Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

Mr_Shiftright · October 2016

I think those that are left behind just didn't see it coming---that between robots and the need for further job education, they got blindsided. I completely sympathize with their situation BTW, but one has to face facts and deal with them rationally. Many folks hate "change" and they don't want to change. But other generations have done it. Horse and buggy people went into automobiles, housewives went into industrial work, poor immigrants went to high school and college.

fintail · October 2016

A lot of things were a lot more affordable for prior generations, relative to incomes and living costs. The socio-economic gap now is close to what it was 100 years ago. This isn't progress. Job education isn't obtainable for a lot of people, without assistance. Until structured solutions are created (rather than just pointing at vaguely related topics from generations past), the demon of globalization will continue to be touted by many.

berri · October 2016

Globalization deals need to be fair. The US gives too much away too often to get a deal.

fintail · October 2016

Free trade definitely hasn't been fair trade over the past 40 years or so. There have been a lot of benefits which many like to tout, and a lot of sacrifices which many don't like to admit.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2016

There's no such thing as "free trade" or a "free market".

tlong · October 2016

fintail said:
Free trade definitely hasn't been fair trade over the past 40 years or so. There have been a lot of benefits which many like to tout, and a lot of sacrifices which many don't like to admit.

I wonder what the pros/cons would be if we had protected ourselves more, but then been uncompetitive on the global market, had to put up with the greater pollution, etc. Certainly there are pros and many cons for the US, as for other countries as well. It's easy to seen the greenery on the other side of the fence, I wonder what we'd get upset about if we actually changed things?

I know when I go to Europe I see all these things that they seem to do better - and I find my own country aggravating in many ways. But I'm sure if I lived there for a while I'd miss a bunch of things that WE get better than them.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2016

Everything is going to go to green technology and renewable energy, so any country left behind on this is going to pay through the nose for it in the future IMO.

berri · October 2016

The free traders miss an important point - our industrial base. We are outsourcing too many important items, particularly in electronics. What happens if China tells us to go pound sand one day?

As for the green stuff: If you follow the wind and sea currents in the Pacific, we are getting a nice dose of Asian pollution thanks to our outsourcing as well.

Washington can talk all it wants, but it caters to the big moneyed interests that fund their campaign and lobby chests. The media tends to hold back because a good chunk of that money finds its way to them through commercials.

fintail · October 2016

Green industry has a lot of pros, but one has to wonder if the movement is for realistic reasons, or for some people to profit and sooth their illogical guilt at the same time. I'll believe green is a reality when the best environmental criminals aren't "most favored partners" or whatever term those without real world worries use to defend their policies.

fintail · October 2016

Is being uncompetitive simply trying to reach fair trading policies, and not diving head first into oligocracy? The externalities of bad socio-economic and industrial policy are what allow idiotic populism to take control. Are we not putting up with greater pollution even if we can't see it from our living room? It all ends up somewhere.

Europe is way too much of a micromanaged nanny state, for one. Their past 30 years might have been a higher overall standard than enjoyed by many Americans, but I can't say decisions made by their current leaders will keep that alive in another 30 years. The US might not be such a bad place to be.

tlong said:

I wonder what the pros/cons would be if we had protected ourselves more, but then been uncompetitive on the global market, had to put up with the greater pollution, etc. Certainly there are pros and many cons for the US, as for other countries as well. It's easy to seen the greenery on the other side of the fence, I wonder what we'd get upset about if we actually changed things?

I know when I go to Europe I see all these things that they seem to do better - and I find my own country aggravating in many ways. But I'm sure if I lived there for a while I'd miss a bunch of things that WE get better than them.

berri · October 2016

I think our current economic model is oligopoly. These industrial consolidations spell inflation for the consumer, but rest assured the CPI data model will be manipulated to understate it in the statistics. Doesn't matter which party is in control either.

andres3 · October 2016

Both parties are tax and spend parties. One just leans and tilts slightly from the other on who pays the taxes and where the money will be spent and/or wasted.

tlong · October 2016

fintail said:
Green industry has a lot of pros, but one has to wonder if the movement is for realistic reasons, or for some people to profit and sooth their illogical guilt at the same time. I'll believe green is a reality when the best environmental criminals aren't "most favored partners" or whatever term those without real world worries use to defend their policies.

Well GM now sells cars made in China, and Volvo is Chinese owned. And some other company (I forget the name) may start selling here. So we can see the trends in the auto world.

tlong · October 2016

berri said:
I think our current economic model is oligopoly. .

