Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Is Tesla A Game Changer?

1…1516182021…28

Comments

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It looks like there are some batteries that provide a lot more power to weight than the Li-ion used in so many things including the Tesla.

    There is another type of battery that does not appear in the table above, since it is limited in the relative amount of current it can deliver. However, it has even higher energy storage per kilogram, and its temperature range is extreme, from -55 to +150°C. That type is Lithium Thionyl Chloride. It is used in extremely hazardous or critical applications such as space flight and deep sea diving.

    The specifications for Lithium Thionyl Chloride are $1.16 per watt-hour, 700 watts/kg, 2,000,000 Joules/kg, and 1100 watt-hours per liter. For more information of Lithium Thionyl Chloride please contact Tadiran Batteries.

    http://www.allaboutbatteries.com/Battery-Energy.html

    Li/SOCl2-- Lithium thionyl chloride 3.6 V cells have the highest energy density and voltage of all commercial lithium types, with a service life of up to 15 to 25 years. These cells are ideal for applications requiring very low continuous-current and/or moderate pulse-currents. Extremely long service life and low self-discharge make them ideal for life-saving devices such as automatic external defibrillators that must be ready for use at all times without risk of battery failure.

    http://www.tadiranbat.com/index.php/compare-lithium-technologies
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,140
    Asteroid mining, LOL, the cult would probably donate 2K apiece for that.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    Elon Musk = Lithium lobby = War in Afghanistan.

    Pollute someone else's backyard not Kalifornia
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,140
    It's funny how someone the drones would claim is anti-establishment has some pretty firm links to the establishment. Kind of like the old hippies who loudly protested the establishment 45-50 years ago, and are today the establishment, and little has changed.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It's just an electric car. They've been around for well over 100 years!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "Tesla has promised a lot but has also delivered most of it" and said there was now a lot of excitement in the industry about the "overall appearance and approach Tesla is taking."

    German automakers who once laughed off Elon Musk are now starting to worry (LA Times)

    The people really starting to worry are the stockholders. And that's not referring to Tesla's stockholders.

    "The executives at Daimler got an earful from shareholders at the company's annual general meeting this month in Berlin."
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The real question, can Tesla compete with China???

    At an event in Beijing this week, Chinese technology company LeEco showed off a slew of devices including smart TVs, a trio of smartphones sporting controversial new headphone inputs, and a VR headset to name a few. But the company's 'one more thing' moment was the unveiling of its LeSEE self-driving electric supercar.

    http://gadgets.ndtv.com/others/features/leeco-wants-to-give-away-its-tesla-killer-for-free-but-questions-remain-829263

    This is the statement that blew me away, showing how we are becoming 3rd world. Our connectivity is crap in CA and most of the USA.

    Also, with Internet connectivity being a massive part of the LeSEE, can it function without it? What provisions are present in the event of the lack of bandwidth? It probably is less of a problem in China where connectivity is a given almost everywhere, but it does pose an number of concerns for other nations like India where connectivity is notoriously poor and the notion of paying for content isn't there yet. LeEco's plans are one thing, but execution is what counts.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,140
    By the time the 3 hits the streets, the mainstream marques will have plenty of time to launch an competitive model. Don't think they aren't prototyping them right now.

    Stock valuations and stockholder sentiment are funny - these are the same people who will blindly put down money on a car that doesn't exist.

    That LeEco piece is paid fluff, like the propaganda constantly released by the kleptocratic government. The term "Tesla killer" being used for a car that exists both as a cgi render and as a hollow plastic Model S copy styling exercise is funny. Connectivity almost anywhere in China, sure. Regarding American connectivity, I only know that I have family in a relatively rural area that had only 2G data up until a year or two ago, and now has LTE even in their one horse town - things are changing. I suppose if one is a doomer and lives up in the hills, they might still be in the dark.

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Fintail: Regarding American connectivity, I only know that I have family in a relatively rural area that had only 2G data up until a year or two ago, and now has LTE even in their one horse town - things are changing. I suppose if one is a doomer and lives up in the hills, they might still be in the dark.

