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Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,301
    edited February 2017
    S&P, but not Dow Jones. I cannot personally remember consistent gains in the Dow Jones in such a short period of time as the past three months.

    Know also, that inauguration day back in Hoover's day was March 4, not January 20.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    edited February 2017
    Clinton was president under the largest surge in the Dow in modern history (by far) starting 1/20/1993, but the all time record holder is Calvin Coolidge--which I suspect neither you nor I would remember!

  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,301
    edited February 2017
    I actually am somewhat of a fan of Harding, who was succeeded by Coolidge. The guy is the Rodney Dangerfield of presidents. I remember seeing a pic of him on a cereal box when I was a kid and I'd heard of presidents around him, but never heard of him. He had the shortest presidency in the twentieth century, even shorter than Ford, and actually accomplished a lot of what he promised, but is remembered mostly for Teapot Dome, of which there is no evidence he knew anything about it and which didn't come out about his Secretary of the Interior's nefarious oil dealings until after Harding died, Harding's rep also took a dive for the book "The President's Daughter", written a few years after his and his wife's deaths, stating he had an illegitimate daughter. This story was confirmed by DNA testing in 2015. Honestly, I hadn't believed the story until then. Absolutely amazingly to me, Harding died in 1923 but his mistress died in Oregon in 1991 and his daughter died there in 2005. (Harding and his wife had no children of their own.)

    Most historians thought his wife burned all his presidential papers, but they were stored in Ohio and not available to study until the mid-'60's. Historians who've read his papers have come away with an improved opinion of him.

    To me, interesting overview of Harding's presidency, from a latter-day standpoint:

    https://fee.org/articles/the-strange-presidency-of-warren-g-harding/

    20th Century U.S. history class over, sorry! LOL
  • berriberri Posts: 10,166
    edited February 2017
    Oh I recall Coolidge, Harding and Hoover - the big market build up, huge discrepancies between the 1% and everyone else, isolationist policies and trade wars. Next up was the big Depression. Not forecasting, just noting the irony right now.

    Perhaps the next comparison is Nixon and the war on the press.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,301
    edited February 2017
    There was what some call a depression in 1920. Apparently the post-WWI economy wasn't what the post-WWII economy was relatively quickly. Under Harding, employment improved significantly. I don't believe what happened in 1929 would happen again, though...many more checks-and-balances now. Of course, who knows. As stated, I am sheepish about a correction. In fact, I had something akin to a bonus in early December I wasn't expecting. I could take it in Dec. or Jan. I had already maxed out what I wanted to put in my 401-K for last year which would automatically start over again in Jan. I decided to take it in Dec.'s pay without any 401-K coming out of it, thinking 'cash is king'. We'll see how smart or not smart that was, LOL.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    Just remember the old adage: "In a bull market, everyone is a genius".
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    I think we are diverging too much into "specific" politics and current names and we should probably stay on course with American economics in a very general sense. References to history seem harmless enough, and references to the history of the auto industry are particularly welcome.



  • berriberri Posts: 10,166
    OK - tariffs on Mexican cars and parts will hit D3 hardest and like the transplants decades ago, Japan Inc. will overall benefit from it in the auto sector.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,301
    Shifty, WTH happened? Can you delete all but one of my posts above? Thanks!
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,301
    I ask because I don't know, but are there any Japanese nameplates assembled in Mexico, or minimally, utilize significant Mexican parts in cars, wherever they may have final assembly?
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,192
    I've always said that trade protectionism would backfire. It looks like we may be able to see that experiment play out assuming some of the stated policies are actually put into effect.

    My prediction is that a) It won't help any jobs in the US; and b) It will backfire and hurt our economy big time.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,301
    edited February 2017
    Ohio and Michigan autoworkers already seem to have benefitted from some cancellation of plans to invest in Mexico by the D3. Investments are being made in U.S. plants instead. There's no bad in that.

    Of course, tarriffs haven't happened yet.

    A level playing field helps, of course.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490

    Ohio and Michigan autoworkers already seem to have benefitted from some cancellation of plans to invest in Mexico by the D3. Investments are being made in U.S. plants instead. There's no bad in that.

    Of course, tarriffs haven't happened yet.

    A level playing field helps, of course.

    I haven't seen any evidence of that. From what I've read, cancellation plans were already in effect in 2016 so that Ford could build EVs. Perhaps what you mean is that some existing jobs will be retained as a result, and that may be.

