Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

markcincinnati · October 2015

roadburner - We have become true believers in using only Top-Tier gasolines -- and now that Costco participates in that designation (and we have two Costco fuel locations fairly close to home), even the prices for TTG aren't shocking anymore.

roadburner · October 2015

Yes; I've use Top Tier fuel in everything save the Jeep for years.

markcincinnati · October 2015

Inculcation

As I look at the posts here, I notice there are some of us who have thousands of posts, some have dozens. I could be wrong, but I also assume there are people (and I have been one from time to time) who lurk, but don't post. Moreover, I also assume there are folks who may research (and dream about) their next vehicle using the manufacturer's web sites. The problem with doing that is that those sites are entirely marketing oriented -- there is nothing that could provoke "other brand (and maybe even other model) thinking."

This is one of the key benefits of participating in an Edmund's Forum -- you may be provoked.

One of the most popular classes of cars is the class that is discussed in this very forum, ELLPS -- but even within our ranks we differ on what is or is not EL (entry level). I often argue that EL pertains most to the basic chassis (grossly, the "size"). This means a BMW 3 series, no matter how modest or how out there (in any way you wish to construe this) is an ELLPS car (meaning I would include an M3 unless or until some more granular classification is heartily adopted by folks who flock to Edmunds.)

I found it difficult -- but I acknowledge other's POVs -- to consider two Acura's, for instance, built on separate wheelbases/chassis to be candidates for ELLPS classification. Likewise, I have difficulty considering, again as an example, both the A3 and A4 offerings from Audi to be considered in the same class. Again, my rationale is more size (length and width, i.e.) derived than MSRP or HP or torque, derived. Also, I think a certain Premium-ness is required to be in this club.

Recently, there have been "trial" balloons loosed suggesting that the A3 family, now that there is an S3 available, merits inclusion in the ELLPS category. Folks [some] suggest that the acceleration numbers put forth by the S3, since they are a few tenths of a second less than that of an S4, render the S4 a good candidate to be passed over when one is shopping in the over $45,000 category. After all, a balls-to-the-wall S3 can be had for something in the $51,000 neighborhood and a maxed out S4 can command $10,000 more. Why bother paying more is the either stated or implied thought.

Having two late model Audis gives both my wife and me multiple chances to "legitimately" test-drive almost every car in the Audi lineup, since they are all in the loaner fleet. I may have mentioned my wife got to be the very first user of a 2016 A8L for 24-hours while her SQ5 was in for new shoes and an all-wheel alignment and oil+filter change. Last week, my turn came in the form of an A7 (which, I must say, I was underwhelmed with).

Couple these multiple legitimate test drives with the hobby test drives we repeat Audi customers are afforded, and you might be able to grant that the missus and I are very well qualified [amateur] Audi experts.

With this as a backdrop, I must tell you about yet another S3 experience we've had and the conclusions that can be drawn vis a vis the S4.

Being quicker to 60mph . . . see next post.

markcincinnati · October 2015

Being quicker to 60mph

There is a lot to like about the S3. There is a whole lot to like about the S3 if you've not driven an S4. The pricing of the S3 does seem, if you go to a dealer that has both S3's and S4's on the showroom floor, difficult to justify -- again if you've driven (or own, especially) a B8 S4 post 2012, for instance.

I found the S3 to be a bit quicker than the S4 (both cars are equally fast) -- or it felt that way, perhaps -- at the slow speeds. But the S4 with the DSG in "S" mode, does seem to be able to get things done in a more sorted, I would say "better" fashion; the S4 is noticably smoother and, yes, does things with a feeling that it does have more urge, than the S3. This may be a function of the extra gear, I dunno.

The S3 seemed to dart -- perhaps it seems to "flinch" when the wheel is turned. That reaction certainly is indicative of some level of responsiveness, but I did find the S4, even when set to dynamic mode, to be responsive without flinching.

The S3 felt light -- and that is a good thing. But when you close (er, slam) the doors on the S3 (vs the S4), the sound is slightly tinny, evoking some sense that I can only say reminds me of my 2012 Acura TL SH-AWD Advance: flimsy. Please note -- I am not saying the S3 is flimsy. It does "sound" decidedly less solid than the S4 when the doors are slammed however.

For short trips, the S3 was a blast to drive -- but on the frost-heaved Interstate highways we have here in SW Ohio, any speed less than 80 was choppy, harsh almost. In contrast the S4 at 70 over the same surface just feels solid and "firm."

