Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous

Mr_Shiftright · January 2016

So I tracked down one of the Bay Area's leading Porsche engine builders and racing specialists yesterday---the guy has creds, and his own engine building room and dynamometer room, where he tests and breaks-in engines after building them.

We talked about the life expectancy of a Porsche 996 engine at 150K, and basically his reply was pretty blunt:

He said: "Lets face it. On the 996, Porsche purposely built a 100,000 mile engine"

Translation--any 996 engine over 100K is on borrowed time, and with rebuilds costing $18,000 and up, the entire car is on borrowed time.

His recommendation? Buy a 2001-2005 Turbo, because it doesn't use the same block. That however, is a $35,000 proposition.

stickguy · January 2016

Michael, find something close to home that you can inspect, and probably cheaper than in SoCal. Then drive it on out!

stevedebi · January 2016

Michaell said:

stevedebi said:

Michaell said:
New plan for the kids transportation. Turns out he can't afford the payment on a new car, even One as heavily discounted as what I can get.

So I found a 2002 Honda Civic ex coupe with 70,000 miles on it advertised at $4995

Thoughts?
My wife had a 2002 Civix EX, the four door. Now belongs to my daughter, who is away at school out of state and isn't using it, so I drive it most weekends. Good car, we have 135K on ours. It is very "zippy" and fun to drive. We get about 33 on the road and maybe 28 in town.

Have the timing belt checked, although the interval is 96K or so, it may be getting old. It is a belt, not a chain, IIRC.

We have put about 1.5K bucks into ours in the last couple of years. Stuff just wearing out. Let's see (not inclusive)

- Just had most of the boots/joints and things like that replaced, all suspension items. The car was "creaking" up front a lot, but the mechanic noticed it before I mentioned it
- Had to replace the engine mounts last year, two were actually broken
- New spark plugs today
- The instrument cluster went out, put a used one in there
- Had to have both electric windows repaired. Right one was a motor replacement
- Stock radio had to be replaced
- The headliner is coming loose in the left rear, but I've not yet had that one done.
Thanks for the feedback.

He's looking for a 4-door this time around, so the Civic coupe is out. He does want Japanese, I suspect for the reliability.

Not a lot in that price range that isn't already miled up.

@xwesx - you made some good points in your post the other day. Sorry for not responding to it sooner.

However .. I don't know all the numbers behind the care and feeding of the Mustang. His odometer broke a few years back, so we're at TMU. Probably close to 200K. I know his mom and my folks have helped him out on the larger repairs - there have been several that have been close to or over $1K. I think the car is just wearing out.

He pays his own insurance (he's on his mom's policy), and my folks help him out with gas costs since his commute to work can take him up to 20-25 miles one way.

Not sure what's going to happen when I'm there next week. I'll continue to look on-line and see if I can find something that is budget-friendly, reliable and easy to maintain.

A unicorn in SoCal, unfortunately.

I'd love to use my GM points and the awesome deals to get him into a Cruze lease for < $100/mo, but that's not really a long term solution.

I don't know, that Cruze might come off lease at a decent price for purchase. Not the cheapest way to get into a buy, but it works.

Lease it now and buy it at the end.

qbrozen · January 2016

Mr_Shiftright said:
So I tracked down one of the Bay Area's leading Porsche engine builders and racing specialists yesterday---the guy has creds, and his own engine building room and dynamometer room, where he tests and breaks-in engines after building them.

We talked about the life expectancy of a Porsche 996 engine at 150K, and basically his reply was pretty blunt:

He said: "Lets face it. On the 996, Porsche purposely built a 100,000 mile engine"

Translation--any 996 engine over 100K is on borrowed time, and with rebuilds costing $18,000 and up, the entire car is on borrowed time.

His recommendation? Buy a 2001-2005 Turbo, because it doesn't use the same block. That however, is a $35,000 proposition.

Well that's good to know. Although I would contend that they built a 30k-mile engine taking the IMS bearing into account.

But I would have thought fixing that got you a pretty good car. Guess not. Glad I never talked myself into one (although came close).
Was thinking of Porsche again this morning. I think I may just wait and see if used Macans ever become reasonable.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2016

Fixing the IMS does help but it doesn't fix the overall durability issues of the engine---we also have rear main seal issues to worry about, and leaking head gaskets, and, as miles build up, transaxle wear.

