What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

stever · January 2016

Saved the best for last:

"It's a great time to buy a used/ new TDI!"

Ruking says diesel has a future in the U.S. (Edmunds.com)

Mr_Shiftright · January 2016

Well what you expect Bosch and Audi execs to say? I hope they're right, as variety is the spice of life.

I thought the discussion with Mazda was pretty interesting. Basically Mazda was saying that they didn't bring a diesel version of the Mazda6 to the USA because they weren't able to meet emissions standards AND reach their performance goals. When they boosted performance, they didn't meet U.S. emissions standards. When they met the U.S. standards (which they accomplished), they couldn't meet the performance goals unless they resorted to external after-combustion devices (like MB does, etc).

I found this interesting because it illuminates the VW motive to defraud its customers. It was the only way to get their current TDIs (current at that time I mean) to meet standards without external devices.

The new TDIs do conform, as they have a different engine in 2015/16, but for some reason the U.S. won't let them be available for sale. I have no idea why these sales are being held up.

The PM journalist by the way, has always been a strong diesel advocate, as he mentions, so I don't think charges of bias apply. He may be wrong but I think he's being fair enough.

texases · January 2016

The fact that the Cruze diesel has lost most of its mpg advantage over the 'Eco' gasser (as did the TDI Jetta over the 1.4 l turbo gasser) makes the extra $$ for a diesel harder to justify in small cars. Not the same for a pickup or midsize+ SUV.

ruking1 · January 2016

Bottom line: Simply a NO story! BUT loads in the Horse S--- & GUN SMOKE department ! There are no real basis in #'s! So, while a much higher diesel car PVF %: like Europes' 51% plus would seriously DROP the barrels of oil demand , it is easy to see that a US PVF gas % of 95% to 97% is geared for more gas use & GREATER barrels of oil demand! ! What about a very long time DIESEL small niche market (3% to5%) is difficult to understand?

Mr_Shiftright · January 2016

VW's new Jetta SE 1.4T might put a serious dent in any future TDI sales, with 39 mpg highway, (2014 Jetta TDI was 42 mpg hiway) and lots of Tech features standard at around $22,000 MSRP--about $5K less than the '14 TDI.

ruking1 · January 2016

Mr_Shiftright said:
VW's new Jetta SE 1.4T might put a serious dent in any future TDI sales, with 39 mpg highway, (2014 Jetta TDI was 42 mpg hiway) and lots of Tech features standard at around $22,000 MSRP--about $5K less than the '14 TDI.

To be fair, VW needs to increase their 2016/2017/2018 MY's sales volumes and percentages with or without diesel. The VW diesel ban currently, even as they meet the certifications is one form of EPA/CARB punishment and a bargaining chip for FINES to be levied. So really, this is a seriously GREAT time for VW's diesel competitors! This would tend to increase diesel sales volume, aks a slow rise in diesel %.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2016

Well former TDI shoppers aren't going to cross-shop Mercedes so that doesn't leave them too many places to go. The Cruze diesel is certainly a competitor in price, power and economy. Last I read, no manual transmission though.

ruking1 · January 2016

Mr_Shiftright said:
Well former TDI shoppers aren't going to cross-shop Mercedes so that doesn't leave them too many places to go.

To state the obvious, I/We did. The waters are just fine! I'm not so sure the other diesel OEMs are targeting former to potential VW 2.0 L TDI owners! Some of the reasons are obvious and not so obvious. Audi (another VW company) would be another logical "go to" choice . My guess is not much is happening on the Audi side.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2016

It's not obvious to me though why a cross shopper would be pricing Car B with an MSRP 2X that of Car A? If that's the latitude of "cross-shopping" then everyone is a cross shopper on every car.

Michaell · January 2016

Mr_Shiftright said:
It's not obvious to me though why a cross shopper would be pricing Car B with an MSRP 2X that of Car A? If that's the latitude of "cross-shopping" then everyone is a cross shopper on every car.

Exactly .. I've got a budget and Audi, BMW and MB are not in it.

stever · January 2016

How about comparing one that has an invoice 50% higher than another? I just priced out a Soul and Encore and Prius ten minutes ago, and the spread on the base models is $20k to $30k. Not two times, but a pretty significant jump, and more that the typical diesel "tax" for like models.

andres3 · January 2016

I would think someone looking for a little extra oomph might still prefer the 2.0 TDI to the 1.4T, and then you get a couple extra MPG to boot? Also, does the 1.4T get the sophisticated DSG Auto or the antiquated 99 cent store slushbox?

ruking1 · January 2016

stever said:
How about comparing one that has an invoice 50% higher than another? I just priced out a Soul and Encore and Prius ten minutes ago, and the spread on the base models is $20k to $30k. Not two times, but a pretty significant jump, and more that the typical diesel "tax" for like models.