The S4 at any speed under 100 (I couldn't get the real estate to get the S3 over 100 on our crowded Interstates here in Cincinnati) is quieter, one could almost call the S4 luxurious, smooth, supple, etc. The S4 feels like a premium car from just about any perspective I can think of -- while the S3 seems like every surface that you can touch is a bit thinner, hinting at being brittle, in fact. The S3 is made of good stuff, but the stuff feels a bit more economy class, than premium class, however,

The thing is, I do like the S3, but it almost seems like it should have been brought out first (in its present iteration) under the VW logo, rather than under the four-rings.

I took a second drive in a balls-to-the-wall equipped version of an S3 and found a drive around the interstate surrounding Cincinnati (I-275) to be almost punishing -- especially at any speeds under 80. The S3 is a modern day buck-board when equipped with the largest wheels/tires (in summer config) and with the Audi-Drive-Select set to Dynamic.

Yes it is a very high-end go-kart. And, to me, a very high-priced one at that.

My 2014 S4 has its faults -- and it was $57K+, nearly $7K more than the S3, that is -- but the S3 needs to go to finishing school to shed some of its harsher edges. Hell, it can even keep some of the "boy-racer" characteristics, since I am of the opinion that I don't want the S3 to be a substitute for an S4, anymore than I want the S4 to be a substitute for an S6.

The S3 may be -- in fact the statistics seem to say that it is -- quicker than an S4 (not faster, quicker), but I am not looking for Audi to produce a WRX or WRX STI (not that there is anything wrong with those Subaru models). I am looking for Audi to produce and market Premium and even perhaps Super-Premium Luxury Performance cars.

In some respects the S3 doesn't represent that ideal as much as the marketing materials proclaim.

If you have an S3 and love it -- I congratulate you and do understand how you could be justified in feeling that way.

This long-time Audi maven, however, thinks the S3 should be sent, IMMEDIATELY, to finishing school or that the price should be cut about 15%. Being quicker than an S4 just isn't enough.

DILYL

tlong · October 2015

When I sat in the A3 sedan, it felt kind of like a "nice car that was cheap" if that makes any sense. (referring to quality as opposed to price). My 1998 A4 was about the same size as the current A3 sedan but the older A4 was a much nicer car inside.

Alternatively, when I sit in something like a current Mazda 3 that is loaded, it feels like a "cheap car that's really nice".

I actually think I prefer the latter. So I get what you are saying about the S3 vs. S4. It's not just about speed, it's also about quality and refinement.

People who want speed, alone, can get a Mustang or a Subaru WRX and forget the refinement. Supposedly you go to Audi for some luxury and refinement as well. So yes, the A3/S3 seems a bit like a cheapening of the brand, just like the new baby Mercedes. Moving downscale to try and get a different audience, but in the long term do these types of vehicles damage their brands, and are they really luxury (even entry level) any more?

carnaught · October 2015

"...S4 has its faults -- and it was $57K+, nearly $7K more than the S3..."

The flip side argument about refinement and cheaper feeling S3 is that $7K ain't chicken-feed, so the delta in cost has to come from somewhere, no?

rbirns1 · October 2015

It should be simple. Entry level luxury is the lowest priced models of luxury makes.

flightnurse · October 2015

rbirns1 said:
It should be simple. Entry level luxury is the lowest priced models of luxury makes.

Priced as MSRP or payments? Just saw an ad here in Phoenix for a 2015 Hyundai Geneses sedan for $299/m or BMW 320i for $259/m

rbirns1 · October 2015

flightnurse said:

rbirns1 said:
It should be simple. Entry level luxury is the lowest priced models of luxury makes.
Priced as MSRP or payments? Just saw an ad here in Phoenix for a 2015 Hyundai Geneses sedan for $299/m or BMW 320i for $259/m

Genesis, nice as it may be, is really stretching the definition since Hyundai is not a luxury make. 3-series is clearly entry-level luxury.

markcincinnati · October 2015

carnaught said:
"...S4 has its faults -- and it was $57K+, nearly $7K more than the S3..."

The flip side argument about refinement and cheaper feeling S3 is that $7K ain't chicken-feed, so the delta in cost has to come from somewhere, no?

Point taken, but my sense is that the S3 was, much more of an economy class vehicle -- hence my remark that this freshman effort might have been better if it had come out from the VW side of the house. Even a sub-$50K S4 has a substantially more solid feel; and the look at the interior one enjoys and can touch and feel from behind the wheel is, well, Premium.