    Corporations do whatever they want. They don't listen to presidents They do what's best for them and their stockholders--one way or the other they'll look out for #1, you can be sure.



  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,301
    edited February 2017
    Jeep is investing in Toledo and Michigan plants; press release in January.

    http://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/detroit-auto-show/2017/01/08/fca-invest-1b-michigan-ohio-plants-confirms-jeep-pickup-grand-wagoneer-wagoneer/96319702/

    Not specifically auto-related, but steel plant in Steubenville, OH reopened a month or so ago and is producing steel, first time since 2009. That's all good for that area of the state.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    edited February 2017
    Those are all tax-incentive deals. Basically, the taxpayer funds the corporation. Also the "new" jobs are based on a two-tier salary system, so yeah, there may be 2000 new jobs in 2020, but they'll pay a lot less than the old ones.

    Anytime I hear about going back "to the good old days" I'm suspicious of a shell game going on. I think to enter the future, the auto industry needs to think about the future---and obviously that means higher fuel efficiency, more EVs, more hydrogen cars, more efficient plant operations.

    Poor Steubenville.... if ever there was a victim of corporate plundering, that town was it.



  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,301
    edited February 2017
    I'd say Youngstown much-more than Steubenville--Steubenville is smaller but being a river town was hurt by the end of steel. Even small gains are good, I mean--these are all things that weren't happening here a year, two, three ago. There's no bad in any of that.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    edited February 2017
    Hard to say. Giving people unrealistic expectations is sometimes more cruel. No one's going to build new coal plants or steel plants or 1965 Mustangs anymore. Robots, electric cars, increased plant efficiency, clean energy---this is the real world right now. What people in those depressed areas need to do is move, however they can. I'd rather see giving them assistance to do that, or even public works, than these last couple of decades of empty political theater. Go where the jobs are, not where they were.

    I mean, even in your optimism, will Detroit ever be Motor City again? Pretty unlikely. But one day it could be something else.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 48,236
    I'd like to see some gains in other places too. For two reasons: prosperity is as concentrated today as wealth, and we're pretty much full out here now B)
  • MichaellMichaell ColoradoPosts: 124,385

    I mean, even in your optimism, will Detroit ever be Motor City again? Pretty unlikely. But one day it could be something else.

    I read a great story about a new company in Detroit called Shinola. They manufacture personal goods (watches and leather goods, mostly), and are proud to be based in Detroit, using local labor (imported Swiss watch parts, however).

    Fairly expensive, but I like the story the website tells about the city and the company.

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    2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2014 MINI Countryman S ALL4

  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,192
    Pittsburgh was a filthy nasty steel town and yet seems to have rebounded to a very nice and new-tech city. No reason why with a little time it couldn't happen to Detroit.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,301
    edited February 2017
    I believe people often stay in an area for solid reasons. I'm just one guy, but you literally couldn't pay me to move to FL, NC, CA or any of the other "must move to" places. And I've been to 'em all. But then I make a good living where I live and the cost of living is reasonable. For me, crowd avoidance is a must, LOL.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 48,236
    I suspect having a family makes it harder to move. Replacing one job becomes replacing two, it is never fun to uproot kids, and moving isn't cheap. Being single, I'd be open to living most anywhere, for the right salary B) Even the heckholes can be OK with enough compensating factors, a big part of a place is what you make of it, and nowhere is perfect.
  • berriberri Posts: 10,166
    Today the country is so mobile. Pretty good chance if you have a couple of kids in good colleges, they will end up dispersed. Good friends often get transferred as well. But if you live in an area that you like and life is going well, nothing wrong at all staying put no matter where it is. People overate weather - it comes and goes.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,301
    edited February 2017
    When I see someone whom I know who passed in my hometown, and was a good person who did well career-wise and family-wise, and I see from their obit that they were born in that same town, I always think, "There's something to be said for that". That is not saying they never travelled anywhere. They chose to live where they grew up and where apparently they felt they could contribute back.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 48,236
    Other than doctors or successful educators etc, I don't see a ton of that in the smallish town where I finished my childhood and where my mother still lives. The real go-getter careers just aren't there. And it's not for a lack of a local talent pool - quite a few have gone on from the town to marked success in many fields, including a Nobel Prize winner. They just have to move to a city to make it happen.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,301
    edited February 2017
    Funny you say that. I just read a few days ago that a guy two years ahead of me in high school is way up in the echelon at NASA now. Bill Mitchell, famous for decades at GM Styling grew up in my hometown, and George McGinnis, not famous by name, was from my town and engineered Space Mountain and had a career with Disney. John Dean (Watergate fame and in the news lately too) and David Soul (actor, Starsky and Hutch) both had parents who lived in our town when I lived there. And our town was not a suburb but somewhat remote. I attribute it all to Thiel College which has been there 150 years. I can't think of another reason why.

