Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

stever · November 2015

lol, comparing morals to what - GM ignition switches or VW cheat codes or Ford/Firestone or Kia/Hyundai mpg claims?

berri · November 2015

Yeah your right, but I still wouldn't buy a car made in China. The country has hacked and stolen so much company proprietary info and US citizen data - I just don't trust their long term intentions. Of course, otoh they can be a bit xenophobic and maybe don't trust ours either.

tlong · November 2015

stever said:
lol, comparing morals to what - GM ignition switches or VW cheat codes or Ford/Firestone or Kia/Hyundai mpg claims?

Agreed. And it's kind of funny that people who want everybody to "buy American" have GM who could be the first to sell a car from China. BMW and Hyundai and Honda and Toyota and.... all set up plants in the US and create US jobs. Yet the first to China might be a US nameplate.

fintail · November 2015

Yes, cheat codes and mpg claims to the IP social and environmental wonder of the world. Nice comparison.

Some just want their cheap goods, no matter the externalities or consequences.

stever said:
lol, comparing morals to what - GM ignition switches or VW cheat codes or Ford/Firestone or Kia/Hyundai mpg claims?

tlong · November 2015

fintail said:
Yes, cheat codes and mpg claims to the IP social and environmental wonder of the world. Nice comparison.

Some just want their cheap goods, no matter the externalities or consequences.

stever said:
lol, comparing morals to what - GM ignition switches or VW cheat codes or Ford/Firestone or Kia/Hyundai mpg claims?

No love lost for China but what GM did and what VW has done are reprehensible.
Toyota's SUA looks pretty tame in comparison.

berri · November 2015

Honestly, given the old GM it could have been management incompetence.

fintail · November 2015

Heck, I'm still willing to give a lot of the SUA issue to driver error. I can't equate cheating software with deadly negligent design however. And none of it compares to what China regularly perpetrates. But hey, some just want cheap, no matter what it supports.

tlong said:

Yes, cheat codes and mpg claims to the IP social and environmental wonder of the world. Nice comparison. Some just want their cheap goods, no matter the externalities or consequences.
lol, comparing morals to what - GM ignition switches or VW cheat codes or Ford/Firestone or Kia/Hyundai mpg claims?

No love lost for China but what GM did and what VW has done are reprehensible. Toyota's SUA looks

tlong · November 2015

Although no deaths are involved like the GM and Toyota fiascos, VW's behavior IMHO is reprehensible because although there are no personal injuries involved, the company's behavior was deliberate and dishonest - unlike GM and Toyota. VW tried up front to cheat and deceive. This speaks to morals; as far as I'm concerned they can quit selling vehicles in the US for a while. Like a sports player put on suspension, I'd give them a 5 year suspension. But of course not even sure the US has that authority, plus a lot of innocent dealers would be harmed.

I find the recent VW vehicles almost all uninspring anyway, unlike a decade ago.

fintail · November 2015

There are no morals in business. The only difference is that they got caught. 5 years seems a bit steep - if that's justice, then back when the banksters sabotaged the economy for personal and corporate game, the huge amount of guilty firms should have been dissolved, personal and corporate assets liquidated, suits given decades in prison, and the key wrongdoers put on trial a maximum potential of capital punishment - better people have received it for less. It doesn't work that way, however. (hell, we do business with China every day, who does worse virtually every day) They'll get some big fines, maybe some woefully overpaid arrogant prosecutors will try to make a few personal examples, but in time it will blow over. In the end, the golden rule wins.

tlong said:
Although no deaths are involved like the GM and Toyota fiascos, VW's behavior IMHO is reprehensible because although there are no personal injuries involved, the company's behavior was deliberate and dishonest - unlike GM and Toyota. VW tried up front to cheat and deceive. This speaks to morals; as far as I'm concerned they can quit selling vehicles in the US for a while. Like a sports player put on suspension, I'd give them a 5 year suspension. But of course not even sure the US has that authority, plus a lot of innocent dealers would be harmed.

