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Suzuki Grand Vitara vs Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape vs Saturn

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Comments

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    To be fair, the new Vue looks much improved. Just saw it at the Auto Show in DC yesterday.

    Also, the new Malibu is a huge improvement.

    Ironically, Toyota might be slipping a little. The Tundra and Camry have some cheap bits inside. In fact I'd go as far as saying that the Silverado has a nicer interior than the Tundra.

    Lutz is finally getting solid results, i.e. improved vehicles.

    -juice
  • readerreaderreaderreader Member Posts: 253
    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.ef5b72f/20!make=Saturn&model=VUE&ed_makei- ndex=.ef5b72f

    Example:

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    And here:

    http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showpost.php?p=987662&postcount=5

    Example:

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    Head on over.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I actually test drove an Outlook. Solid. Huge, though. I had an issue with blind spots.

    I'm leaning towards a van but it was a seriously competent crossover, and yes I'd pick one over a Pilot or Highlander.

    -juice
  • phatboycphatboyc Member Posts: 23
    It also depends on different kind of traction control. Some don't cut engine power much but mostly applies braking to individual wheel that are spinning. The best one's (LandRover, Mercedes) have a different modes with a preset algorithm just for off-road.

    I have tried the Santa Fe again last weekend. Went to the cottage where there are some nice hills on our lot. With a bit more snow than last outing. Tried with TC on or off. Couldn't see a big difference really. When the TC light in the dash came on it was always to late and I was already stuck. Doesn't cut allot of engine power tho. So far I prefer it off. Probably in my head but I feel I have more control of the vehicle.

    My dad's friend was there with his Yukon Denali. He wanted to see how his heavy mama, that's how he call it :) handle the off-road. He has no 4LO or lock button, just AWD. He went everywhere I did but always needed to accelerate allot more before the climb. As soon as he went slow he would spin and get stuck. We both had fun seeing the limitations of our SUV's.

    Tried to convince my dad to take his 02 Jeep Grand Cherokee with the nice HO engine. But even with his Quadra Drive 2 system, locking in the middle and back, he didn't want to. He said his tires are almost slick and are due to be changed. I think he just didn't want his son to get him unstuck with his Hyundai. ;)
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Nice stuff. Yeah the Denali can use the V8 power to momentum through stuff. Tires also make a big difference. Last winter despite having 4-hi/4-lo and locking center diffy with LSD front and rear on my Armada, I was able to get it stuck pretty easily in snow as the Continental tires on it were useless. This winter I have replaced them with Bridgestone AT Revos and it's like night and day in the snow/mud.

    -mike
  • xostnotxostnot Member Posts: 232
    Interestingly, the new Grand Vitara uses a stability/traction control system licensed from Daimler Chrysler. So DC may have a fancier version reserved for their costlier buggies.

    I finally got our GV stuck this winter, and I too blame it on the factory tires:-) I was in a situation where any wheelspin resulted in sideslipping, which I definitely did not want to do. I forgot to shut off the tc, which meant the wheels would individually and out of synch with each other, spin one rotation and then be braked. This totally defeated any finessing it out and eventually resulted in a dent. This tc system needs refining.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    My ABLS on the Armada would spin all 4 w/o a problem the problem was the tires :(

    -mike
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "The Vue, a car-based compact sport-utility, is heavily shopped against the Honda CR-V and Toyota RAV4. Of Vue shoppers, 20 percent also look at the CR-V and 17 percent consider the RAV4. The high-volume Ford Escape ranks 3rd on Vue shoppers' lists, which is rounded out by the Hyundai Tucson and Santa Fe, Mitsubishi Outlander, Mazda CX-7 and Jeep Compass."