Lately it seems oligopoly but trending to idiocracy.

fintail · October 2016

The trend is what? Origin doesn't matter? That if you have enough money, you can buy rules? Of course it doesn't matter how much of a criminal or abuser you are, you can still profit. The most favored "partner" (some partnership LOLOL) has free rein. And then the embezzling homeland low level officials can come here and launder their dirty gold in our real estate markets.

I wouldn't buy a Volvo or a Chinese Buick for political reasons alone.

Oligocracy. For whom the normal person votes matters little.

tlong said:

Well GM now sells cars made in China, and Volvo is Chinese owned. And some other company (I forget the name) may start selling here. So we can see the trends in the auto world.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2016

Kleptocracy most likely. Or my favorite---Kakistocracy---rule by the worst citizens.

Actually getting back more on topic, I think internationalism, or "globalism" if you will, should not be cast as a dirty word. If you look at the history of Western culture, and its incredible success, internationalism has been right at the foundation of this. Whenever the West has plunged into protectionism, or xenophobia, or isolationism, bad things have happened.

fintail · October 2016

I still think it is oligocracy. Almost every piece of legislation benefits someone way up there. The same financial and policy controllers remain no matter who wins an election when both candidates are far more similar than different.

I don't know if looting the western working class in the name of "trade" can be considered internationalism or globalism.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2016

Who says it's being looted. The statistics don't back up the claim. The country is actually in pretty good shape right now. There's a lot of hysteria out there. Minimal inflation, jobs are up, unemployment at about 5%, stock market higher than it's ever been, low interest rates, crime rates continue to fall, GDP chuggin' along okay, U.S. scientific and cultural achievements are nothing short of miraculous these last few years. Auto industry is posting some pretty impressive numbers, too.

Oh, the automaker from China that plans to come into the U.S is, of course, Geely. I think they will be selling a Volvo-platformed small SUV.

fintail · October 2016

Greatest socio-economic gap since before the depression, that's what says there's looting. This isn't the reality the lucky generation faced 45-50 years ago.

IMO buying a Chinese car today would be like buying a German car in 1939 or a Soviet car in 1953.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2016

And what does that mean in everyday life? For most people, not much. Real wages haven't increased in well over 30 years, but people seem to live pretty well regardless. The malls are full, the cruise ships, the dealer showrooms, the theaters. Comparison to the Great Depression seems to carry little weight.

These "factory jobs" aren't coming back. They're gone, Finito. Kiss 'em goodbye. Young people have to retrain for the world of 2016.

fintail · October 2016

Nice edit inclusion of vague data ideals. Inflation and unemployment rates are creatively accounted to keep spirits up. For the latter, the methodology has changed with time. For the former, such small meaningless expenses as housing, education, and healthcare are conveniently omitted. Not seeing those cultural achievements, either - the idiotic and expensive war on drugs keeps chugging along, and the justice system is as broken as ever.

People live "well" on the surface, as they spend more of their income to maintain a standard (look at modern savings and debt rates), utilize dual incomes and multiple jobs more than ever to make ends meet, and take advantage of goods made in abuse unethical/questionably legal conditions as a way to make the declining real incomes go a greater distance.

The scare points of xenophobia and protectionism are also amusing. Historical record has those coming on the scene after economic collapse, not causing it. If you want to enable populist idiocy that is based in ideals like xenophobia and dumb trade policies, let the economy suffer first. The current POTUS race shows it.

Malls are full? Outside of upscale developments and outlets, malls are a dying fad. Theaters? They were full during the depression too. Cruise ships? Economically irrelevant (and also popular during the depression). People like you and I who live on the affluent coastal areas aren't seeing the reality for much of the nation, not to mention much of what was the developed world. We all can't be the lucky ones in a few areas who are house rich, have fat funded-by-others pensions, or inheritances to make up the difference.

"Retrain" is probably more difficult (financially) now than ever. Just be sure to get into a field our beloved corporate leaders who definitely don't deserve a gallows can't offshore.

iluvmysephia1 · October 2016

Retrain" is probably more difficult (financially) now than ever. Just be sure to get into a field our beloved corporate leaders who definitely don't deserve a gallows can't offshore.

Retrain carefully.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2016

Sure, people in West Virginia aren't buying as many new cars as those in Seattle....okay...but there are always going to be inequities in income in a democratic society.

