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Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
As I look at the posts here, I notice there are some of us who have thousands of posts, some have dozens. I could be wrong, but I also assume there are people (and I have been one from time to time) who lurk, but don't post. Moreover, I also assume there are folks who may research (and dream about) their next vehicle using the manufacturer's web sites. The problem with doing that is that those sites are entirely marketing oriented -- there is nothing that could provoke "other brand (and maybe even other model) thinking."
This is one of the key benefits of participating in an Edmund's Forum -- you may be provoked.
One of the most popular classes of cars is the class that is discussed in this very forum, ELLPS -- but even within our ranks we differ on what is or is not EL (entry level). I often argue that EL pertains most to the basic chassis (grossly, the "size"). This means a BMW 3 series, no matter how modest or how out there (in any way you wish to construe this) is an ELLPS car (meaning I would include an M3 unless or until some more granular classification is heartily adopted by folks who flock to Edmunds.)
I found it difficult -- but I acknowledge other's POVs -- to consider two Acura's, for instance, built on separate wheelbases/chassis to be candidates for ELLPS classification. Likewise, I have difficulty considering, again as an example, both the A3 and A4 offerings from Audi to be considered in the same class. Again, my rationale is more size (length and width, i.e.) derived than MSRP or HP or torque, derived. Also, I think a certain Premium-ness is required to be in this club.
Recently, there have been "trial" balloons loosed suggesting that the A3 family, now that there is an S3 available, merits inclusion in the ELLPS category. Folks [some] suggest that the acceleration numbers put forth by the S3, since they are a few tenths of a second less than that of an S4, render the S4 a good candidate to be passed over when one is shopping in the over $45,000 category. After all, a balls-to-the-wall S3 can be had for something in the $51,000 neighborhood and a maxed out S4 can command $10,000 more. Why bother paying more is the either stated or implied thought.
Having two late model Audis gives both my wife and me multiple chances to "legitimately" test-drive almost every car in the Audi lineup, since they are all in the loaner fleet. I may have mentioned my wife got to be the very first user of a 2016 A8L for 24-hours while her SQ5 was in for new shoes and an all-wheel alignment and oil+filter change. Last week, my turn came in the form of an A7 (which, I must say, I was underwhelmed with).
Couple these multiple legitimate test drives with the hobby test drives we repeat Audi customers are afforded, and you might be able to grant that the missus and I are very well qualified [amateur] Audi experts.
With this as a backdrop, I must tell you about yet another S3 experience we've had and the conclusions that can be drawn vis a vis the S4.
Being quicker to 60mph . . . see next post.
There is a lot to like about the S3. There is a whole lot to like about the S3 if you've not driven an S4. The pricing of the S3 does seem, if you go to a dealer that has both S3's and S4's on the showroom floor, difficult to justify -- again if you've driven (or own, especially) a B8 S4 post 2012, for instance.
I found the S3 to be a bit quicker than the S4 (both cars are equally fast) -- or it felt that way, perhaps -- at the slow speeds. But the S4 with the DSG in "S" mode, does seem to be able to get things done in a more sorted, I would say "better" fashion; the S4 is noticably smoother and, yes, does things with a feeling that it does have more urge, than the S3. This may be a function of the extra gear, I dunno.
The S3 seemed to dart -- perhaps it seems to "flinch" when the wheel is turned. That reaction certainly is indicative of some level of responsiveness, but I did find the S4, even when set to dynamic mode, to be responsive without flinching.
The S3 felt light -- and that is a good thing. But when you close (er, slam) the doors on the S3 (vs the S4), the sound is slightly tinny, evoking some sense that I can only say reminds me of my 2012 Acura TL SH-AWD Advance: flimsy. Please note -- I am not saying the S3 is flimsy. It does "sound" decidedly less solid than the S4 when the doors are slammed however.
For short trips, the S3 was a blast to drive -- but on the frost-heaved Interstate highways we have here in SW Ohio, any speed less than 80 was choppy, harsh almost. In contrast the S4 at 70 over the same surface just feels solid and "firm."
The S4 at any speed under 100 (I couldn't get the real estate to get the S3 over 100 on our crowded Interstates here in Cincinnati) is quieter, one could almost call the S4 luxurious, smooth, supple, etc. The S4 feels like a premium car from just about any perspective I can think of -- while the S3 seems like every surface that you can touch is a bit thinner, hinting at being brittle, in fact. The S3 is made of good stuff, but the stuff feels a bit more economy class, than premium class, however,
The thing is, I do like the S3, but it almost seems like it should have been brought out first (in its present iteration) under the VW logo, rather than under the four-rings.
I took a second drive in a balls-to-the-wall equipped version of an S3 and found a drive around the interstate surrounding Cincinnati (I-275) to be almost punishing -- especially at any speeds under 80. The S3 is a modern day buck-board when equipped with the largest wheels/tires (in summer config) and with the Audi-Drive-Select set to Dynamic.
Yes it is a very high-end go-kart. And, to me, a very high-priced one at that.
My 2014 S4 has its faults -- and it was $57K+, nearly $7K more than the S3, that is -- but the S3 needs to go to finishing school to shed some of its harsher edges. Hell, it can even keep some of the "boy-racer" characteristics, since I am of the opinion that I don't want the S3 to be a substitute for an S4, anymore than I want the S4 to be a substitute for an S6.
The S3 may be -- in fact the statistics seem to say that it is -- quicker than an S4 (not faster, quicker), but I am not looking for Audi to produce a WRX or WRX STI (not that there is anything wrong with those Subaru models). I am looking for Audi to produce and market Premium and even perhaps Super-Premium Luxury Performance cars.
In some respects the S3 doesn't represent that ideal as much as the marketing materials proclaim.
If you have an S3 and love it -- I congratulate you and do understand how you could be justified in feeling that way.
This long-time Audi maven, however, thinks the S3 should be sent, IMMEDIATELY, to finishing school or that the price should be cut about 15%. Being quicker than an S4 just isn't enough.
DILYL
Alternatively, when I sit in something like a current Mazda 3 that is loaded, it feels like a "cheap car that's really nice".
I actually think I prefer the latter. So I get what you are saying about the S3 vs. S4. It's not just about speed, it's also about quality and refinement.
People who want speed, alone, can get a Mustang or a Subaru WRX and forget the refinement. Supposedly you go to Audi for some luxury and refinement as well. So yes, the A3/S3 seems a bit like a cheapening of the brand, just like the new baby Mercedes. Moving downscale to try and get a different audience, but in the long term do these types of vehicles damage their brands, and are they really luxury (even entry level) any more?
The flip side argument about refinement and cheaper feeling S3 is that $7K ain't chicken-feed, so the delta in cost has to come from somewhere, no?
I like the phrase: "cheap car that's really nice" -- unfortunately, I can't say I thought the feel of the S3 was in keeping with the rest of the Audi lineup we get here in the US.
I read an article about the ways mfgrs approach cutting costs -- one of the mentioned ways was that a car company can elect to make the surfaces you see, but don't touch often, much thinner or with a lower grade of whatever material the surface is made of; also the "glove box" can be made of a cardboard like material and so forth.
The S3 seemed much more like every "trick" in the book to drive cost down was used, much moreso than the other Audis and BMWs we have had since 1977. My 2014 S4, by contrast simply feels more substantial.
Now, then, I have not seen the upcoming B9 A4/S4 family coming in 2016; and, it is possible, certainly, that it may have adopted the wring cost out "attitude" the A3 family seems to have embraced. If so, more's the pity.
Also, the new "el cheapo" economy Mercedes (below the C class) seems, too, like a cheapening of the brand.
For these companies, I would suggest they look at a similar (failed) attempt to bring out "lower cost" representations of the brand by BMW.
I think I, too, would rather have "a cheap car that's really nice".
Perhaps Mercedes can't bring out a non-Mercedes brand, "economy car," but Audi, I think, should have brought out the A3 as a nicer VW than a not-as-nice Audi.
In our market, Toyota got it and came out with the Lexus brand, Honda the Acura brand and Nissan the Infiniti brand. For years, too, GM saw the market approach that seemed to work was to "always have another brand to aspire to" starting with Chevy and topping out at Cadillac. I understand the Buick Regal GS is a very competent, "nice", car -- but I also believe GM doesn't have, in the Regal, a Cadillac ATS clone.
When the accountants (so it was said) started to rule the day, we started seeing badge engineering -- and while platform sharing does make some sense, taken to extremes, it can also sound the death knell for a previously great brand. Does anyone here really care that Ford dropped Mercury a few short years ago? There was, really, nothing special about them compared to their virtual twin Ford models. There was a time, however, that Mercury was different, some would say special, more special than a Ford.
Lincoln is probably still on the endangered species list for similar reasons. At least Cadillac, to name one, has differentiated itself from Chevy and Buick. Had it not, we could very well have started carving Cadillac's tombstone.
Mercedes and Audi, for example, may have started on a slippery slope as my attorney friends like to say.
Does Rolex make any "economy class" time pieces?
Check out Infinity's cardboard loose in the track feeling moon roof cover. Now check out your S4 moon roof sliding cover. Night and day. Check out the lack of aluminum sills on the rear doors of the Infinity. Check out the trunk. Check out the way the finish is where the roof rails would go.
I was prowling my BMW dealer's used car lot today and found an Estoril Blue 2013 F30 335i M Sport. At first I thought it was the xDrive automatic that they have had a bit of trouble unloading, but it turns out that this is a one owner local car that was just traded- and-incredibly-it's RWD and has a manual transmission. It also has most every available option, including M Sport brakes as well as the M Performance aerodynamics. Don't know the price, mileage, or CPO status, but the car may be worth considering. It's nowhere near as quick as I'd prefer, but that can be fixed easily enough. I had whittled my choices down to a 2013 Boss 302, a new Mustang GT Premium with the Performance Package, and the new WRX STI. Now this shows up to possibly muddy the waters.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
It is possible to pick up a "higher end" Tissot with about every modern watch feature and function (complications) known to humans -- and the thing will cost hundreds of dollars (and is often discounted on top of that).
It is virtually impossible to pick up a "lower end" Breitling that has only a date a sweep second hand function for under $2,000. Far as I know they both will tell time equally well and both will last for decades, lifetimes even.
Tissots, even ones studded with diamonds, are not considered high-end watches. A watch super-store such as Tourneau sells Rolex, Movado, Tag and also sells Bulova, Seiko and Tissot -- if a Tourneau outlet is near you, check out the brands, perhaps you'll see what I'm referring to. The Rolex is to BMW as Seiko or Tissot is to the Genesis. The market perceives what it perceives. And in the instance of BMW vs Genesis like Rolex and Seiko, "Perception is Reality."
Dimensions, decibels at 70MPH, number of speakers in the sound system, suppleness of ride or even country of origin doesn't change -- or hasn't thus far changed -- the reality that the Genesis is not currently considered an LPS vehicle; indeed, it is also not, yet, considered an ELLPS vehicle.
It, the Genesis, is a "cheap car that's really nice"[sic].
Similarly, the Toyota Avalon isn't a Lexus -- probably for the same perception reason. My feelings of consternation regarding the A3 vs the rest of the Audi lineup (or, similarly, the entry level Mercedes vs the other Merc's) still stands. Likewise: My belief that Tissot makes timepieces that equal Breitling's products, insofar as their ability to keep time, also stands -- but I don't for a minute think that Tissot or Seiko, etc, are high-end Premium watches.
Genesis' cars, no matter how feature laden, no matter how statistically similar, etc, are not in the same class as BMW's. The market's perception, not mine, not yours -- currently indicating BMW is LPS and Genesis is not -- is reality.
Maybe there will be a reversal of fortune for both of these successful companies -- thus far, there is scant evidence of that. Perhaps, however, Genesis will -- eventually -- come to be perceived as a Premium Car.
Time(pieces) will tell.
drivewear...Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
Now, I was impressed enough with her S3 that I returned to the Audi dealership and bought my S4 a few weeks later. And, after a few months of driving my S4 and having ample seat time in her S3....I'd agree, for the most part, with @markcincinnati regarding the difference in luxury between the two.
In fact, and I posted this on the CCBA forum too, this S4 may be my favorite car I've owned. The balance between the sporty dynamic and luxury is impressive. To me, it feels like it falls in between two of my previous cars - an e90 335i and an f10 535i, offering most of the comfort of the 5 and most of the sport of the 3. Sort of a Goldilocks "just right" choice.
I had debated between the great DSG and the manual, but in the end, I figured if Audi was still gonna offer the manual, I was gonna stick with they dying breed. And it is a great manual trannie - very "easy" to drive in traffic and for me, really adds to the overall experience. Not that there aren't times in my long work commute that I would prefer a nice auto, but I'll take advantage of it now while it's still being offered - doubt it will be for much longer.
2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2024 Corvette - 2024 BMW X5 - 2023 Tesla Model Y
Luckily, I don't worry or care about what others think about what I drive or where I live. Sure I would've liked to have bought a nicer vehicle like the A3 but didn't want to live beyond our means like so many folks do and I drive too many miles to lease. But, since I never looked into leasing and the payoff once it's up, maybe I could've gone the A3 route. Maybe next time...who knows!!
The Sandman
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
The cars we like are liked by us, because WE like them, not because we might have to explain to our buddies that we're driving a Genesis made by Hyundai -- or a whatever made by whomever.
My thesis was simply, don't change the brand. The downmarket Rolex is NOT called a Rolex -- I simply don't think an A3, TODAY, or the CLA, TODAY, should be Audi branded or Mercedes branded. Maybe these models will rapidly rise so as to fit in the family.
At this point, if I can get my hands on a new S4 in a year or two -- and it has not been pushed down in some way -- I really don't mind the A3/S3 being what I think, TODAY, should be a member of the VW family.
Evenutually, however, if the A3 foreshadows a decline, well, I may have to reconsider.
I looked at some "high end" KIA's today. They are feature rich and very attractive,. They seem high value -- a nice, no very nice, cheap car. But, and it is probably me, I cannot see myself driving a car with KIA on the steering wheel -- I just keep seeing Killed In Action. Of course when I see a Toyota with TRD on it, I see "turd," and I just can't imagine "what were they thinking?"
I guess the phrase, to each his/her own, leaps to mind, too.
In regards to my original Mazda 3 comment, I'm just kind of a value buyer and to me Mazda is what Honda used to be - sporty and high value. To me a fully loaded $30K or so Mazda 3 (what I categorize as "a cheap car that feels nice") would provide the driving dynamics and still luxury interior and features that would be more pleasing (to me) than a much more stripped A3 at a similar price that is "a nice car that feels cheap".
I've owned an Audi in the past and to me the A3 is just a bit too downmarket for the brand. At the time I bought my A4 with a 6 cylinder, sport package, manual tranny, in 1998, the A4 was the "value choice" as compared to the BMW 3-series of the day. Having gotten that out of my system, next car I get doesn't need to have that badge any more. I'm milking the miles out of my Acura TL but in the next couple of years it will be time to choose again.
To be fair though, the overall interior quality is inferior, in some measure, to the A3/S3. The Mazda is certainly on par, if not superior, to its peers, but you are indeed getting something for the extra cost of even the entry-level Audi.
2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2024 Corvette - 2024 BMW X5 - 2023 Tesla Model Y
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
There is still a difference between "prestige" cars and those whose badge carries no particular cachet. Therein lies the difference between a BMW 1-Series, or an Audi A3 and a Hyundai Genesis, however lavishly equipped.
Since prestige is based on brand image it may not seem like a valid distinction but "perception is reality". Every single one of you knows the difference.
Perhaps the name of this topic should be "Entry Level Prestige Performance Cars".
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
The new 2016 Civic will be available with a 174HP 1.5L turbo ... not too far off from the 180HP available in the 320i.
Given that BMW is moving away from the 'sport sedan' feeling they are famous for, what really is the difference between the two?
Drive wheels - Civic is FWD; BMW is RWD
Anything else?
I've always wanted to own a luxury (or "prestige") make, but I'm finding it harder and harder to justify the $5-10-15K premium when the driving experience is really pretty much the same.
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2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2014 MINI Countryman S ALL4
There is a reason why some cars cost more, and it isn't just because of the drive wheels or the badge. Do you think it costs MB the same money to build a turbo CLA as it will cost Honda to build a turbo Civic? I seriously doubt it.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
I just think the entry level arena has gotten very murky. Mucho overlap.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Stick - can they? Sure. They haven't just yet, as far as I know. Most manufacturers build to a pricepoint. They wanted a $30k MB, so they built one they could sell for $30k.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
I think your typical Audi driver would know immediately upon pressing the accelerator that something was amiss if you rebadged a Mazda 3 as an Audi.
I think your typical Audi driver would know immediately upon pressing the accelerator that something was amiss if you rebadged a Mazda 3 as an Audi.
The main thing I've noticed is the S4 has long legs. Whereas the 2.0T starts to run out of steam at 90 MPH, the S4 will get you to 120 MPH + in not too many heartbeats.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Full disclosure, front tire inflation 43, rear 41 psi.
I use cruise control, my wife doesn't.
Perhaps other companies produce cars with engines that reboot themselves several times over their lifespans, until I started driving Audis, however, I never noticed this being the case, however.
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2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2014 MINI Countryman S ALL4
Mazda 3
2 litre
155 HP
150 Torks
2931 lbs.
19 lbs/HP
Audi A3
1.8T
170 HP
200 Torks
3175 lbs.
19 lbs/HP
IMHO, the vast majority of us would not notice any difference.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
a better word (that you used) IMO is "prestige". Audi is more prestige than Mazda. Volvo traveled in the Prestige area to an extent.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.