Point is, you have to buy a 996 at a whoppin' good price. If something major goes south, you're hosed.

qbrozen said:

Mr_Shiftright said:
So I tracked down one of the Bay Area's leading Porsche engine builders and racing specialists yesterday---the guy has creds, and his own engine building room and dynamometer room, where he tests and breaks-in engines after building them.

We talked about the life expectancy of a Porsche 996 engine at 150K, and basically his reply was pretty blunt:

He said: "Lets face it. On the 996, Porsche purposely built a 100,000 mile engine"

Translation--any 996 engine over 100K is on borrowed time, and with rebuilds costing $18,000 and up, the entire car is on borrowed time.

His recommendation? Buy a 2001-2005 Turbo, because it doesn't use the same block. That however, is a $35,000 proposition.
Well that's good to know. Although I would contend that they built a 30k-mile engine taking the IMS bearing into account.
But I would have thought fixing that got you a pretty good car. Guess not. Glad I never talked myself into one (although came close).
Was thinking of Porsche again this morning. I think I may just wait and see if used Macans ever become reasonable.

stickguy · January 2016

Offer them 6k, take it or leave it.

nyccarguy · January 2016

"wait and see if used Macans ever become reasonable."

That's a big "if" my friend. They can't stay scorching hot forever. I have a customer who pulled up in front of my store about 6 weeks ago with a gorgeous Macan S. 3 weeks later I see him with a different car. "What happened?"

"I took it in for the 1st service and was walking around the showroom. I saw my salesman who told me they are still sold before they get off the truck. He walked me over to the UCM and the guy offered to buy my car back for what I paid for it 10 months ago."

He sold the car back to them & called his wife to come pick him up.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2016

I'm a man who has certainly taken some risks in car buying, (after all, while working with Edmunds I've owned an Alfa Romeo and a Mini Cooper), but rolling an $18,000 pair of dice on a possible engine grenade, I dunno....

On the yellowed treasure map, I see I'm sailing into "Land of No Warranty".....

sda · January 2016

He walked me over to the UCM and the guy offered to buy my car back for what I paid for it 10 months ago."

He sold the car back to them & called his wife to come pick him up.

Wow! Talk about retaining value! I remember in the mid 90's Jeep Grand Cherokees were leased with a residual value that was lower than their market value when the lease expired. Many bought out the lease and then sold the GC for a profit. Haven't heard of that scenario recently. Your customer's experience with the Macan is the best I've ever heard of.

Michaell · January 2016

sda said:
He walked me over to the UCM and the guy offered to buy my car back for what I paid for it 10 months ago."

He sold the car back to them & called his wife to come pick him up.

Wow! Talk about retaining value! I remember in the mid 90's Jeep Grand Cherokees were leased with a residual value that was lower than their market value when the lease expired. Many bought out the lease and then sold the GC for a profit. Haven't heard of that scenario recently. Your customer's experience with the Macan is the best I've ever heard of.

What you describe with the GC still happens, just not that often. Banks and finance companies are getting really good at estimating the value of their cars at the end of a lease. If anything, the residuals are inflated to make the payment more attractive. But, you end up with cars that are worth much less than the contract residual, so most folks get into another lease.

qbrozen · January 2016

nyccarguy said:
"wait and see if used Macans ever become reasonable."

That's a big "if" my friend. They can't stay scorching hot forever. I have a customer who pulled up in front of my store about 6 weeks ago with a gorgeous Macan S. 3 weeks later I see him with a different car. "What happened?"

"I took it in for the 1st service and was walking around the showroom. I saw my salesman who told me they are still sold before they get off the truck. He walked me over to the UCM and the guy offered to buy my car back for what I paid for it 10 months ago."

He sold the car back to them & called his wife to come pick him up.

That's ridiculous. So then they are turning around and charging someone more-than-new price for a used one. I don't get it. Oh well.

At some point, the next new thing will come around and/or Porsche will catch up to demand and they will depreciate. Maybe not the way the first Cayennes did, but we'll see. Taking depreciation into account, maybe I should have bought the Macan instead of the CTS after all.

Sandman6472 · January 2016

Drive a lot of Jeeps at work, Cherokee's and Compass's and I like the Cherokee much better. For 2016, the Compass added a ratcheter to move the seat up and down, at least the '16 one I drove yesterday. The speedo/tach is just too damn small and hard to read but they did improve the seating materials a bit with a nicer cloth/vinyl combo.
Love the Cherokee as it's fun to drive, comfortable and the dash is easy to read with big enough fonts to read easily. Overall, just don't like the auto tranny's Jeep and Chrysler/Dodge use in most of their vehicles. The Caravan/Town & Country engines seem to move the vehicle well enough even loaded down with passengers but not crazy with the Journey and their set up. Forget the 200 also, garbage 9 speed which stinks but love the 300's. Not sure if I'd ever purchase one of their products, lease...maybe.