I find the recent VW vehicles almost all uninspring anyway, unlike a decade ago.

andres3 · November 2015

tlong said:
Although no deaths are involved like the GM and Toyota fiascos, VW's behavior IMHO is reprehensible because although there are no personal injuries involved, the company's behavior was deliberate and dishonest - unlike GM and Toyota. VW tried up front to cheat and deceive. This speaks to morals; as far as I'm concerned they can quit selling vehicles in the US for a while. Like a sports player put on suspension, I'd give them a 5 year suspension. But of course not even sure the US has that authority, plus a lot of innocent dealers would be harmed.

I find the recent VW vehicles almost all uninspring anyway, unlike a decade ago.

For me GM and other bailout takers have much more reprehensible morals than what VW has done. I don't give Chrysler and GM a pass for making crappy cars for years and years. I believe they deliberately made crappy cars because they didn't care about the end user one cent. They also were negligent and incompetent, which only made the deliberately designed crappy cars even worse than crap. There are no morals in taking zero pride in ones work.

I know I get some resistance on these boards for saying it, but my belief is that every Neon sold was fraud perpetrated on the buying public. Disposable, temporary vehicle (like a BIC Razor) sold as a real durable vehicle. Imagine if BIC started charging $50 for a disposable razor.

tlong · November 2015

andres3 said:

tlong said:
Although no deaths are involved like the GM and Toyota fiascos, VW's behavior IMHO is reprehensible because although there are no personal injuries involved, the company's behavior was deliberate and dishonest - unlike GM and Toyota. VW tried up front to cheat and deceive. This speaks to morals; as far as I'm concerned they can quit selling vehicles in the US for a while. Like a sports player put on suspension, I'd give them a 5 year suspension. But of course not even sure the US has that authority, plus a lot of innocent dealers would be harmed.

I find the recent VW vehicles almost all uninspring anyway, unlike a decade ago.
For me GM and other bailout takers have much more reprehensible morals than what VW has done. I don't give Chrysler and GM a pass for making crappy cars for years and years. I believe they deliberately made crappy cars because they didn't care about the end user one cent. They also were negligent and incompetent, which only made the deliberately designed crappy cars even worse than crap. There are no morals in taking zero pride in ones work.

I know I get some resistance on these boards for saying it, but my belief is that every Neon sold was fraud perpetrated on the buying public. Disposable, temporary vehicle (like a BIC Razor) sold as a real durable vehicle. Imagine if BIC started charging $50 for a disposable razor.

Oh I don't disagree about C and GM, it's just that was a decades-long systemic deterioration of product quality. But not quite the same as "let's cheat the EPA regulations". I attribute the poor US nameplate quality more to cost-cutting and union-vs-mgt conflicts, but not to open malicious intent.

Mr_Shiftright · November 2015

I also think cheating on emissions is a more grievous ethical violation, inasmuch as it affects every U.S. citizen.

Sandman6472 · December 2015

At the end of the day, all will be forgiven and we'll move on to the next thing. Owning two gas powered VW/Audi products for just over a year now, we are impressed with how good they both are and are enjoying the ownership experience. All the vehicles we've owned...domestic, Japanese, Korean and now German, they all have gotten better as the years go by and most of the major players have been involved of some nefarious business from time to time. Seems to be just part of the game and we all move on.
Just enjoy what you drive is my take on the ownership experience. I made the big mistake of getting a vehicle I settled for and it was a mistake, a big somewhat expensive one which I hope to never repeat again. With just over a year of ownership, I had to cut it loose from the herd and ended up with something that puts a grin on my face whenever I look at it. Sure it was illogical, expensive, dumb...use any adjective you'd like but once I did it, I never looked back and to this day, have no regret. So my message is this, buy and drive what you really like and you will smile every mile down the road!!

The Sandman

anythngbutgm · December 2015

sandman_6472 said:
I made the big mistake of getting a vehicle I settled for and it was a mistake, a big somewhat expensive one which I hope to never repeat again. With just over a year of ownership, I had to cut it loose from the herd and ended up with something that puts a grin on my face whenever I look at it. Sure it was illogical, expensive, dumb...use any adjective you'd like but once I did it, I never looked back and to this day, have no regret.

The Sandman

Wow, only a year? What were you driving that was so disappointing?