I like the phrase: "cheap car that's really nice" -- unfortunately, I can't say I thought the feel of the S3 was in keeping with the rest of the Audi lineup we get here in the US.

I read an article about the ways mfgrs approach cutting costs -- one of the mentioned ways was that a car company can elect to make the surfaces you see, but don't touch often, much thinner or with a lower grade of whatever material the surface is made of; also the "glove box" can be made of a cardboard like material and so forth.

The S3 seemed much more like every "trick" in the book to drive cost down was used, much moreso than the other Audis and BMWs we have had since 1977. My 2014 S4, by contrast simply feels more substantial.

Now, then, I have not seen the upcoming B9 A4/S4 family coming in 2016; and, it is possible, certainly, that it may have adopted the wring cost out "attitude" the A3 family seems to have embraced. If so, more's the pity.

Also, the new "el cheapo" economy Mercedes (below the C class) seems, too, like a cheapening of the brand.

For these companies, I would suggest they look at a similar (failed) attempt to bring out "lower cost" representations of the brand by BMW.

I think I, too, would rather have "a cheap car that's really nice".

Perhaps Mercedes can't bring out a non-Mercedes brand, "economy car," but Audi, I think, should have brought out the A3 as a nicer VW than a not-as-nice Audi.

In our market, Toyota got it and came out with the Lexus brand, Honda the Acura brand and Nissan the Infiniti brand. For years, too, GM saw the market approach that seemed to work was to "always have another brand to aspire to" starting with Chevy and topping out at Cadillac. I understand the Buick Regal GS is a very competent, "nice", car -- but I also believe GM doesn't have, in the Regal, a Cadillac ATS clone.

When the accountants (so it was said) started to rule the day, we started seeing badge engineering -- and while platform sharing does make some sense, taken to extremes, it can also sound the death knell for a previously great brand. Does anyone here really care that Ford dropped Mercury a few short years ago? There was, really, nothing special about them compared to their virtual twin Ford models. There was a time, however, that Mercury was different, some would say special, more special than a Ford.

Lincoln is probably still on the endangered species list for similar reasons. At least Cadillac, to name one, has differentiated itself from Chevy and Buick. Had it not, we could very well have started carving Cadillac's tombstone.

Mercedes and Audi, for example, may have started on a slippery slope as my attorney friends like to say.

Does Rolex make any "economy class" time pieces?

rbirns1 · October 2015

It's all about branding. You're right, they don't make economy class Rolexes. Auto makers should not be diluting the quality of their brands by cheapening them. Want a cheaper Audi? Buy a Volkswagen.

andres3 · October 2015

I'd love to get my '06 A3 back for a day and show you all just how many itty bitty little cost cuts Audi made to the current A3/S3 model generation. I still think, however, that Audi is doing well because they do the least amount of "cost cutting," of any brand.

Check out Infinity's cardboard loose in the track feeling moon roof cover. Now check out your S4 moon roof sliding cover. Night and day. Check out the lack of aluminum sills on the rear doors of the Infinity. Check out the trunk. Check out the way the finish is where the roof rails would go.

tlong · October 2015

rbirns1 said:
It should be simple. Entry level luxury is the lowest priced models of luxury makes.

Not sure I buy that if there's no real luxury there. I drove a Mercedes A-class in Europe a few years ago. If they decided to bring that car here, would that automatically make it EELPS? Not in my book - no luxury (and not much performance) at all.

flightnurse · October 2015

rbirns1 said:

Genesis, nice as it may be, is really stretching the definition since Hyundai is not a luxury make. 3-series is clearly entry-level luxury.

Is it really??? Have you owned one? I would put the Genesis sedan against the 5 series and E class, same size, just as quite is not quieter, ride is supple, standard equipment is greater then both of the Germans, just because it's built in Korea doesn't mean it's not a luxury car. In fact no one answer my question, when it comes to price, and which price we going to use to determine if the car is a luxury car. You think car maker determines this.

roadburner · October 2015

Well, I may end up in another BMW yet. I posted this over in CCBA as well...
I was prowling my BMW dealer's used car lot today and found an Estoril Blue 2013 F30 335i M Sport. At first I thought it was the xDrive automatic that they have had a bit of trouble unloading, but it turns out that this is a one owner local car that was just traded- and-incredibly-it's RWD and has a manual transmission. It also has most every available option, including M Sport brakes as well as the M Performance aerodynamics. Don't know the price, mileage, or CPO status, but the car may be worth considering. It's nowhere near as quick as I'd prefer, but that can be fixed easily enough. I had whittled my choices down to a 2013 Boss 302, a new Mustang GT Premium with the Performance Package, and the new WRX STI. Now this shows up to possibly muddy the waters.