This is a very significant point! The spreads on gassers have been/ remain/are far greater than the "diesel" premium.

ruking1 · January 2016

andres3 said:
I would think someone looking for a little extra oomph might still prefer the 2.0 TDI to the 1.4T, and then you get a couple extra MPG to boot? Also, does the 1.4T get the sophisticated DSG Auto or the antiquated 99 cent store slushbox?

Again, a very significant point, but I don't think the volume is compelling!? It is also compelling that the 1.4 L T did not get the DSG, or a stout 7 to 8 sped A/T!

Michaell · January 2016

andres3 said:
I would think someone looking for a little extra oomph might still prefer the 2.0 TDI to the 1.4T, and then you get a couple extra MPG to boot? Also, does the 1.4T get the sophisticated DSG Auto or the antiquated 99 cent store slushbox?

The 1.4T gets a conventional 6-speed automatic, not the DSG.

I wouldn't miss it. The one test drive I took with a car equipped with the DSG, I didn't much care for the "feel" of the transmission. Plus the extra maintenance costs associated with it.

Michaell · January 2016

stever said:
How about comparing one that has an invoice 50% higher than another? I just priced out a Soul and Encore and Prius ten minutes ago, and the spread on the base models is $20k to $30k. Not two times, but a pretty significant jump, and more that the typical diesel "tax" for like models.

The high end versions of the Encore and Prius can easily surpass the $30K barrier; the Soul can get into the upper $20's with all the packages added in.

gagrice · January 2016

Diesel gate has to be a real liberal dilemma. Do we continue to go after high CO2 producing gas vehicles or do we chase the boogie man NOx?

I followed a large stake bed truck this morning, until I was able to get around it on Interstate 8. The license plate was too dirty to tell where he was from. It had two exhaust stacks and was spewing black soot in enormous amounts. Really smelled bad. I just wondered if he was putting out more NOx & PM than all the VW TDI vehicles combined. I suspect he was up from Mexico. We get a lot of them. I have never seen one pulled over by the CHP.

gagrice · January 2016

stever said:
"Robert Bosch, a key supplier of diesel components to Volkswagen, has gone public with a vigorous defense of the technology, even as VW remains embroiled in a dispute with U.S. regulators over the steps it must take to fix its diesel emissions systems."

Bosch says diesel has a future in the U.S. (Automotive News)

This statement from Bosch is exactly what I was saying above. Meeting strict CO2 regs to limit GW may not happen without diesel cars.

If diesels' share of European sales falls below 45 percent or so, Degenhart said, "it would have a very negative consequence for the automakers. They would have a serious problem meeting the 2020 goals" for carbon dioxide reduction.

Of course the US is great at Kicking the can on down the road, whatever the issue may be.

ruking1 · January 2016

Perhaps that is the real plan, to totally exceed the 2020 CO2 standards & by a whole lot! The US PVF diesel @ 3 to 5% is no where near Europe's 51% diesel!

Mr_Shiftright · January 2016

andres3 said:
I would think someone looking for a little extra oomph might still prefer the 2.0 TDI to the 1.4T, and then you get a couple extra MPG to boot? Also, does the 1.4T get the sophisticated DSG Auto or the antiquated 99 cent store slushbox?

Not sure there's any extra oomph there...the 0-60 times for the '14 TDI and '16 SE are about the same. The transmission listed is a "6-speed automatic" but I didn't see anything about DSG so far. The 1.4T is a fairly zippy little engine, at least compared to the old 2.0 (woof, woof!).

ruking1 · January 2016

I am sure! The torque is still 236 # ft versus 184 # ft of torque. Try to add 52# ft of torque to a gasser to match the diesel output, and the numbers become very clear!

stever · January 2016

Probably have to go to a pure EV to trump others on torque.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2016

Well the stats don't see much of a difference in real world acceleration, (perhaps .3 or .4 of a second zero-60) although I'm sure the two cars "feel" different---less turbo lag for instance on the TDI, but also less rev-happy as the engines both wind up.