The Sandman

laurasdada · January 2016

"At some point, the next new thing will come around"= Jaguar F-Pace!

Sandman6472 · January 2016

About Jeeps, they really did an outstanding job with the new Renegade and think they will sell a lot of them. Drives well, very comfortable and a nice dash layout...only bad thing is the mpg's could be a bit better. A super fun vehicle and one I wouldn't mind owning myself if wer in the market right now. It's just pure fun!!

The Sandman

breld · January 2016

sda said:
He walked me over to the UCM and the guy offered to buy my car back for what I paid for it 10 months ago."

He sold the car back to them & called his wife to come pick him up.

Wow! Talk about retaining value! I remember in the mid 90's Jeep Grand Cherokees were leased with a residual value that was lower than their market value when the lease expired. Many bought out the lease and then sold the GC for a profit. Haven't heard of that scenario recently. Your customer's experience with the Macan is the best I've ever heard of.

Well, "profit" isn't exactly right - more like getting your money back. The lessor did have to pay down to that lower residual in the first place.

sda · January 2016

breld said:

sda said:
He walked me over to the UCM and the guy offered to buy my car back for what I paid for it 10 months ago."

He sold the car back to them & called his wife to come pick him up.
Wow! Talk about retaining value! I remember in the mid 90's Jeep Grand Cherokees were leased with a residual value that was lower than their market value when the lease expired. Many bought out the lease and then sold the GC for a profit. Haven't heard of that scenario recently. Your customer's experience with the Macan is the best I've ever heard of.

Well, "profit" isn't exactly right - more like getting your money back. The lessor did have to pay down to that lower residual in the first place.

You are exactly right, thanks for the clarification.

sda · January 2016

I experienced that back in 96 when I did a 2 year lease on a Mazda Millenia. At lease end I wanted to buy it, but the residual value was more than $3K over market value. As they were offering deep discounts on the 98 Millenias, I went ahead and bought (did not lease) an almost identical, except color, new 98.

What you describe with the GC still happens, just not that often. Banks and finance companies are getting really good at estimating the value of their cars at the end of a lease. If anything, the residuals are inflated to make the payment more attractive. But, you end up with cars that are worth much less than the contract residual, so most folks get into another lease.

tifighter · January 2016

I leased my 08 Pilot and at the time, gas prices were at record highs and it was the last year of the 1st gen. As a result, the lease deals were super aggressive with low (for a Honda) residuals. Three years later, it was booking a respectable amount more than the that residual. Got a good number for it and traded it for the then slow-selling RDX that was selling CPO for less than I was finding same year CRVs going for. That was a good run.

vegan_ninja · January 2016

Am I the outsider in this group! In the past 20 years I have 4 cars

1987 Nissan Pulsar
2000 Nissan Maxima GXE
2006 Toyota Sienna CE
2016 Toyota Corolla LE Premium

Mr_Shiftright · January 2016

Well hang around a while. We might be able to loosen you up a bit!

stever · January 2016

@vegan_ninja, if the spread is between '96 and '2016, I'm right in there with you:

'89 Voyager
'99 Quest
'97 Subaru
'09 Grand Caravan

Throw in our '82 Tercel and my wife and I've have had 5 cars between the two of us in the last 34 years.

I'm only here because it's my job, LOL. @breld has had that many cars in one year, or more!

Mr_Shiftright · January 2016

I will uphold the Hosts' honor by my participation, even though my real car buying Glory Days are somewhat in the dim past. But I'll rest on my laurels if nobody minds. Who knows? I might make a comeback.

nyccarguy · January 2016

vegan_ninja said:
Am I the outsider in this group! In the past 20 years I have 4 cars

1987 Nissan Pulsar
2000 Nissan Maxima GXE
2006 Toyota Sienna CE
2016 Toyota Corolla LE Premium

2016 Corolla LE Premium? Those hold their value quite well. Can we interest you in a test drive of a ______? Perhaps lunch with @breld & his wife?

stevedebi · January 2016

OK, since folks are listing. Since 1976 (won't add up, some cars were owned at the same time):

