Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous

robr2 · November 2015

qbrozen said:
Then we called that autoexotica place again and told them we were coming back to talk about the H3. That wound up being real quick because they apparently won't come off their internet price, even despite the fact that I showed him there is one a year newer with a few less miles for $2k below their internet price. Salesman indicated his hands are tied and it is what it is. Not even a discussion with his boss was to be had. Huh. Good luck with that business model I guess.

moving on.

When I showed the Mazda dealer two other 2014 Grand Touring 6 at prices $2,000 and $3,500 less than his, he shrugged and said they would lose money at those prices. I told him good luck.

fintail · November 2015

There's some food and drink that I save enough on yearly to pay for the card. I buy household supplies there and maybe a clothing article or two. No 20 gallon vats of mayonnaise or 48 pair packs of socks though

They always have a car and usually a bike on display too. Fortunately Costco doesn't have a Ducati or BMW partnership.

robr2 said:

Aren't you a single guy? How many 12 packs of underwear can one person buy?

I go to BJ's here in the Boston area. I like going there on Saturday around noon. It's so much fun.

qbrozen · November 2015

yes, friday will be another car shopping day. I'll have to call about the blue one and get the history on it.

Also digging this, but its quite a drive for me.

stickguy · November 2015

I hate driving out to LI. At least not doing it tonight. That would take a while! Belt is a mess.

interesting carfax. Spent it's whole life on the Guyland. And looks to have pretty much sat at the dealer (30 miles in the last 6 months). They might be motivated.

corvette · November 2015

Dang, that thing shares a lot of interior parts with the Canyon/Colorado. I like the brown/black leather. Never noticed until now that the wheels are designed to appear as if they have a central tire inflation system, but I don't think they actually do.

28firefighter · November 2015

I'm going to be traveling tomorrow to the east coast, so I wanted to wish everyone here a Happy Thanksgiving!

I have quite a bit to be thankful for this year, this community being one of them.

nyccarguy · November 2015

Happy Thanksgiving to all! Hey @Mr_Shiftright - I think Mini knows you are on the prowl;). They are offering a $2200 thanksgiving weekend 11/27 - 11/29 cash toward any in stock 2015 Cooper S 2 Door.

carnaught · November 2015

gbrozen, I'd caution you on buying the H3. After the intitial honeymoon phase is over, I think you'll regret it. That's not to mention if market forces increase the price of gas, on top of it.

Mr_Shiftright · November 2015

I wasn't referring to a reading list. I was talking about driving an actual car . Anyway, a .7 skidpad result isn't very impressive, and Road and Track's 1971 Road Test says quite plainly "it doesn't have bundles of cornering power" and "there's a distinct bobbing motion to the ride". They also mention that they've had "considerable feedback" from owners of earlier 2500 and 2800 cars about mechanical problems.

Let's just agree to disagree on the Bavaria.

roadburner said:

Mr_Shiftright said:
As for handling, a number of contemporary auto mags mention it, (or lack of it) so I think I remember that part okay at least.

We must not have the same reading list.

BMW's power steering is light and quick but disappointingly lacking in feel. ...Otherwise the car's handling is exemplary.
BMW 2500 Road Test, Road & Track May 1969

Handling is best described as typically BMW, only better.
BMW 2500 Road Test, Autocar May 28, 1969

...if your existence is made joyful by precision devices and you wish to drive every inch of your journeys, than the BMW 2500 is the answer.
Pat Bedard, Car and Driver June 1969

In on-the-road handling the Bavaria is delightful, though with 175-14 tires it doesn't have bundles of cornering power.
BMW Bavaria Road Test, Road and Track August 1971

Once accustomed to the steering-some drivers didn't like it at first-the car feels quite sporting and agile for a large saloon. Even with only a single anti-roll bar at the front the car corners hard with little body roll.
BMW 3.0S Road Test, Motor March 25, 1972

Sandman6472 · November 2015

Gobble Gobble all. We're off to eat some turkey soon!