    Saturn: GM's Best Defense Against Toyota (Auto Observer)
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    here. A co-worker just bought a Suzuki and whoa! Quite a difference from the old XL-7 I test drove 5 years ago. I thought Suzuki was dying but this new model is very nice and priced thousands less than its competition, yet offering the same goodies.. :surprise:
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Some shoppers. Looked at CR-V, Accord, RAV4 and a host of others. No Hyundai, no Suzuki. Not interested. I might be heavily prejudiced against the incumbents...but hey, it's my money.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "but hey, it's my money"

    Agreed, its your money. However, wouldn't you like to keep more of your money? I also used to be in the mindset that no other car manufacturer can beat a Honda/Toyota. I ventured out and never went back. Over the years have saved thousands not spending the extra $$ for a perceived quality/reliability advantage. But, to each their own.. Cheers.. ;)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "However, wouldn't you like to keep more of your money?"

    Of course I would. But I also believe I get what I pay for in the quality and reliability of the vehicle and the service center and ownership satisfaction and ultimate resale. Each individual makes their own judgement.

    The preceding is why I don't go out and buy used Elantras as transportation (and save $$$) and instead buy cars that fit form, function and finance.
  • bm000092bm000092 Member Posts: 70
    And this is exactly what I got with the new Grand Vitara: quality and reliability of the vehicle. Ultimate resale ? I don't know, but I don't care, I keep my vehicules around 10 years (until they give up).
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    I finally finished driving the updated Ford Escape and rounded out the host of vehicles. After spending extensive time in each of these vehicles, the one that provided the best overall is the Hyundai Santa Fe. Its long list of highs outshines my annoying and pickyness issues. While the rest of the group is much competent in its own ways, the Santa Fe provided the best out of the group, in terms of driving experience, power, practicability, safety, features, layout, enjoyment, space and more...
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,314
    where is fuel economy? i only ask because it was left out, and a lot of people are interested in it, over some other categories.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    CR rates the new Santa Fe highly as well, in the current issue it's near the top of the ratings.

    The XL7 looks decent, though I'm not crazy about the fact that it shares its underpinnings with the Equinox. I'd consider one if the quality and reliability reports are good after the first year or two.

    Buying v1.0 is always a risk, I guess, but if you aren't happy with yours you may be upside down because Zook resale values drop like a rock falling off a cliff.
  • xostnotxostnot Member Posts: 232
    I considered resale value when deciding whether to get a new GV. The resale value may depend on your location and the Suzuki model. Where I live, the asking prices for used Grand Vitaras, relative to their original cost, have held up as good as or better than Nissan Pathfinders. And the Pathfinders have done very well. Small cars are more favoured in our market than most of North America, so far more people will consider a used GV than, say, in Alberta. And you have to factor in the lower initial purchase price to begin with.

    My impression from browsing forums is that most GV buyers intend to keep them a long time, so they don't care about this anyway. You don't have to take my word for it. Just try to find a used 1-2 year old GV for sale.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, the new ones were a big improvement, IMO. I test drove one a while back.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Good luck finding a late model used Forester for sale also. And if you can find one, the odds are that it will be priced very close to what a new one will cost!

    -Frank
  • xostnotxostnot Member Posts: 232
    I casually checked that before making my claim. But in response to your post, I went back for the numbers from the most heavily used, used vehicle publication in the city where I live.

    5 used 2006 Foresters, 1 2006 Grand Vitara (with 166km on it).

    $23,000cdn asking price for loaded 2006 Foresters with 35,000km on them, new $30,000. Unfortunately I have no numbers on the GV's to compare them to. I don't think this limited "survey" backs up your claim.
  • done37done37 Member Posts: 64
    Up in the Northwest where I live, there are plenty of Foresters for sale, probably because there are so many out there. What is hard to find are the Forester XT's, especially with a manual. I struggled to find a pre 2006 but finally prevailed. I am odd like that!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    A used 2006 model is most likely off-lease. All that means is there were probably lease incentives in place at the time, i.e. lease subsidies.

    Not sure about how sales volumes compare, but my guess it the GV has a fewer % of leases.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    I guess it depends on where you live. In areas where Subaru has a bigger market penetration (snowy regions), it stands to reason that there would be more used ones available. As for your particular locale, your "survey" results would only stand up to scrutiny if new Foresters and GV's sold in comparable numbers. On the other hand, if the 06 Forester was sold in significantly larger numbers than the GV...

