Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

dino001 · September 2015

Perhaps when you reflash, the car becomes undriveable. It may not be just simple loss of power and gas mileage, but such strange output characteristics that it is no longer streetworthy. When car is on rollers, it doesn't push anything. Just guessing here.

Sandman6472 · September 2015

Being the owners of a 2015 Audi A3 and a VW Golf SE, both gas models, think this will all blow over and VW/Audi will survive just fine. Seems that all, or most, car companies have had their share of problems over the years, some worse than others, but most have survived and thrived in later years. We're not worried one bit, as we keep our vehicles longer than the average owner does, and look forward to many years of fun driving ahead. If had to do it all again, the only change I think I'd make is I'd have also bought an A3, in a different color though. Since the wife had a bigger budget than I, the Golf seemed to be the next best alternative to a similar vehicle since one seems to be built upon the other.

The Sandman

ctl · September 2015

I won't be so optimistic. Even though the damage it causes (more air pollution) doesn't seem so serious, the cost and fine for recalling 11M cars doesn't seem out of hand for a company this size, the lost trust might be repaired overtime... the law suits from owners and governments around the world can really bring VW to its knees. It's one thing to build a lousy car or falsify the HP or MPG, another to intentionally cheat. One of the above can be criminally charged.

Good news is, good cars will be kept, just the share holders will be damned

tlong · September 2015

sandman_6472 said:
Being the owners of a 2015 Audi A3 and a VW Golf SE, both gas models, think this will all blow over and VW/Audi will survive just fine. Seems that all, or most, car companies have had their share of problems over the years, some worse than others, but most have survived and thrived in later years. We're not worried one bit, as we keep our vehicles longer than the average owner does, and look forward to many years of fun driving ahead. If had to do it all again, the only change I think I'd make is I'd have also bought an A3, in a different color though. Since the wife had a bigger budget than I, the Golf seemed to be the next best alternative to a similar vehicle since one seems to be built upon the other.

The Sandman

Honestly I'd like to see companies that are blatant cheaters to go down HARD. Unfortunately it doesn't usually happen. The big US banks are all bigger than ever and ready to cause a new economic destruction. I'm sure VW won't be hit all that hard. I used to like VW, had VWs for many years, but the combination of parts costs, crappy dealer service, decontented blandmobiles, and now severe cheating is enough for me to never touch them again.

kyfdx · September 2015

Isn't $35K the possible fine/penalty per car?

I don't think it has anything to do with the recall/repair cost.

markcincinnati · September 2015

kyfdx said:
Isn't $35K the possible fine/penalty per car?

I don't think it has anything to do with the recall/repair cost.

Well, then, if you are correct and it seems logical that you are -- I still don't understand why VW would risk so much for a couple hundred or so bucks increase in the MSRP. Also, the total US number of cars affected is just south of 500K, globally it is 11M. If VW just thought the US EPA was BS, why cheat on the other 10.5M cars?

This, besides being illegal, unethical, bad behavior seems like such a boneheaded thing to have done, it is scary.

Everyone ALWAYS gets caught -- or at least history is replete with bad actors being caught over and over and over again. This current situation is similar to the behavior Cadillac was found to have been guilty of -- in their case the fine was $45M.

My thoughts: if you want a diesel car, you know it will cost more and, generally speaking not have quite the performance parameters we're used to in gas powered cars. Was the fudge factor in these small 2.0L engines so different with the ad-blue technology that folks would say, hell no, this thing's a dog?

Other than pain, suffering, corporate shame and big losses, what could anyone have thought would be gained even if there was virtual certainty of not being found out? Winterkorn, apparently, really must be not too bright and too arrogant by about a million percent.

robr2 · September 2015

Actually the EPA adopted CARB standards for 2016. Makes sense since AFAIK, no manufacturer makes both CARB and Non CARB vehicles anymore.

benjaminh said:

andres3 said:
....Most States have adopted CARB standards, so yes, emissions would be about the same without the EPA. Also, while the EPA might have stringent emission criteria, their tests are obviously incompetent to detect actual emissions, so actual emissions would be about the same, while perhaps the regulations might have lower standards. I'm talking real-world here.
"Most states" would mean more than half, which would mean more than 25 states. In fact, it's fewer than 20 states according to wikipedia:

"States adopting the California standards include Arizona (2012 model year), Connecticut, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico (2011 model year), New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Washington, as well as the District of Columbia."

flightnurse · September 2015

dino001 said:
I think the issue with AdBlue is that you need to keep putting this stuff in, so the there is more maintenance, which defeats "economy" car proposition.