The Sandman

qbrozen · November 2015

carnaught said:

gbrozen, I'd caution you on buying the H3. After the intitial honeymoon phase is over, I think you'll regret it. That's not to mention if market forces increase the price of gas, on top of it.

So what makes you say that about the vehicle, other than gas?

qbrozen · November 2015

I'm pondering this one. It does have accident history, though:
http://www.jsautohaus.com/used/Land+Rover/2009-Land+Rover-LR2-3ac86b760a0e08bc0f8c62785c260419.htm

qbrozen · November 2015

She is also interested in checking this out:
http://www.jsautohaus.com/used/Acura/2008-Acura-RDX-441ddade404638125b044140d88aa324.htm

graphicguy · November 2015

qbrozen said:
yes, friday will be another car shopping day. I'll have to call about the blue one and get the history on it.

Also digging this, but its quite a drive for me.

Q...I'm liking the H3. Good looking interior. I'm thinking these things can be "bought right"?

Liking the RDX, too. But, I've always loved Acuras. Low enough miles that you'd be able to put another 100K on it with no problems.

A Rover? With an accident history? Probably stay far away from that.

stickguy · November 2015

both look nice. The LR is very snazzy. Good low miles on the RDX, but has she ever driven one? Not as big I don't think, and from what I understand a more "sporty" ride and handling.

nyccarguy · November 2015

@qbrozen - an Acura with under 50K on the clock? Looks like a winner. After '08 they butchered the front end. Turbo (check) AWD (check). Just change the oil, differential fluid, & transmission fluid. You'll be good to go.

carnaught · November 2015

4gitabottit, RECALLED

houdini1 · November 2015

I am nosing around a 2014 Lexus LS460 at a very reputable dealership. 11,000 local one owner miles, clean car fax. Orig. msrp. $81,500. Sale price $59,900. 3 years left on orig. warranty. It is at a Mercedes dealer. They have had it for 4 months and were originally asking $70,000. White over parchment and AWD.

Price looks pretty good to me, what do you guys think?

fintail · November 2015

Probably won't find a more reliable and comfortable modern barge for the money (and no doubt you could take another 10% off). It's looking pretty old now, even with the Predator maw, but I suppose most of the time you only see it from the inside

houdini1 · November 2015

Except for the grill, interior, and electronics, the basic style hasn't changed much since 2007. This would be my 3rd LS so I am very familiar with them. I like for someone else to absorb that first year depreciation though.

nyccarguy · November 2015

@houdini1 - I'll echo what @fintail said. Like you said, it will be your 3rd, same bones since 2007, bulletproof Lexus. See what @qbrozen says about the auction number & throw something at the wall to see if it sticks!

graphicguy · November 2015

houdini1 said:
I am nosing around a 2014 Lexus LS460 at a very reputable dealership. 11,000 local one owner miles, clean car fax. Orig. msrp. $81,500. Sale price $59,900. 3 years left on orig. warranty. It is at a Mercedes dealer. They have had it for 4 months and were originally asking $70,000. White over parchment and AWD.

Price looks pretty good to me, what do you guys think?

Hard to go wrong on that one. Not sure on the value, but sure sounds like a pretty good deal at anything under $60K....especially with a clean record and that much warranty left. Maybe throw $55K out there at it and tell them that's a number that gets a deal done TODAY!

carnaught · November 2015

houdini, I'm in agreement with Graphic's assessment and approach. Would you trade your old one, or sell it outright?

carnaught · November 2015

qbrozen said:

carnaught said:

gbrozen, I'd caution you on buying the H3. After the intitial honeymoon phase is over, I think you'll regret it. That's not to mention if market forces increase the price of gas, on top of it.

So what makes you say that about the vehicle, other than gas?

Heavy, slow, poor gas mileage, and not crazy about Hummer looks, but all IMHO.

houdini1 · November 2015

carnaught said:
houdini, I'm in agreement with Graphic's assessment and approach. Would you trade your old one, or sell it outright?

Would just depend on what they offered for mine. 2010 LS awd, only 30,000. miles and excellent condition. Silver over grey. I figure maybe $31,000. value. The only reason I am hesitating is that I don't really need a new car right now...but we only have one Lexus dealer and you would never find this car on their lot for this price. It would be more like $66 or $67 thousand. So....

nyccarguy · November 2015

@houdini1 - "I don't really need a new car right now..."

none of us ever do (unless a lease is up). What better excuse to punch the CCBA card than - "it's a good deal"

houdini1 · November 2015

LOL, it is cold, windy, wet, freezing rain, and icy here today. If I still have the fever and the car is still available I may give it a try tomorrow.

qbrozen · November 2015

Long day of car shopping with nothing to share but some boring stories. I wish I had a buck for every time today I was asked "sir, how did you arrive at your offer price?"

Checked out a number of vehicles around western NJ and into PA. Saw the green SRX i think I posted a while back, but we weren't happy with the condition. The LR2 with accident history was nice but they wouldn't come down off their price enough to justify buying one with that carfax. Called about that $9995 LR2 and he told me the rear diff is blown. Wife sat in the RDX and didn't like it.

anyway, we did learn that we really like the Lexus RX. First drove an '05 rx330 with 70k miles. We were very impressed. Sadly, that one had accident history with airbag deployment. Next up was a 400h with 90k miles. Now here's the funnier story of the day. I believe stickguy is familiar with this dealer from their loud-mouthed radio ads about being the #1 hyundai dealer and typically offering very suspicious incentives. Well, I can now report on part of the reason for the incentives: $1333 in dealer fees! They have a line item for detailing and prep, one for window etching (on a used car?!), and a high $495 doc fee. I could only laugh. I told him to chop $995 off the sale price and lose those other 2 BS fees. They weren't biting. Oh well.

by now, its 5pm and I decide to call it quits. On the way home, we happened by another dealer with a 2006 H3. Miles are high but for the right price...I didn't want to dance around so before even looking at the truck, I told him the price was way high and what I was willing to offer. He said no dice. Like everyone else today, he asked where i got my number. Rather than explain it again and confuse yet another salesman, I just showed him the couple of newer models with lower miles for the same price I already had on my phone. He said I should buy one of those. OK.

Sandman6472 · November 2015

I figured she'd like the RDX to be honest coming from a Town & Country. Why the need for a fourth vehicle anyways? I can see having three so it would keep some miles off both the other vehicles, where you both share vehicle #3, but four? Seems like one too many.
What am I missing here?
Personally, I'd love to have a third vehicle here, a fun one like a drop top BMW but the wife wasn't too keen on the idea when I wanted to do it back in late 2013. Figured I'd keep the '06 Civic and get that '05 BMW drop top to use on nice days. At that point, the Civic had 46k on it and the BMW 34k and since I only did about 11k/year, would split the mileage between the two and keep them both for a long while. She nixed the idea right away saying one would have to be left outside as our garage only fits two vehicles. Told her let me worry about that but still, was told negatory!!

The Sandman

nyccarguy · November 2015

@qbrozen - "anyway, we did learn that we really like the Lexus RX."

I mentioned the sick lease deals out there on the '15 RX a few weeks ago & someone said: but then you'd be stuck driving an RX for 3 years! Ha! Just breakin chops. Good luck with your search! I remember someone saying to stay away from the '09 RX

fintail · November 2015

I bet car shopping in a place with famous attitudes like NJ is just a barrel of fun

Not needing a new car is even better reason to lowball on that LS just to see if it works. Offer 54-55 and see what happens. Nothing to lose, and you still have a nice car even if they laugh.

qbrozen · November 2015

sandman_6472 said:

I figured she'd like the RDX to be honest coming from a Town & Country. Why the need for a fourth vehicle anyways? I can see having three so it would keep some miles off both the other vehicles, where you both share vehicle #3, but four? Seems like one too many. What am I missing here? Personally, I'd love to have a third vehicle here, a fun one like a drop top BMW but the wife wasn't too keen on the idea when I wanted to do it back in late 2013. Figured I'd keep the '06 Civic and get that '05 BMW drop top to use on nice days. At that point, the Civic had 46k on it and the BMW 34k and since I only did about 11k/year, would split the mileage between the two and keep them both for a long while. She nixed the idea right away saying one would have to be left outside as our garage only fits two vehicles. Told her let me worry about that but still, was told negatory!! The Sandman

She didn't like the seating position of the RDX.

as for 4 vehicles, the s70 is very tired right now. She has made a bit of a mess with it. I'll be taking that off the road for at least part of the winter to get it back up to snuff. Meanwhile, the Caddy has no business running around in the snow. Oh, and there is also that business of us driving a buttload of miles, so its nice to spread it out.

the dealer with the 400h texted me tonight saying the GM wants me to come back in. I'm ignoring it.

stever · November 2015

I still don't get the "spreading the miles around" stuff.

If you mile your cars up, you have an even better excuse to trade for a new one. Might be fun to appraise one with low miles vs one with normal or high miles and see what the dollar hit is. That amount is likely more than offset by the extra taxes and registration and insurance.

28firefighter · November 2015

I hate when dealers ask how I arrive at my number, mainly because when I present it, it's already broken out. They just don't like it and want me to talk myself out of it.

nyccarguy · November 2015

I get his "spread the miles around" logic completely. @qbrozen is smart. He knows it's not "cheaper" to buy a 2nd car for him & his wife to drive. It does give them each a chance to drive something different. When you drive more than average like we do it gets frustrating at trade in time to hear that your car is "in perfect shape," but the miles "kill it."

For instance, my wife drives her pilot out of necessity. I know she doesn't LOVE it. Given the choice, she'd much rather drive a sedan or a smaller car around town. We have 3 kids and live in New England, hence the SUV & 4WD. Our Pilot is almost paid off. I don't want to buy another $40K SUV. Now if one of these days I can find her a smokin lease deal on a MINI Cooper S for less than $250 per month would I jump on it? Yes. She's got a 5 mile commute round trip. So if I lease her a car for 10K per year, drive her Pilot 1 week a month I instead of my Legacy, that would save me about 5 k miles per year on the Subie. 15K per year is a lot easier pill to swallow than 20K per year.

is the Subaru going to be worth $9K more ($250 x 36)? No.

roadburner · November 2015

28firefighter said:
I hate when dealers ask how I arrive at my number, mainly because when I present it, it's already broken out. They just don't like it and want me to talk myself out of it.

No one has tried that on me in a while; I just tell them, "That's what I think your car is worth to me." or "That's all I'm willing to pay for your car."
Screw 'em.

stever · November 2015

Shopper needs hatch suggestions. Thanks!

graphicguy · November 2015

28firefighter said:
I hate when dealers ask how I arrive at my number, mainly because when I present it, it's already broken out. They just don't like it and want me to talk myself out of it.

I concur. When dealers ask me that, I tell them the number came from a proprietary equation that takes into account date, condition of vehicle, demand, and the amount of money in my wallet.

Or, sometimes I say..."same way you came up with your number...magic"!

Then there's the old.."we've got more in the car than what you're offering." Which I reply..."I thought you guys were smarter than to overpay for a car".

Anyway, I don't know why it matters how one comes up with an offer. It doesn't change anything.

kyfdx · November 2015

28firefighter said:
I hate when dealers ask how I arrive at my number, mainly because when I present it, it's already broken out. They just don't like it and want me to talk myself out of it.

I'm a pretty nice guy, in person (no, really!). But, when I get questions like that, my answer is usually along the lines of, "What the ---- does that matter? It's a real offer, in US dollars".

Things tend to go downhill after that..

imidazol97 · November 2015

roadburner said:

28firefighter said:
I hate when dealers ask how I arrive at my number, mainly because when I present it, it's already broken out. They just don't like it and want me to talk myself out of it.
No one has tried that on me in a while; I just tell them, "That's what I think your car is worth to me." or "That's all I'm willing to pay for your car."
Screw 'em.

I see that as their attempt to take control of the conversation. When the customer takes control with a flat, definite offer, the customer is in control instead of being the usual wishy-washy customer saying how low can you go or how cheap can I get this for and passively waiting for the dealer to be "nice" to him/her.

Frankly, I like GG's method of having a spreadsheet printed or onscreen showing his algorithm to get to the final price. It's just like when the dealer lays out a 4-square or shows a printed order sheet with the dealer markup "document fee" already printed on it in black ink. Then they have the chutzpah to say that's so different people aren't treated differently with some resisting paying a fee and others not knowing they could fight it, allowing for a lawsuit against the dealership. Wouldn't leaving that $250 doc fee OFF also allow everyone to be treated the same? Ridiculous logic from some of those folks selling cars.

carnaught · November 2015

Some states have fixed doc. fees, not so in mine. Doc.fees around me range from $295-499, and are non-negotiable. In the process of hammering out my offer, I ask them for their doc. fees, and "other fees" which would show up on the final bill of sale. I tell them, what they know, that doc.fees are "pure profit" for the dealership, and my offer will reflect it.

Funny, how I never have been asked, "how did you come up with your offer", but I agree with the responses above. Once I give my offer, or counter-offer for a car, and hold to it, I often come back with "it's the price I am comfortable with, and will not go higher". Mrs. Carnaught usually at his point says, "yeah, he's walked on as little as $200 differences" (true), and more than 50% of the time, after the salesperson comes back from talking to the "manager", after a last ditch effort to get me higher, says "we have a deal". I then tell them, it is subject to my reviewing the final contract, and the final figures. I tell them, in the process, that I want the "out the door price", and that if there is anything tacked-on, that will end the deal, and I will walk. That has actually happened a few times, and they capitulated

I think most of us work it very similarly. I don't think my deals, through the years, are getting better, but, I try not to get so infatuated with my car, that after they have worn me out waiting for, and with the finance guy, that I will miss something that I will only end up regretting later.

nyccarguy · November 2015

@roadburner - I mentioned a few weeks ago that my best friend went to test drive an STi. He walked into the showroom that had no cars in it, just desks & offices. The receptionist asks if he's here to see a specific sales person or if he scheduled an appointment? He answers no to both questions. She asks him to have a seat. He said the dealership was dead. He was the only person in the showroom who wasn't an employee. After 5 minutes of sitting, he gets up to walk out. Then a sales guy comes over.

"Hi. Welcome to xxx Subaru. I'm xxx. What's your name?"

My best friend says: "Hi I'm Scott. I'm interested in an STi."

He proceeds to "interview" my friend asking him where he lives, what does he do for a living, if he's married, any children...

Next he starts asking automotive related questions. What kind of car he drives. What is he looking for in his next car. What features. How many miles per year do you drive?

My friend gets up and makes like he's going to leave right in the middle of the guy's word:

"Is everything OK sir?"

"Yes. You made me sit here and wait for 5 minutes, now you've been interviewing me for another 5 minutes. I told you 5 minutes ago that I'm interested in an STi. Do you have one I can sit in & see if it is even comfortable for me?"

Right then & there the sales "interview ended" & the guy took my friend onto the lot and showed him some cars. He said the guy was totally cool on the test drive. He even told my friend to push it a little harder. My friend declined.

They got back to the dealership. He asks my friend what he thinks. My friend gives him his overall impressions.

"Ok, so would you like to buy the car now? We charge MSRP."