    The people I mentioned earlier weren't necessarily movers-and-shakers, but maybe engineeers, tool-and-die makers, draftsmen, foremen at a plant, that kind of thing. Not showy people but successful. I admire that for what it is.

    My dad used to always say, "There's money in this town, but a lot of people don't show it". I'm reminded of a nice fellow pretty well-known in town, bachelor, who worked in Human Resources for the railcar builder in our town. He lived in his parents' old home, on a nice, shady, brick street on the east end. Always drove two-door Chevys, Malibus and Caprices, with blackwall tires, LOL. When he died a few years back, he left something like $15 million to the college and town. I figured he was comfortable, but not that much. :)
  • fintailfintail Posts: 48,236
    edited February 2017
    The smallish town where I lived has a community college, but nothing more. Not bad for what it is, but not a 4 year school. Like many smaller towns in the PNW, it has also been hit hard by the decline of the logging industry, although what is left of it is still a lifeblood in the town. It was a booming prosperous place 100 years ago. Just as many areas of the upper midwest/rust belt have de-industrialized, it has happened out west, too. And I think there are even less plans to remedy that than have been made to remedy the rust belt issues.

    Sounds like the benefactor wasn't a complete miser anyway, at least he wasn't buying blackwall Chevettes :)



  • berriberri Posts: 10,166
    Kent, OH - Is that the location of Kent State University?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    Oddly enough, yes it is.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,301
    edited February 2017
    It sure is. The events of May 4, 1970 took place one mile from where I live now. Kent State is the second-largest university in Ohio, although our kids didn't go there. :)

    My wife and I have long-joked that there are more old hippies per square mile here than anywhere else we've ever been. I've heard people call here "The Berkeley of the Midwest", LOL.

    My wife is originally from Frankenmuth, MI and as I've said before, I'm from about an hour-and-a-half due east of Kent; Greenville, PA.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,301
    Here's an article with a picture of Bill Mitchell and George McGinnis, both from my small hometown, when they actually had a chance to meet up once:

    https://www.mouseplanet.com/7105/Looking_Glass
  • berriberri Posts: 10,166
    I'm doubting anywhere in Ohio can have as many old timer hippies as the far flung portions of New England and the Pacific Northwest and northern California. You also need lots of VW buses and Subaru's B)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    edited February 2017
    I remember when Scion first came out with their xA and xB. They developed this entire new line as a "youth product" but the majority of buyers for the boxy xB and xA were retirees and yes, old hippies. These little haulers were cheap to buy, extremely reliable, 30+ mpg on fuel, and easy to climb into and get out of. And they hauled a lot of stuff.

    These were the first "crossovers" (sorta)--another trend that American automakers got into a bit late in the game.
  • MichaellMichaell ColoradoPosts: 124,385
    berri said:

    I'm doubting anywhere in Ohio can have as many old timer hippies as the far flung portions of New England and the Pacific Northwest and northern California. You also need lots of VW buses and Subaru's B)

    Boulder, CO has its fair share, as well.

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    I think most of the Boulder hippies got priced out. Boulder is now the Dubai of the Rocky Mountains.
  • MichaellMichaell ColoradoPosts: 124,385

    I think most of the Boulder hippies got priced out. Boulder is now the Dubai of the Rocky Mountains.

    Oh, they've got money. Just kept the wardrobe.

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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 23,696
    edited February 2017

    My wife and I have long-joked that there are more old hippies per square mile here than anywhere else we've ever been. I've heard people call here "The Berkeley of the Midwest", .

    I would have guessed Yellow Springs. But the college failed years ago and some may have moved on. The college was reconstituted a few years back, but I'm not sure about the population.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,192

    I remember when Scion first came out with their xA and xB. They developed this entire new line as a "youth product" but the majority of buyers for the boxy xB and xA were retirees and yes, old hippies. These little haulers were cheap to buy, extremely reliable, 30+ mpg on fuel, and easy to climb into and get out of. And they hauled a lot of stuff.

    These were the first "crossovers" (sorta)--another trend that American automakers got into a bit late in the game.