I had an Exploder that I dumped after 10 months because the 4WD locking hubs would only partially engage and then fully engage with a car shaking thud after taking a left turn from a complete stop. Then a bad O2 sensor and a rear wheel bearing at about 7k miles and I gave up. Traded it in at a loss for a Honda Accord...

But this was the only time I have ever had buyers remorse with a new car.

Cheers and Happy New year to everybody

berri · January 2016

I once owned an absolutely awful 99 Explorer AWD. It even had the old 302 V8, but reliability was not one of it's stronger attributes. However, I'd see very similar ones that ran forever. I guess quality was still an inconsistent matter back then.

tlong · January 2016

I also posted the following in the "Us Auto News and Reviews" forum...

GM bets Americans will buy cars made in China

We've speculated about this for many years on these boards. While GM has had Chinese engines brought into the US (a first for any maker), now they are planning on going further. With all of the talk about "What is an American Car" and "I'm glad I'm buying a car made near me", what does this mean when our "most American of all" automakers is becoming (at least with some vehicles) the "most foreign of all"? Is the fact that "profits go to the US" enough?

Discuss...

carboy21 · January 2016

tlong said:
I also posted the following in the "Us Auto News and Reviews" forum...

GM bets Americans will buy cars made in China

We've speculated about this for many years on these boards. While GM has had Chinese engines brought into the US (a first for any maker), now they are planning on going further. With all of the talk about "What is an American Car" and "I'm glad I'm buying a car made near me", what does this mean when our "most American of all" automakers is becoming (at least with some vehicles) the "most foreign of all"? Is the fact that "profits go to the US" enough?

Discuss...

Don't buy iPhone. It is made in China. No cellphone is made in USA .

Mr_Shiftright · January 2016

It rather depends on the future political climate. Another Tiananmen Square and GM could be in trouble with that.

carnaught · January 2016

"Don't buy iPhone. It is made in China. No cellphone is made in USA."

Some similarities, but in general, apples to oranges. Besides the 5-6 digit dollar investment one makes in a car vs. the three digit dollar investment in an iPhone, smartphones have not had a long tradition and heritage of being an American made product. Although the Amer. automotive industry has undergone a decline, there is a resurgence of quality. Chinese made goods have a prevailing opinion that they do not hold up well, which will have to be overcome.

berri · January 2016

...but will the new Chinese Buick have Stabilitrak

Sandman6472 · January 2016

Anything, it was a 2014 Hyundai Tucson and it wasn't a bad vehicle, on the contrary, it was a great vehicle but just not for me. I had driven econoboxes for such a long time, I just wanted something different and to be sitting higher up due to my spinal issues. I searched for awhile, weeks, but got tired at the end and settled on a model I didn't absolutely love. Within a few days I knew I had made a huge mistake but decided to live with it. Exactly a year later, my wife bought an Audi A3 and I fell in love...only issue was she had more $ to spend on a vehicle, long story! Since the door was now open to German ownership, stopped by the local VW store and finding the Jetta just too big and the Tiguan out of my price range, drove the Golf and that was it. Took a few days to process it all and to get the wife's o k, not really necessary but wanted to make things easier for me in the long run.
The mileage difference between both vehicles became the deciding factor in my decision since I have a part time gig which I work 3 days/week with a 60 mile round trip. Went into the dealership and after some back and forth, made the decision and never looked back. After driving a few '15 models this past week, I work for a Hertz HLE, it just reinforced that I had made the right decision to trade out the Tucson. First time I've ever done something like this, and definitely the last...I've finally found a vehicle, vehicles, I absolutely love and plan to stay the course in the future. Figure at my age, there's not going to be many more vehicles in my future so plan on going with those that make me smile each time I walk in the garage!

