Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

tlong · October 2015

Mr_Shiftright said:
A bit cruel, that article...it implies that the general public views the Cadillac CTS on the same status level as the Hyundai Genesis. I think the author is correct, but it's a bitter pill for GM I'm sure.

Somehow Cadillac has to instill the prestige that the aging Escalade has with the SUV crowd back into the CTS.

Sometimes the problem is that image is just tarnished. They're making pretty good cars, but the name says Old People Boats. Hard to shake that. And of course the franchise agreements the dealers have with GM pretty much constrain much flexiblity for GM. I would have said close down Caddy and start a differently-named luxury division, but probably not practical.

graphicguy · October 2015

"Aside from how poorly it holds its value over time, and the quality and detailing issues..../i>

There's all you need to know right there. The CTS is plagued with quality faux pas. And, they don't come anywhere near the customer service levels of BMW, Benz, etc.

They don't care enough about those issues to correct them, though. They'd rather revert back to "GM does no wrong" attitude that they had pre-bankruptcy. They've forgotten we dug them out of their hole and gone back to "business as usual."

circlew · October 2015

Still would rather the Q50 over the ATS/CTS. But that's probable just me!

ATS YTD Sales = 18,839
Q50 YTd Sales = 31,603

nyccarguy · October 2015

I like the Q50 & I've even warmed up to the TLX in its V6 SH-AWD trim. Both cars offer tremendous bang for the buck which is very important in this category.

stickguy · October 2015

I love the TLX, but in FWD 4 cyl form. great transmission.

andres3 · October 2015

sweendogy said:
$37k focus - as mentioned the golf r similar car - the subi sti ain't cheap and if you ever been in / driven one it's amazing track car but it's not a sudo lux csr. . Ford bringing this over is cool - prob won't sell many but it's great to see they are making the effort to excite.
For that money I would go golf r - or better yet GTI with a cool 15k? To invest . Ha

The $10-15K extra for the Golf R is worth it as compared to the GTI. As someone who threw thousands into a former A3, I should know. You get better brakes, better suspension, better drivetrain and tuning. Most importantly, many of the engine components are beefed up and forged; so you can still tune your Golf R safely to 350 HP +/- for very little money. Whereas running 300 or more HP on a regular GTI by matching the turbo in the Golf R works, but can start to take away your durability and reliability. Also, the R is 3rd generation Haldex AWD.

sweendogy · October 2015

@andres3 - all good points you make but who besides a real car nut would throw that kind of extra cash into a GTI to make it an sudo R. Not my point as the same could be said about the focus st vs new focus r. The enthusiast will pay the premium- but in doing so you stil get the basics of both a regular golf and focus - same with a3/s3. Some of that is not all bad - but for the regular guy who's looking to go fast and both be comfortable would be disappointed in the details . I test drove the stI years ago and the thing that turned me off wasn't the constant buzz coming from the exhaust it was the frameless Windows on the door- yes something that minute turned me off as it screamed econobox Impreza.

andres3 · October 2015

sweendogy said:
@andres3 - all good points you make but who besides a real car nut would throw that kind of extra cash into a GTI to make it an sudo R. Not my point as the same could be said about the focus st vs new focus r. The enthusiast will pay the premium- but in doing so you stil get the basics of both a regular golf and focus - same with a3/s3. Some of that is not all bad - but for the regular guy who's looking to go fast and both be comfortable would be disappointed in the details . I test drove the stI years ago and the thing that turned me off wasn't the constant buzz coming from the exhaust it was the frameless Windows on the door- yes something that minute turned me off as it screamed econobox Impreza.

I guess it all comes down to if you find the current generation GOLF an econobox or not. I found it to be quite well detailed and trimmed inside and out. The chassis is strong, tight, and light. All good things. I haven't test driven the Golf R yet; that's the next step. I'd bet money the rare flaws I found in the Mexican built Golfs/Sportwagens is non-existent in the German built R. Another big-time PLUS for the R in my book vs. other Golf's. That alone makes it not just "another" Golf to me.

I will say the DSG in the TDI Sportwagen is lazy. I would bet more money it doesn't have the same programming in the R.

As to what the Golf Sportwagen SE is missing vs. my S4:

1) HP, quickness, and speed.
2) Real Leather Interior (though I like the Pleather VW is using). R uses real leather seating surfaces.
3) It is smaller; though more utility possibilities and flexibility with hatch design.
4) Sportwagen doesn't have Audi Drive Adjustable settings for steering, exhaust, shifting, and other characteristics (comfort, auto, sport), but I think the R does.
5) The hatch doesn't open on its own with the push of a remote button like the S4 trunk.
6) Surprisingly, I think the Golf's do pretty much all have push-button start, rear-view cameras these days.
7) No electronic Parking brake on the Wagon SE (big handle still); though the R might?