stickguy · October 2015

never say never.

markcincinnati · October 2015

flightnurse said:

rbirns1 said:

Genesis, nice as it may be, is really stretching the definition since Hyundai is not a luxury make. 3-series is clearly entry-level luxury.
Is it really??? Have you owned one? I would put the Genesis sedan against the 5 series and E class, same size, just as quite is not quieter, ride is supple, standard equipment is greater then both of the Germans, just because it's built in Korea doesn't mean it's not a luxury car. In fact no one answer my question, when it comes to price, and which price we going to use to determine if the car is a luxury car. You think car maker determines this.

I think there are certainly many examples of products that are -- for whatever reasons -- equal to or even better than other products but the two products are in different classes. Let me give a non-auto example: Tissot makes/markets watches. These time pieces are often feature laden, attractive and cost a fraction of other Swiss made time pieces. Breitling makes/market watches. These time pieces are often feature laden, attractive and cost many multiples of "similar" Tissot time pieces.

It is possible to pick up a "higher end" Tissot with about every modern watch feature and function (complications) known to humans -- and the thing will cost hundreds of dollars (and is often discounted on top of that).

It is virtually impossible to pick up a "lower end" Breitling that has only a date a sweep second hand function for under $2,000. Far as I know they both will tell time equally well and both will last for decades, lifetimes even.

Tissots, even ones studded with diamonds, are not considered high-end watches. A watch super-store such as Tourneau sells Rolex, Movado, Tag and also sells Bulova, Seiko and Tissot -- if a Tourneau outlet is near you, check out the brands, perhaps you'll see what I'm referring to. The Rolex is to BMW as Seiko or Tissot is to the Genesis. The market perceives what it perceives. And in the instance of BMW vs Genesis like Rolex and Seiko, "Perception is Reality."

Dimensions, decibels at 70MPH, number of speakers in the sound system, suppleness of ride or even country of origin doesn't change -- or hasn't thus far changed -- the reality that the Genesis is not currently considered an LPS vehicle; indeed, it is also not, yet, considered an ELLPS vehicle.

It, the Genesis, is a "cheap car that's really nice"[sic].

Similarly, the Toyota Avalon isn't a Lexus -- probably for the same perception reason. My feelings of consternation regarding the A3 vs the rest of the Audi lineup (or, similarly, the entry level Mercedes vs the other Merc's) still stands. Likewise: My belief that Tissot makes timepieces that equal Breitling's products, insofar as their ability to keep time, also stands -- but I don't for a minute think that Tissot or Seiko, etc, are high-end Premium watches.

Genesis' cars, no matter how feature laden, no matter how statistically similar, etc, are not in the same class as BMW's. The market's perception, not mine, not yours -- currently indicating BMW is LPS and Genesis is not -- is reality.

Maybe there will be a reversal of fortune for both of these successful companies -- thus far, there is scant evidence of that. Perhaps, however, Genesis will -- eventually -- come to be perceived as a Premium Car.

Time(pieces) will tell.

rbirns1 · October 2015

At the end of the day, that Genesis owner still has to tell his friends he drives a Hyundai.

henryn · October 2015

rbirns1 said:
At the end of the day, that Genesis owner still has to tell his friends he drives a Hyundai.

Yes, he does. And his friends who know which end is up, will know that he is a very savvy car buyer. Those who are status conscious, those who have to own a Rolex and drive a BMW just for the status, will look down their noses at him.

circlew · October 2015

....and he doesn't have to worry about anything on the drive train for awhile!

Warranty

The 2015 Hyundai Genesis comes with a five-year/60,000-mile limited warranty and a 10-year/100,000-mile powertrain warranty.

thebean · October 2015

rbirns1 said:

It's all about branding. You're right, they don't make economy class Rolexes. Auto makers should not be diluting the quality of their brands by cheapening them. Want a cheaper Audi? Buy a Volkswagen.

Rolex does make a cheaper watch - it's branded as a Tudor. Instead of a Rolex movement, it has a movement made by ETA, which makes movements for a lot of watchmakers including Tag, Movado, and Tissot. Rolex didn't want to "sully" the Rolex name but still wanted a piece of the medium price watch market.

flightnurse · October 2015

rbirns1 said:
At the end of the day, that Genesis owner still has to tell his friends he drives a Hyundai.