    There is Cellular Internet and WiFi coverage. Cellular is a total ripoff price wise. Our recent jaunt to AZ made it clear how poor cell service is off the Interstate corridor or within cities. I avoid using my Smartphone for Internet when away from a Wifi source.

    I bought a new NightHawk Wireless router that made a lot of difference in our home system. I was real proud of my 65 Mbps SpeedTest until my nephew in Albuquerque posted 900+ Mbps. He has Fiber to the door. We both pay the same price.

    As for your take on the LeSee, I would not underestimate the Chinese ability to copy and improve. The Chinese are beating US at our own game of Capitalism. They hired one of Tesla's top engineers in 2012.

    http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100860_more-faraday-info-chinese-billionaire-backer-ex-tesla-staff-for-electric-car-startup

    http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1103569_faraday-futures-backer-shows-another-electric-luxury-sedan
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    stever said:

    "Tesla has promised a lot but has also delivered most of it" and said there was now a lot of excitement in the industry about the "overall appearance and approach Tesla is taking."

    German automakers who once laughed off Elon Musk are now starting to worry (LA Times)

    The people really starting to worry are the stockholders. And that's not referring to Tesla's stockholders.

    "The executives at Daimler got an earful from shareholders at the company's annual general meeting this month in Berlin."

    Tesla is doomed unless it brings cars to market priced same as gasoline car and in the millions not few hundreds.
    Then we will have lines at the charging stations running three blocks long.
    Musk and his lithium lobby is selling a pipe dream at the expense of the tax payers.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,140
    edited April 2016
    Up here, I have service in any relatively populated area, and 4G LTE speeds in most. I've seen it grow by leaps and bounds in the past couple years - I even have service in the central corridors and garage of my building now, where one would drop calls in the past. At least in western WA and along highways in this state, I can easily say connectivity is now on par with my experiences in Europe, which for a long time was among the most wired locations.

    That system some strangely revere is not capitalism, that's crony capitalism and kleptocracy. Who do you think is buying up all that west coast property, and why? Look where the money comes from, it all seems to trace back to public sector officials and questionable connections. You don't want to live in that business climate, it's not what you know, it's who you know and to whom you were born. Maybe like the supposed capitalism of 1890. For as unsustainable as the model here can be, that one is much riskier.

    Low quality cgi renders do not a real car or concept car make. It'll take more than buying some execs. So far, vaporware. I need to see it to believe it, just like with the 3. The comments on the articles are pretty valuable, too.

    gagrice said:


    There is Cellular Internet and WiFi coverage. Cellular is a total ripoff price wise. Our recent jaunt to AZ made it clear how poor cell service is off the Interstate corridor or within cities. I avoid using my Smartphone for Internet when away from a Wifi source.

    I bought a new NightHawk Wireless router that made a lot of difference in our home system. I was real proud of my 65 Mbps SpeedTest until my nephew in Albuquerque posted 900+ Mbps. He has Fiber to the door. We both pay the same price.

    As for your take on the LeSee, I would not underestimate the Chinese ability to copy and improve. The Chinese are beating US at our own game of Capitalism. They hired one of Tesla's top engineers in 2012.

    http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100860_more-faraday-info-chinese-billionaire-backer-ex-tesla-staff-for-electric-car-startup

    http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1103569_faraday-futures-backer-shows-another-electric-luxury-sedan

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Carboy21:
    Tesla is doomed unless it brings cars to market priced same as gasoline car and in the millions not few hundreds.
    Then we will have lines at the charging stations running three blocks long.
    Musk and his lithium lobby is selling a pipe dream at the expense of the tax payers.

    I totally agree. His claims for a green solution, will make VW's claims seem honest. We have already debunked his totally recycled Lithium battery claim. It can only be done with a government subsidy. Costs far more to recycle than to mine.