I'm sure I might think of a couple other things, but this is all I can come up with for features right now.

markcincinnati · October 2015

Here's another issue that Cadillac faces: The Auto Mall (AM).

You can go to the AM and in the space of a couple hundred yards (feet in some cases) you can see the Cadillac dealer, the Lexus dealer, the Lincoln dealer and the Ford, KIA, Chrysler/Dodge, Hyundai and Honda dealers. So, you test the Cadillac, then a couple of minutes later be behind the wheel of a new Infiniti or Audi or BMW if you want.

With the MSRP of the Cadillac so close to that of the Lexus or BMW, etc, and with the ability to almost literally test drive several brands on any given Saturday, Cadillac probably seems -- at this point -- to be overpriced or for whatever reason is undervalued.

I just returned from a 4-day trade show in Las Vegas (at Caesars) and after the day's end I would walk down to the Forum Shops at Ceasars. I found several high-buck watch stores and one that carries many high-buck brands and some less expensive brands, too.

Seeing these watches, I thought about the Cadillac as I looked at the Tissot watch collection and then the Movado watch collection after having looked at the Rolex and MontBlanc watches.

Tissot makes some very nice watches that don't require a second mortgage -- I'd take a Tissot over a Seiko any day. But, once we get to, perhaps, over $1,500 to $2,000, Tissots just seem overpriced. At that price I can move to Movado, but once I get to over $2,000 to $2,500 for them, I start to think, Tag, MontBlanc or even Breitling despite the price jump. Somehow, the $4,995 MontBlanc, although expensive, doesn't seem as expensive as a $1,795 Tissot or $2,995 Movado. The Tags, too, can soar in price, but they don't actually seem out of line, even at $6,995 or higher.

Cadillac, today, may be Movado, in some cases, however, it may be perceived as a high-end Tissot. For me, that means, if I'm going to pay THAT much for a Cadillac, I might as well get an Audi, BMW or Mercedes -- and if I am on a budget and want a bunch of stuff (high content), well a Genesis starts looking as good as the Cadillac and priced appropriately. Genesis is Tissot, but can make you believe you got the Movado.

Cadillac today can't quite pull of making you believe you got the BMW -- other than the price you are asked to pay.

I'm just not in the market for a $4,995 Tissot.

The malls may be a great place to shop efficiently, but when Cadillac is in the lineup, it just seems -- at this juncture -- overpriced.

qbrozen · October 2015

I'm obviously in the "undervalued" camp. Although I did get a significant discount on my CTS, which pushed the decision very far in Caddy's favor, I did compare to BMW and Jag (never made it to the Benz dealer) and, since I value performance, preferred the Caddy. Even if it was the same cost, I would have thought the CTS the better car, although it is possible the steeper depreciation would have swayed me if not for the discount.

dino001 · October 2015

Never been a big fan of Caddy's styling, but I always looked at a previous CTS Wagon as a "far out there, maybe one day" alternative. Graphic's problems ultimately crossed out it as a possibility and lack of a proper sports wagon, or other type of lift/hatchback (5-door of any kind that is not raised) does not help, either. I'm kind of stuck with 3- or 4- series, even if I wanted something else. E-class wagon is too big and too expensive for me at this time. Don'd care much for cladding on the Allroad. I may check out V60, but seems like it has pretty bad mileage in its proper "R" form (not to mention dealers don't have them - I may look at S60-R as a proxy). All others dropped out.

tlong · October 2015

markcincinnati said:
Here's another issue that Cadillac faces: The Auto Mall (AM).

You can go to the AM and in the space of a couple hundred yards (feet in some cases) you can see the Cadillac dealer, the Lexus dealer, the Lincoln dealer and the Ford, KIA, Chrysler/Dodge, Hyundai and Honda dealers. So, you test the Cadillac, then a couple of minutes later be behind the wheel of a new Infiniti or Audi or BMW if you want.

With the MSRP of the Cadillac so close to that of the Lexus or BMW, etc, and with the ability to almost literally test drive several brands on any given Saturday, Cadillac probably seems -- at this point -- to be overpriced or for whatever reason is undervalued.

