Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Most popular vehicles
Popular New Cars
- New Acura MDX
- New Acura RDX
- New Audi Q5
- New BMW 3 Series
- New BMW X3
- New Buick Enclave
- New Cadillac Escalade
- New Chevrolet Equinox
- New Chrysler 300
- New Dodge Challenger
- New Ford Edge
- New Ford Escape
- New Ford Expedition
- New Ford Explorer
- New Ford F-150
- New Ford Focus
- New Ford Mustang
- New Honda Accord
- New Honda Civic
- New Honda CR-V
- New Honda Fit
- New Honda Odyssey
- New Honda Pilot
- New Hyundai Elantra
- New Hyundai Santa Fe
- New Hyundai Sonata
- New Hyundai Tucson
- New Jeep Compass
- New Jeep Grand Cherokee
- New Jeep Wrangler
- New Mazda 3
- New Mazda 6
- New Mazda CX-5
- New Nissan Altima
- New Nissan Maxima
- New Nissan Rogue
- New Porsche Cayenne
- New Ram 1500
- New Subaru Crosstrek
- New Subaru Forester
- New Subaru Impreza
- New Subaru Outback
- New Tesla Model S
- New Tesla Model X
- New Toyota 4Runner
- New Toyota Camry
- New Toyota Corolla
- New Toyota Highlander
- New Toyota Prius
- New Toyota RAV4
- New Toyota Sienna
- New Toyota Tacoma
- New Volkswagen Jetta
- New Volvo XC60
- New Volvo XC90
Popular Used Sedans
- Used BMW 5 Series
- Used Chevrolet Impala
- Used Chevrolet Malibu
- Used Chrysler 200
- Used Dodge Charger
- Used Ford Fusion
- Used Ford Taurus
- Used Honda Accord
- Used Honda Civic
- Used Hyundai Elantra
- Used Hyundai Sonata
- Used Tesla Model S
- Used Toyota Camry
- Used Toyota Corolla
- Used Volkswagen Jetta
Popular Used SUVs
- Used Acura MDX
- Used Acura RDX
- Used Ford Edge
- Used Ford Explorer
- Used Honda CR-V
- Used Honda Pilot
- Used Hyundai Santa Fe
- Used Jeep Compass
- Used Lincoln Navigator
- Used Mazda CX-5
- Used Nissan Rogue
- Used Subaru Crosstrek
- Used Subaru Forester
- Used Tesla Model X
- Used Volvo XC90
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
The S type Jag is not being made any longer. I believe that it shared the LS platform. It was never offered on a Ford model other than the discontinued 40K T Bird roaster. Now the X type Jaguar was based on a very badly modified CD132 Ford platform. As for the Lincoln LS ,the reason why it was discontinued was because the platform that it shared with the Jaguar S type was deemed too expensive for a Lincoln . Ford would have had to add about 4-5 K to the list of the Lincoln LS to make the LS profitable and that was definitely not in keeping with Lincoln's value pricing strategy. That's why the LS was dropped and we got the Mazda based platform MKZ.
Yes, the S Type and the LS were very much differentiated, even though on the same architecture. They did not share a windshield or any glass, any body panel or interior panel. Park them side by side and there was no way to see a family relationship, such as how the interiors of the LS and Thunderbird shared parts. They had different engines.
Lincoln intends to get back to that sort of differentiation. The MKC will not share greenhouse parts with the Escape, as the MKZ still does with the Fusion. That sort of "subterfuge" is done going forward, except for a model like the Navigator, where most manufacturers and consimers find it acceptable for these really big pigs to share some body panels and glass.
the LS and the Jaguar Type S shared some engines I believe (the V6) and transmissions ( a troublesome unit).
The engine blocks were the same but the top ends were unique to each mfr. The tranny was the same and did have some issues.