Interesting comment, having one in the family people are hard pressed to believe that Hyundai built the car. For people like yourself, the badge on the hood makes the car.

roadburner · October 2015

flightnurse said:

Interesting comment, having one in the family people are hard pressed to believe that Hyundai built the car. For people like yourself, the badge on the hood makes the car.

Your ARE what you ~~drive~~ wear...

breld · October 2015

My wife got her S3 this past August and absolutely loves it. For her, it was about getting something with much of the "character" of the GTI she traded it in, but in a package that was more refined and mature. The S3 may feel rougher than an S4 (more on that below), but I would say it's much more refined than, say, a WRX. No doubt you're paying for that premium, but once you really load up a GTI, WRX or certainly a Golf R, the premium for the Audi gets much more palatable (at least it was for us).

Now, I was impressed enough with her S3 that I returned to the Audi dealership and bought my S4 a few weeks later. And, after a few months of driving my S4 and having ample seat time in her S3....I'd agree, for the most part, with @markcincinnati regarding the difference in luxury between the two.

In fact, and I posted this on the CCBA forum too, this S4 may be my favorite car I've owned. The balance between the sporty dynamic and luxury is impressive. To me, it feels like it falls in between two of my previous cars - an e90 335i and an f10 535i, offering most of the comfort of the 5 and most of the sport of the 3. Sort of a Goldilocks "just right" choice.

I had debated between the great DSG and the manual, but in the end, I figured if Audi was still gonna offer the manual, I was gonna stick with they dying breed. And it is a great manual trannie - very "easy" to drive in traffic and for me, really adds to the overall experience. Not that there aren't times in my long work commute that I would prefer a nice auto, but I'll take advantage of it now while it's still being offered - doubt it will be for much longer.

Sandman6472 · October 2015

Guess I prefer to drive what I like now...and can afford! Before I retired the first time, had to drive econoboxes due to finances and family situation...raising our kids. Now the situation is different and no longer need to drive those kind of vehicles and tried going the CUV route back in December of 2013 and bought a mid-line Hyundai Tucson. Very nice vehicle to be sure and enjoyed it for awhile but it just was a bit too big for me so just over a year later, swapped it out for something smaller. Wanted an A3 like the wife had bought the week earlier but didn't have the $ for one so got a very similar driving vehicle in my VW Golf. Perfect size and fun to drive plus I feel like I've got a 3/4 A3 so all is good.
Luckily, I don't worry or care about what others think about what I drive or where I live. Sure I would've liked to have bought a nicer vehicle like the A3 but didn't want to live beyond our means like so many folks do and I drive too many miles to lease. But, since I never looked into leasing and the payoff once it's up, maybe I could've gone the A3 route. Maybe next time...who knows!!

The Sandman

markcincinnati · October 2015

For most of us here, I assume, we really don't care what other folks think, within reason of course. If you like the Audi, BMW or Mercedes BRAND, you like the brand, other's opinions are of tertiary importance.

The cars we like are liked by us, because WE like them, not because we might have to explain to our buddies that we're driving a Genesis made by Hyundai -- or a whatever made by whomever.

My thesis was simply, don't change the brand. The downmarket Rolex is NOT called a Rolex -- I simply don't think an A3, TODAY, or the CLA, TODAY, should be Audi branded or Mercedes branded. Maybe these models will rapidly rise so as to fit in the family.

At this point, if I can get my hands on a new S4 in a year or two -- and it has not been pushed down in some way -- I really don't mind the A3/S3 being what I think, TODAY, should be a member of the VW family.

Evenutually, however, if the A3 foreshadows a decline, well, I may have to reconsider.

I looked at some "high end" KIA's today. They are feature rich and very attractive,. They seem high value -- a nice, no very nice, cheap car. But, and it is probably me, I cannot see myself driving a car with KIA on the steering wheel -- I just keep seeing Killed In Action. Of course when I see a Toyota with TRD on it, I see "turd," and I just can't imagine "what were they thinking?"

I guess the phrase, to each his/her own, leaps to mind, too.

tlong · October 2015

markcincinnati said:
For most of us here, I assume, we really don't care what other folks think, within reason of course. If you like the Audi, BMW or Mercedes BRAND, you like the brand, other's opinions are of tertiary importance.

Of course when I see a Toyota with TRD on it, I see "turd," and I just can't imagine "what were they thinking?"