I think another compounding issue is that if the pricing is similar, the depreciation of Caddy is higher, so lease monthlies are going to be higher (that's my guess, I haven't checked). Since a lease is basically the financing of depreciation, the greater depreciation would actually make Caddy MORE expensive than those other brands, would it not, and is that actually the case? Or is GM basically reducing the price (effectively) by subsidizing the leases to remain at least at parity?

qbrozen · October 2015

Make no mistake, the other luxo models depreciate steeply, too. I've lost about $13k-$14k on my CTS in the first year of ownership (only that low thanks to discount). A comparable 550i is down roughly $20k (assuming I could have gotten about $5k off, which I'm totally guessing at). They have to heavily subsidize their leases, too.

Michaell · October 2015

tlong said:

markcincinnati said:
Here's another issue that Cadillac faces: The Auto Mall (AM).

You can go to the AM and in the space of a couple hundred yards (feet in some cases) you can see the Cadillac dealer, the Lexus dealer, the Lincoln dealer and the Ford, KIA, Chrysler/Dodge, Hyundai and Honda dealers. So, you test the Cadillac, then a couple of minutes later be behind the wheel of a new Infiniti or Audi or BMW if you want.

With the MSRP of the Cadillac so close to that of the Lexus or BMW, etc, and with the ability to almost literally test drive several brands on any given Saturday, Cadillac probably seems -- at this point -- to be overpriced or for whatever reason is undervalued.

I think another compounding issue is that if the pricing is similar, the depreciation of Caddy is higher, so lease monthlies are going to be higher (that's my guess, I haven't checked). Since a lease is basically the financing of depreciation, the greater depreciation would actually make Caddy MORE expensive than those other brands, would it not, and is that actually the case? Or is GM basically reducing the price (effectively) by subsidizing the leases to remain at least at parity?

I don't have any Cadillac lease numbers this month, so it's hard to say.

In the past, Cadillac has had pretty low MF as compared to MB, BMW, etc., so that helped on the lease payments. It's also important to remember that other brands artificially inflate the residual to make leasing more attractive - at the expense of having a car worth less than the buyout at the end of the lease.

If you think the lease numbers - especially residual value - are about reality, I'm here to refute that.

henryn · October 2015

qbrozen said:
Make no mistake, the other luxo models depreciate steeply, too. I've lost about $13k-$14k on my CTS in the first year of ownership (only that low thanks to discount). A comparable 550i is down roughly $20k (assuming I could have gotten about $5k off, which I'm totally guessing at). They have to heavily subsidize their leases, too.

Which puts you at about $1100 or $1200 a month, just in depreciation. Ouch!!!

And compare that to your last new car, the Mustang GT, which practically cost zero in depreciation over .. what was it, 18 months, 24 months?

andres3 · October 2015

henryn said:

qbrozen said:
Make no mistake, the other luxo models depreciate steeply, too. I've lost about $13k-$14k on my CTS in the first year of ownership (only that low thanks to discount). A comparable 550i is down roughly $20k (assuming I could have gotten about $5k off, which I'm totally guessing at). They have to heavily subsidize their leases, too.
Which puts you at about $1100 or $1200 a month, just in depreciation. Ouch!!!

And compare that to your last new car, the Mustang GT, which practically cost zero in depreciation over .. what was it, 18 months, 24 months?

Was that Mustang GT brand new? Hard to believe there wasn't depreciation on a "new" car.

qbrozen · October 2015

Mustang was new. It was about $4k over 18 mos.

As a percentage, the Stang was about 15% through 18 mos and the CTS about 26% through 10 mos.

flightnurse · October 2015

qbrozen said:
I'm obviously in the "undervalued" camp. Although I did get a significant discount on my CTS, which pushed the decision very far in Caddy's favor, I did compare to BMW and Jag (never made it to the Benz dealer) and, since I value performance, preferred the Caddy. Even if it was the same cost, I would have thought the CTS the better car, although it is possible the steeper depreciation would have swayed me if not for the discount.

Well GC got a hell of a discount on his CTS too. Best deal doesn't always mean best car.

flightnurse · October 2015

qbrozen said:
Make no mistake, the other luxo models depreciate steeply, too. I've lost about $13k-$14k on my CTS in the first year of ownership (only that low thanks to discount). A comparable 550i is down roughly $20k (assuming I could have gotten about $5k off, which I'm totally guessing at). They have to heavily subsidize their leases, too.