Lincoln is not differentiated from a Ford if they both share the same platforms. I bet that one will see similarities in any Lincoln model with a comparable Ford model simply because a FWD platform's hard points will dictate how much style differentiation can be attained. That is one of the pitfalls of platform sharing . Another is, that performance wise, the Lincoln when pushed to its limits is when the shortcomings of its Ford platform will show regardless of whatever suspension tuning the Lincoln may have to try to hide that fact. As long as Lincoln is on its value pricing strategy there is no reason for Lincoln to be produced on anything but a Ford platform which in turns means that there is nothing really special about a Lincoln that one cannot have with its lower priced Ford counterpart. As long as selling around 75 -85 k units a year is acceptable for Ford to make a profit on Lincoln then there is no reason to change strategy .
There is no reason Ford can't do both. Shared platforms on the lower end and more unique platforms on the high end. They're just starting on the lower end because that's where the volume and the profits are and it's the easiest. They're obviously taking the Audi/Lexus approach which of course is perfectly ok for them but when Lincoln does it then it's all wrong.
"Chief Engineer Elaine Bannon said buyers will experience full "win-win" in the switch from V8 to V6 power. The EcoBoost engine will generate at least 370 horsepower, compared to the relatively mellow 310 hp coming from today's 5.4-liter V8. Torque also will be substantially upgraded from the current V8's 365 pound-feet to "at least" 430 lb-ft with the new Navigator's EcoBoost V6.
Backed by a standard six-speed automatic transmission, Lincoln also is promising the EcoBoost V6 will deliver a meaningful fuel economy gain over the combined 16 mpg (14 mpg city/20 mpg highway) the current rear-wheel-drive Navigator achieves and the combined 15 mpg (13 city/18 highway) for four-wheel-drive Navigators."
2015 Lincoln Navigator Restyled, Shifts to EcoBoost Power
It is too bad that due to tight budgets and lack of foresight, Lincoln is in the position once again of changing the front clip, rear styling details and interior of the 1998 Navigator, introduced in fall of 1997. 2015 will make 18 model years that Ford/Lincoln has used the same hard points, same windshield and pillars, same doors, etc. Although the upgrades are both significant and welcome (especially the Ecoboost), it also seems like Lincoln is throwing in the towel on trying to dominate the large luxury SUV class as it did in the first few years of Navigator sales. Now the model is more an afterthought.
Maybe that is ok, given how the class as a whole has shrunk and will continue to do so. Still, the Escalade, which early on had to play catch-up, has issued a completely new body with every generation, and that played at least a small part in capturing sales away from Lincoln. That a very expensive Lincoln SUV still uses the same windshield and front door glass of the late 1990s F150 may not be recognized by many, but the subliminal effect is that the thing looks old compared to most new vehicles.
That said, IMHO, that front clip is one of the best interpretations so far of the split wing grill. That alone should bump sales over the previously odd-looking front end.
In the end though, this update means that the Navigator is saddled with its original 1990s look for several more years to come.
Not exactly, Gregg. This is a timing issue. This refresh was ready to go previously but Ford had not yet decided if they were even going to keep the Navi and Expy. They were waiting to see what happened with the 2015 F150 since going forward they would be sharing that platform if they stayed around. Now that they've been given the green light for a new Expy and Navi on the 2015 F150 platform they went ahead and released the refresh. It's not a huge improvement but it is a considerable improvement over the current one. More importantly it will eliminate the old 4.6L and 5.4L engines allowing them to be retired and providing a fuel economy boost for CAFE.
If nothing else this will provide a nice upgrade for current owners keeping them in the Lincoln fold until the all new one is ready in 3 years. This isn't exactly a growing market segment.
Rumor has it the all new Navi will go after Range Rover at a much higher price point, obviously with the aluminum body and other F150 improvements.
Glad to hear that the new Expedition/Navigator is coming in a couple of years. This refresh should help current low sales from going down to nothing, and if it is going to take 2-3 more years for a fully revamped Nav, then this refresh is crucial. Meanwhile, even it will still elicit catcalls among the auto press comments, it will have the Ecoboost (more power, better mileage) and it will finally have the family look.
Going after Land Rover or Range Rover would be awesome, but even if it ends up doing an Escalade and using F150 body parts, it will still be an improvement by light years. It could leapfrog over Escalade if it has a completely unique body like the MKC is getting.