I guess the phrase, to each his/her own, leaps to mind, too.

Funny, that's also what I see with TRD. I wouldn't pick that! (not that I want a pickup anyway).

In regards to my original Mazda 3 comment, I'm just kind of a value buyer and to me Mazda is what Honda used to be - sporty and high value. To me a fully loaded $30K or so Mazda 3 (what I categorize as "a cheap car that feels nice") would provide the driving dynamics and still luxury interior and features that would be more pleasing (to me) than a much more stripped A3 at a similar price that is "a nice car that feels cheap".

I've owned an Audi in the past and to me the A3 is just a bit too downmarket for the brand. At the time I bought my A4 with a 6 cylinder, sport package, manual tranny, in 1998, the A4 was the "value choice" as compared to the BMW 3-series of the day. Having gotten that out of my system, next car I get doesn't need to have that badge any more. I'm milking the miles out of my Acura TL but in the next couple of years it will be time to choose again.

breld · October 2015

Even though I traded in my Mazda3 for the S4, I will whole-heartedly agree on your comments on the 3 being a "cheap car that feels nice." Mine was the Grand Touring model with the appearance package, and at $26k, it was (and is) an excellent car. Great driving dynamics, adequate power, and a better infotainment system than my Audi.

To be fair though, the overall interior quality is inferior, in some measure, to the A3/S3. The Mazda is certainly on par, if not superior, to its peers, but you are indeed getting something for the extra cost of even the entry-level Audi.

stickguy · October 2015

I came real close on the Mazda 3. Just did not quite work out. But I did think you could have rebadged it as an entry level Audi, with little or no changes, and people would have fawned all over it.

roadburner · October 2015

Agreed, the current Mazda 3 lifted the bar for its segment considerably- especially with respect to the interior.

andys120 · October 2015

I've said it before and I'll say it again- in today's market the term "luxury car" is meaningless. Back in the day if a car had power windows/ locks and air conditioning it was considered a luxury car but now almost every car has those things as well as many other entertainment and comfort features.

There is still a difference between "prestige" cars and those whose badge carries no particular cachet. Therein lies the difference between a BMW 1-Series, or an Audi A3 and a Hyundai Genesis, however lavishly equipped.
Since prestige is based on brand image it may not seem like a valid distinction but "perception is reality". Every single one of you knows the difference.

Perhaps the name of this topic should be "Entry Level Prestige Performance Cars".

qbrozen · October 2015

well, I don't know about the term itself, but I feel there is definitely a big difference between a true luxury car and a mundane car loaded with options. No matter how many gadgets you throw on a Civic, it is still a Civic, and it won't compare to a 3-series in the end.

Michaell · October 2015

qbrozen said:
well, I don't know about the term itself, but I feel there is definitely a big difference between a true luxury car and a mundane car loaded with options. No matter how many gadgets you throw on a Civic, it is still a Civic, and it won't compare to a 3-series in the end.

Not to throw gas on the fire - but, why?

The new 2016 Civic will be available with a 174HP 1.5L turbo ... not too far off from the 180HP available in the 320i.

Given that BMW is moving away from the 'sport sedan' feeling they are famous for, what really is the difference between the two?

Drive wheels - Civic is FWD; BMW is RWD

Anything else?

I've always wanted to own a luxury (or "prestige") make, but I'm finding it harder and harder to justify the $5-10-15K premium when the driving experience is really pretty much the same.

qbrozen · October 2015

I've tried to convince myself a "lesser" car is good enough. It just isn't. I did that when I leased an '06 Accord EXL V6. Figured "hey, it has everything in it." It only took a few months before the road noise, quality of materials, seat comfort, etc, got on my nerves.

There is a reason why some cars cost more, and it isn't just because of the drive wheels or the badge. Do you think it costs MB the same money to build a turbo CLA as it will cost Honda to build a turbo Civic? I seriously doubt it.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2015

I don't think "luxury" is about gadgets but about the quality of materials....and yes...the badge on the grille does matter, as does the MSRP to some extent. I know this doesn't speak too well of human perceptions vs. reality, but remember that experiment where the people dressed in white lab coats seemed more "believable" to participants than the people dressed in ordinary street clothes, even though both were saying the same thing?

stickguy · October 2015

Well, if mainstream brands can't go "up", can Luxo brands go down? Thinking of the MB CLA and upcoming BMW (1 series?). The FWD models trying to cover the bottom end. Did the descend into Acura territory? Has the civic touring elevated to that?