Most of the gas station we saw in Europe had a special pump to add "the Blue." But we all know that Europe has adapted oil burners and that 90% of cars are oil burners..

The added the maintenance can be bought at any auto store if needed, and each tank is good for roughly 10K miles.,

dino001 · September 2015

Not even close to 90 percent.

http://www.enveurope.com/content/25/1/15/figure/F1

cdnpinhead · September 2015

sandman_6472 said:
. . . think this will all blow over and VW/Audi will survive just fine.

Perhaps wishing will make it so.

cdnpinhead · September 2015

Everyone ALWAYS gets caught.

Unless they don't.

I'm positing that we don't hear about those because, well, they didn't get caught.

markcincinnati · September 2015

cdnpinhead said:
Everyone ALWAYS gets caught.

Unless they don't.

I'm positing that we don't hear about those because, well, they didn't get caught.

And, I do agree that we don't know about those who don't get caught -- I should be more precise.

But, there are sufficient numbers that are caught and make the news that there generally seems to be little upside.

Let's just say that VW has to pay $10B, not the $18B figure that is being used by some in the news. After all VW already thinks they're in for over $7B in expenses to get through this. Is it possible that this figure is but a fraction of the cost of not doing the crime in the first place?

There may be circumstances that are what might be called justifications for doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. But what reasoning could possibly justify thinking that this was a reasonable risk?

I keep looking for some logic, even if flawed that explains why any company would do such an expensive and dumb act.

Winterkorn says he was unaware that 11M cars had had cheater software installed in them. How is it possible that this is true? And, unless PEOPLE are punished, what makes anyone think bad corporate behavior won't just keep on happening? And, I'm not talking about the shareholders being the people who get punished, either.

kyfdx · September 2015

I don't think they did it to save a few hundred dollars per car.

They did it, because with proper emission controls, their cars aren't as peppy, and don't get that amazing fuel mileage. In other words, everything the driving public likes about VW diesels (driveability, mpg, no DEF added) goes away.

dino001 · September 2015

Agree. Look at the other compliant (as far as we know, anyway) diesels - mileage margins against their gas counterparts is diminishing, the durability is basically gone, the robustness is gone (they are very sensitive to fuel quality). I'm more and more convinced European diesel explosion was a huge con perpetuated by the officials and manufacturers on the people to lower CO2 with all other more harmful stuff ignored. Euro VI standards are just catching up with EPA and they will wake up to the new reality that diesel doesn't look so great anymore.

benjaminh · September 2015

And the scandal deepens....From Automotive News

"Audi's r&d boss, Porsche engine chief to quit, report says

VW to start firings over emissions scandal on Friday, report says

September 24, 2015 - 7:45 am ET

BERLIN (Reuters) -- Two of Volkswagen group's highest-ranking engineers will be forced to quit as the automaker is pushing steps to clear up the diesel emissions scandal, a German newspaper reported.

Audi r&d boss Ulrich Hackenberg and Porsche's engine chief Wolfgang Hatz will be dismissed at a meeting of the supervisory board on Friday, Bild newspaper said, citing unnamed company sources.

Hackenberg, 65, was a long-time VW brand executive, while Hatz, 56, is VW Group's head of engines and transmissions in addition to his Porsche role.

VW and Porsche declined comment, while Audi couldn't be reached for comment."

http://www.autonews.com/article/20150924/COPY01/309249920

benjaminh · September 2015

Audi R & D Chief's very name, "Hackenberg," seems almost like a random and unintentionally comic spin on how they "hacked" their own software....But it seems like the higher execs are going to do a Colonel Klink.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmzsWxPLIOo

dino001 · September 2015

Apparently now BMW is under scrutiny. No evidence, just suggestions or some early reports, media are often wrong at first. However, if true we can say with near certainty that all become suspects. The Europeans better look closely at Peugeot, Renault, Fiat et al.

We have a wave of outraged officials all over the world right now. I'm waiting for news that they actually knew about it (at least to some extent), but did nothing, because of their political agenda of "save the planet's climate by giving everybody cancer". This may take a while, as those interests are deeply entrenched. It simply didn't make sense to me that suddenly Hans, Pierre, or Giovanni the Public fell in love with diesels, not just cab drivers and fleet managers, even those individuals didn't travel nearly as much as those fleets. Something was amiss . I knew the incentives were in place, just didn't realize how aggressive those governments got into portraying gasoline as source of all evil and diesel as savior of the planet.