    Free electricity at Super Chargers is a beauty for sure. And who is going to pay for the electricity? Even the ones with solar are only good when the sun shines. Don't count on using the ONE super charger in San Diego. It is in the Qualcomm HQ parking garage. 5+ million people in the county and one Super Charger. I guess it is not a good choice in San Diego.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,140
    They'll need a bank of charging stations about every mile or so, if the 3 sells as predicted. I find it amusing that the adoring media has been lax to point out this issue.
    carboy21 said:


    Tesla is doomed unless it brings cars to market priced same as gasoline car and in the millions not few hundreds.
    Then we will have lines at the charging stations running three blocks long.
    Musk and his lithium lobby is selling a pipe dream at the expense of the tax payers.

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited April 2016
    http://www.autonews.com/article/20160427/COPY01/304279931/germany-to-introduce-4500-subsidy-for-buying-an-ev

    This raises questions, including will German automakers phase out diesel cars (not trucks and buses)? In any event, this subsidy into electrification by the German government isn't shocking, but I didn't expect it.

    What will FCA do?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Given how much Germany has invested already in all forms of 'green' energy, I'm not surprised. They are also the 5th richest country in the world right now.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,140
    "Luxury cars with a price tag of more than 60,000 euros will not benefit from the scheme"

    Sounds closer to what should have existed here. And yeah, I bet the German power grid is better equipped to handle an influx of new demand better than that here.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    They are heavily invested in solar and wind power.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    How well will the US and German compete with the copy cats that will soon be coming out of China?? $15k EV Mini Cooper look alike?

    One of the more infamous examples is the Landwind X7 from Jiangling Motors Co. — a deadringer for the Range Rover Evoque. At $21,000 it retails for around one-third of the real deal's price.

    http://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/china-s-copycat-cars-compete-western-giants-n562256


  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Just goes to show that the "real deals" are overpriced. :p
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited April 2016
    stever said:

    Just goes to show that the "real deals" are overpriced. :p

    Let's remember that real research and development went into the "real deals." That costs more than copying and reverse engineering. Also, who knows how much the Chinese government is subsidizing their copy cat vehicles?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,140
    edited April 2016
    You can crash in a copycat, I will take the real deal, thanks.

    And that doesn't even get into how the copies support a dangerous and sketchy regime.

    Don't let the fakes into the western world.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'll believe this when I see them performing successfully on the road for a couple years.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,707
    And those copies are in appearance only. Underneath can be some pretty cheap stuff.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    I wonder how Tesla's reliability compares with the BMW's and Nissan's EVs?...

    http://www.autonews.com/article/20160427/OEM05/160429847/high-warranty-costs-reflect-teslas-struggle-with-quality
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    hpmctorque said:

    stever said:

    Just goes to show that the "real deals" are overpriced. :p

    Let's remember that real research and development went into the "real deals." That costs more than copying and reverse engineering. Also, who knows how much the Chinese government is subsidizing their copy cat vehicles?
    We know the US government is subsidizing numerous vehicles. The Tesla and Volt have cost the tax payers BILLIONS of dollars. Difference in China the emerging Middle class is the beneficiaries of the subsidies. In the US it is the wealthy that get the benefit. Last news China has a YUUUGE middle class. And they are buying cars at a fast pace.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    hpmctorque said:

    I wonder how Tesla's reliability compares with the BMW's and Nissan's EVs?...

    http://www.autonews.com/article/20160427/OEM05/160429847/high-warranty-costs-reflect-teslas-struggle-with-quality

    Norway is a large market for Tesla. They are having lots of issues with warranty. four to five month wait for parts. Many disgruntled owners.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    gagrice said:

    hpmctorque said:

    stever said:

    Just goes to show that the "real deals" are overpriced. :p

    Let's remember that real research and development went into the "real deals." That costs more than copying and reverse engineering. Also, who knows how much the Chinese government is subsidizing their copy cat vehicles?
    We know the US government is subsidizing numerous vehicles. The Tesla and Volt have cost the tax payers BILLIONS of dollars. Difference in China the emerging Middle class is the beneficiaries of the subsidies. In the US it is the wealthy that get the benefit. Last news China has a YUUUGE middle class. And they are buying cars at a fast pace.
    That middle class is middle by Chinese standards of course, and it's concentrted in a few mega cities, mainly near the coasts. The number of poor and very poor is still much YUUUGER than the middle class.