I think it's just an orgy of self-loathing, personally. Fear mongers are painting a far darker economic picture than actually exists. A poll was taken of the demographic that is complaining the most, and their average annual income?.......$72,000 a year.

When you start seeing cars on American roads like the ones in Cuba---THEN I'd accept that our economy isn't healthy.

fintail · October 2016

72K is pretty modest in most west coast urban areas. You'll definitely never own a house in a non-demilitarized zone within a reasonable distance (commuting time) to employment centers, maybe not even a condo unless you want something sketchy, old with looming assessments, or a mortgage of 5x or more income.

Get out of the posh areas here, and you'll see some interesting vehicles with charming Red Green style repairs. American and foreign cars both

thebean · October 2016

I agree with @fintail. What people are shopping in the malls are buying cheap Chinese junk that will wear out in a year or so. With the move of a lot of our quality jobs offshore, retraining is learning how to say "paper or plastic?". The peak of the great American empire is over. It's all downhill from here. Greed rules. I'm so glad I only have maybe 15 years left here on earth. It is going to be ugly.

fintail · October 2016

I am not that negative. If anything, the rest of the world is devolving more than the US. Europe is a looming disaster, China is in some ways a house of cards, and Russia is always teetering on the edge. Other so called looming powers are corrupt to the point that it will limit their ultimate power. This will still place to be in a few generations, if we make it that long. Greed rules, but we probably manage it better than most - there's just still so much room for improvement.

iluvmysephia1 · October 2016

Shifty -well, over here in Kansas and western Missouri, I can assure you that the economy is pretty much booming. In the KC Metro there are so many stores Mrs. iluv and I can't believe the buildup. Johnson County, KS, is the 3rd most wealth county in the nation. There is really that "gotta keep up with the Jones'" thing going on in the far eastern edge of Kansas, connected to Kansas City, MO.

There is not a lot of building in downtown KC, MO, but it's because everyone's out in the suburbs and in Kansas City, KS, and places like Shawnee Mission, KS, Overland Park, KS, Lenexa, KS, etc. To the east on the Missouri side you have places like Lee's Summit, Grandview, Raytown, etc., that have money built in to them. However, the mega-buildup in homes and subdivisions and nice, nice stores and theaters is on the Kansas side.

We never knew Kansas had so much money living here - most all of it is in Wichita, Topeka and the cities included in Johnson County connected to the KC Metro. So, as someone living and working over here, I can tell you fintail and Shifty, there is a big-time money-making vibe going on here. Working all of the time. I am not convinced the economy is in a shambles, not from what I see. If you're outta work in the KC Metro, you're not trying to get a job or you don't really want to work.

Now, fintail, if you want to talk about the high cost of healthcare in America, I'll talk. It is awful in this nation. Just finished watching the 2007 Michael Moore film out of Europe where he discussed the kind of healthcare France serves up to it's citizens. Whoa - housecalls are common. Cost? Nothing. I'm not sure I believe the data. They're not paying for their healthcare - or they're paying little amounts for their prescriptions and their healthcare.

Moving to Belize to retire? I have kicked the idea around a bit.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2016

You live in the richest and most powerful country on earth. There's no reason to presume any kind of decline.

The economy is healthy but not robust. Inflation/deflation are in balance. GDP grows every year. Unemployment rates are stable. BLS predicts a full recovery from the Great Recession by the year 2020.

Best of all, there's no sign of crazy exuberance in the stock market.

thebean · October 2016

Well, I hope you guys are right. I just can't see how we can prosper long-term with such a very small middle class and a lot of good industrial jobs, like auto manufacturing, moving out of the country. I wish I was as optimistic as you all are, but I see lots of storm clouds on our horizon.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2016

Huge economies always will ebb and flow. America has undergone something like 7....or 9?....serious, scary major recessions, depressions or bank panics in the last 150 years or so. Even in the Great Depression, if you had just held onto your nearly worthless investments, (assuming the companies you were invested in didn't disappear) most people would have been made whole again in about 8 years.

fintail · October 2016

Of course, it also took the most horrific war in modern history to really end the depression. Fortunately, modern warfare should be different. This might not be the same ebb and flow that the lucky generation a few prior was able to experience on the west coast as they benefited from unparalleled asset appreciation and often gifts from thrifty predecessors.