It's going to be interesting to watch.

markcincinnati · September 2015

One of the key comments -- and one that I agree with -- is that the advantages that diesel (engines) have over gasoline is/has diminished. The thing is, do we know how much we've seen the gasoline engines catch up with the diesel?

Clearly forced induction and small displacement engines have contributed to this. Now, or at least it would be fair to say "soon" we will have the ability to synthesize "gasoline" from termite (well sorta) waste and we just keep finding more and more ways to extract energy from the planet in many forms, including natural gas and shale, etc.

I saw another TV show -- which of course means it's true -- that said something to the effect that we have about 99 years worth of traditional fuels -- that we know of -- available to us (at present rates of consumption) in the US.

In 99 years, or even 59 years, I would assume we'll find ways to manufacture or harvest or extract energy from sources that today are too expensive or from sources that we currently aren't even aware of.

Perhaps diesel is done -- but, isn't it true that diesel contains more energy per drop and has (historically) been some 33% more efficient than gasoline. Moreover, with filters and converters and adblue, haven't we reduced pollution? Of course, perhaps this event will mark the turning point for the love affair Europe has had with diesel and the surging love affair Americans have started to have with it.

With the claimed ability to manufacture fuels from bio-substances (garbage, not food, hopefully) and with the claims that we will be able to figure out how to make fuel from water and make it affordable, maybe we've breathed new life into the internal combustion engine.

With respect to the "reason" for the lie postulated as "VW didn't want their cars to have less pep and less MPGs if they had made the cars pollute less, it seems like a reason that still doesn't make sense.

The engines, mostly, where this cheat was perpetuated were the VW and/or Audi 2.0L, correct? Wouldn't it have been possible to apply the pollution corrective measures on a 2.2L engine to keep up the HP and torque and perhaps suffer an MPG or three drop?

Again, this seems like a pressure cooker left alone with the heat on high -- it was only a matter of time before the thing would blow up (spraying beans all over the place). How could anyone think this cheat would not be discovered? I guess I am amazed that it took this long for the ruse to be brought to the light of day.

So now these folks are all getting fired. My take is the people who ordered the cheat and the folks who were in a position to blow the whistle and didn't ought to face some PERSONAL consequences beyond being fired (with some kind of generous exit package one would imagine). Perhaps a "programmer" who wrote the lines of code could be spared, perhaps. But the programmer's manager who told him/her to write the code, should be in a "you are personally liable" position at least somewhat.

Did the board know? Or do that have provable, plausible deniability?

dino001 · September 2015

How could anyone think this cheat would not be discovered?

Maybe because (I'm speculating) they've been doing it not just since 2009, but perhaps they were doing it before and getting away? Who know how many undetected defeat devices were out there in the past? I'm not big on conspiracies, but they clearly do exist.

tlong · September 2015

Seems like the EPA ought to have a testing process where the equipment rides in the car and sniffs the tailpipes while driving. I'd want to know that ALL cars had been checked for cheating - gas, diesel, the works.

circlew · September 2015

More than 10 years after the defect was detected, General Motors issued recalls for several models suspected of having a faulty switch.

http://www.npr.org/2014/03/31/297158876/timeline-a-history-of-gms-ignition-switch-defect

graphicguy · September 2015

Not seeing this VW/Audi/Porsche dieslmthung going awaynany time soon. Current diesel customers won't like the fix. They'll want some sort of compensation for not getting what ghey thought they were buying. Potential future customers crossing the brands off their "buy" list.

Then there are the fines, which will keep,the financials of the company in the spotlight (not in a good way), for a good long while, too.

It's just a mess.

Best to all current VW/Audi/Porsche customers. Whether you own their gas vehicles or diesel vehicles, reputation is a hard thing to regain once it's lost.

roadburner · September 2015

Exactly; look how long it took Audi to get out from under the so-called "unintended acceleration" scandal. Decades can be spent building brand equity but it can be destroyed in the blink of an eye.

benjaminh · September 2015

from Auto News:

"Audi says 2.1 million cars affected by diesel emissions scandal

September 28, 2015 - 5:35 am ET
BERLIN (Reuters) -- Audi says 2.1 million of its vehicles worldwide are fitted with the software that allowed parent Volkswagen Group to cheat U.S. emission tests.