    Yes.
    I remember for many years that Chrysler supposedly had invented the minivan. Except that VW had a small van way before that. Three rows, sliding door on the right side, rear liftgate. Sure, basically a beetle with a boxy body, but it's not like Chrysler was anywhere near first.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,192

    I think most of the Boulder hippies got priced out. Boulder is now the Dubai of the Rocky Mountains.

    If Boulder is priced out then San Francisco certainly is as well.
  • berriberri Posts: 10,166
    Oh, they are north of SF in weed country up there ;)
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,301
    edited March 2017
    Well, there were Chevy, GMC, Ford, and Dodge passenger vans back then too, but they got big and Chrysler was the first to make a sensibly-sized, FWD van. I give them the credit.

    Boy, I, especially, would not wanted to have been involved in a frontal accident in any of those early vans, VW, GM, anybody, back then.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 23,696
    I recall the credit to Chrysler was for engineering a van that drove like a car and still had all the room and utility. I remember that lots of women starting driving them around because of their driving and ride characteristics.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    tlong said:

    I think most of the Boulder hippies got priced out. Boulder is now the Dubai of the Rocky Mountains.

    If Boulder is priced out then San Francisco certainly is as well.
    SF is a mess IMO. 4th worst traffic IN THE WORLD--it's a beautiful city but more like a toy city that some rich guy would buy for his kid at Christmas. You can "do" San Francisco in three days, tops.
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 11,028
    Traffic all over the bay area is a mess. I had a Summer Internship job in the East Bay area in 2001. I sometimes had to drive around while on the clock, and I got paid something like .385 per mile, so I didn't mind the traffic as much while I was being paid by the hour as well, but to get to and from work was another matter.
    '16 Audi TTS quattro 2.0T, '15 Audi A4 quattro 2.0T, '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion AWD
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,192

    tlong said:

    I think most of the Boulder hippies got priced out. Boulder is now the Dubai of the Rocky Mountains.

    If Boulder is priced out then San Francisco certainly is as well.
    SF is a mess IMO. 4th worst traffic IN THE WORLD--it's a beautiful city but more like a toy city that some rich guy would buy for his kid at Christmas. You can "do" San Francisco in three days, tops.
    I kind of agree. The geography and limited bridges pretty much hose the traffic for everybody. And the costs are out of control, which is reflective of how much of the country's economy is coming out of that one area spread from San Francisco to Silicon Valley. And for me, the weather is too dank in SFO to be enjoyable. I do like a bit of heat during the summer.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,192
    Well I just received my CR annual auto issue today.

    CR, criticized by many as biased in these forums in years past, has the Cruze as the highest overall rated Compact car, and the LaCrosse as the highest rated large sedan. The Buick Regal is the highest rated entry/premium car, tied with the Audi A4.

    A really improved showing for GM from say 10 years ago, good job to them!
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,301
    edited March 2017
    I thought I read the Impala was rated the highest for large sedan.

    One thing about the Cruze that has me a little perplexed, although we are delighted with ours so far--it shows only 'average' customer satisfaction per CR. I wonder how much of that might be related to the stop-start feature. I'm used to it now, but one does it feel it come back on. Somewhere I read, can't recall where, that it was the smoothest whatever-magazine had ever tested. I'd hate to feel the worst!

    I've mentioned it before, but my Cobalt from 2008 was the most reliable, cheap-to-buy, and cheap-to-operate car I ever owned. I still own an '09 for my daughter. Matter of fact, for road/tire noise, both our Cobalts are quieter than either our new Cruze or our '11 Malibu. I do think in the rush to eliminate weight since then, soundproofing has come out. The ignition switch fiasco was handled poorly along the way, but I never worried about having the issue in either of my cars.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 48,236
    I seem to be able to hear 4cyl BMWs restarting from a block away. 4cyl Audis and MBs are noticeable too, but 6cyl cars seem to be a lot quieter.

    My car has it too, but as a warm diesel doesn't seem to "crank" like a gas car when warm, it's a pretty instant starting procedure.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,301
    edited March 2017
    I don't feel the car stopping at all, but you get a slight nudge when it starts back up. My older daughter said that bothers her--but she has a PT Cruiser, so what's she talking about, LOL.
  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 12,280
    I don't even notice stop-start in the 2er, it fires instantly.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2014 M235i; 2009 Cooper Clubman; 1999 Wrangler; 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i

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