I just think the entry level arena has gotten very murky. Mucho overlap.

qbrozen · October 2015

Mr_Shiftright said:
I don't think "luxury" is about gadgets but about the quality of materials....and yes...the badge on the grille does matter, as does the MSRP to some extent. I know this doesn't speak too well of human perceptions vs. reality, but remember that experiment where the people dressed in white lab coats seemed more "believable" to participants than the people dressed in ordinary street clothes, even though both were saying the same thing?

We are in agreement. The badge does add some cost, but there is some justification behind it, such as materials, build tolerances, engineering.

Stick - can they? Sure. They haven't just yet, as far as I know. Most manufacturers build to a pricepoint. They wanted a $30k MB, so they built one they could sell for $30k.

andres3 · October 2015

stickguy said:
I came real close on the Mazda 3. Just did not quite work out. But I did think you could have rebadged it as an entry level Audi, with little or no changes, and people would have fawned all over it.

What kind of HP does the Mazda 3 offer in top trim (no Speed 3 is available last I checked? Although described as adequate, I have a feeling even the 1.8T from VW/Audi would leave it in the dust?

I think your typical Audi driver would know immediately upon pressing the accelerator that something was amiss if you rebadged a Mazda 3 as an Audi.

andres3 · October 2015

stickguy said:
I came real close on the Mazda 3. Just did not quite work out. But I did think you could have rebadged it as an entry level Audi, with little or no changes, and people would have fawned all over it.

What kind of HP does the Mazda 3 offer in top trim (no Speed 3 is available last I checked? Although described as adequate, I have a feeling even the 1.8T from VW/Audi would leave it in the dust?

I think your typical Audi driver would know immediately upon pressing the accelerator that something was amiss if you rebadged a Mazda 3 as an Audi.

andres3 · October 2015

Michaell said:

qbrozen said:
well, I don't know about the term itself, but I feel there is definitely a big difference between a true luxury car and a mundane car loaded with options. No matter how many gadgets you throw on a Civic, it is still a Civic, and it won't compare to a 3-series in the end.
Not to throw gas on the fire - but, why?

The new 2016 Civic will be available with a 174HP 1.5L turbo ... not too far off from the 180HP available in the 320i.

Given that BMW is moving away from the 'sport sedan' feeling they are famous for, what really is the difference between the two?

Drive wheels - Civic is FWD; BMW is RWD

Anything else?

I've always wanted to own a luxury (or "prestige") make, but I'm finding it harder and harder to justify the $5-10-15K premium when the driving experience is really pretty much the same.

Honda is good on safety, but if I was forced to have a head on collision between the 320i and the Civic, I'd choose the 320i for my bones and body. How about you? Be honest.

andres3 · October 2015

Michaell said:

qbrozen said:
well, I don't know about the term itself, but I feel there is definitely a big difference between a true luxury car and a mundane car loaded with options. No matter how many gadgets you throw on a Civic, it is still a Civic, and it won't compare to a 3-series in the end.
Not to throw gas on the fire - but, why?

The new 2016 Civic will be available with a 174HP 1.5L turbo ... not too far off from the 180HP available in the 320i.

Given that BMW is moving away from the 'sport sedan' feeling they are famous for, what really is the difference between the two?

Drive wheels - Civic is FWD; BMW is RWD

Anything else?

I've always wanted to own a luxury (or "prestige") make, but I'm finding it harder and harder to justify the $5-10-15K premium when the driving experience is really pretty much the same.

Honda is good on safety, but if I was forced to have a head on collision between the 320i and the Civic, I'd choose the 320i for my bones and body. How about you? Be honest.

andres3 · October 2015

breld said:
My wife got her S3 this past August and absolutely loves it. For her, it was about getting something with much of the "character" of the GTI she traded it in, but in a package that was more refined and mature. The S3 may feel rougher than an S4 (more on that below), but I would say it's much more refined than, say, a WRX. No doubt you're paying for that premium, but once you really load up a GTI, WRX or certainly a Golf R, the premium for the Audi gets much more palatable (at least it was for us).

Now, I was impressed enough with her S3 that I returned to the Audi dealership and bought my S4 a few weeks later. And, after a few months of driving my S4 and having ample seat time in her S3....I'd agree, for the most part, with @markcincinnati regarding the difference in luxury between the two.