About 1.42 million Audi vehicles with EU5 diesel engines are affected in Western Europe, with 577,000 in Germany and almost 13,000 in the U.S., a spokesman for Audi said today.

Affected model lines include the A1, A3, A4, A5, A6, TT, Q3 and Q5, the spokesman said...."

http://www.autonews.com/article/20150928/COPY01/309289928/audi-says-21-million-cars-affected-by-diesel-emissions-scandal

stickguy · September 2015

Oops

markcincinnati · September 2015

This -- VW/diesel-gate -- ought to be a lesson, but I find it difficult to believe it will be, other than the fact that in Germany CORPORATIONS aren't indicted, INDIVIDUALS are.

Listen, it is not so much that I hate to say this, as, I am moving on. For example, I am hoping to be able to buy the next gen S4 (with a gasoline engine). Other than the possibility that the billions this will cost (to say nothing of the time it will take) could kill the company and all of its held companies, what is the likelihood that the "VW Group" will actually cease to exist on the planet earth? To do that, I would assume the divisions of the company would have to be sold off in pieces with the proceeds being used to satisfy the debt and punishment that may well be heading their way; and I would assume if the car companies were sold to cover the cost of the litigation and the "cure", there could be an opportunity for the new "owners", so to speak, to keep on keepin' on, better than ever, unfettered by the costs of the litigation and punishment.

So, the question is posed: in 2017 (for example) can I still have "high" confidence there will still be cars to buy from what is left over after the dust settles?

Winterkorn be in deep trouble based on the reports this morning . . . either he knew and lied or didn't know meaning his lights were on, but no-one was home. For a German exec, neither one of these conclusions is anything less than a life sentence. There is, apparently, no lesser of evils for Martin -- he be screwed even if "they" kept it from him so cleverly that even multiple inquiries regarding the pollution of the cars in question didn't raise his suspicions,

Wonder who's got it worse, Brian Williams or Martin Winterkorn? My bet would be Martin is in deeper do-do, since it is possible he could be indicted, personally, then tried, convicted and sentenced.

How 'bout them Bengals?

henryn · September 2015

markcincinnati said:

Winterkorn be in deep trouble based on the reports this morning . . . either he knew and lied or didn't know meaning his lights were on, but no-one was home. For a German exec, neither one of these conclusions is anything less than a life sentence. There is, apparently, no lesser of evils for Martin -- he be screwed even if "they" kept it from him so cleverly that even multiple inquiries regarding the pollution of the cars in question didn't raise his suspicions,

Winterkorn walked away with a Golden Parachute to the tune of $67 million. If that's what you call "being screwed", then I really, really want to volunteer to be "screwed".

benjaminh · September 2015

Bill Maher offers parodies of VW ads halfway through this 2 minute video. Could Audi "Truth in Engineering" parodies be next?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGiorsRXevA

benjaminh · September 2015

markcincinnati said:
....For example, I am hoping to be able to buy the next gen S4 (with a gasoline engine). Other than the possibility that the billions this will cost (to say nothing of the time it will take) could kill the company and all of its held companies, what is the likelihood that the "VW Group" will actually cease to exist on the planet earth? ....

I think VW and Audi will survive. But one estimate said this might cost $50 billion or so worldwide when all is said and done. Look at this this way—you'll probably get your next Audi for slightly less than you thought.

sweendogy · October 2015

http://youtu.be/GhvI2oeBPtY

Audi / vw have a long way to go to get the customer confidence base back. I'm very disappointed and I own an Audi. I hope they back the quality cars they build and somehow make it thru but I as a future customer would beware. They should extend all s4 car warrantees another 3 years ( wishing). Let's hope they don't fall off the map like Infiniti and Acura or all of us will be forced to go into a BMW or worse mB dealer to get a German .

dino001 · October 2015

I just hope they'll try harder, like they have something to prove. Because they do, of course. I also hope this will spark more competition, as when they try harder, others will have ro respond.

markcincinnati · October 2015

First I did a double take; second I did a spit take; third I gagged; fourth I cried (well, almost)

Data point: My Audi dealership is owned by a billion+ dollar company. This dealer group has the Audi dealership and the Cadillac dealership within a few hundred yards of each other.