BNW has issues with the 550, but the other models are holding better, but we all know that BMW over inflates their residual on the leases. But if you take a M3 and ATS V-Sport I'm sure the BMW will have a higher sale value, the same could be said with the M5 and CTS V Sport.

qbrozen · October 2015

flightnurse said:

qbrozen said:
I'm obviously in the "undervalued" camp. Although I did get a significant discount on my CTS, which pushed the decision very far in Caddy's favor, I did compare to BMW and Jag (never made it to the Benz dealer) and, since I value performance, preferred the Caddy. Even if it was the same cost, I would have thought the CTS the better car, although it is possible the steeper depreciation would have swayed me if not for the discount.
Well GC got a hell of a discount on his CTS too. Best deal doesn't always mean best car.

Like I said, I got what I thought was the best car for me... I just happened to get the best deal on it, too.

I do think the M3 does pretty well, but the M5 drops pretty fast at first (new 2014 started at $93k and is worth $68k trade now vs $64k and $50k, respectively, for the CTS-V). I know AMGs suffer. We'll have to see what happens with the ATS-V.

henryn · October 2015

If you want to play with the big boys, you better bring your check book! (smile)

markcincinnati · October 2015

Most of the leases from the car companies themselves are sub-vented. The thing is, part of the formula is based on MSRP -- and while the mfgr can inflate the residual and reduce the money factor, the issue of the MSRP still makes certain calculations limited in outcome.

The good news,so to speak, is that these severely sub-vented leases make it possible to have a 5 series for a mo pay that one would think appropriate for a 3 series.

We did buy my wife's SQ5 and leased my S4; I put nothing down. As she approaches 50K miles she finds she cannot CPO the car, but can buy Audi extended mntce. I, on the other hand, can have my car CPO'd and buy the extended mntce. I'll have both low payments and a 100K warranty and prepaid mntce to 85K. By then I'll own the car outright and likely have been under mntce and warranty the whole time with a payment less than my wife's 66 month finance (which did require a down payment).

It is getting somewhat difficult to come up with a scenario where buy and hold is as attractive as lease and dump.

Our plan, unless new information changes things, is for me to buy my S4 off lease and for her to trade the SQ5 prior to 100K miles.

You know, my company just pays X amount every month for our IBM iSeries computer -- and every so often we get an upgrade to a newer faster bigger model. We'll be paying for the systems FOREVER but we'll always have full mntce and always have the latest and greatest computing power.

Maybe cars are like corporate computers. Line items on the budget -- X dollars per month, which seems to yield bigger and faster at every upgrade.

For $700+ (adjusted to keep pace with COL) per month forever, it appears I'll be able to have a new upgraded version of one of these ELLPS cars in perpetuity. That may seem not affordable at some point in time, and I know that time will likely come eventually. Mean time, it seems like keeping current with content and technology will be "situation normal."

Drive it like YOU live.

tlong · October 2015

markcincinnati said:

It is getting somewhat difficult to come up with a scenario where buy and hold is as attractive as lease and dump.

I suspect that's true in many cases - business deductions, or if you buy every 3 years or maybe even every 5.

Of course I'm a always over 100K kind of guy so buy and hold makes a lot more sense. I've had many cars over 100K and even over 150K. When I see people who've had like 20 cars in 30 years I'm amazed. I've been driving over 40 years and I'm on my 5th car!

roadburner · October 2015

tlong said:

I suspect that's true in many cases - business deductions, or if you buy every 3 years or maybe even every 5.

Of course I'm a always over 100K kind of guy so buy and hold makes a lot more sense. I've had many cars over 100K and even over 150K. When I see people who've had like 20 cars in 30 years I'm amazed. I've been driving over 40 years and I'm on my 5th car!

I don't suffer from Shiny Object Syndrome, I buy cars I really like and hold on to them. 20 years in the case of the Club Sport, 13 years in the case of the Wrangler, and 8 years in the case of the MS3. That said, I've still owned 20 cars over my 42 years of driving. For my current 5 car fleet I budget $425 per month for maintenance and repairs- I guess that's really stupid- I should probably just lease 3 cars and make payments of upwards of $2100 month; that way I'd certainly save money.

cdnpinhead · October 2015

Hmmm. In my 47 years of driving cars (only motorcycles until I was 20) I've had 7 that accumulated ~850K miles, with my 240Z's 224K miles the highest. So, there are three of us that do this sort of thing on here anyway. I'm not counting the 200K I put on my '71 KW, but those two years I was driving my car a lot less.

Sandman6472 · October 2015

My '15 Golf SE doe not have power start and after having it in a loaner, would really have liked to have it. Not sure what 2016 will show, but doubt they'll add it. Thinking one day all vehicles will have power start and keys will no longer be necessary.

The Sandman

flightnurse · October 2015

sandman_6472 said:
My '15 Golf SE doe not have power start and after having it in a loaner, would really have liked to have it. Not sure what 2016 will show, but doubt they'll add it. Thinking one day all vehicles will have power start and keys will no longer be necessary.