    -Frank
  • xostnotxostnot Member Posts: 232
    Ok, but does that mean a used car that's just come off a lease can be had cheaper than one that was not leased? Why? Does it matter if a used car is off a lease or not? I bought a used car once that was off a lease. It didn't seem to me it was any cheaper or different because it had been leased. Either way, doesn't it mean someone didn't want it anymore? Lease terms are pretty varied, and you can do buyouts.

    Maybe Foresters sell in greater numbers than GV's, and probably a higher proportion of those sales are leases. I thought probably the used 2006 Foresters I checked had come off leases, but I thought that didn't matter in this context. The question was which used vehicle is easier to find, and which retains resale value. I think my information addressed those points, without contradicting what has been said since.

    I also suspect I posted the new purchase price of the 2006 Foresters too low, because I took it from the current asking price for a new 2006, which should be discounted because they're a year outdated. Which means the depreciation for Foresters is worse than my numbers indicated. It may be worse than for GV's, in fact.

    If people are buying Grand Vitaras rather than leasing them, and if they expect to keep them a long time, does this suggest those buyers lack confidence in their choice? Or are we just nut cases? Park a new GV beside an new Forester and ask someone who has no idea of their pricing, which costs more. This could rub off on used sales.
  • xostnotxostnot Member Posts: 232
    True, but I was responding to your initial comments: "Good luck finding a late model used Forester for sale also. And if you can find one, the odds are that it will be priced very close to what a new one will cost!" I easily found some of them, and the asking prices are dramatically lower than the MSRP.

    I cast a wider net. Looked on eBay for 2006 Foresters and 2006 GV's. 5 2006 Foresters and 1 2006 used GV. The asking prices for the Foresters were nowhere near the new prices. Real bargains, actually.

    In March 2007, Subaru sold about 20% more vehicles in Canada than Suzuki. While unfortunately I couldn't find information specific to the Forester and GV, it would be difficult to imagine in that number there is an embedded sales ratio of 5:1 between the Forester and the GV. In fact, after looking at this I suspect the GV may retain resale value better than the Forester. You certainly get more vehicle whatever the price.

    The Subaru Loyale held resale value well because it turned out to be a very good design, in demand, long after production ceased. The new GV could turn out like that, whereas I doubt the Forester will. The Forester is getting quite dated, and I trust Subaru will soon put out a vastly improved new version.
  • xostnotxostnot Member Posts: 232
    If the 2006 Grand Vitara had come from Subaru as a replacement for the Forester, Subaru fans would have been falling over themselves to praise and buy it. This isn't entirely farfetched. The Subaru Justy was actually made by Suzuki.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Hey I'm glad you like your GV and indeed it has a lot going for it. But the reason there are so many models on the market is because no one vehicle is perfect for everyone. Personally I find the GV lacking in some of the areas that I consider important so it wouldn't matter who made it, it still wouldn't make my short list. Meanwhile I freely admit that the Forester is a poor fit for many people due to their different needs and preferences.

    -Frank
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "The Forester is getting quite dated, and I trust Subaru will soon put out a vastly improved new version."

    It may be dated but it fulfills it's intended mission the best of the bunch without any pretense. One reason it keeps getting high marks. And the turbo transforms the sleepy beast into a rocket.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think you're making way too many conclusions from far too little data. Your sample sizes are just too small to be significant.

    Plus, you'd have to know that the owners actually paid in the first place to determine actual residual values. And the condition of the cars, and the mileage, etc.

    We don't have enough info to make conclusions. I'd rely more on KBB values or the Automotive Lease Guide (ALG) to make conclusions about resale value.

    Subaru fans would have been falling over themselves to praise and buy it

    I'm glad to see you have such confidence in your vehicle, that's great.