There are definitely storm clouds on the horizon related to the deindustrialization of the middle class, and the reverse style socialism the nation has engaged in (many sacrifice for the good of the few). There is going to be social strife. Eventually, there is probably going to be a guaranteed minimum income, as robot and 3D printing tech eliminate more jobs, and governments fail to adequately address the treacherous offshoring movement. However, I think other locations have even more worrisome storm clouds. Just like with politics, it might not be a game of the perfect place (choice), but the one that is less bad.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2016

Jobs are probably only shifting from one sector to another, just like when buggy-whip makers became Auto Zone.

There has always been social unrest---the 30s, the 50s, the 60s and the 70s in America were extremely violent. Veterans were shot dead in DC, college students shot dead in Ohio, millions demonstrating everywhere.

You're actually living in a rather peaceful and prosperous time compared to most chunks of American history.

fintail · October 2016

Unfortunately, new or shifted living wage new jobs aren't always keeping pace with population growth, and there's no real plan to keep pace with projected population growth. Hence the idea of a mandated basic income, although the "we built it" set (who often benefit more than anyone from inheritance or simple luck) will cry, and millions of their delusional followers will support them, at their own peril.

True progress would see a reduction in that unrest. I don't see such progress being made yet, the unrest is just shifting a little.

iluvmysephia1 · October 2016

Even in the Great Depression, if you had just held onto your nearly worthless investments, (assuming the companies you were invested in didn't disappear) most people would have been made whole again in about 8 years.

But Henry Ford had a car that they just had to have, or, a fixed-up used one that shone like a star to them. We've taken Dave Ramsey's course and think way, way differently than we used to. We're making it and saving as much as we can, but saving is never easy. Still, in 4 years, 9 months, 28 days, 3 hours and one minute I plan to retire from full-time employment. Gotta include this: That's if the Lord's willing and the creek don't rise.

berri · October 2016

Well, just got a notice from my bank that if I don't process at least one transaction each year in each account, the account will be considered dormant and subject to turn over to the state. The bank claims it is due to Congress and their new banking laws. Loot the middle class saver while Wall Street bankers loot the taxpayers! Yeah, Washington is getting tough on big banks because of the bailouts - NOT :@ How is that not outright theft by the government?

fintail · October 2016

Find a new bank

"Loot the middle class saver while Wall Street bankers loot the taxpayers!"

Has been historical record for how many decades now?

Mr_Shiftright · October 2016

berri said:
Well, just got a notice from my bank that if I don't process at least one transaction each year in each account, the account will be considered dormant and subject to turn over to the state. The bank claims it is due to Congress and their new banking laws. Loot the middle class saver while Wall Street bankers loot the taxpayers! Yeah, Washington is getting tough on big banks because of the bailouts - NOT :@ How is that not outright theft by the government?

This law has been in effect for many years and is initiated by your state, not by Washington. Your state gets the money from "unclaimed" accounts. Nothing to do with Wall St. although I do share your contempt for them. What has changed over the years is the time requirement for seizure. Used to be 15 years, now, varying by state, it's usually 3 to 5.

But whatever, it's still NOT NICE.

Regarding Ford's move of production of all small cars to Mexico---Ford has announced that no jobs will be lost. All employees formerly building those cars will be moved to other production lines.

andres3 · October 2016

Mr_Shiftright said:

berri said:
Well, just got a notice from my bank that if I don't process at least one transaction each year in each account, the account will be considered dormant and subject to turn over to the state. The bank claims it is due to Congress and their new banking laws. Loot the middle class saver while Wall Street bankers loot the taxpayers! Yeah, Washington is getting tough on big banks because of the bailouts - NOT :@ How is that not outright theft by the government?
This law has been in effect for many years and is initiated by your state, not by Washington. Your state gets the money from "unclaimed" accounts. Nothing to do with Wall St. although I do share your contempt for them. What has changed over the years is the time requirement for seizure. Used to be 15 years, now, varying by state, it's usually 3 to 5.

But whatever, it's still NOT NICE.

Regarding Ford's move of production of all small cars to Mexico---Ford has announced that no jobs will be lost. All employees formerly building those cars will be moved to other production lines.

A lot of banks including Credit Unions try to steal money by charging an "Inactivity Fee!" Long before the State claims the funds, but after say a year of no transactions. They were charging an account I had little money in this monthly fee until I had almost nothing left (never mind the paltry savings interest rate). I was able to successfully argue that their fine print was faulty however, and get them to refund all the charges going back over 6 months before I noticed. This is a big problem with going paperless, you may never see something that is happening.