    While industrialization has improved the lives of a large percentage of Chinese, it's also a fact that this progress has created enormous environmental and other problems. Maybe China will address these issues in time, as we have done with some of ours. However, I wouldn't even think of trading our problems with China's.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited April 2016
    Chinese broke the back of the solar panels market by flooding it with cheap solar panels.
    Same thing happened with the windmills.
    You can bet your last dime that they will shut out the Germans and Tesla with Chinese built cheaper electric cars.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I would not want to be in China for sure. What I do see is they do a better job of giving the poor something to do. Unlike the US where we warehouse them in the projects until election time. All this talk of higher MW in the US when we have millions of non working adults that are not worth MW to an employer.

    China will soon pass US in EV manufacturing. I will be surprised of Musk pulls off his battery factory without massive subsidies. Every thing we have given the Chinese to build they have done quite well. I cannot imagine an iPhone factory in the USA. Putting 50,000 Americans in one factory to work 6 days a week 10 hours a day, is beyond my comprehension.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    China has an advantage, being a totalitarian government. Economic decisions can be made swiftly, changes in monetary or production policies can be decided at the stroke of a pen, and the threat of imprisonment or disgrace is a great motivator to exceed your company's business goals.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    carboy21 said:

    Chinese broke the back of the solar panels market by flooding it with cheap solar panels.
    Same thing happened with the windmills.
    You can bet your last dime that they will shut out the Germans and Tesla with Chinese built cheaper electric cars.

    Many predicted that Acura, Lexus and Infiniti were going to shut out the Germans, based on their quality and value proposition. It didn't happen. The Germans proved themselves to be remarkably resourceful, so I wouldn't bet my last dime that the Chinese will shut Audi, BMW and Mercedes down.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Nah, they'll just partner up with the Germans at some point.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    Nah, they'll just partner up with the Germans at some point.

    I think they have partnered with just about all the auto makers. If not for China GM would be bankrupt again. Makes you wonder whose government is the smartest???
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    https://home.autonews.com/clickshare/authenticateUserSubscription.do?CSProduct=autonews-premium&CSAuthReq=1:17360825418908:AID:798622977499773998497A8D02A48174&AID=/20160428/GLOBAL03/160429826&title=China's GAC looks to Fiat Chrysler to help enter U.S. &CSTargetURL=http://www.autonews.com/article/20160428/GLOBAL03/160429826/chinas-gac-looks-to-fiat-chrysler-to-help-enter-u-s
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I think Sergio is looking for any foothold to keep from crashing and burning.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,140
    Also compare it to the overall population. A large number is nice, but only to marketers - the percentage of the population counts for a lot more, and it isn't exactly USA 1965.

    And yes, they will partner, likely eventually for distribution too. It's a fun partnership - one gets short term sales with no vision of sustainability, the other gets all the IP they want.

    It's easy to be a "smart" government when you are an unregulated virtual dictatorship. That lack of regulation is very attractive to some on this side of the pond, who might not understand the consequences.
    hpmctorque said:


    That middle class is middle by Chinese standards of course, and it's concentrted in a few mega cities, mainly near the coasts. The number of poor and very poor is still much YUUUGER than the middle class.

    While industrialization has improved the lives of a large percentage of Chinese, it's also a fact that this progress has created enormous environmental and other problems. Maybe China will address these issues in time, as we have done with some of ours. However, I wouldn't even think of trading our problems with China's.

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Sergio does seem pretty desperate to do a merger, doesn't he. I give him credit for being imaginative and proactive. Outsourcing the Chrysler 200 and the Dodge Dart makes sense because the compact and midsize field is just too crowded with cars that are similar. If nothing else it would buy Fiat-Chrysler time, if he can strike a deal. If he can't maybe he could hire Trump to do it (hah!).
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,707
    "Outsourcing the Chrysler 200 and the Dodge Dart makes sense because the compact and midsize field is just too crowded with cars that are similar much better."

