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I realize that I may be dreaming to wait for a $35K price for a Limited in the near future. I will not need mine until April and May. If I haven't found such a great price by then I guess I will pay what the going price is. In the meantime I will continue to read all of your informative comments.
rwelliott--As far as $35k for a LTD--no way amigo. That's right at or below INVOICE ($8-10k below MSRP), depending on how it's configured. Don't think you'll ever see a Toyota SUV ever going for invoice. If you want that price you'll have to look at the SR5.
Also--if the guy in Manhattan Beach told you he has a Limited in Burgundy waiting for you--he's lying, or extremely misinformed. No such vehicle. Limiteds only come in silver, white, thunder gray, and black (and maybe also green). Hope this helps.
Hope this helps
dealer. How do ya' find them? Also, if Dianne or Cliffy can order and ship, why not just buy
that way?
I'm still looking for a dealer to trust in the great midwest. Past buying experiences here were
not positive. Have no problems in the service bay, but sales training is NOT customer based.
Anyone have thoughts or advice?
at a dealership in No. SD County, about 1 month ago.
It does have some problems with the 4WD/VSC system, but we knew about this up front and the dealership is fixing the problem.
On another subject, anyone interested in GPS, checkout these ALPINE products:
http://www.alpine1.com/html/products.html
Very High End unit. Can hook up CD, DVD, VCR, GPS
TV Tuner, multiple Monitors.
one that says VSC OFF and one that says VSC TRAC.
Both of these lights are constantly on.
I noticed this during the test drive.
Also, I've had problems with the differential locking on the 4x4 mode. The red center light is constantly flashing. It never is solid on.
I don't think this is the way it is suppose to work. Eventually, the light turns off, and the
4 green wheel light are on.
The dealer is scheduled to look at this problem later this week.
I don't know about other vehicles.
I really enjoy driving this car, whenever the wife lets me.
While I always wish everyone good luck with their own endeavors, I also feel the need to speak up in regards to that post because I would recommend the board members not use that # with which to gauge their own deals by because it's a ridiculous price to hope for or expect.
I have sold a lot of Sequoias to folks in/around the San Diego area due to the fact that the supply vs. demand there seems to be keeping their area dealers at MSRP, and I have been a couple thousand off MSRP at best on Limiteds, and depending on model, as much as $1000-$1500 off MSRP for the SR5's BUT San Diego and Orance County dealers in CA seem to be turning people away for build orders and for discounts.
Good to hear there are new and happy owners here to share the "VIBES" and the experiences. I wonder what color(s) folks are liking? My largest request is silver, followed very closely by white. Especially in Limiteds. The cars with "GY" (side curtain airbags) are 90% of my inventory --- they are not a hard vehicle to come by here. Side airbags seem to be in almost everything except for the really basic model SR5's.
-Dianne
one that says VSC OFF and one that says VSC TRAC.
Both of these lights are constantly on.
I noticed this during the test drive.
Also, I've had problems with the differential locking on the 4x4 mode. The red center light is constantly flashing. It never is solid on.
I don't think this is the way it is suppose to work. Eventually, the light turns off, and the
4 green wheel light are on.
The dealer is scheduled to look at this problem later this week.
I don't know about other vehicles.
I really enjoy driving this car, whenever the wife lets me.
Now I'm the one who's shocked! I guess it's a regional difference thing. I used Toyota's dealer locate on the Net, checked out all the on-line inventory (that was about 40-50 cars today that I clicked on at three difference dealerships -- these are the cars that are either there, now, or due in the next few weeks), and exactly ONE had the side air bags. Bet you can guess which one! up -- the $46 I LTD 4wd. Want side air bags? There it is! But ... they **all** had Toyo Guard for $600 (worth $50?). LOL. I just learned about the "special relationship" Toyota has with the Southeast region, and Toyota seems to have a keen sense of what's hot. I'd order from you (I think you said shipping would be like $500), but I really don't think that would fly very well with this Southeast Toyota Distribution thing that's frankly somewhat scary. I'm just going to have to cool my heals and wait until this market cools a little more, and Toyota's willing to make what I want, in this region. Weirdly, it's not a money thing at all because the car I want built MSRP's for $35,700, which is I think a very fair value, given how much you get in the Sequoia.
MSRP. $37,955(DE Toyota figures) for $33,200 plus tax. Dealer did not have nor could they locate. Ended up ordering from Toyota without much of a stink. Fairly painless process and was surprised since after checking invoice pricing on Edmunds and Kelly Blue Book the purchase price was the same as invoice! Have made several calls to dealership and gave 1K deposit. Dealer told me this AM that they will call with approx ship date.
See...there is light at the end of the tunnel!
Good Luck to all.
As for the Toyota thing FAZTHANDS, I love mine! Granted, it only has 400 miles on it right now, but its sooooo nice. And if it performs anything like our old 4x4 P/U truck did, it will take a licking and keep on ticking! (175,000 miles with nothing but oil changes and brake pads...and maybe tires!) Toyota reputation is so incredible that I (and hubby) had no problem jumping into a first year rig. Have they ever made a product that sucked?? Not to my knowledge. Have your hub drive it and the rest will be history!
BTW, mine is Chestnut Pearle with the silver trim and you wouldn't believe all of the comments I'm getting on how beautiful the color is. It is really sharp.
Good luck!
Rosemarie
I tried MANY other dealers in MA before working with them and there was no comparison. I was very disappointed in the dealer in Kingston MA who I had done business with before, but was unwilling to be reasonable this time.
We had a lot of snow and very cold temperatures this weekend, but had no problems with handling or heat. The windows do fog up when the defroster is off, but they seemed to clear in a resonable time when you switch it back on. As for the rear window - be happy that the side mirrors are nice and big and are heated. The rear defrost is only OK, but it didn't matter since the rear wiper is next to useless. Forget about seeing out the back window when the mud is flying up here.
The interior is very comfortable and flexible. We took out 1 of the 3rd row seats to accomodate our gear, kids and dog and I was amazed at the room! I thought I might be giving uip some space and seating flexibility when I traded in the minivan, but this is so much better!
I did have one unusual problem though. When I went to tumble the middle row passenger side seat forward the handle snapped off in my hand - I was stunned ( so was the dealer). It was bitterly cold out, but this should not happen. I will keep everyone up to date with my parts ordering experience now. The new handle is supposed to be in by Thursday, but the dealer was a little skeptical since this is a new model.
For the price of the vehicle my expectations are pretty high and so far it has met or exceeded most of them. So far I am very happy with my purchase.
My major concern was inside space--was bought to replace a Grand Caravan--I have 3 kids with one almost 6 foot. All can fit in third seat including myself (I'm over 6 feet).
So far car has been great (and as someone else stated), when my wife lets me drive it! By the way, color is Forest Green and Gray--have had nice comments from people telling me they like the color scheme.
My major concern was inside space--was bought to replace a Grand Caravan--I have 3 kids with one almost 6 foot. All can fit in third seat including myself (I'm over 6 feet).
So far car has been great (and as someone else stated), when my wife lets me drive it! By the way, color is Forest Green and Gray--have had nice comments from people telling me they like the color scheme.
The 4wd capabilities of the Sequoia are the single most confusing aspect of the car. I received the detailed Sequoia brochure from Toyota and it was very unclear on the 4wd issue. I even saw a post this morning (at www.tundra solutions.com, a great site!) where the owner says he can't figure out the 4wd and he's got the manual! My understanding is that if you engage the lever that locks the differentials ("low" 4wd) that's what'll damage the drivetrain if the surface is not extremely slippery. But I also understand that you can drive the Sequoia in "high" 4wd mode all the time, at any speed. **Is that correct**?
Thanks for any help, as I just found a dealer in S.FL that WILL special order a SR5 with side airbags.
How the 4WD systems work:
Beginning with the 2000 model year Land Cruiser, Toyota began using a new 4WD system called ActiveTrac. This same system was incorporated into all 2001 4Runners and the new 2001 Sequoias. The same basic system has also been used in the Mercedes M Class as well as post ‘99 Humvees.
These systems operate in essentially the same way with a few exceptions. When engaged, you have three open differentials working for you (front, rear and center). Open differentials are extremely reliable and require very little maintenance. If you have equal traction at all 4 wheels, power is evenly divided between them all. If one wheel begins to slip, the open differentials begin to send all available power to that one wheel. Normally, this would be very bad. This is when a traction control system (TRACS) takes over. TRACS, applies brakes selectively to a slipping wheel. This braking action literally fools the differentials into sending power everywhere except the slipping wheel.
When you are in 2WD (in the Sequoia and Runner), you still have traction control working for you. Obviously, this only will send power left to right but this is better than nothing. If neither wheel can gain traction and you are heavy on the throttle, you may end up tripping the second part of TRACS. If the wheels continue to slip, there is a rev limiter that takes over. This slows your engine down to about 2200 RPM. This reduced engine speed, combined with the selective braking will normally allow you to move forward at a reduced rate of speed.
On all three vehicle, you have the option of locking the center differential. It is rare that anybody would ever need to do this. On the Land Cruiser and 4Runner, this is accomplished by bushing a button on your dash. On the Sequoia, you shift into 4 wheel low and shift the transmission into “L”. This turns off the TRACS computer and the VSC system. The vehicle is now in a conventional 4WD mode. All 4x4 Toyota trucks have operated in this condition. You should not ever use this mode on dry pavement as you will damage the drive system and tires.
The other part of this system is the VSC or vehicle skid control. VSC will selectively apply brakes and throttle to prevent understeer or oversteer. It works in both 2 and 4 wheel drive. This is a rather amazing system and does an incredible job of giving the driver control of the vehicle. Understeer is responsible for a large number of SUV rollovers and oversteer is very common on icy surfaces. The Sequoia will allow you to turn off the VSC but I see no reason to ever do this.
None of the above information has anything to do with the system on the Tundra or Tacoma. Those are typical part time systems. Under good road conditions, you are in 2WD with the rear axle getting all the power. Power is again split between the right and left wheels. An open differential will route all power to one wheel if it can turn faster than the other. If this happens, you engage the 4WD system. This sends exactly half the power to the front axle where another open differential splits power. Between the front and rear axle, you will normally be able to gain forward traction but because of the open differentials, there is a possibility that you wont. Open differentials are vastly more reliable and longer lasting than limited slip differentials which is why Toyota has stuck with them.
With this part time system, you can engage it up to 62 MPH (50 MPH if you don’t have a push button system) but it really isn’t appropriate to drive it at this speed. Because the front and rear axles are turning at exactly the same speed, you can damage the system on dry pavement. This system is only appropriate for more severe conditions.
The advantages to this type of 4WD is simplicity and speed of engagement. You are not relying on brake sensors for your 4WD system and it should be more rugged. Also, unlike the Sequoia and 4Runner, the system engages the moment you shift into 4WD. The other models take several seconds and feet to engage.
There is one problem I am having--has someone been able to find heavy duty rubber mats and cargo liner? I have the nice carpet Sequoia mats, but I want to cover them. Tried McNeil automotive, but was told that the mats are only available. The cargo liner won't be available until Feb. They also didn't know if the liner would be for behind second and third seats or third seat only. Anyone know where I can get right now the mats and liner?
Thanks for your help on this
My advice to the fellow in Florida who wondered about the value of the 4WD to him, I answered his question geographically. Bearing in mind there is no snow there, and the traction issue is easily handled with the VSC/TRAC that is standard on the cars.
As for the colors, nothing's changed since their debut, and the colors are easily found in the Sequoia brochures as well as via the internet.
Good to see a few other dealers starting to sell for a little less. Really.
-Di
dianne@earthlink.net
Can the Seq center diff also be locked in 4wd hi mode or just the low range? Also, it seems that in low range the VSC and TRAC turn off from what you said, is that right? Would this then make the Sequoia a 2wd with one wheel in front and one in back getting power but never more than 2 wheels getting power?
If this is true then low range seems somewhat pointless because the high range can take advantage of the Trac/Vsc to get power to any of the wheels, perhaps power to 3 out of 4 at one time or is this incorrect?
Dianne, 70 in 4WD in the Sequoia is nothing like 4WD in the Tundra or even last year's Runner. If you can drive a Land Cruiser over 70 MPH, you can drive the Sequoia at (or over) 70 MPH.
My advice: find a dealer (like dianne4toyota or cliffy1) who will get you what you want. Don't settle for anything less. You are the one who will pay for this truck. Yes, it's expensive vis-a-vis the domestic "competition" |LOL!| but the technology, safety and reliability of this Toyota are two generations ahead of the domestics.
Drive and I'm 93.881% sure you'll buy. We just won't buy from the dealers here in Shreveport.
Sorry so long. Hope I won't be flamed! ;}
"Here is why you should leave the Sequoia in full-time 4WD mode all of the time. Please read all 3 pages:
http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/need.html
http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/tractionturn2.html
http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/tractionturn4.html
As you can see, full-time 4WD will dramatically improve handling, especially in emergency maneuvers. This is all the more important with such a large and heavy truck like the Sequoia. Since the engine power is equally routed/distributed to all four wheels instead of just two, the traction control/stability control is much less likely to intervene since four tires have less torque (individually) and are less likely to be overwhelmed."
And then Cliffy in msg. 429 said:
"Because of how the Sequoia and 4Runner system work, you can use them at any speed. You must be below 62 to engage it but after it is engaged, you can drive as fast as is safe without damage to the system. You will probably loose a couple of miles per gallon."
So Diane, my question is, if you have more control in 4wd (per Drew's post) and Cliffy's correct that speed isn't an issue with 4wd in the Sequoia, then what's the big deal about cruisin' at 70 in 4wd? If something falls off a truck and I have to swerve at speed (and 70 isn't that unusual of a speed these days), wouldn't I be better off with the 4wd in full-time mode?
And, for the Toyota dealership in Santa Barbara, whine all you want. I can say anything I want to in private emails to *anyone* who emails me for help, and furthermore, I can quote whatever pricing MY market will bear.
--Dianne
dianne@earthlink.net
Drew
Host of Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
Rdster1, thanks for your explanation on the lack of SCAB's on the SR5; now I understand why SCAB's essentially don't exist on the SR5's handled by Southeastern Toyota. As I recently said, I *finally* found a local dealer who will order it my way, but it was a difficult challenge; most of the dealers were not interested in a build-to-suit.
Dianne and Cliffy, the #1 issue for me in a big rig like the Sequoia is safety, and the curtain/head airbags were a big selling point. Similarly, I was going to forego the 4wd until I read Drew's post (confirmed by Cliffy) that I will have better **emergency** handling regardless of the weather or surface conditions. I think I was misunderstood when I said flying down the highway at 70, I meant under perfect conditions, dry, great visibility, etc. From everything I've gotten from this rather complex 4wd discussion, it seems clear to me now that I will have better emergency handling with 4wd permanently engaged -- even under perfect conditions -- than I would with 2wd.
Drew, thanks for your links -- they were invaluable!
With that, I'm off to get the purchase order (and 4wd)! Thanks for all your help.
Congrats on the decision and enjoy the Sequoia 4WD.
thanks for your prompt response... But, were you not going to return this unit, or did I read your earlier message wrong ? And if you were going to return it, are you doing it based on quality, cost or simply lack of need for it ?
Will appreciate your response on the above
Neither the Hummer nor the Mercedes systems work the way you describe. Based on what I have read, I believe that it is true that VCS is disabled in low-low, but I don't believe that ActiveTrac is disabled. I think your description is in error on this point.
On a related point, you wrote "when you are in 2WD ... If the wheels continue to slip, there is a rev limiter that takes over. This slows your engine down to about 2200 RPM. This reduced engine speed, combined with the selective braking will normally allow you to move forward at a reduced rate of speed."
I think this explains what happened to foobarguy in post 357 when, as he said "I tried to merge into traffic from a stop, the traction control kicked in and stopped me dead due to the power down feature of the traction control".
Moral, don't spin all four wheels. Accelerate smoothly.
I also mentioned that I see very little reason to ever lock the center differential. I stand by that statement. If I owned it, I can't imagine a situation where I would lock the center differential. If I needed the low gear range, I would not want to lock it and would not shift my transmission into low.
Now, you are correct about one thing. The Mercedes does not do this. In fact, I don't think the Mercedes has the option to lock the center nor to shift into a low gear range.
If your right front wheel climbs a rock going uphill and you therefore lose traction on your left front and right rear (it's very common to be balanced diagonally in vehicles with limited suspension articulation like the stock Toyota trucks and SUV's), then without Active Trac (or front or rear lockers), you are stuck dead.
You could try it an experiment -- get in a Sequoia 4WD, and put the transfer case in low range and put the transmission in low. As you put it into low, what (if any) indicator lights change? Then start your right front wheel up onto a high curb or mound (at least a foot high) until the LF or RR tire is off the ground. Throw soapy water under the left front and right rear if you want. Then try to continue to accelerate up the incline.
Does the vehicle continue up, like a Hummer or Mercedes, or does it get stuck, spinning the LF and RR wheels aimlessly? Do you hear the Active Trac system clicking in to help? Try the same thing with a Landcruiser. Does the trusty LC get stuck?
I can't believe that the Toyota Engineers don't understand this.
You certainly don't need TRACS to shift power front to rear -- a locked center diff does that. But TRACS is not useless, because you need it to shift power from left to right (LF <--> RF, and LR <--> RR). If your left front is slipping, it applies the brake and sends powere to the right front. Same for the real. That's what it's suppose to do anyway. Ans I'll bet if you try it, it'll do it.
Now, in answer to the LC question, the ActiveTrac works all the time unless you hit the center differential lock button on the dash.
I guess in the absolute extreme, the Sequoia looses something but only if you need the A-Trac but must for some reason stay in 1st gear.