    I was interested enough to test drive one, sure. Would I buy it? No, the V6 didn't offer the extra performance I expected, and didn't sound very refined either. Gas mileage was another concern, especially given the merely average performance. The warranty is great. It's a solid effort, no doubt, but could use a little more polish.

    Not that the Forester is perfect, far from it. I'd like to see them add a 5EAT, make stability control standard, and stretch the wheelbase just a tad.

    Any how, I found a better source for residual values:

    https://www.alg.com/deprratings.aspx

    As you can see, the Forester gets 4 stars and the Grand Vitara gets a (still good) 3 stars.

    Cheers. :shades:
  • xostnotxostnot Member Posts: 232
    Well, it's better than stating conclusions with no data, which is what I was responding to. The numbers may be small for certain items like these cars, but it could be argued that eBay listings represent an extremely large sampling of what's for sale.

    ateixeira, thanks for looking up the interesting resale value information. As I said before, GV resale values will also depend on location, and my location likes smaller vehicles. I would also guess most of the GV number would comprise the older, less desired version, while the Forester has been pretty much the same since it was introduced.

    I think most shortcomings people report with the new GV could be resolved by increasing the sound insulation and softening the suspension. Then the engine would seem quieter, and the whole thing would seem more refined. In fact, I think Suzuki should offer both "softened" and "offroad" versions of the GV. I intend to add acoustic material myself, and the stiff suspension is needed for what we bought it for.

    I checked the used listings on Canada.com. 6 used 2006 Foresters for an average asking price of $29,400. 10 used 2006 Grand Vitaras for an average asking price of $25,000. Difference in average asking price is $4400.

    The Foresters were from Ont (2), BC (2), Sask (1) and AB (1).
    The Vitaras were from Ont (3), AB (3), Quebec (4).
    So these Vitaras were more likely to be from provinces where small vehicles are less preferred, which would depress resale prices.

    New, the average MSRP of the most and least expensive 2006 Foresters was $33,250. The average of the most and least expensive new 2006 GV's was $27,250. The difference in MSRP range was $5000. I realize this is a very crude methodology, and it still does not factor out regional differences. But it does not support claims that GV's resale values drop like rocks. Instead, the most likely explanation is the difference in purchase price. I still don't believe I will suffer when it comes time to sell the GV. Just the interest on $5000 will pay for the difference in gas mileage.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    GV's resale doesn't drop like rocks. Even per ALG 3 stars is at least average.

    One thing helping that figure right now is that the new 7/100 warranty is fully transferable.

    Unlike Hyundai - only the 5/60 portion transfers. So a used Hyundai buyer is looking at a warranty that ends at 60k miles, while a used Zook would go all the way to 100k (within 7 years).

    That actually hurts Hyundai resale. You may as well stretch a buy a new Hyundai, then keep it, to enjoy the full warranty.

    Cheers. :shades:
  • xostnotxostnot Member Posts: 232
    According to www.healthycars.org, the Rav4, Tucson and Forester rank at the bottom of the list of suv's for toxic chemicals in the interiors, while the Grand Vitara ranks near the top. Something to consider, especially if you have kids.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Ah, yes, Subaru New Car Stench (TM), patent pending. :D