Anyway, I was able to win the argument with upper management due to the fact their fine print didn't clearly define interest accumulation (which happened monthly at this Credit Union) as NOT a transaction. In my opinion, every time the bank deposited interest monthly, it was a transaction that changed the balance. In fact, you could probably argue every monthly inactivity charge was a transaction (but didn't go there). Anyway, I think they changed the definition of inactivity and "transaction" in the membership agreement shortly after they refunded my money. Nowadays, most probably spell out that a transaction is only defined as a withdrawal or deposit.

This was with a Credit Union, had it been a "BIG BANK" I might not have been successful at reasoning with them.

Bank of America got my wife and I to sign up for 2 credit cards (we like to keep separate accounts on expenditures), and we were supposed to be given $100 bonus once we spent $500 in the first 3 months. Well, we lived up to our end of the bargain, but it appeared their MO was to not pay these bonuses. When you call in to complain, they act like they don't know what $100 you are talking about. When you dig deep and really fight them, they claim the person that took my phone call and did my application failed to enter the wrong promotion code. They didn't want to do the right thing. I eventually won the argument as I appealed multiple times and threatened to go up the ladder more than a rung or two (my first appeal was unsuccessful). My wife gave up sooner and never got her $100 dollars.

berri · October 2016

Banks, real estate - I always think the closer to cash, the bigger the crooks

tlong · October 2016

fintail said:
The trend is what? Origin doesn't matter? That if you have enough money, you can buy rules? Of course it doesn't matter how much of a criminal or abuser you are, you can still profit. The most favored "partner" (some partnership LOLOL) has free rein. And then the embezzling homeland low level officials can come here and launder their dirty gold in our real estate markets.

I wouldn't buy a Volvo or a Chinese Buick for political reasons alone.

Oligocracy. For whom the normal person votes matters little.

It sure seems that most people just don't care about where their stuff comes from as long as it's cheap.

You need to only look at the current presidential candidates to see how bright the voters on both sides are in this country.

tlong · October 2016

berri said:
Banks, real estate - I always think the closer to cash, the bigger the crooks

I like that one. And undoubtedly usually accurate.

fintail · October 2016

Of course they don't care, gotta make declining real incomes stretch somehow. Another fine side effect of deceptively named current "free trade" strategy.

My greatest fear about the election is that one of them will win

tlong said:

It sure seems that most people just don't care about where their stuff comes from as long as it's cheap.

You need to only look at the current presidential candidates to see how bright the voters on both sides are in this country.

stever · October 2016

How the American Brands Perform in Car Reliability (consumerreports.org)

For purposes of this discussion, I guess it helps that the worst performing American brand is owned by an Italian company.

imidazol97 · October 2016

Chinese company moving into US. Moraine Ohio plant that used to produce S-10s and then midsize SUVs has part resurrected by Fuyao.

Several factual errors in article. This plant was built new for S-10s, not in the 1920s as article says. The unemployment is not 4.4% in the area. Closer to 10-12%. But what can be expected from newspaper writers these days. $10,000,000 in covert Ohio subsidies; who knows how much covert subsidies have gone into wooing the plant to locate there.

The glass in your next car may come from here.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/10/26/a-chinese-billionaire-is-staking-his-legacy-and-thousands-of-american-jobs-on-this-factory-in-ohio/

andres3 · October 2016

stever said:
How the American Brands Perform in Car Reliability (consumerreports.org)

For purposes of this discussion, I guess it helps that the worst performing American brand is owned by an Italian company.

I rather enjoyed reading this, my favorite part of the article, the short bio on the author, copied here for your convenience:

Jon Linkov

I owe my career to two fateful events: my father buying a 1965 Corvette and my purchase of an Audi A4 rather than a Chevy Tahoe. The Corvette jump-started my love of cars, and the Audi led me to automotive journalism, track days, and amateur car repair. In my free time I cycle as much as possible, no matter the season.

andres3 · December 2016

Is this thread dead?

berri · December 2016

maybe the better topic is avoiding Chinese

anythngbutgm · February 2017

http://www.bmwblog.com/2017/02/16/bmws-spartanburg-plant-nations-top-automotive-exporter/

berri · February 2017

...and I think Camry is one of the highest, if not the highest, US content vehicles.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2017

If NAFTA is revoked, this "border adjustment tax" invoked and more spending/fewer taxes goes into effect, the Feds will have to raise interest rates---all this will lead to a stronger dollar and U.S. exports will drop like a rock.

Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

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