The Sandman

When you say "power start" do you mean "Remote Start" since all cars have power start.. BMW does not offer remote start on the 3,4 or 5 series cars, which is ashame living here in the desert, it is nice to be able to start your car before getting into to cool it off..

carnaught · October 2015

Maybe Sandy means keyless start.

Sandman6472 · October 2015

Yes, no button on the console like the Jetta I drove had...just pushed the button and the car started up. At first I didn't like it but after a couple of days, I loved it! Would be so much easier to not have to deal with a key at all!

The Sandman

markcincinnati · October 2015

Miscellaneous Topics

Is there a spreadsheet (that I don't have to create myself) available (on line) that allows the user to plug in numbers -- and make some assumptions regarding repair and mntce costs -- to come up with the "cost of ownership" for buying and holding (at least 5 years) vs leasing (for at least 3 years)? I'd appreciate a URL if anyone here knows of one.

I mentioned this before -- and it did have to do with a GM car in the spirit of full disclosure -- but my neighbor with 80K on his somewhat late model "paid for" Pontiac Bonneville was, according to him, making maintenance and repair payments that were not too far below his financing payments. He went ahead and got a new big-boy Dee-Lux CUV (Chevy) using the logic that if he was going to make payments on a crappy, unreliable, old car, why not make the same payments and be driving a new car with a warranty.

He also bought a super-nice Ford four door pickup truck (with what darn near looks like a car interior, only nicer) -- and plans to keep it until the wheels turn square. Perhaps Ford trucks are really hard to kill or wound.

Took my S4 in for the 35K service interval + a tire rotation last Thursday night; got an A7 with 5K miles on it; car was apparently a base model with 19" wheels, winter package (F/R heated seats, steering wheel) and LED headlights. For all intents and purposes, the window sticker I found in the glove box bottom lined at $69K. The option packages did not include the upgraded sound system, but, oddly Nav and voice command and BT communications and WiFi hotspot were all included. It also had premium paint (a kind of crystal black). Perhaps Premium+ doesn't merit a separate line item (which I thought odd, since there was an A6 Prestige on the showroom floor).

The A7 was sublime -- library quiet, supple, smooth -- the thing oozed from point A to point B. As Col Potter once said, "there aren't enough O's in smooth to describe it." Of course he was talking about some very old scotch whisky as I recall.

The upgraded wheels and tires (with all-season designation) were probably on the car for styling purposes since the car lacked the sport suspension option. But I hoped the A7 would be a true Luxury Performance Sedan -- especially for nearly $70K.

In a straight line and at triple digit speeds, the car was, to repeat, sublime. However, I really could not find much of that German Taught feel I assumed would be present. Oh hell, the thing seemed very close to mushy, with ample body roll and, despite quick turn-in, a huge tendency toward understeer at any slightly above posted limits upon entering a curve or twisty section of highway.

I had been, previously, loaned an A6 with all of the sport option boxes checked off and it seemed much much better than the A7.

The thing sure was purty however -- but not nearly $10K more beautiful than a comparable A6 -- and driving it although not exactly a chore, was, hmm, rather a disappointment.

I was able to pull into the dealer in the A7 and five minutes later drive out in my S4 -- the main straight line difference was that the S4 is not quite as quiet as the A7, but everything else about the S4 -- from the sound system to the sound of the engine at full cry -- was superior.

Now, then, however, would I have the need to drive myself and 3 passengers on a 100 mile trip to Columbus, Louisville or Indianapolis, well the extra rear seat leg room of the A7 would be appreciated.

I guess the S cars have the power to spoil (me at least). I simply would not pay the extra $13K for a relatively stripped A7 -- and if they were both $57K, the S4 would still be my first choice. Makes me wonder how much better, even, the B9 S4 will be over the A7's.

Drive it like you live.

carnaught · October 2015

Mark, I like your A7 review..thanks. My problem with it is that it is verrry low to the ground making egress especially interesting for some.

henryn · October 2015

markcincinnati said:
Miscellaneous Topics

He also bought a super-nice Ford four door pickup truck (with what darn near looks like a car interior, only nicer) -- and plans to keep it until the wheels turn square. Perhaps Ford trucks are really hard to kill or wound.

Well ... yes and no. I just purchased a new "Ford four door pickup truck (with what darn near looks like a car interior, only nicer)". I opted for the new for this year twin-turbo 2.7L engine, which is entirely unproven. (As to longevity, I mean.) If I had planned to keep the truck "until the wheels turn square", most likely would have opted for the old school V8 engine. With this particular engine (the twin turbo), if I were to decide to keep it past end of warranty, I will most likely spring for the extended factory warranty BEFORE the base warranty expires.