The Sandman

andres3 · January 2016

sandman_6472 said:
Anything, it was a 2014 Hyundai Tucson and it wasn't a bad vehicle, on the contrary, it was a great vehicle but just not for me. I had driven econoboxes for such a long time, I just wanted something different and to be sitting higher up due to my spinal issues. I searched for awhile, weeks, but got tired at the end and settled on a model I didn't absolutely love. Within a few days I knew I had made a huge mistake but decided to live with it. Exactly a year later, my wife bought an Audi A3 and I fell in love...only issue was she had more $ to spend on a vehicle, long story! Since the door was now open to German ownership, stopped by the local VW store and finding the Jetta just too big and the Tiguan out of my price range, drove the Golf and that was it. Took a few days to process it all and to get the wife's o k, not really necessary but wanted to make things easier for me in the long run.
The mileage difference between both vehicles became the deciding factor in my decision since I have a part time gig which I work 3 days/week with a 60 mile round trip. Went into the dealership and after some back and forth, made the decision and never looked back. After driving a few '15 models this past week, I work for a Hertz HLE, it just reinforced that I had made the right decision to trade out the Tucson. First time I've ever done something like this, and definitely the last...I've finally found a vehicle, vehicles, I absolutely love and plan to stay the course in the future. Figure at my age, there's not going to be many more vehicles in my future so plan on going with those that make me smile each time I walk in the garage!

The Sandman

Is your wife's A3 the 2.0T Quattro version, or the 1.8T? I'm a big fan of the 2.0T motor.

Sandman6472 · January 2016

The base 1.8T that I've got in my VW Golf. Great engine though it seems to pull better in her A3, shifts a bit smoother. Hoping to take it from her if she decides to trade early as it'll have less miles than mine and I really like it, a lot. Audi does a nice job and even though it is their lowest priced model, does not feel that way. Prefer my blue over beige to hers, white over black guts, but it was either that or black over black, which we both did not like. The silver and dark gray were nice but weren't in stock when we bought.

The Sandman

berri · January 2016

I don't know why, but it seems like to get a blue exterior and beige like interior you almost have to buy European. The US and Japanese seem to tend toward blue with grey interiors. Also, Europe serves up some nice medium blues, while US and Asia seem to favor silver blues or dark ink blues. I sure wish we had more variety in colors and color combinations.

andres3 · January 2016

sandman_6472 said:
Anything, it was a 2014 Hyundai Tucson and it wasn't a bad vehicle, on the contrary, it was a great vehicle but just not for me. I had driven econoboxes for such a long time, I just wanted something different and to be sitting higher up due to my spinal issues. I searched for awhile, weeks, but got tired at the end and settled on a model I didn't absolutely love. Within a few days I knew I had made a huge mistake but decided to live with it. Exactly a year later, my wife bought an Audi A3 and I fell in love...only issue was she had more $ to spend on a vehicle, long story! Since the door was now open to German ownership, stopped by the local VW store and finding the Jetta just too big and the Tiguan out of my price range, drove the Golf and that was it. Took a few days to process it all and to get the wife's o k, not really necessary but wanted to make things easier for me in the long run.
The mileage difference between both vehicles became the deciding factor in my decision since I have a part time gig which I work 3 days/week with a 60 mile round trip. Went into the dealership and after some back and forth, made the decision and never looked back. After driving a few '15 models this past week, I work for a Hertz HLE, it just reinforced that I had made the right decision to trade out the Tucson. First time I've ever done something like this, and definitely the last...I've finally found a vehicle, vehicles, I absolutely love and plan to stay the course in the future. Figure at my age, there's not going to be many more vehicles in my future so plan on going with those that make me smile each time I walk in the garage!

The Sandman

It would be easy to turn a 2.0T Quattro A3 into an S3 for much less cost; but at what expense in lost durability?

stever · January 2016

"The Chattanooga City Council on Tuesday approved a tax break of a little more than $1 million over a period of 14 years for a Chinese company building a local plant to manufacture automobile interiors for Volkswagen.

The company says it is the largest manufacturer in the world of auto interiors, with 22 plants in the U.S. and 100 worldwide. In Chattanooga, it will supply interior components including floor consoles, instrument panels and trunk trim for future VW models."

City Council approves tax break for Chinese auto parts firm (timesfreepress.com)

stever · January 2016

"The arrival of Chinese-made cars has surprised some people in the United States, particularly United Auto Workers leaders who objected to General Motors’ decision to begin selling the Buick Envision starting this July.