AMC Gremlin, 3 years
Ford Fairmont, 13 years
Euro Spec VW Type 2, 2 years
Euro Spec Ford Escort, 1 year
Ford Tempo (1 year)
Ford Taurus (1 year)
Ford Taurus (2 years)
Hyundai Excel (1 year)
Ford Ranger (1 year)
VW Fox (1 year)
Toyota Corolla (1 year)
Toyota Camry (1 year)
Toyota Camry (1 year)
Toyota Camry (5 years - Wife's)
Ford F-150 (1 year)
Toyota Sienna (2 years)
Honda Odyssey (1 year)
Honda Odyssey (1 year)
Honda Civic (2002 Still own it, Wife, now my daughter's)
Honda CR-V (3 years)
Ford Freestyle (2 years)
Ford Escape Hybrid (6 years)
Ford C-Max Energi (2014 current wheels)
VW Passat TDI (2014 still own it, Wife's)

Slowed down a bit in later years, the kids are due for college and we had to pay for private school to keep them out of LAUSD.

So, only 25 cars in 40 years. Not at all impressive compared to the champs in this forum!

Mr_Shiftright · January 2016

rookie!

stevedebi · January 2016

Mr_Shiftright said:
rookie!

Yup, and not likely to change unless my finances get better!

Mr_Shiftright · January 2016

Oh, that.

Michaell · January 2016

I've had 26 cars since I started driving in 1979 .. and that number includes the cars driven by the two wives I've had, and 16 of them have been in the 18 years I've been with my current wife.

stickguy · January 2016

I forget the number. Must be at least 40 with the kids. I think I was up to 8 right after I graduated college. Someday I will make a spreadsheet!

nyccarguy · January 2016

I think I'm only at 11 cars since I got my license in 1992

'92 Beretta GT - '98 Explorer Sport - '00 Saab 9-3 -
'01 Prelude Type SH - '90 BMW 325i - '11 328xi - '15 Legacy 2.5i

My wife bought her 1st new car while we were dating, so I'll count that

'00 Mazda Protege ES - '07 X3 3.0si - '10 TSX - '11 Pilot

abacomike · January 2016

stickguy said:

I forget the number. Must be at least 40 with the kids. I think I was up to 8 right after I graduated college. Someday I will make a spreadsheet!

I keep a running list. Since I was 18, I have had 69 cars (including 7 I bought for my wife). Pathetic - how can anyone truly enjoy a car if you trade them every 6-9 months. I am certainly NOT PROUD of my new car buying statistics. Only an insane individual could/would own that many cars. Now where did I put that psychiatrist's business card?

breld · January 2016

I checked my ongoing schedule of cars purchased - I'm at 38 cars. But the interesting thing is only 10 of those came before I met my current wife in 2009 - the rest have been purchased since then.

The longest ownership? 5 years with a 1993 Prelude Si.

Shortest? Not proud of it, but 2 months with that used Audi TT. I can blame that one on my wife.

tifighter · January 2016

17 in 20 years. Sorta underwhelming in this group...

Can I count motorcycles?

Mr_Shiftright · January 2016

yes, motorcycles are okay, but not riding lawnmowers. I'd say anything with a license plate.

tjc78 · January 2016

14 in 20 years... I'm a slacker

rayainsw · January 2016

I am 'only' on #26.
Mid-pack, for this group?
- Ray
Only in this group is 'only' an appropriate adjective in that sentence ......

ab348 · January 2016

If I go from the time I got my license and include the family cars that I didn't own myself but were "assigned" to me for my use, I get this list:

1973 Volvo 144
1974 Maverick
1979 Impala
1977 LeMans (first 2-door, first car in my own name)
1985 MR2
1990 GTI
1964 Skylark convertible
1968 Cutlass 2-door
1978 Delta 88
1979 Buick Park Avenue
2002 Olds Intrigue
2009 Buick Lacrosse
2011 Buick Regal Turbo
2014 Cadillac ATS

Kinda looks like I missed most of the '80s and '90s.

stever · January 2016

I'm impressed by the Gremlin and the Fox, @stevedebi.