Just something about the first year for a brand new engine, especially a "twin turbo" design ...

andres3 · October 2015

markcincinnati said:
Miscellaneous Topics

Is there a spreadsheet (that I don't have to create myself) available (on line) that allows the user to plug in numbers -- and make some assumptions regarding repair and mntce costs -- to come up with the "cost of ownership" for buying and holding (at least 5 years) vs leasing (for at least 3 years)? I'd appreciate a URL if anyone here knows of one.

I mentioned this before -- and it did have to do with a GM car in the spirit of full disclosure -- but my neighbor with 80K on his somewhat late model "paid for" Pontiac Bonneville was, according to him, making maintenance and repair payments that were not too far below his financing payments. He went ahead and got a new big-boy Dee-Lux CUV (Chevy) using the logic that if he was going to make payments on a crappy, unreliable, old car, why not make the same payments and be driving a new car with a warranty.

He also bought a super-nice Ford four door pickup truck (with what darn near looks like a car interior, only nicer) -- and plans to keep it until the wheels turn square. Perhaps Ford trucks are really hard to kill or wound.

Took my S4 in for the 35K service interval + a tire rotation last Thursday night; got an A7 with 5K miles on it; car was apparently a base model with 19" wheels, winter package (F/R heated seats, steering wheel) and LED headlights. For all intents and purposes, the window sticker I found in the glove box bottom lined at $69K. The option packages did not include the upgraded sound system, but, oddly Nav and voice command and BT communications and WiFi hotspot were all included. It also had premium paint (a kind of crystal black). Perhaps Premium+ doesn't merit a separate line item (which I thought odd, since there was an A6 Prestige on the showroom floor).

The A7 was sublime -- library quiet, supple, smooth -- the thing oozed from point A to point B. As Col Potter once said, "there aren't enough O's in smooth to describe it." Of course he was talking about some very old scotch whisky as I recall.

The upgraded wheels and tires (with all-season designation) were probably on the car for styling purposes since the car lacked the sport suspension option. But I hoped the A7 would be a true Luxury Performance Sedan -- especially for nearly $70K.

In a straight line and at triple digit speeds, the car was, to repeat, sublime. However, I really could not find much of that German Taught feel I assumed would be present. Oh hell, the thing seemed very close to mushy, with ample body roll and, despite quick turn-in, a huge tendency toward understeer at any slightly above posted limits upon entering a curve or twisty section of highway.

I had been, previously, loaned an A6 with all of the sport option boxes checked off and it seemed much much better than the A7.

The thing sure was purty however -- but not nearly $10K more beautiful than a comparable A6 -- and driving it although not exactly a chore, was, hmm, rather a disappointment.

I was able to pull into the dealer in the A7 and five minutes later drive out in my S4 -- the main straight line difference was that the S4 is not quite as quiet as the A7, but everything else about the S4 -- from the sound system to the sound of the engine at full cry -- was superior.

Now, then, however, would I have the need to drive myself and 3 passengers on a 100 mile trip to Columbus, Louisville or Indianapolis, well the extra rear seat leg room of the A7 would be appreciated.

I guess the S cars have the power to spoil (me at least). I simply would not pay the extra $13K for a relatively stripped A7 -- and if they were both $57K, the S4 would still be my first choice. Makes me wonder how much better, even, the B9 S4 will be over the A7's.

Drive it like you live.

I just got my 35K mile service at 34K miles (did it early). I did it early mainly due to the fact I skipped/missed my 30K mile oil change. Don't listen to Audi if you plan on keeping the car a long time; best advice is change the oil every 5K miles no matter how good the oil is. If you plan on not keeping it much past the 50K warranty, then Audi's advice to do 10K maintenance intervals is sound. Otherwise, the best advice I've received is that it is not a good idea to skimp.

What did your 35K S4 service include?

I told them to include the engine air filter whether it said to do it or not. They also did my cabin air filter, the motor oil, and I asked for a front brake service including new fluid as my pads were starting to scratch metal on metal on 1/2" ring just a week before my scheduled service (took two weeks to get into this shop from when I called; they are too good and popular and busy as a result!). Rotors when correctly priced even the large fronts were only $125 each, but still a hard pill to swallow twice now for me (due to track-use). This time, (unlike the first which was totally my fault for ignoring the sensor lights), I didn't get all the dummy light sensors warning me my pads were low; might need to ask Audi why the brake pad sensors didn't warn me and to pony up for the rotors as a result

Also need to ask my shop again what the diagnosis/theory is for the failure of the sensors to warn me I was scoring my rotors with metal on metal contact. Perhaps the pads were unevenly worn from overheating during 100+ degree track days; causing the lack of warning. Need to follow up with them. My front pads are not really meant to be track abused more than probably 1 weekend (they were put through 2 as well as 19,000 miles).