It desperately needs a new interior. The Escalade is much nicer still. But this isn't a big seller and will do just fine until the new one arrives.
Lincoln has now seen some sales increases with the MKZ and MKC (although the MKX still outsells the C).. Cadillac for all its well received vehicles is struggling to stay even. Cadillac has grabbed all its low hanging fruit, and now Lincoln is doing the same.
The luxury arena is becoming more and more crowded with many more models but not that many more buyers overall. Cadillac will continue its onslaught, despite hitting a recent sales wall. The CT6 will aim for BMW 7, Mercedes S Class and Audi A8 among others. There is talk Cadillac may develop two models ABOVE the CT6, which means it may eventually want to play in Maserati and even Bentley territory. Two more crossovers are planned to bracket the next generation SRX (which will become the XT4 or something like that).
Some of the Cadillac slowdown must be attributed to some serious price increases in the past few years. Cadillac intends to stay with a more expensive CTS (probably to become the CT4), rather than cut prices to increase sales. Overall, I think their strategy is to emulate Audi, BMW and Mercedes, all of whom offer dozens of models for sale, rather than the handful that the Americans offer.
Lincoln needs to get the new MKX here ASAP and they don't need me to tell them that. The new MKS is unfortunately still two model years down the road. But that leaves more time to get it right. The MKT also needs a total redesign or a deep six.
To have gone from the concept to the enormous fat pig station wagon reality was an unfathomable decision. But I have beaten that pig to death too often. Sorry.
What do you guys think of the never built MKL concept?
In any event, every time Lincoln slowly introduces a new model like the MKC, you see a bunch of other solid entries...Lexus NX, Audi Q3, Mercedes GLA, Land Rover Discovery Spor (LR2 replacement)t, the proposed BMW front drive X1...it's competitive out there!
Meanwhile, off topic, did you notice that Chrysler Group came within 10,000 units of Ford Motor Company sales in September. How did they do that? Dodge saw a slight decrease in sales, but Jeep, Maserati and Ram soared, while Fiat and Chrysler also saw increased sales.
Of course enthusiasts will applaud them for building great vehicles - until they go bankrupt again.
Lincoln is still a slow work in progress. There are a couple of new vehicles but not sure what they will be yet. Rumors of a Mustang based Lincoln persist but nothing tangible to report. MKC is still supply constrained. One dealer says the AWD models are turning over in 4 days and FWD in 7 days. We'll have to see where sales even out - I'm guessing at least 3K/month and maybe as high as 5K.
I think they either had some internal problems and/or had to make some directional changes which is delaying some projects. It's also obvious Ford is not willing to write Lincoln a blank check so progress will be slower but more profitable in the end.
Yes it's a little frustrating but they're at least holding their own with the MKC and MKZ until the new stuff does get here.
It looks like Ford is about to re-enter the supercar realm with a GT successor that will also race at LeMans. If so I would expect Lincoln to get some high performance vehicles of its own.
That helped boost Lincoln’s total sales 7.8% on a DSR basis to 7,257, the brand’s highest September volume since September 2010’s 7,510."
Funny how SUVs keep saving car companies (Porsche anyone?)
Lincoln Posts Best September in Four Years, but Ford Declines (Wards Auto)
The Stutze Motor Car Co would send a Pontiac Grand Prix chassis to Italy and have a kit car body and interior attached to it and then charge over 35K for what was and still is the world' s most expensive Pontiac Grand Prix .
Go figure.
Lincoln can do RWD too but not on models like the MKC. Not necessary and too expensive by comparison. They'll need too share the platform with multiple models and a few Fords too. And sell them globally.
Yes, I saw that rumor in TTAC.they also said that the new Taurus did not test well in clinics and that it may be dead in the water.
Ford is certainly keeping all this tight to the vest whatever they're planning. Full sized sedans are a dwindling market for sure so they wouldn't be losing much if they ditched it altogether for more exciting products elsewhere in the lineup.
There is supposed to be a Taurus on CD4 to be sold in China. I think China is going to be providing the added volume to make a lot of things more viable than they would have been before. We'll see. I'm still cautiously optimistic about Lincoln's future direction but I'm as tired as anyone of waiting around for it.