But it is the culmination of a long-promised, never-fulfilled vision, and their introduction stands in stark contrast to 2007, when Chinese automakers stormed auto shows in America, making bold promises that they would soon open showrooms here."

Chinese-Made Cars Arrive in U.S. Showrooms (New York Times)

fintail · January 2016

Buy a Chinese car, say "I believe in fair trade", LOLOLOL...I don't think you know what that means.

Still haven't seen one of those LWB S60s, and I live in a market where Volvo has a presence, and there are lots of proud expats (just ask any realtor).

berri · January 2016

I think many Asians in the US seem to like German brands if they go import, just like most everyone else, so might be why Volvo's aren't doing much here with their expats?

fintail · January 2016

Here it is a mix, German or Lexus if one has money, highline German or Italian if one is an "investor" resident, otherwise, the Civrolla rules the roost.

A number of high spec Genesis and even Equus around here are driven by Koreans, I assume the pride would translate.

berri said:
I think many Asians in the US seem to like German brands if they go import, just like most everyone else, so might be why Volvo's aren't doing much here with their expats?

iluvmysephia1 · January 2016

Prefer my blue over beige to hers, white over black guts, but it was either that or black over black, which we both did not like. The silver and dark gray were nice but weren't in stock when we bought.

sandan, lol, I don't recall ever hearing of car interiors referred to as "guts."

Mr_Shiftright · January 2016

Well, if you think carefully about where leather upholstery comes from.....

iluvmysephia1 · January 2016

Righteo - shifty! And the subject is right in our snouts here in Dodge City, Queen of the Cowtowns.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2016

I read somewhere that it takes 9 cows to pave a full size Lexus.

berri · January 2016

So did Toyota get an EPA emissions credit for reducing air pollution

Mr_Shiftright · January 2016

hahaha....probably cancelled out by the use of wood trim.

I wonder if those were domestic content cows?

berri · January 2016

You know, if you go through all the EPA and other related gov regulations it really is about that complicated and goofy!

stever · September 2016

A reporter is working on a story about car shoppers who are only interested in buying cars that are made in the USA. If you're one of these shoppers, and you'd like to talk about your experience shopping for American-made vehicles, please reach out to PR @edmunds.com by no later than Thursday, September 15, 2016.

berri · September 2016

Looks like he'll be talking to Toyota and Honda buyers

stever · September 2016

We did post that blurb in the Camry and Odyssey discussions.

andres3 · September 2016

Is the Kia with a VIN starting with 5 made in the USA? I suspect it is.

stever · October 2016

"The No.1 U.S. auto maker in terms of sales started selling the Chinese-built Buick Envision in North American dealerships in late spring, importing relatively small numbers of the vehicles to give a boost to the Buick brand. A few months into the experiment, dealers are clamoring for more because they say most of their customers don’t care where the vehicle is made."

Americans Embrace a Made-in-China Buick SUV (WSJ - probably a registration link)

fintail · October 2016

Haven't seen one on the road.

And yes, a "5" VIN is a USA-built car.

stever · October 2016

~6,000 sold since May. September sales were 1,649.

fintail · October 2016

Retail sales?

stever · October 2016

lol, excellent question. Have to ask the Journal/Autodata.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2016

I read recently or I thought I read that you cannot buy a 100% u.s. content car anymore

fintail · October 2016

Just hard to imagine 50+ of those selling every day for half a year.

Even my E-class is only about 75% German content. 100% local content is impossible with so many electronics in cars.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2016

Far cry from the day when Henry Ford made just about every part for his cars, including the steel.

I'm not on board with regarding globalization as some horrifying menace. The overview of the whole process is extremely complex and there are some distinct benefits that are reaped everyday by American citizens.

I just read where Ford execs pretty much went ballistic over remarks that building cars in Mexico was some sort of dastardly unpatriotic act.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics is an interesting place to get some idea of what's going on in the U.S. auto industry.

fintail · October 2016

Globalization is likely a net positive, but a lot more needs to be done for those who are left behind. A lot of the one-worlders won't touch the socio-economic elephant in the room - this is the stuff that breeds populist insanity. To borrow a fun old quote, history doesn't repeat itself, but it can rhyme.

Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

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