CR came out with 2014/15 results of the most reliable Car brands, and Audi as real-world observance between you and I seems to agree with, is at the top of the chart along with a couple others for good reason. Impeccably built, quality controlled, and constructed is what comes to mind as the right words.

I was charged 2.1 hours for 35K service which included the oil/filter, air filter, cabin pollen filter, brake fluid flush, & inspection.
Charged 1.5 hours to replace the front rotors and pads.

flightnurse · October 2015

andres3 said:

I just got my 35K mile service at 34K miles (did it early). I did it early mainly due to the fact I skipped/missed my 30K mile oil change. Don't listen to Audi if you plan on keeping the car a long time; best advice is change the oil every 5K miles no matter how good the oil is. If you plan on not keeping it much past the 50K warranty, then Audi's advice to do 10K maintenance intervals is sound. Otherwise, the best advice I've received is that it is not a good idea to skimp.

So why not follow manufacture recommended service? What do you know that others don't?

flightnurse · October 2015

Mark in regards to the A7, I think it's one of Audi's better designed cars, I would love to have one myself. But not too sure what packages I would want on it, sport package would high on the list.

roadburner · October 2015

It's a bit like apples and oranges, but I have over 20 UOAs on my MS3 and they indicate that M1 5W-30 is good for at least 10k miles in that application, and note that DI turbos are supposed to be particularly hard on oil. And M1 0W-40 is fine for 10k miles in the M54 in my son's X3.

markcincinnati · October 2015

Both my wife and I have the Audi Advantage Pre-paid program; however, we have an oil and filter (and check up overall) performed EVERY 5,000 miles, meaning we pay for every other interval and the odd intervals are paid for as part of the Audi Advantage.

The cost of these additional services is minimal and, if you plan on keeping the car beyond 50,000 miles is very inexpensive "insurance."

Of course you can elect to keep the 10K interval and for all I know things will be fine -- we have decided at this time we want to be MORE THAN FINE and figured doubling up on the oil and filter changes is worth doing.

We are, too, planning on buying the service packs at 45K which will provide no charge services at 55K and 65K. We will, however, keep up the every other interval (meaning double) practice.

Mine (the S4) can be CPO's prior to 50K miles which will extend the warranty to 100K miles -- my wife's, since we own it, cannot be CPO'd, but we're going to run the risk of something bad happening and go "naked" after 50K on the SQ5. The plan, currently, is to trade the SQ5 around 90K, since a BIG HIT in depreciation happens when you drive the car off the lot and again at close to 100K.

We may or may not lease the replacement for the SQ5 and I may or may not buy my next one -- however, at this point, I do plan to buy my S4 off lease.

Plans are nothing. . . .

Planning is everything . . . .

Drive it like you live.

roadburner · October 2015

Have you had a UOA performed at 5,000 miles? If not, how do you know that changing the oil at that mileage provides "insurance"?

cdnpinhead · October 2015

OMG -- Fact-based analysis. What's the world coming to?

andres3 · October 2015

flightnurse said:

andres3 said:

I just got my 35K mile service at 34K miles (did it early). I did it early mainly due to the fact I skipped/missed my 30K mile oil change. Don't listen to Audi if you plan on keeping the car a long time; best advice is change the oil every 5K miles no matter how good the oil is. If you plan on not keeping it much past the 50K warranty, then Audi's advice to do 10K maintenance intervals is sound. Otherwise, the best advice I've received is that it is not a good idea to skimp.

So why not follow manufacture recommended service? What do you know that others don't?

I know what not one but two highly trusted mechanic's/shop manager's said.

I also know that manufacturer's have a built-in incentive to make cars last as long as the warranty, but no longer. Planned obsolescence forces you to buy more new cars more frequently. This strategy works great except some manufacturer's have the decency to have the experience of their customer's more in mind rather than just the short-term bottom line. Also, a lot of luxury companies still offer either free maintenance, or try to sell discounted packaged pre-paid maintenance. It's a lot cheaper and easier to sell if you can say 50K miles of maintenance, and only have 5 service visits. They only need to make it last the term of the warranty, or the lease. An owner might have other desires and concerns.

stickguy · October 2015

didn't the BMW service intervals jump right when they started paying for the service? I'm sure it was pure coincidence!

andres3 · October 2015

roadburner said:
Have you had a UOA performed at 5,000 miles? If not, how do you know that changing the oil at that mileage provides "insurance"?

I guess you can't know for sure, but what line in the sand results from a UOA would you use? Some people might draw their line in the sand more stringently, and of course, driving conditions and habits can change any individual's results, even with the same car and oil.

flightnurse · October 2015

stickguy said:
didn't the BMW service intervals jump right when they started paying for the service? I'm sure it was pure coincidence!

BMW uses synthetic oil, and the study's shows that synthetic oil last longer so why change the oil when not necessary.

stickguy · October 2015

Well, still hard to imagine that 14-15K is good, but could be.

my point was, the intervals were much shorter (5k?), until BMW starting covering it, at which time the interval jumped to 10K+. For the same engines. So either they were ripping people off (or letting their dealers do it!), and stopped when it was on their dime, or they significantly cut the confidence cushion!

dino001 · October 2015

stickguy said:
Well, still hard to imagine that 14-15K is good, but could be.

my point was, the intervals were much shorter (5k?), until BMW starting covering it, at which time the interval jumped to 10K+. For the same engines. So either they were ripping people off (or letting their dealers do it!), and stopped when it was on their dime, or they significantly cut the confidence cushion!

They have the "condition based" service, which is capped at 1 year. They lowered the mileage cap to 12k, I think. Condition based service is calculated by the computer based on driving severity. The only thing it doesn't take into account is environment. They don't have oil sensors (I don't think anybody does), so if it gets dusty or contaminated, you wouldn't know it.

flightnurse · October 2015

Dino I think the computer can take into account max temp.. My service intervals are less during summer months

markcincinnati · October 2015

Here's my statement: I change the oil, at the dealer, every 5,000 miles. For all I know it is a waste of money, not any real "insurance" whatsoever. The 10K intervals are based on several factors, one being that these cars do have large oil capacities. My wife's Infiniti suggested oil change intervals of 3,750 with non syn oil. We changed the oil on that one every 7,500 and used full syn oil.

Maybe this is snake oil, so to speak.

I have no insider info that says 5K changes are necessary. Logic only leads me to the conclusion that 5K intervals cannot hurt and MAY help with engine lifespan.

I really like my S4. There is, at this point, no known US availability date for the B9 S4. I figure I need to keep my current car probably another 2 years. I have every incentive, therefore, to HOLD onto this S4 -- and god knows repairs to German cars are breathtakingly expensive.

So, I figure it this way, "what the heck, twice as many oil changes have no material downside."

If you follow the mfgr's representations pertaining to mntce, you are certainly OK within the OEM warranty period.

Said it before: Drive it like YOU live.

roadburner · October 2015

andres3 said:

I guess you can't know for sure, but what line in the sand results from a UOA would you use? Some people might draw their line in the sand more stringently, and of course, driving conditions and habits can change any individual's results, even with the same car and oil.

If the TBN is over 1.5 and wear metals(aluminum, copper, iron, lead) are tracking within about 25% of universal averages(adjusted for mileage) I would think that your oil is probably being changed too early. Aside from the break in period and the variable valve timing actuator TSB the UOAs from my MS3 have been remarkably consistent- even when the car has seen the track.
As for long-term reliability, the MS3 is currently at 156k and the X3 is knocking on 180k.

andres3 · October 2015

roadburner said:

andres3 said:

I guess you can't know for sure, but what line in the sand results from a UOA would you use? Some people might draw their line in the sand more stringently, and of course, driving conditions and habits can change any individual's results, even with the same car and oil.
If the TBN is over 1.5 and wear metals(aluminum, copper, iron, lead) are tracking within about 25% of universal averages(adjusted for mileage) I would think that your oil is probably being changed too early. Aside from the break in period and the variable valve timing actuator TSB the UOAs from my MS3 have been remarkably consistent- even when the car has seen the track.
As for long-term reliability, the MS3 is currently at 156k and the X3 is knocking on 180k.

Any issues with needed sludge and carbon deposits/build-up cleaned? Injector, induction, and other cleanings? I know my A3 seemed much more lively after one of these services, but it was no Jiffy Lube job, it was a serious induction system cleaning.

roadburner · October 2015

I run a bottle of Techron through the MS3 every 3k miles; no other "cleanings." In-gear acceleration times have remained consistent since 40k miles so I don't see a need for any other treatments.

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