    It stinks for about a week or so. Just crack the windows a tad and it goes away in no time.
  • dogteam1dogteam1 Member Posts: 3
    Believe me, the idiots are not just in SUVs, Try regular cars, Vans, Trucks, Semi-Trucks, Motorcycles.... The list goes on and you must drive whatever with care and caution to the other person.....
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    since I visited this room. I owned a 2001 Ford Escape XLT v6 and it was a great vehicle. Remember me!? Escape went over 70,000 trouble free miles.. Wife owns a 2004 Mazda Tribute ES V6. Well, her Tribute now has 50,000 trouble free miles on it. I just brought it in to the shop to have the transmission fluid flushed, brake fluid flush and a power steering system flush. My wife loves this vehicle and doesn't have the slightest feeling to want to trade it in anytime soon. So, looks like this one is going to be in the family for a while. The Escape/Tribute are very good vehicles. :shades:
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,314
    talk about culture shock. it was snowing(a lot) so she upgraded her cheapest rental possible to a 4x4 jeep liberty.
    the usual comments started 'lots of cars off the road'.
    followed by 'this thing has a stupid lever i need to use to get into 4 wheel drive, and i had a hard time getting it to engage. i like that button in my escape'.
    she even had a sheriff stop her and give her a lecture about not driving during a 'level 3'.
    she told me she didn't even think the driving was that bad.
    i guess not having many snow plows messes things up, if you are not used to it.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • thimmakerthimmaker Member Posts: 33
    50k and 70k????? Their just getting broken in. I've got 110 k on my Chrysler Pacifica and haven't even thought about a different car. If you buy a good American car you can always expect it.
    George
  • bdymentbdyment Member Posts: 573
    I am curious. What button are you referring to in the Escape? There is no button for the shift to four wheel drive. Four Wheel Drive is automatic.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,314
    it's an '04 and actually i think it is a knob that you turn. i got confused with my explorer, which has buttons.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    It's not automatic, a'la CR-V?
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    I had a 2002 Escape and a 2005 Escape. For 2005 the 4WD system was "upgraded" to a fully automated electronic system. The original system for MY01-MY04 had a mechanical "Auto" mode and a 50/50 "Lock" mode, both of which were selectable via a knob on the center stack. The latter esentially locked the axles and sent 50% of the power to the front and 50% to the rear. You were not advised to use that option on dry pavement or at speeds above 65 IIRC.

    Personally I liked the old one better but the newer electronic system did work very well too.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Thanks, I had always assumed that the Escape had an automatic system.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think it's both, i.e. automatic engagement when there is slip, plus the ability to manually turn on 4WD on slippery surfaces only.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    I think it's both, i.e. automatic engagement when there is slip, plus the ability to manually turn on 4WD on slippery surfaces only.

    It only had both from 2001-2004. It is now fully automatic and fully electronic. Very much like the Haldex system but this one was developed by Ford IIRC. Like the Fusion, Taurus, and whatever other vehicles use it, it is said to be able to detect when wheel spin might occur and compensate for it by sending power where it is needed making the whole process invisible and seamless. My experience with the first gen version in our '05 Escape is that it did work very much like that but you could still feel the front tires slip ever so slightly from time to time in the soft stuff. Chirping the tires was all but impossible though. I guess the sensors which predict when wheel spin is imminent are programmed to work better on dry pavement.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Well, I used to be in this room quite often when I owned my 2001Ford Escape XLT V6. Wife liked this vehicle so much in 2004 we bought a Mazda Tribute V6 loaded too! I used to go round and round with the Honda CRV owners and Toyota owners about how they would tell me my Ford Escape was going to break down anyday. After using the Escape as a real SUV, towing my two water craft, visiting my favorite fishing spots in the Cascade range and 70,000 miles the Escape ran like a champ! No my wifes Tribute has hit just over 50,000 miles with no problems! These are very reliable vehicles by Ford/Mazda. In the next 2 years wife and I are talking about a Hybrid Escape or Tribute. ;)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I used to go round and round with the Honda CRV owners and Toyota owners about how they would tell me my Ford Escape was going to break down anyday.

    C'mon scape, you were the only one who constantly repeated that, not the other posters. I'm glad you had good short-term service out of your Escape; I've been urging my folks to check out the new Ford Taurus (they want a comfortable highway cruiser to supplant their economical Civic), so I'm not anti-Ford!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Good luck finding one, Escape hybrids are in very high demand right now. NYC uses them as cabs.
  • done37done37 Member Posts: 64
    Even in my little Podunck town here in Eastern Washington they are using them for municipality vehicles. The two Ford dealers here are grinning from ear to ear.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think a Caliber or Focus would be less costly. Maybe they want to appear more green.
  • done37done37 Member Posts: 64
    Thats true. For the most part they are meter readers, code enforcement, Etc.... I imagine they might need 4wd in some instances with surveying.
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