I did test drive, among other things, a Cadillac CTS when I was shopping for my new 2012 and 2014 cars. I was actually impressed with the CTS, but thought is was, er, mushy compared with the taught German and Japanese cars in the over $50K price range. I did think that once the suspension was recalibrated that the Cadillac could be a real contender. Cadillac must've thought so too, since the pros all seem to fawn over the ATS and CTS cars (appropriately optioned).

So, as I overtook what looked like a "fake" CTS this morning, I half expected it to be a kit car -- you know a CTS overlay on top of a LaCrosse or something even worse.

Yikes!

It was a new CTS with a "Landau" roof and a bunch of chrome and "gold" bling. I assumed this car was a joke foisted upon someone for some unknown and sick reason.

As I pulled next to the driver -- an apparently older American (remember I am one myself) -- I became so mad at the dealer, not the driver, for making this CTS tacky by any 2015 standards I can think of. Can you imagine any Audi, BMW or Mercedes dealership gold plating the brightwork of one of their cars, let alone putting a fake leather roof cover on it? What's next coach lights?

I thought this kind of tackiness was perhaps at least a decade+ behind us.

Are there no "rules and regulations" that Cadillac dealers must comply with? I mean it is one thing to see a new Camry or Accord so, er, adorned, in fact, I expect Camry's to be tackily dressed. But, at this stage of the game, how is it that a Cadillac dealer slipped through the time-warp cracks falling back to th 80's or 70's?

I hurled.

I do not fault the senior citizen for their purchase, OK, I fault them a little bit, but how is it that some SW Ohio dealership in 2015 could even think this was a good thing for the brand?

The CTS and even the ATS would have been on my short list based on all of the positive praise the pros have lauded on it. Now, I just can't see myself even bothering to test drive one, knowing that there are such "super tacky" versions out there.

This dealer should be shot (metaphorically speaking).

roadburner · October 2015

When the Lincoln LS was introduced most Lincoln dealers were pimping them out; there was one Lincoln manager who would come to Edmunds as well as other boards and ask for the names of the dealers that were cranking out the Drug Dealer/Blue Hair Specials. Unfortunately, the auto dealer franchise laws make it well-nigh impossible to yank a franchise absent criminal conduct- so dealers with no taste will continue to perpetrate these abominations on the driving public.

stickguy · October 2015

I saw one of those full vinyl roof CTS's last week too. Actually looked OK on that car (dark red with black roof). But I don't recall any gold bling on it.

kyfdx · October 2015

Supply meeting demand. Give the customer what they want.

The rest of you will get over it.

graphicguy · October 2015

Mark....I think the Cadillac dealers (and I'm quite familiar with the exact one you're talking about) are themselves trying to find a way out of the sales "funk" Cadillac is in. If it takes luring Octogenrians back into the showroom (which Cadillac is trying so hard to expel) to make money, they will.

That said, I can't even remotely imagine the Senior Set liking how the CTS road, handles and drives to buy one....even with faux roofs, wheels and gold trim.

That's the least of Cadillac's problems, though.

rayainsw · October 2015

For anyone here who might be considering European Delivery on a BMW:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/news/863248/bmw-european-delivery-discount-reduced-5-percent-january-2016/

dino001 · October 2015

Disapointing.

qbrozen · October 2015

Heck, I saw a new Camry a couple of weeks ago with the landau treatment. No idea why such a thing is still even possible on cars.

robr2 · October 2015

I've seen an MB and Audi with the landau treatment. Money doesn't buy taste.

roadburner · October 2015

rayainsw said:
For anyone here who might be considering European Delivery on a BMW:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/news/863248/bmw-european-delivery-discount-reduced-5-percent-january-2016/

Oh well, I'll probably never even take American delivery of another BMW.

markcincinnati · October 2015

BMW reduces ED discount from 7% to 5%.

Does this mean that the discount that is offered a retail customer will be 5% off of MSRP or 5% off of the negotiated selling price at the US dealer?

At the time (late 2013), I got 6% off of the MSRP of a 2014 S4. My wife also got that percentage off of an SQ5 a couple of months later. These "S" cars are usually discounted less than the non-S versions, so we thought 6% off of US MSRP was a decent deal -- and we both got EXACTLY the car that we wanted, not the second color we would except, etc, but the exact cars we wanted.