As nice as the extra torque is on a TDI, it's not like an EV, with all the torque pretty much the moment you step on the gas.

The advantages of the more efficient diesel engine don't jump out at most people.

texases · January 2016

The difference in CO2 emissions isn't as great as the mpg difference. Diesel puts out about 20% more CO2 per gallon used than E10 gasoline, so a diesel car has to make 20% better mpgs to break even on CO2. I don't doubt that the warped EU mileage figures over-exaggerate the differences.

ruking1 · January 2016

stever said:
Probably have to go to a pure EV to trump others on torque.

Per se yes, but there are a lot of disadvantages.

gagrice · January 2016

Wonder if this is a VW diesel.

http://trailerassist.volkswagen.no/en/

Mr_Shiftright · January 2016

ruking1 said:

stever said:
Probably have to go to a pure EV to trump others on torque.
Per se yes, but there are a lot of disadvantages.

I like to think of the Tesla S as a Mercedes diesel but with a 9 gallon gas tank and a 1/8th inch diameter filler neck

andres3 · January 2016

Michaell said:

andres3 said:
I would think someone looking for a little extra oomph might still prefer the 2.0 TDI to the 1.4T, and then you get a couple extra MPG to boot? Also, does the 1.4T get the sophisticated DSG Auto or the antiquated 99 cent store slushbox?
The 1.4T gets a conventional 6-speed automatic, not the DSG.

I wouldn't miss it. The one test drive I took with a car equipped with the DSG, I didn't much care for the "feel" of the transmission. Plus the extra maintenance costs associated with it.

What was that one DSG vehicle test drive in? I have to admit, the TDI DSG is a lot lazier in "D" mode than I'd like, but I guess that's how they squeeze the EPA for great fuel economy numbers. Maintenance costs of the DSG are probably greatly outweighed by the fuel savings vs. conventional 6-speed auto.

Michaell · January 2016

andres3 said:

Michaell said:

andres3 said:
I would think someone looking for a little extra oomph might still prefer the 2.0 TDI to the 1.4T, and then you get a couple extra MPG to boot? Also, does the 1.4T get the sophisticated DSG Auto or the antiquated 99 cent store slushbox?
The 1.4T gets a conventional 6-speed automatic, not the DSG.

I wouldn't miss it. The one test drive I took with a car equipped with the DSG, I didn't much care for the "feel" of the transmission. Plus the extra maintenance costs associated with it.
What was that one DSG vehicle test drive in? I have to admit, the TDI DSG is a lot lazier in "D" mode than I'd like, but I guess that's how they squeeze the EPA for great fuel economy numbers. Maintenance costs of the DSG are probably greatly outweighed by the fuel savings vs. conventional 6-speed auto.

I test drove a used CC with the DSG a few years back. Have they been improved since then?

Mr_Shiftright · January 2016

I think a DSG and diesel turbo are a very nice marriage of technologies.

stever · January 2016

Heh, it's not too often that New Mexico is first in something:

"New Mexico is suing Volkswagen and other German automakers over an emissions cheating scandal that involves millions of cars worldwide, the first state to do so but almost certainly not the last.

“Supported by a massive advertising campaign, defendants claimed that superior engineering allowed their cars to perform better, consume less fuel and emit fewer harmful pollutants than diesel cars of the past, making them a great fit for eco-conscious consumers. In fact, the complete opposite was true,” the lawsuit states."

New Mexico sues Volkswagen over emissions scandal (Las Cruces Sun News)

fintail · January 2016

Ah the well funded public sector prosecutor warriors, looking for attention and ego.

From what I know, the cars performed better, consumed less fuel, and emitted less pollutants than old diesels - no matter if they cheated or not. Sounds kind of tenuous. Gotta get in on the gravy train, I suppose.

texases · January 2016

All lawsuits are based on the laws of the day, not 20 years prior.

houdini1 · January 2016

stever said:
Heh, it's not too often that New Mexico is first in something:

"New Mexico is suing Volkswagen and other German automakers over an emissions cheating scandal that involves millions of cars worldwide, the first state to do so but almost certainly not the last.

“Supported by a massive advertising campaign, defendants claimed that superior engineering allowed their cars to perform better, consume less fuel and emit fewer harmful pollutants than diesel cars of the past, making them a great fit for eco-conscious consumers. In fact, the complete opposite was true,” the lawsuit states."