    There, I fixed it.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited April 2016
    hpmctorque said:

    carboy21 said:

    Chinese broke the back of the solar panels market by flooding it with cheap solar panels.
    Same thing happened with the windmills.
    You can bet your last dime that they will shut out the Germans and Tesla with Chinese built cheaper electric cars.

    Many predicted that Acura, Lexus and Infiniti were going to shut out the Germans, based on their quality and value proposition. It didn't happen. The Germans proved themselves to be remarkably resourceful, so I wouldn't bet my last dime that the Chinese will shut Audi, BMW and Mercedes down.
    If you put the Audi / Mercedes Benz / BMW badge on the Acura / Lexus / Infinity cars., they will turn out to be better cars then the original Germans. B)
    People buy the brand BADGE for their ego AND SHOWING OFF to their peers :)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,140
    And the premium Japanese makes are as much about the badge as the others. Most users would be just as well off in the Honda/Toyota/Nissan base.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    texases said:

    "Outsourcing the Chrysler 200 and the Dodge Dart makes sense because the compact and midsize field is just too crowded with cars that are similar much better."

    There, I fixed it.

    You hit THAT nail on the head!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "BMW's i3 electric car will have a little more juice for 2017, gaining a bigger battery to boost its electric range from 80 to 114 miles. It's all thanks to a 50 percent increase in battery capacity. Thanks to denser lithium ion batteries, the i3 goes from 22 kWh to 33 kWh without physically increasing the size of the battery pack."

    BMW's i3 electric car is getting a bigger battery, 114-mile range (theverge.com)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'm slowly coming round to the realization that electric cars are not the wave of the future. I'd bet on a different horse.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,707
    There's a niche, but how big? And I have yet to understand where all the hydrogen that Toyota is planning on will come from.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited May 2016
    From Wiki: " Currently, the majority of hydrogen (∼95%) is produced from fossil fuels by steam reforming or partial oxidation of methane and coal gasification with only a small quantity by other routes such as biomass gasification or electrolysis of water".

    As I understand it, the best source is natural gas. We got plenty of that.

    And ironically, natural gas is a major source of electricity for all those Teslas.

    So, I guess when someone says: "electric cars and hydrogen cars will lessen our dependence on fossil fuels", you are allowed to quietly chuckle.

  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    texases said:

    There's a niche, but how big? And I have yet to understand where all the hydrogen that Toyota is planning on will come from.

    I have a prototype hydrogen generator developed in my garage. It will split water into hydrogen and carbon dioxide.
    It is a very top secret project as I have received death threats from the fossil fuel lobby, the lithium lobby, the solar lobby and the windmill lobby.
    This cheap hydrogen from water has the potential to change the whole world as we know it.

    :p
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    From Wiki: " Currently, the majority of hydrogen (∼95%) is produced from fossil fuels by steam reforming or partial oxidation of methane and coal gasification with only a small quantity by other routes such as biomass gasification or electrolysis of water".

    As I understand it, the best source is natural gas. We got plenty of that.

    And ironically, natural gas is a major source of electricity for all those Teslas.

    So, I guess when someone says: "electric cars and hydrogen cars will lessen our dependence on fossil fuels", you are allowed to quietly chuckle.

    My understanding is most of the hydrogen is used as fertilizer, Anhydrous Ammonia. All from NG.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,707
    Anyone think Tesla will hit 500,000 two years early?
    http://jalopnik.com/tesla-is-now-gunning-to-produce-half-a-million-cars-ann-1774805496
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited May 2016
    Numbers are a bit hard for me to find but Wikicars said that NUMMI could make 420,000 vehicles a year. No idea if that was during the peak years or not.

    Guess my question is do they even have the capacity assuming the money holds out?

    Maybe Elon really will buy VW's factory in Chattanooga.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Musk just announced that the Model 3 will not make its production deadline.

    He's got an ambitious plan. Basically, to increase production 10X in a year and a half.

    Yeah, well.......
Sign In or Register to comment.

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles