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Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

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Comments

  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    edited September 2015
    Well, Snowden was gov stuff. But China is outright stealing western company designs, patents, software, and employee data for commercial purposes as well. Don't think its the same. btw: I think Snowden went well beyond whistleblower when he conveniently went to China and Russia to dump. I think the guy went traitor and maybe someday he will find out what the old Soviets did to foreign traitors that went there for asylum once they were no longer useful to Big Brother! It's kind of like thinking that if you give a competing business some inside info about your company, they will want to hire you. No one wants a traitor long term.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Oh I'm sure old man Kissinger is beaming that he and Nixon gave us such a gift with China détente. Objectively though, I can't tie him to the foolishness of Nixonomics. How a smart guy like Nixon could surround himself with such a group of rummies I'll never understand. I think George W and Obama may not have learned from history ;)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Comparing surveillance to commercially based espionage and theft is a tough one to defend. Especially when comparing to a market that has blocked internet access and nothing close to freedom of speech. Anyone saying it is hard to complain about Chinese IP theft is either a guilted apologist or gets part of their meal ticket from that market. Take your pick. Makes me wonder.

    Diesel Cruze isn't a thing in China, but they love VWs, which might be fitting as China seems to sometimes want to emulate 1930s Germany. Hard to complain about them though!
    stever said:


    It's kind of hard to complain to China about stealing our intellectual property. Thank you Edward Snowden. (link)

    I just hope Chevy didn't steal code from VW for the Cruze diesel. ;)

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Nixon was smart,but arrogant. Kind of like Kissinger. The former was so arrogant he thought he could get away with it. The latter is smart enough to dodge accountability.

    When it comes to who pulls the strings, Dubya and Barry aren't too far apart.

    berri said:

    Oh I'm sure old man Kissinger is beaming that he and Nixon gave us such a gift with China détente. Objectively though, I can't tie him to the foolishness of Nixonomics. How a smart guy like Nixon could surround himself with such a group of rummies I'll never understand. I think George W and Obama may not have learned from history ;)

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "Snowden claims that the US had been hacking China and Hong Kong “for years”. The list of targets is said to have included businesses, universities and civilian computers, as well as more expected operations like government offices and bureaus." (PC Tech, my emphasis)

    Still think it's hard to complain when your own hands aren't clean.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    edited September 2015
    Even if the traitor is telling the truth, was our gov giving the info to our US corporations like China is doing for their industry? Given how lawyered up the US is, I highly doubt it. China's hacking is also much more diverse than just defense department related industry. So I think it goes well beyond [non-permissible content removed] for tat stuff here. They are thief's, plain and simple.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I dunno, sure makes you wonder doesn't it?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Hmm, an article from 2013 with no data released since. Seems legit, I'd be curious to know about anything that went beyond simply seeing what the IP inhalers had already taken.

    I guess some think it is hard to complain when some just really want those cheap goods, no matter the costs, both internal and external.
    stever said:

    "Snowden claims that the US had been hacking China and Hong Kong “for years”. The list of targets is said to have included businesses, universities and civilian computers, as well as more expected operations like government offices and bureaus." (PC Tech, my emphasis)

    Still think it's hard to complain when your own hands aren't clean.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited September 2015
    I'm not searching a zillion wikileaks pages for a smoking gun. :D

    @Berri makes a lot of valid points, but it sure looks like "everybody" does it.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    If there was a smoking gun, we'd know it by now. Those who bravely defend opening Pandora's Box would let us all know.

    I can't wait to see the next copycar. Wasn't Geely or Chery supposed to be here by now?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited September 2015
    I think it was a Chery I saw at the Detroit Show, oh, four years ago I guess. Any day now....
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Here’s what your foreign cars have done to Michigan (Opinion from the Washington Post)
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Give it 5 years and you'll see Geeleys coming out of that plant for North American consumption.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    5 years? That might be a little soon.

    I wonder if they'd market a blatant copycar.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I think they will use the plant as a launching point for one of their entry level cars - maybe the MK Cross SUV.

    If you look at their lineup, there aren't what looks to be any copycat styling. It's boring but not copycat:

    http://global.geely.com/vehicles.php
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    I see a few that heavily borrow from Toyota, at least in profile (GC7, MK, Emgrand 8, maybe more).

    Material and structural quality will be interesting, as I don't believe these sell in the first world, with its pesky regulations and expectations. With used cars being so good these days, I don't know if I could need a new one that badly.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    edited September 2015
    Well there are only so many styling cues so it's inevitable there will be some similarity.

    As for the latter point, they own Volvo and we all know the reputation they have for material and structural quality. One of the their reasons for buying Volvo was to gain access to their engineering prowess and understanding of western tastes. All the latest Geelys have had much Swedish input.

    What people forget is that not everything the Chinese touch is junk. Having had experience with their manufacturing capability, I've learned that if one specifies low grade, they make low grade. If someone specifies high grade, they make high grade. Don't forget that your E Class is full of Chinese parts that were specified by Daimler to a high spec. Further, all those E, C, and GLK classes being made in China are not junk.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Yes, as the Chinese auto industry has no history of blatantly ripping off other designs, it's all coincidence. Just similarity.

    I see nothing showing Geelys and Volvos share anything in engineering, design, or assembly. The only reason for buying Volvo was for their engineering and presence in western markets - when someone is being dumped on the market, a time comes when it is easier to buy than copy. Sure China can build competent things, but cars and laptops or phones are different things.

    The E is still ~75% German content, ones for first world consumption not assembled by a leading IP/social/environmental offender. "Full of" might be hyperbole from sources that profit from the relationship with our most favored "partner".
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "Good artists copy, great artists steal."

    >The E is still ~75% German content, ones for first world consumption not assembled by a leading IP/social/environmental offender.

    That would be Volkswagen?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Comparing VW to our most favored "partner" has to either be facetious humor, or something less amusing.

    Of course, some just want cheap goods, no matter the externalities.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    edited September 2015
    Give it 5 years and you'll see Geeleys coming out of that plant for North American consumption.

    Many moons ago we had a thread on Edmunds about "Would you buy a Chinese car?" or "Chinese cars - look out, they're on their way," or a title to that effect. I've plopped a picture of a red Geely GC5 on my icon page. Nice look. Italian styling right from a famous Italian designer. I'm going to be interesting-Americans will buy Chinese cars. I'm thinking of Korean Kia right now. People still hate them but I noticed a spring in my 1999 Kia Sephia's step that stuck out to me.

    Sure, you can find a better car. But for value I don't really think Kia can be beat. And factor in Peter Schreyer's body designing and an engineering team that can build value cars that last and you've got a car company worthy of being a true sponsor of the NBA.

    Take a look at Geely's website. They've got some motion going there. I'm wondering what kind of motion that might be 'round about now.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    fintail said:

    Yes, as the Chinese auto industry has no history of blatantly ripping off other designs, it's all coincidence. Just similarity.

    I see nothing showing Geelys and Volvos share anything in engineering, design, or assembly. The only reason for buying Volvo was for their engineering and presence in western markets - when someone is being dumped on the market, a time comes when it is easier to buy than copy. Sure China can build competent things, but cars and laptops or phones are different things.

    The E is still ~75% German content, ones for first world consumption not assembled by a leading IP/social/environmental offender. "Full of" might be hyperbole from sources that profit from the relationship with our most favored "partner".

    Yes, some Chinese automakers have blatantly ripped off other manufacturers. IMHO, those are never going to become world class manufacturers.

    As for Geely and Volvo sharing engineering, I give you CEVT - China Euro Vehicle Technology SA - a Goteburg based company whose sole focus has been to design the CMA architecture to underpin the new B and C segment Volvos and Geelys. CMA will be used for a Geely crossover to come out in 2016 and for the new Volvo 40 series due in 2018.

    The words "full of" were mine and a poor choice. I should have said that your E contains Chinese made parts and AFAIK, it's not having an effect on it's quality nor reliability
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I remember my dad making fun of VWs and their "lawn mower" engines back in the 60s. Same story by other people about Korean cars. No reason to expect less from the Chinese automakers - the good ones will compete just fine.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    No reason to expect less from the Chinese automakers - the good ones will compete just fine.

    Just how many American automotive manufacturing and engineering jobs are we taking away by heading down to our local Kia dealer and buying a Kia? With parts swapping and buying and selling and a colossal schmearage of shared profit snarking worldwide especially since the late 1990's, I'm thinking we're taking some-but not a killer blow amount.

    Especially with Uncle Sam around to help - the Korean government helps the Korean carmakers out, too. Right?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The bigger issue to me is open access - we let your cars in, you let ours in. Let the market decide who's good enough to stay in the ball game.

    The US can start by killing the Chicken Tax.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Yeah, let's reward China's behavior and corruption by letting their cars in the US on favorable import terms. Frankly, I think we need to reassess all of these trade agreements because by and large they seem to be lopsided against the US. It's not just tariffs, but all of the rules, behavior and bureaucracy these countries throw at American company products to impede their distribution and sale - And in general, Asian countries seem to be the worst in this area.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    What if those cars were made here in America?
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    edited September 2015
    Yeah, let's reward China's behavior and corruption by letting their cars in the US on favorable import terms. Frankly, I think we need to reassess all of these trade agreements because by and large they seem to be lopsided against the US. It's not just tariffs, but all of the rules, behavior and bureaucracy these countries throw at American company products to impede their distribution and sale - And in general, Asian countries seem to be the worst in this area.

    Ya just made me wonder, berri, if there's not some buying off corruption going on in the upper echelon of the U.S. government (from the foreign governments) that cause this lopsidedness. :s

    Could it be a duh, even?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Robr - I'm alright with that as long as the US China plants are given the same terms they force on GM and Ford plants over there. But I'll bet if we did that those plants will not be forthcoming B)

    sephia, I don't know if it's payola or just this goofy attitude of some American elitists that we need to help other countries even if it is at the expense of Americans. Plus Washington has been totally dysfunctional for some time now - both parties.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454

    Ya just made me wonder, berri, if there's not some buying off corruption going on in the upper echelon of the U.S. government

    Well, if you assume that the US and Germany have a lot in common, sure.

    "In 2013, Germany was reported to have gone “rogue” in attempts to sideline greener car regulations that would impact its huge car industry, threatening Ireland over its Euro bail-out, Hungary with car plant closures and the Netherlands with cuts in plant investment." (The Guardian)

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Germans had a history of innovation even then. South Korea engaged in long legal joint ventures before starting on their own. Not exactly apples to apples, either industrially or politically.
    stever said:

    I remember my dad making fun of VWs and their "lawn mower" engines back in the 60s. Same story by other people about Korean cars. No reason to expect less from the Chinese automakers - the good ones will compete just fine.

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    edited September 2015
    Geely has a copycar history, including the faux RR Phantom and a faux MB W203, and other big names like Chery, JAC, and BYD also do it without shame.

    CEVT sounds like a simple way to absorb IP rather than steal it. Doesn't sound like a lot of sharing, being based where the bought out entity was/is located. Who is gaining what?

    Everything of any complexity these days has a Chinese part, largely due to free/unfair trade. Not all of these parts are capable of crippling a system even if they fail. A handful of parts aren't terribly relevant. Most of these parts are just fine, just like the computers we all use to post here. But, we have no real choice, and computers and cars are different animals.






    Yes, some Chinese automakers have blatantly ripped off other manufacturers. IMHO, those are never going to become world class manufacturers

    As for Geely and Volvo sharing engineering, I give you CEVT - China Euro Vehicle Technology SA - a Goteburg based company whose sole focus has been to design the CMA architecture to underpin the new B and C segment Volvos and Geelys. CMA will be used for a Geely crossover to come out in 2016 and for the new Volvo 40 series due in 2018.

    The words "full of" were mine and a poor choice. I should have said that your E contains Chinese made parts and AFAIK, it's not having an effect on it's quality nor reliability
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Of course it does. Uncle Sam helps in that area, too.

    <

    Especially with Uncle Sam around to help - the Korean government helps the Korean carmakers out, too. Right?

  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    fintail said:

    CEVT sounds like a simple way to absorb IP rather than steal it. Doesn't sound like a lot of sharing, being based where the bought out entity was/is located. Who is gaining what?

    They both are gaining something out of it. Geely gets the expertise on high quality platform development and Volvo gets a platform they never would have been able to develop on their own. It's nothing really different than what Ford got from Volvo. Is it really any different than Daimler partnering with Renault for development of an MB pickup? Daimler gets Nissan's BOF expertise - could they be absorbing it as well?

    Keep in mind, I'm no apologist for Chinese companies. But you can't paint every single one with the same brush.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Volvo is getting funds to stay afloat when it wasn't profitable alone, and Ford couldn't make a go of it. If they had been more in the black, they could develop that platform - it's more about affording than ability, IMO. Geely gets not just the IP, but the tenured brand.

    The Daimler-Nissan (Renault) mismash is already being seen with Infiniti. Renissan helps Daimler get into some commercial vehicles it hadn't made before (MB in aller Welt), MB helps Infiniti make some more appealing cars. Either could likely afford to do either on their own, but this is cheaper, more profits to be inhaled by already overpaid execs if the products actually succeed. Neither MB or Renissan bought one another for the badge and access to IP to compensate for lacking it initially.

    Not seeing a credible-through-western-eyes automotive attempt from our most favored "partner" just yet. However, I am not magnetically drawn to cheap things, and Chinese trade isn't a key to my salary, so I may have a different view than others here.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    The corruption is already at home in the good old US of A. Our hilarious investor visa guidelines go to huge lengths to reward that overseas corruption and unethical/illegal behavior.
    berri said:

    Yeah, let's reward China's behavior and corruption by letting their cars in the US on favorable import terms. Frankly, I think we need to reassess all of these trade agreements because by and large they seem to be lopsided against the US. It's not just tariffs, but all of the rules, behavior and bureaucracy these countries throw at American company products to impede their distribution and sale - And in general, Asian countries seem to be the worst in this area.

  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    edited September 2015
    I think Ford made a mistake going with the Volvo chassis. Five Hundred, Taurus and Freestyle were all cramped and poor sellers. The Five Hundred had good back seat legroom, but at the expense of a cramped driver's position. Unless you were going to use it as a taxi, didn't make sense to me. Ford has spent a fair amount of money improving the Explorer and the Volvo chassis, but for many it is still kind of odd inside, particularly the seating position. They do sell a lot of them, but quite a few seem to be fleet like police and municipal vehicles. I'm pretty sure when they redo the Explorer the Volvo chassis will disappear and it looks like the Taurus may be toast soon. But then the whole premier group concept was stupid from the start and wasted a ton of money. Ford didn't really get consumer prestige out of it. Rather it seemed to weaken the image of many of the vehicle lines they bought. Asia should thank them for the fire sale prices they got buying Volvo and Jaguar thanks to the Jacques Nasser debacle.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I dunno Fin, I'm not defending some of the crooks in the US, but I think China could teach them more than a few new tricks ;)
  • guido65guido65 Member Posts: 25
    The media does not represent the difference between "made" and "assembled" very well when saying a certain manufacturer "makes" so and so vehicle here in the U.S. Dig deeper and its more like assembled, parts come from overseas, tooling to build the vehicle comes from overseas, support of the plant comes from overseas. Americans just snap it together.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    There was a joke about Kissinger in DC: "If he really likes you, he'll stop his car before letting you out".
    fintail said:

    He makes Cheney look like the Tooth Fairy. If there's one cowardly old monster who slithered his way to power and who deserves a Nuremberg style inquisition, it's him. With similar results, of course.

    No doubt he's loving the events of today.

  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    In Chicago they say you can tell the mob guy because he always has his back to the wall so he can get to yours.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2015
    "While General Motors awaits formal notice from the UAW that a four-year agreement has been ratified, the automaker's Buick brand remains intent on importing a compact crossover vehicle from China.

    The Free Press reported in August that Buick planned to begin selling the Envision, now produced at a plant in Shandong province of China, by the end of 2016. Thursday, the Wall Street Journal reported that Buick still plans to import the vehicle to the U.S."

    Buick firm on importing Envision crossover from China (Detroit Free Press)

    GM to Import Chinese-Made Buick SUV (WSJ registration link)

  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    It will be interesting how it pans out. If successful it will give GM a nice chunk of profits, but it may also risk accelerating US entry and acceptance of new Chinese brands that could come back and bite GM.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited November 2015
    Interesting timing with the UAW thinking about reopening contract talks and the skilled workers griping about the current deal on the table.

    Good point about opening the door to the Cherys out there.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    As for the UAW, I think Detroit, and probably particularly Ford and their cave in HR philosophy, will rue this agreement down the road in a few years when sales move back to a more normal volume. I'm assuming they still have to pay out a big portion of salary to these workers during layoff periods?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited November 2015
    Yeah, sales are booming - shaping up to be the biggest year since 2001, or maybe 2004. I also think sales will start to taper off later in 2016 as people scratch the itch they got when the economy went south in 2008. But you can argue that right now the automakers can't afford not to pay the workers well and face an extended strike - if they miss this current bubble of sales, they'll be playing catch up for a long time. VW may be sitting in that boat in the US right now.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I was under the impression that the Envision and the 2017 Chevy Equinox would both be built in Oshawa. That would still make it an "imported" vehicle albeit from a NAFTA nation.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Chinese Buick will either sell to the expats who aren't buying new MBs in my area, or to fleets.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    But you can argue that right now the automakers can't afford not to pay the workers well and face an extended strike - if they miss this current bubble of sales, they'll be playing catch up for a long time

    Very true and even more influenced by Wall Street short term focus. But long term they may have been better off letting the contract expire and advertising for new workers like Caterpillar did. That weakened the UAW there which still helps the company. The workers know that Cat could up and move somewhere to a port city in the south where it is right to work if there is labor trouble. Hiring new workers is disruptive for a bit, but much of the work isn't that skilled. I rented a new Traverse top of the line LTZ a few months ago. Had around 1400 miles on it. Put my elbow on the driver's armrest and not only was it loose, but the entire panel was flexing. I've rented many of those, so I know its not a design flaw. Rather the result of a lazy or bad attitude UAW line worker. I actually think if Detroit stood up to the UAW it might bring some new sales down the road. So many Americans have been burned by the UAW lack of work ethic in the past.

    Chinese Buick will either sell to the expats who aren't buying new MBs in my area, or to fleets

    I sure wouldn't buy one. Don't trust China quality or morals. They'd probably set it up to be hacked if they chose to attack America B)
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