New Mexico sues Volkswagen over emissions scandal (Las Cruces Sun News)

Hmmm...it would seem that all those things VW claimed, could, in fact, be well defended as being true.

gagrice · January 2016

stever said:
Heh, it's not too often that New Mexico is first in something:

"New Mexico is suing Volkswagen and other German automakers over an emissions cheating scandal that involves millions of cars worldwide, the first state to do so but almost certainly not the last.

“Supported by a massive advertising campaign, defendants claimed that superior engineering allowed their cars to perform better, consume less fuel and emit fewer harmful pollutants than diesel cars of the past, making them a great fit for eco-conscious consumers. In fact, the complete opposite was true,” the lawsuit states."

New Mexico sues Volkswagen over emissions scandal (Las Cruces Sun News)

Silly New Mexico, just wasting tax payers money. They don't have a clue what the violation is if you can believe the lawsuit.

Prosecutors say the vehicles exceeded average nitrogen oxides emission limits by as much as 30 to 40 percent. Such pollution contributes to smog and has been linked with serious health effects such as asthma attacks.

Only place the test cars is Albuquerque. So how many vehicles we talking about a dozen?

http://www.mvd.newmexico.gov/emission-testing.aspx

andres3 · January 2016

Michaell said:

andres3 said:

Michaell said:

andres3 said:
I would think someone looking for a little extra oomph might still prefer the 2.0 TDI to the 1.4T, and then you get a couple extra MPG to boot? Also, does the 1.4T get the sophisticated DSG Auto or the antiquated 99 cent store slushbox?
The 1.4T gets a conventional 6-speed automatic, not the DSG.

I wouldn't miss it. The one test drive I took with a car equipped with the DSG, I didn't much care for the "feel" of the transmission. Plus the extra maintenance costs associated with it.
What was that one DSG vehicle test drive in? I have to admit, the TDI DSG is a lot lazier in "D" mode than I'd like, but I guess that's how they squeeze the EPA for great fuel economy numbers. Maintenance costs of the DSG are probably greatly outweighed by the fuel savings vs. conventional 6-speed auto.
I test drove a used CC with the DSG a few years back. Have they been improved since then?

Depends on the car and the generation. Seems they always tend towards more smoothness in more modern examples; emulating normal automatics better. I absolutely love the 7-speed DSG iteration in my S4. Perfect transmission that helps me to achieve up to 30 MPG in a heavy fast car at high speed provided no one gets in my way.

texases · January 2016

The DSG has its detractors - Car and Driver weren't fans of a prior years (rough clutch action), nor was Edmunds on their 2015 GTI:
http://www.edmunds.com/volkswagen/golf-gti/2015/long-term-road-test/2015-volkswagen-golf-gti-could-be-slicker-in-the-city.html

Mr_Shiftright · January 2016

stever said:
Heh, it's not too often that New Mexico is first in something:

"New Mexico is suing Volkswagen and other German automakers over an emissions cheating scandal that involves millions of cars worldwide, the first state to do so but almost certainly not the last.

“Supported by a massive advertising campaign, defendants claimed that superior engineering allowed their cars to perform better, consume less fuel and emit fewer harmful pollutants than diesel cars of the past, making them a great fit for eco-conscious consumers. In fact, the complete opposite was true,” the lawsuit states."

New Mexico sues Volkswagen over emissions scandal (Las Cruces Sun News)

New Mexico is also in the Top Ten states for DUI convictions, so stand tall Steve!

texases · January 2016

New Mexico will have to get in line with South Korea:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/south-korea-to-sue-audi-volkswagen-head-1453175077?mod=e2tw

Mr_Shiftright · January 2016

There could be a silver lining in this for VW. They could shift all their diesel tech to larger vehicles only, like SUVs and CUVs.

The reasoning behind this idea is that a small diesel car in 2016 offers little advantage, percentage wise, in HP or fuel economy, to a small gasoline car, whereas a diesel in a larger SUV gives a pretty big percentage boost in MPG and certainly move the Big Lump off the line a lot faster.

One might speculate that VW would move into larger sedans, but Americans have soundly rejected large diesel luxury sedans, so I don't see that changing anytime soon.

ruking1 · January 2016

I would agree with the silver lining! I would only disagree with the small diesel conclusion. The MB 2.1 L BT engine. @ 369# ft of torque posts some serious grunt! If VW would match the grunt, I'd love that in the small car ! But yes I would agree it works in the CUV/SUV compact to full sized segment . Not fully germane to VWs marketing plan is the AM PVF is 25% small cars &75% mid sized cars to light trucks.

ruking1 · January 2016

Mr_Shiftright said:
There could be a silver lining in this for VW. They could shift all their diesel tech to larger vehicles only, like SUVs and CUVs.