My friend replied: "Sounds fantastic. I'll pay sticker for your car if you pay sticker for my 2015 Tahoe outside and write me a check for the difference."

stever · November 2015

Salesguy pulled the "what we have in it" nonsense when we bought the van last year. Told him that had nothing to do with the value of the car. Wish I had though about GG's "you overpaid" comeback.

28firefighter · November 2015

All good responses from everyone and I've used many of them in some form. But my favorite is "does it really matter if we have a deal?"

carnaught · November 2015

Re: playing the "what we have in it" card, I've not experienced it, but I like...."and how's that my problem?"

imidazol97 · November 2015

carnaught said:
Some states have fixed doc. fees, not so in mine. Doc.fees around me range from $295-499, and are non-negotiable. In the process of hammering out my offer, I ask them for their doc. fees, and "other fees" which would show up on the final bill of sale.

The "fixed" doc fees in Ohio were a statement of the maximum the dealer could charge; they did not require the dealer to charge that much or any at all. I read the Ohio Code. In fact, I had the printout of the code in my briefcase when I negotiated for the Cobalt 6 years ago. Now Ohio's law changed regarding the fee. Shows what power the dealer lobby has. The original fee was applicable to time contracts--I was paying cash do document fee was not applicable since it was remuneration for the dealer for the time and personnel to process the payment contract and peddle it to a lender.

brian125 · November 2015

Fl. has the highest doc fee's in the country. What a scam. Makes Ohio seem like a bargain.

Florida doc fee's are incredible high $699 to 899. A lot of dealers do lower sale prices of there vehicles but for a non savvy / 1st time buyer you know dealers are getting over on them.

I bought a 2003 Honda pilot out by you in OH, Beaver creek @Hidy Honda doc's at the time were $50.

roadburner · November 2015

nyccarguy said:
@roadburner - I mentioned a few weeks ago that my best friend went to test drive an STi. He walked into the showroom that had no cars in it, just desks & offices. The receptionist asks if he's here to see a specific sales person or if he scheduled an appointment? He answers no to both questions. She asks him to have a seat. He said the dealership was dead. He was the only person in the showroom who wasn't an employee. After 5 minutes of sitting, he gets up to walk out. Then a sales guy comes over.

"Hi. Welcome to xxx Subaru. I'm xxx. What's your name?"

My best friend says: "Hi I'm Scott. I'm interested in an STi."

He proceeds to "interview" my friend asking him where he lives, what does he do for a living, if he's married, any children...

Next he starts asking automotive related questions. What kind of car he drives. What is he looking for in his next car. What features. How many miles per year do you drive?

My friend gets up and makes like he's going to leave right in the middle of the guy's word:

"Is everything OK sir?"

"Yes. You made me sit here and wait for 5 minutes, now you've been interviewing me for another 5 minutes. I told you 5 minutes ago that I'm interested in an STi. Do you have one I can sit in & see if it is even comfortable for me?"

Right then & there the sales "interview ended" & the guy took my friend onto the lot and showed him some cars. He said the guy was totally cool on the test drive. He even told my friend to push it a little harder. My friend declined.

They got back to the dealership. He asks my friend what he thinks. My friend gives him his overall impressions.

"Ok, so would you like to buy the car now? We charge MSRP."

My friend replied: "Sounds fantastic. I'll pay sticker for your car if you pay sticker for my 2015 Tahoe outside and write me a check for the difference."

The Subaru dealers that I have talked with have been willing to knock a thousand or two off of MSRP, but I do think the STIs hold their value exceptionally well. I've seen some previous generation STIs advertised for almost as much as used 2015 cars- although part of that may be due to the fact that some STI fans prefer the hatch, which is NLA.

houdini1 · November 2015

I have decided to pass on the 2014 Lexus LS. Reason? Just too many other ways to spend and enjoy that $30,000.+ difference I would have to cough up. Just a matter of priorities.

corvette · November 2015

$30k will pay for a lot of vacations.

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