CUVs are the hot ticket right now and can also command premium prices. When you're selling Navigators and Escalades for $75K there is a lot of room for a $60K CUV.
I heard Explorers are going for $50K. That leave more room for more expensive platforms (but not bespoke single vehicle platforms - that's still way too expensive. Something Cadillac apparently hasn't figured out).
I'm sure GM isn't blind to platform sharing, since they did it for decades across brands for decades before GM's bankruptcy, and also since the bankruptcy. For example, the next Chevy Camaro will share Cadillac's ATS and CTS platform, as will the next Impala SS (or whatever the sedan that's currently imported from Australia will be called. Also, I've read that Buick may introduce a model using this platform.
An important strategic difference between Cadillac and Lincoln is that several years ago, before the bankruptcy, Cadillac decided to convert most of its new platforms to RWD, to better compete with BMW, Mercedes, Lexus and Infiniti. The XTS sedan and SRX crossover are exceptions, since they still ride on GM's old, but updated, FWD platforms (similar to what Toyota does with its ES sedan and RX crossover). Interestingly, Chrysler and Dodge also converted their 300, Charger and Challenger to RWD several years ago. All offer AWD versions, of course.
Lincoln, by contrast, has taken the Audi and Acura approach, by adapting mass-market Ford Division platforms to its luxury brand. Besides different styling, features, warranties and dealerships, Audi and, to a lesser extent Acura, differentiate their luxury brands from their mass-market VW and Honda brands by greater emphasis on AWD (Quattro and SH-AWD, respectively).
It should be noted that Cadillac's newer RWD models have gotten better reviews than Lincoln's newer models. The question that remains unanswered is whether Lincoln will be able to succeed, as Audi has. Acura's crossovers and minivan are successful, but its sedans remain a work-in-progress. Thus far, Lincoln has been less successful than Acura, across model lines.
If Cadillac's strategy is ultimately successful, China, and globalism in general, will play an important role, by making greater economies of scale possible.
While Cadillac's RWD models have gotten excellent reviews from the automotive press, consumers haven't shown the same enthusiasm, if you go by sales. Most BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus buyers don't cross-shop Cadillac in the U.S. Cadillac lost its "standard of the world" image decades ago, but aims to eventually re-establish its reputation as the leading luxury brand. It'll be very difficult, but not impossible. Lincoln, which was once the #2 luxury brand, has been even less successful than Cadillac in the marketplace.
Based on their current strategies, I think Cadillac will continue to outsell Lincoln. I don't know about profitability since, as far as I know, GM and Ford don't disclose profitability by brand.
You have to know your market. It appears Lincoln is ready to enter the $50K+ market and probably with some RWD/higher performance offerings but they started with higher volume cheaper vehicles like the MKC and I'm sure they will use a shared platform with multiple vehicles reducing development costs whereas Cadillac seems to want to start with a dedicated platform and extend it later. Which might be ok if GM's margins were huge and they were flush with cash and they weren't coming out of a recent bankruptcy. I think they're mortgaging the farm on these new products that don't appear to have a really good business case for long term profitability.
Lincoln's plan isn't as sexy but it's way more sound financially speaking. Ford says Lincoln is profitable today which isn't hard to believe considering the amount of platform sharing and higher ATPs.
I think the answer is somewhere between where Lincoln and Cadillac are today and most of the growth will come from the Asian brands not the German brands.
"...the new Uber sedan is getting its own new platform...ELR is a complete boondoggle. The lowly MKZ is outselling both the ATS and CTS last time I checked and it's on a much cheaper platform."
You make a good point regarding ROI, but let's remember that the strategic decisions that we're discussing here weren't made by Mary Barra. let's give this new CEO a chance to prove herself. Also, with GM's continuing success in China the RWD platforms may yet turn out to be a wise long-term ROI strategic deecision.
Are you sure the uber sedan will have it's own platform? I read that it'll share the ATS/CTS platform, but you can't always believe what you read.
I agree that the ELR is a flop. It's gotten decent reviews, but it's overpriced, even after the cost cut.
It's interesting that the MKZ is outselling the ATS and CTS combined.
Maybe Lincoln will find a way to utilize the new Mustang platform. It would make sense.
Lincoln MKZ 26,769
Cadillac CTS 22,921
Cadillac ATS 22,535
So individually the Lincoln outsells each; taken together, it comes up well short.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
Yes, MKZ slightly outsells individual ATS or CTS this year so far, but so what? In September, Cadillac sold 2239 ATSs and 2282 CTSs (which are more expensive than MKZs), while Lincoln sold 2176 MKZs. Obviously both Cadillacs are selling at least as well as MKZ and there are TWO of them. So this at least doubles Cadillac sales compared to Lincoln.
In 2013, Cadillac sold 38,319 ATSs and 32,343 CTSs. MKZ sold 32,361 units in 2013. Yea, MKZ. A better showing than the previous generation, but this is a difficult market with tons of excellent cars in it.
Now let's talk XTS v. MKS. September: XTS sold 1979. Not so good. MKS sold 457. Laughable.
We could also compare Escalade v. Navigator sales. No comparison. Or SRX v. MKX.
The point is, Cadillac, like Lincoln, is trying to come back from a huge fall in the luxury arena. Meanwhile, new and good luxury models are being added worldwide so quickly that even when admittedly excellent products like the ATS and CTS barely keep pace. You already see and acknowledge that "old Lincoln" designed the MKZ. And it didn't follow it up with three more products within a year like the competition now does. Choices are perhaps far too many, but Audi, Mercedes and BMW found success by offering many more models than anyone else.
Cadillac may not succeed (although they have a leg up in the market that really matters now: China), but they are giving it the old college try. If they build momentum in Asia, it does not matter if sales are not that spectacular in the US. This is why Buick is still around. It is hot in China.
Lincoln, as you agree, has been slow slow slow for years. The best news so far is the CUV proposed off the next Ford Explorer, which will be RWD. I have hopes for Lincoln now. But I have no need to denigrate what Cadillac is doing at the same time. Except for the ELR. Geez. What a stupid effing thing. If they were going to charge that much for it, they either needed to make it a four door, or better yet, a four door jacked up a couple inches and called a CUV.
It's easy to overlook the business aspect if you like the vehicles. And the vehicles themselves are fine. I just don't think they're being smart about where they're spending their money these days and in the long run it's going to hurt them.
Lincoln has dithered for years and years trying to do a luxury brand without investing gobs of money. If Cadillac had taken Lincoln's route, I'd bet a great deal of money they would have Lincoln level sales now. This is an environment where every manufacturer has to claw their way to any new sales conquests against established brands. Look at the Audi Q3. It is just introduced and already trouncing the sales of the MKC, a vehicle that is at least as good. (Of course Ford needs to stop putting 6 speed transmissions in everything when the other luxury brands have 7, or more usually 8 or 9 now.)
You have argued for years that Cadillac is using a poor business plan. I respectfully disagree. Cadillac's fortunes and reputation had fallen as far as Lincoln's, and it has taken them many years and lots of investment to earn back their respect. That they have now done. Cadillac may not recover to be the "Standard of the World," but they do understand that the competition is a moving target moving very fast. Sales are not as good as they would like, but usually 2 to 3 times what Lincoln moves. Plus, no one is heaping any accolades upon Lincoln vehicles after all these years of changing tactics.
Even the well received MKC is merely competitive with a lot of fine vehicles in that category (GLA, NX, Q3, etc). MKC isalso borrowing some sales from MKX, as happens with any brand. Should they combine the two? I think not.
Don't attack Cadillac for doing things that improve its reputation, keep sales from sliding further, and increase its chances of domination in China. Let's hope the tight-lipped Lincoln team is now going their own way, with some real surprises in store. A RWD/AWD CUV could really give it a leg up.
My brief love affair with Lincoln is long since history. It's interesting to watch from afar.
I'll never own another American-built vehicle.
You think you know what will keep Cadillac in business long term better than they do. You have no inside information, only a strongly held opinion.
Cadillac already manufactures the XTS and ATS in China, with the CTS to start soon. Which Lincolns are manufactured there? China slaps big tariffs on imported cars.
I have no idea if Cadillac's plan will work out long-term. You don't either. But the companies doing the best in the luxury arena are pouring huge sums into new models all the time. Luxury sales are profitable. Audi is a cash cow for VW.
Meanwhile, you think Cadillac would be better off with an aging and less expensive previous generation CTS, rather than pushing ahead with model range expansion and moving upmarket. It is better to aim high and miss than to aim low and hit.
Of course some brands aren't going to survive in this changing world. Lincoln has proven that cautious gets you nowhere fast. China consumers have a lot of say in how this will go down.
New platforms are expensive. New platforms for one vehicle that cannot possibly sell more than a few hundred vehicles per month can only be justified with exorbitant prices which Cadillac buyers have not shown they're willing to pay. Look at the XLR. Look at what happened to CTS sales when the price went up. There are certain brands that can charge $100K+. Cadillac and Lincoln aren't among them. Ford understands that. It's not a wise investment of money or resources.
Look at the ELR. How much did it cost to develop that one-off vehicle? How much did they make on that boondoggle?
Cadillac could do well in the $40K - $80K market with the right products and platforms. Crossovers are hot right now and they only have one? Lincoln is planning to have 3 all built on shared platforms. Lincoln has one hybrid now and will probably have them on multiple models under the "green label" initiative. Why? Because they sell like hotcakes. Cadillac decides to do the ELR. Which one makes money?
Please explain the advantage of replacing a single vehicle selling 5K/month with 2 new vehicles on a new platform that together only sell 5K/month? Why would you build a new platform for a $100K+ uber sedan with potential sales of 200/month max instead of adding another crossover that could be sold for $50K-$60K and be built on an existing platform and could sell thousands per month? Why would you build ELR that nobody wants instead of adding a hybrid option to ATS, SRX or CTS?
China will add a lot of volume for both Caddy and Lincoln but I don't think it's that much different from the rest of the world.
You trot out the same argument every time. You ignore when I counter your points and keep repeating what you said before. Ok, an old CTS that couldn't possibly sell 5K month would sell 5K amonth because you say it would. Selling 2500 ATSs at previous CTS prices plus 2500 CTSs at higher prices than before is not better than sticking with one model that is fading? Ok, you are right.
Sure.go on about the ELR. That proves you dont even read much of what I write, because I beat you to that one.
And if you think Cadillac will ignore the CUV market, think again.
I have hope for Lincoln now. I have almost none that you will ever agree to disagree or concede a single point. So once again, I am out of here and you can have at the last words. Heck I could probably write them for you.
2007 57,029
2008 58,774
2009 38,817
2010 45,656
2011 55,042
2012 46,979
2013 32,343
ATS sales:
2012 7,008
2013 38,319
CTS sales were fine until the ATS showed up and took away sales. 55K in 2011. No reason to think it would have dropped if the ATS had not arrived especially with a refresh.
And let's say Cadillac is making slightly more gross profit on ATS plus CTS than they were with the old CTS alone. How much do you think it cost them to develop that new platform and then develop 2 brand new vehicles off that platform? A new vehicle can cost $1B. A new platform can cost 6 times that much. Even if you mitigate the platform costs by sharing it with Chevy you're still looking at $4B minimum for ATS and CTS.
At an average gross profit of $5K for 60k vehicles per year that's only $2.4B profit over 8 years. By that time you have to re-invest even more in new vehicles and a platform update.
You just lost $1.6B. But that's ok because the media loves it, right?
That's the problem with building new platforms and multiple vehicles without significant volume increases.
What do you think the math would look like for an uber sedan that can't possibly sell more than 200 vehicles per month?
The shopping traffic was the highest it has been all year, Caldwell said.
She said that the segments poked more fun of McConaughey than Lincoln, so they didn't come across as disparaging the brand."
Lincoln ad spoofs elevate brand's exposure (autonews.com)
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6