but once we moved to the mountains we started to go through auto trannys (2 in a year) so I sadly sold it with only 290,000 miles on it (and replaced it with that Taco I so dislike).
as i had mentioned... my benz c240 has ongoing nagging problems...and as I go to the dealer to have it taken care of.. it seems that many owners have some problem or another...
The down side to the Consumer reports info is that there is a one year lag (info on 2002 reliablility will not be out until 2003). So if you are shopping current year models of vehicles like the Sante Fe and Escape, you are stuck judging their 2002 models based on the data for the 2001's.
For vehicles like the CR-V and Forester, which were redisigned for 2002/3, you get projections based on previous models.
I like Consumer Reports because, despite what some critics... *cough* Suzuki, Isuzu, Mitsubish *cough*... say, they seem to be pretty unbiased. They gave the Escape pretty good marks in their initial reviews. Things started to go south after the recalls, and after the first year survey of Escape owners. Their reviews may not be totally accurate, but it is the best source out there that I know of. Hopefully the 2002 results will be better for the Escape. It will also be interested to see if the new CR-V's hold up as well as the previous generation, especially since half of the US models are now manufactured at a brand new plant in England.
-mike