Now, having said this, does this mean that it would actually be possible to pay MORE for a new BMW purchased through the ED program than it would cost to buy one from a dealer in the US for US delivery?

Or does it mean negotiate your best price and THEN take 5% off for ED?

My experience is that 5% is not all that hard to get from a US dealer, thus making the ED option less attractive with a reduction of 2%.

robr2 · October 2015

The ED MSRP and Invoice is 7% and will be 5% less than the normal MSRP and Invoice price. It is possible to negotiate a better ED price on a BMW than the official prices as there is some profit left for the dealer.

It is quite possible to pay more for an ED car than taking a car in stock but some people feel the trip to the Welt in Munich is worth it.

My understanding is the discounts are as follows:

Audi - 5%
BMW - 7% going to 5%
Mercedes - 7%
Porsche - 0%
Volvo - 3-10%

All provide one night's hotel stay, 15 days of insurance, shipping back to the US, and airport transfers. Volvo adds 2 round trip air tickets and a tasty meatball meal in their cafe. Volvo even has tourist programs available that you can book at the same time. Right now, Volvo is also offering and extra $1000 discount in European deliveries.

dino001 · October 2015

robr2 said:
The ED MSRP and Invoice is 7% and will be 5% less than the normal MSRP and Invoice price. It is possible to negotiate a better ED price on a BMW than the official prices as there is some profit left for the dealer.

It is quite possible to pay more for an ED car than taking a car in stock but some people feel the trip to the Welt in Munich is worth it.

My understanding is the discounts are as follows:

Audi - 5%
BMW - 7% going to 5%
Mercedes - 7%
Porsche - 0%
Volvo - 3-10%

All provide one night's hotel stay, 15 days of insurance, shipping back to the US, and airport transfers. Volvo adds 2 round trip air tickets and a tasty meatball meal in their cafe. Volvo even has tourist programs available that you can book at the same time. Right now, Volvo is also offering and extra $1000 discount in European deliveries.

Small additions/corrections:

1. Only BMW price is negotiable, others are set by manufacturer. In other words, BMW uses exactly the same invoice-to-retail scheme, just at lower levels. I think the difference comes from BMW using dealer same way to purchase the vehicle, whereas others may be using their dealers only to handle the paperwork (and purchase is direct from them).
2. BMW 7% (now going to 5%) discount on both invoice and retail price applies ONLY to the base price of each line (e.g. 328i, 335i, 535ix, etc.). All options (such as metallic paint, premium pack, nav, etc.) are priced at same level as US delivery. Destination charge (BMW loves advertising "from" without inclusion of those $900+, like we actually had an option of not paying it - I really hate that, it's unseemly) is also full US level, no discount. This makes the "blended" discount closer to 5.8-6.5% for more heavily optioned vehicles - now it will be just about 4-4.5%.
3. BMW DOES NOT include hotel stay, only transportation from the airport to the hotel downtown, or directly to BMW Welt.
4. BMW will feed you over the course of the day at BMW Welt in their cafeteria and you also get a talkien 20 euros credit or so in their restaurant (won't cover full meal, but will be OK to buy something with it).
4. X-models are made in the US for the entire world, thus are not eligible for ED.
5. I think Porsche may actually have a surcharge on the price, but I'm not sure about it.

I totally agree - the ED is not about the money discount, it's about the experience. We are still lucky here in the US to get anything. Canadians, or others (Brazilians, Europeans) get the BMW Welt delivery, but no discount.

andres3 · October 2015

graphicguy said:
Not seeing this VW/Audi/Porsche dieslmthung going awaynany time soon. Current diesel customers won't like the fix. They'll want some sort of compensation for not getting what ghey thought they were buying. Potential future customers crossing the brands off their "buy" list.

Then there are the fines, which will keep,the financials of the company in the spotlight (not in a good way), for a good long while, too.

It's just a mess.

Best to all current VW/Audi/Porsche customers. Whether you own their gas vehicles or diesel vehicles, reputation is a hard thing to regain once it's lost.

If flying to DC in gross polluting high NOX emission jet planes begging for bailouts for failed business enterprises didn't hurt the Big 3's reputation much, certainly tricking the EPA won't hurt much either other than fines that go into somebodies pocket.

dino001 · October 2015

markcincinnati said:
BMW reduces ED discount from 7% to 5%.

Does this mean that the discount that is offered a retail customer will be 5% off of MSRP or 5% off of the negotiated selling price at the US dealer?