@ab348's Volvo and Cutlass make me shiver a bit (had almost as many strandings in the late 60s in a Cutlass Supreme as the mid 70s Volvos in the family).

stickguy · January 2016

I had a gremlin. And a hornet. Quite the masochist.

suydam · January 2016

Not in your leagues. Here's my list:

'66 Dodge Dart (college and grad school)
'79 Ford Fiesta *
'72? Mercury Capri
'86 Plymouth Voyager*
'88 Mazda 323*
'92 Toyota Previa*
'95 Honda Civic
'99 Subaru Forester
'04 Mazda 6 wagon*
'01 Nissan Maxima*
'04 Pontiac Vibe
'13 Honda Accord*
'14 Buick Encore*
'99 Toyota Camry (for a kid)
'98 Buick LeSabre (ditto)
'90 Mazda 626 hatch (ditto)

* bought new

stever · January 2016

Wow @suydam, early adopter on the Voyager, and I'm envious of your Previa. And liked the Vibes we tested.

Yeah, yeah, the Encore is kind of nice too.

Fiesta, Forester - I could easily adopt your list.

iluvmysephia1 · January 2016

About Jeeps, they really did an outstanding job with the new Renegade and think they will sell a lot of them. Drives well, very comfortable and a nice dash layout...only bad thing is the mpg's could be a bit better. A super fun vehicle and one I wouldn't mind owning myself if wer in the market right now. It's just pure fun!!

sandman - about the only Jeep I've ever been interested is the new Jeep Renegade. I legitimately like this rig - saw one in Dodge yesterday afternoon and enjoyed it's body design lines. Probably, like you mentioned, it's mpg is a bit lacking.

I like it enough to add it to my "like-it-a-lot-and-wouldn't-mind-buying-it" list! What scares my wife is occasionally I head out with the wind and go get myself one of those rigs on my list.

kyfdx · January 2016

In 40 years, since I bought my first car, I have only had 12 cars that were my daily driver or extra car, just for me. Seems like it should be more than that.

But, my 22 year old is on car #3 (I paid for all of those), and my wife is on car #10, just since we got married in 1993.

So, that's 25 total in 40 years. I found it was a lot easier to justify a big payment to my wife, if the car was "hers".

breld · January 2016

I find this oddly intriguing.

All4 Cooper Clubman

ab348 · January 2016

stever said:

@ab348's Volvo and Cutlass make me shiver a bit (had almost as many strandings in the late 60s in a Cutlass Supreme as the mid 70s Volvos in the family).

The Volvo was an awful car. Dad bought it new but he had a '68 that he loved and the original plan to give that to me and him take the '73 was reversed pretty quickly, so I got a brand new car to drive to university and shuttle mom around for shopping (she didn't drive). That thing wouldn't idle unless you kept the manual choke on slightly, and had lots of little niggly problems. It didn't like wet weather either and eventually needed some mechanical kludges to make it run - I seem to recall a shop ditching the voltage regulator for one from a Chrysler in fact. It seemed to suffer from that era's transitioning from mechanical/electromechanical designs to electronics. I remember it still had the old SU carburetor, but it never worked as well as Dad's '68 with similar. Emissions control problems I guess.

The Cutlass has been virtually bulletproof for the 23 years I've had it. Just a great car.

au1994 · January 2016

I'm at 17 since 1987. Longest was a 5 year run in a Beretta and the shortest was a 5 month stint with a GMC Canyon.

Michaell · January 2016

breld said:
I find this oddly intriguing.

All4 Cooper Clubman

Was out with the family last weekend and saw one of these on the road (FWD, of course).

Nobody liked it compared to the daughter's current Countryman. "Too squished" was the sentiment.

Guess she'll be keeping her current car for a good long time.

cdnpinhead · January 2016

Gotta love that churn.

I've driven a grand total of eight vehicles (including a Kenworth truck for over 200K miles in a little over two years) well over a million miles since I traded in my last motorcycle in the summer of 1969.

The amount of money the dealers are clearing,in the aggregate, is an interesting concept. Of course, they could all be running charities. Perhaps not.

Different strokes. . .

breld · January 2016

I suppose the next-gen Countryman will only grow in size since they have this Clubman now, particularly with the availability of AWD.

They certainly aren't cheap - Schomp has a couple new Clubmans available on their website, one around $35k and another at $40k!

Michaell · January 2016

breld said:
I suppose the next-gen Countryman will only grow in size since they have this Clubman now, particularly with the availability of AWD.

They certainly aren't cheap - Schomp has a couple new Clubmans available on their website, one around $35k and another at $40k!

That's in the ballpark of what my daughter paid for her Countryman 2 years ago; though I've seen a couple of JCW Countrymans in the $45K range!

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