In fact, and I posted this on the CCBA forum too, this S4 may be my favorite car I've owned. The balance between the sporty dynamic and luxury is impressive. To me, it feels like it falls in between two of my previous cars - an e90 335i and an f10 535i, offering most of the comfort of the 5 and most of the sport of the 3. Sort of a Goldilocks "just right" choice.

I had debated between the great DSG and the manual, but in the end, I figured if Audi was still gonna offer the manual, I was gonna stick with they dying breed. And it is a great manual trannie - very "easy" to drive in traffic and for me, really adds to the overall experience. Not that there aren't times in my long work commute that I would prefer a nice auto, but I'll take advantage of it now while it's still being offered - doubt it will be for much longer.

How many miles have you racked up on the new S4? There's been reports the engine really kicks it into gear once broken in at 1,000 and then again at 5,000 miles?

The main thing I've noticed is the S4 has long legs. Whereas the 2.0T starts to run out of steam at 90 MPH, the S4 will get you to 120 MPH + in not too many heartbeats.

stickguy · October 2015

3S has 184/185 HP/Torque. so more HP than the 1.8T, a little less torque. They are comparable performance wise I think. Mazda might be a little quicker.

markcincinnati · October 2015

After nearly three dozen Audis since 1977, I can attest to the new engine feel that happens at 5K miles and at least once -- and my wife swears it is at least twice -- at a later mileage intervals. Indeed, my wife's SQ5 just turned 45K miles and her MPGs have climbed to over 27. My S4 with 35K miles is closer to 29 MPGs -- and we're talking over the course of a 100 mile one-way drive from Cincinnati to Columbus at speeds between 75 and 85 MPH.

Full disclosure, front tire inflation 43, rear 41 psi.

I use cruise control, my wife doesn't.

Perhaps other companies produce cars with engines that reboot themselves several times over their lifespans, until I started driving Audis, however, I never noticed this being the case, however.

Michaell · October 2015

andres3 said:

Michaell said:

qbrozen said:
well, I don't know about the term itself, but I feel there is definitely a big difference between a true luxury car and a mundane car loaded with options. No matter how many gadgets you throw on a Civic, it is still a Civic, and it won't compare to a 3-series in the end.
Not to throw gas on the fire - but, why?

The new 2016 Civic will be available with a 174HP 1.5L turbo ... not too far off from the 180HP available in the 320i.

Given that BMW is moving away from the 'sport sedan' feeling they are famous for, what really is the difference between the two?

Drive wheels - Civic is FWD; BMW is RWD

Anything else?

I've always wanted to own a luxury (or "prestige") make, but I'm finding it harder and harder to justify the $5-10-15K premium when the driving experience is really pretty much the same.
Honda is good on safety, but if I was forced to have a head on collision between the 320i and the Civic, I'd choose the 320i for my bones and body. How about you? Be honest.

I'd choose the BMW as well. But, my budget doesn't stretch that far, vehicle wise.

robr2 · October 2015

stickguy said:
3S has 184/185 HP/Torque. so more HP than the 1.8T, a little less torque. They are comparable performance wise I think. Mazda might be a little quicker.

Since Mazda offers only the one engine, it's really unfair to compare that to the 3S engine.

Mazda 3
2 litre
155 HP
150 Torks
2931 lbs.
19 lbs/HP

Audi A3
1.8T
170 HP
200 Torks
3175 lbs.
19 lbs/HP

IMHO, the vast majority of us would not notice any difference.

andys120 · October 2015

stickguy said:
Well, if mainstream brands can't go "up", can Luxo brands go down? .

They can and they have.. e.g. Cadillac and Lincoln. Even Buick was considered a "prestige" brand until perhaps the mid 60s.

stickguy · October 2015

Rob, the 3S has the 2.5l engine with the 184/185 outputs. Really a quick car since it is pretty light.

stickguy · October 2015

agreed Andy. to me, the "luxury" brands were clearer in the old days. Caddy for sure. BMW was never luxury really. And Caddy really messed up the message when they tried to go real entry level (I guess the Cimmaron was the first attempt at an ELLPS?)

a better word (that you used) IMO is "prestige". Audi is more prestige than Mazda. Volvo traveled in the Prestige area to an extent.

robr2 · October 2015

stickguy said:
Rob, the 3S has the 2.5l engine with the 184/185 outputs. Really a quick car since it is pretty light.

Agreed but IMHO, it's not fair to compare the upgraded Audi motor to the base nee only Mazda motor. If Mazda could shoehorn the 2.5 (184/185) in the 3, then it would be a fair comparison.

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