The reasoning behind this idea is that a small diesel car in 2016 offers little advantage, percentage wise, in HP or fuel economy, to a small gasoline car, whereas a diesel in a larger SUV gives a pretty big percentage boost in MPG and certainly move the Big Lump off the line a lot faster.

One might speculate that VW would move into larger sedans, but Americans have soundly rejected large diesel luxury sedans, so I don't see that changing anytime soon.

There are definitely silver linings. To only motivate larger cars would be a waste. I would disagree with your first premise, given the M B 2.1 L TwinTurbo BT (Blue Tec) 369# ft of torque! I'd love to have this in a (compact) small car! In many ways it would be ideal. Needless to say, a 1.5 L TDI option is also a very good mpg poster. But putting the right diesel engine in the CUV/SUV segment, compact to full sized makes all the sense in the world .

Here might be a slant on why GM got so many get out of jail free cards ! https://www.yahoo.com/autos/it-s-obama-auto-industry-1347441215316022.html

andres3 · January 2016

I wouldn't mind an A6 TDI luxury cruiser.

gagrice · January 2016

There could be a silver lining in this for VW. They could shift all their diesel tech to larger vehicles only, like SUVs and CUVs.

Fine with me, as I see little need for small cars, except golf carts. I would like to see a small PU with diesel. I also think the 2.1L MB diesel is a great engine. If VW were to be forced out of the market and bought back my Touareg TDI, I would head to my MB dealer and buy the GLE300 BlueTec. I would check out the GLC diesel as well. I like a bit more room. I am glad Mercedes is putting the smaller diesel into a midsized SUV.

ruking1 · January 2016

To Shifty's point, it bears mentioning diesels have been & remains & are a good fit for mid sized to full sized SUVs to light trucks. The 4,800 # 1994 TLC gets 12 to 16 mpg, call it 15 mpg. The 2012 VW Touareg TDI (4,980 #'s) posts 31 to 38 mpg, call it 33 mpg. 18 mpg/120% better is a pretty good improvement! If I didnt have the 30 year goal for the TLC's, I wouldn't look back! I'm glad the TLCs are "iconic", so no issues trying to sell it !

So really, there's no issues in my mind about running the diesels out to 250,000 to 300,000 miles. At like miles, I'm having way LESS issues with the diesels than I do with the gassers!

I should have done this in the first place, but I'm getting a full capacity rated 7,700# hitch set up installed !

Mr_Shiftright · January 2016

The Mercedes GLE Blue Tec is a great setup. Little diesel cars aren't sports car. Giving them 300+ whatever ft. lbs of torque is pointless. Diesels are happiest moving big things around. You don't see diesel motorcycles or diesel runabouts.

ruking1 · January 2016

Mr_Shiftright said:
The Mercedes GLE Blue Tec is a great setup. Little diesel cars aren't sports car. Giving them 300+ whatever ft. lbs of torque is pointless. Diesels are happiest moving big things around. You don't see diesel motorcycles or diesel runabouts.

Well for sure, this is a issue that we agree to disagree.

fintail · January 2016

Have you seen any word that we will get the GLC diesel?

gagrice said:

Fine with me, as I see little need for small cars, except golf carts. I would like to see a small PU with diesel. I also think the 2.1L MB diesel is a great engine. If VW were to be forced out of the market and bought back my Touareg TDI, I would head to my MB dealer and buy the GLE300 BlueTec. I would check out the GLC diesel as well. I like a bit more room. I am glad Mercedes is putting the smaller diesel into a midsized SUV.

fintail · January 2016

That's even more amusing. SK is an insanely nationalistic market - I can't imagine more than a handful of VAG diesels sell there. I guess this is a "show yourself" moment for the prosecutor class.

texases said:
New Mexico will have to get in line with South Korea:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/south-korea-to-sue-audi-volkswagen-head-1453175077?mod=e2tw

ruking1 · January 2016

Yep! IF they box us out of their country by tariffs, the least we can do is match or exceed their boxing out tariffs! It's time to stop making stooge deals ! The same is true with the Japanese, etc., OEM products ! We should begin by pulling our troops from places (like ROK & Japan) that seem not to be economically friendly to us.

What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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