Neither. The price is simply negotiated same way as it were US delivery, with "ED MSRP" and "ED Invoice" values being

NOW:
ED Price (MSRP/Invoice) = US BASE Price (MSRP/Invoice)*0.93 + US OPTION price (MSRP/Invoice)+US Destination (same both levels);

SOON:
ED Price (MSRP/Invoice) = US BASE Price (MSRP/Invoice)*0.95 + US OPTION price (MSRP/Invoice)+US Destination (same both)

Essentially the ED Invoice is what the dealer pays, whereas ED MSRP is what it sounds. You negotiate with the dealer where you hit within that spread. Values strongly depend on markets - some dealers don't even want to hear about discounting from ED MSRP (following theory of always preferring selling a unit from the lot rather than one not built yet). Unlike US deliveries, ED vehicles are not subject to allotments, training fee, or some other fees BMW may charge the dealers. Conversely, ED is not eligible for certain customer cash rebates (the disclaimers often specifically say that), such as those you may get by participating in their "Drive" events. I believe BMW Sports Club discount does apply.

flightnurse · October 2015

markcincinnati said:
BMW reduces ED discount from 7% to 5%.

Does this mean that the discount that is offered a retail customer will be 5% off of MSRP or 5% off of the negotiated selling price at the US dealer?

At the time (late 2013), I got 6% off of the MSRP of a 2014 S4. My wife also got that percentage off of an SQ5 a couple of months later. These "S" cars are usually discounted less than the non-S versions, so we thought 6% off of US MSRP was a decent deal -- and we both got EXACTLY the car that we wanted, not the second color we would except, etc, but the exact cars we wanted.

Now, having said this, does this mean that it would actually be possible to pay MORE for a new BMW purchased through the ED program than it would cost to buy one from a dealer in the US for US delivery?

Or does it mean negotiate your best price and THEN take 5% off for ED?

My experience is that 5% is not all that hard to get from a US dealer, thus making the ED option less attractive with a reduction of 2%.

Mark, the MSRP for a ED BMW is still lower then the "regular" MSRP, since the car is considered a used car to the US government and so the tax's are lower.

This is not new, news, I think I mentioned this in one my report. 2% is roughly less then a grand, it's known that 10% off regualr MSRP is the norm for a good ED price.

dino001 · October 2015

flightnurse said:

markcincinnati said:
Mark, the MSRP for a ED BMW is still lower then the "regular" MSRP, since the car is considered a used car to the US government and so the tax's are lower.

Which taxes? Surely not my sales tax. Florida taxes new and used car sales the same, anyway, I think. Perhaps you are thinking of US custom tariff, which if true, would make sense. I have no idea what tariffs are on vehicles, as they are generally included in the price of the product and not itemized the same way say state sales taxes are.

robr2 · October 2015

My understanding isn't that the import taxes are that much less on a used car, Rather, ED cars do not have holdback on them, don't qualify for dealer incentives or bonus money, and the US subsidiary profit is wiped away since they didn't sell the car. Hence the manufacturer saves those funds and passes that onto the consumer.

markcincinnati · October 2015

Someone said the dealer would rather sell off the lot than promote/sell a car not yet built. From the time I had purchased my 5th or 6th Audi -- and became friends with my dealer/owner -- he told me he would much rather have only "test drive" inventory, service loaner inventory and some used cars. He shared with me that ordered cars have some profit, whereas cars on the lot have less profit. He said he wished US customers were more like European customers, in that they order cars -- dealers are not for the purpose of inventory control, rather they are in the business of demand creation and demand fulfillment via taking orders.

Out of nearly three dozens Audis since 1977, my wife and I have only purchased one car off the lot, and that was a 1996 A6 (that we leased for 12 months) that we used until our 1997 A8 (which took nearly a year from order to delivery) came into the US.

I find buying off the lot to mean one thing -- compromise. You pay more and you often settle for something that is simply not exactly what you wanted.

I don't get the thought process of waking up one Saturday morning and saying to your spouse, "let's go buy a car today." Of course y'all must think me daft since I start buying my next car the day after I pick up my latest car -- test driving is a serious hobby for my wife and me, that is. We test drive cars for, perhaps, 36 months then we order one and pick it up 2-6 months later.

It is quite educational -- the test driving that is -- and it is low cost fun, to boot.

Drive it like YOU live (natch)!

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles